User talk:Williamborg/archive

Older discussions archived here. Everything except vandalizm will be saved.

I changed the name of your article to Prillar-Guri, Pillar-Guri is a mis-spelling. The sources are also quite certain she played a ram's horn, not a lur. -- Egil 16:57, 28 Mar 2005 (UTC)

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Works for me. Your analysis that the story makes the best sense as a product of the Norwegian national romantic period seems correct and I'll incorporate it.

See you also added excellent material on Norwegian weights and measures. Any chance you can explain the Norwegian tax assessment of land in terms of 'hides' and 'skins'? (Williamborg)

Sorry, not much other than that there was a tax value which decided how much tax should be paid anually. For agriculturual areas the tax typically was an amount of butter - presumably the hides were for forests and hunting grounds? -- Egil 18:05, 29 Mar 2005 (UTC)

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List of country names in various languages

I am certainly not the "founder" of the List of country names in various languages and I hadn't even looked at it in quite a while, however, I assure you the English country names contained in it are in English and not in Latin. Pasquale 16:34, 1 Jun 2005 (UTC)

On the other hand, if it was the List of European regions with alternative names that you were referring to, which I did indeed start, then I do understand what you are referring to, i.e., names of Swedish regions such as Bahusia, Blechingia, Dalecarlia, etc. The reason why the English names for these regions are given in a Latinate form is that those were the names already in use in the English Wikipedia, something that I am not responsible for. The English name has to be clickable, therefore the name already in use in the English Wikipedia must be used. You would have to ask the person who set up the articles on Sweden and those Swedish regions (presumably a Swede) why he or she used those Latinate forms in English. My assumption is that that is the official English style used by the Swedish government. Pasquale 16:45, 1 Jun 2005 (UTC)

It was the List of European regions with alternative names. Your answer makes sense and helps - although it leaves editing the Wikipedia rather clumsy since it is hard to match with general literature in English. Thanks - Williamborg 01:23, 2 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Hello. Are you talking about the changes in the article of the Northern Seven Years War (I did change many names to English titles)? First of all I want to say you did a good job of merging the articles and about writing it in the first place. I also liked the other historical articles you have written. --Fred-Chess 00:13, 3 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Correct & greetings. See you’re from Malmø – members of my line lived there until in 1657. So we were ‘almost’ neighbors. In this case I am interested in understanding why the convention of using the Latinate names for Swedish provinces was chosen – when there are more commonly used English terms. Any insight would be appreciated. Williamborg 03:18, 3 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Didn't notice your reply until now. Now I'm putting it on my watchlist though.

The convention of the names where perhaps a choice made by User:Mic who is not active anymore. I just assume that those are the English names. I have had a quick look here Wikipedia_talk:WikiProject_Swedish_provinces but am now forced to read it, and perhaps you'd be interested too. What are the commonly used english terms then? If there are more commonly used English terms, we should move the articles to those titles. We just did this to Skåneland, by the way.

--Fred-Chess 20:41, 3 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Some thoughts

This issue goes beyond place names to include King’s names. The use of the Latinate form in English writing for Swedish terms is a puzzling (and confusingly inconsistent) practice. For example the List of European regions with alternative names suggests using the Latinate Scania for the Danish, Finnish, Swedish and Norwegian “Skåne”.

Polling a series of geography & history books (all published in English), one finds:

• A History of Norway by Karen Larson, Princeton University Press, New York, 1948 uses Gustaf Vasa, Gustaf Adolph and Skaane
• Sweden and the Baltic, 1523 - 1721, by Andrina Stiles, Hodder & Stoughton, London; 1992; ISBN 0-340-54644-1 uses Gustav Vasa, Gustavus Adolphus and Skåne
• The Struggle for Supremacy in the Baltic: 1600-1725 by Jill Lisk; Funk & Wagnalls, New York, 1967 uses Gustavus Vasa, Gustavus Adolphus and Scania
• The Northern Wars, 1558-1721 by Robert I. Frost; Longman, Harlow, England; 2000 ISBN 0-582-06429-5 Gustav Vasa, Gustav Adolph but then uses Scania
• History of the Norwegian People by Knut Gjerset, MacMillan Company, New York uses Gustavus Vasa, Gustavus Adolphus and Skåne
• Admiral Thunderbolt by Hans Christian Adamson, Chilton Company, Philadelphia, 1958 uses Skaane
• South Norway by Frank Noel Stagg, George Allen & Unwin, Ltd., London, 1958 uses Gustav Vasa, Gustav Adolph and Skaane
• West Norway and its Fjords by Frank Noel Stagg, George Allen & Unwin, Ltd., London, 1954, uses Gustav Vasa, Gustav Adolph and Skaane
• The Heart of Norway by Frank Noel Stagg, George Allen & Unwin, Ltd., London, 1953. uses Gustav Vasa, Gustav Adolph and Skaane
• Scandinavia; An Introductory Geography, by Brian Fullerton & Alan Williams, Praeger Publishers, New York, 1972. uses Skåne
• Scandinavia; at War with Trolls by Tony Griffiths, Palgrave MacMillan, Australia, 2004 ISBN 1-4049-6776-8 uses Gustav Vasa, and Gustav Adolph
• “A Revolution from Above” by Øystein Rian and Nils Vilstrand, Odense University Press, Denmark, 2000, uses Gustav Vasa, and Gustav Adolph
• “Urban Development in the Alpine and Scandinavian Countries” by E.A. Gutkind, The Free Press, New York, 1965, uses Gustavus Vasa, Gustavus Adolphus and Skåne

So it is pretty much a matter of taste. I have two recommendations, in the order that I’d prefer following:

1. Leave well enough alone. If you find “Skåne” and think this might mislead someone, revise it to “Skåne (also Scania)” the first time it appears in an article.
2. And lacking agreement on that approach, we could contact the Svenska Utrikesdepartementet (Swedish Ministry of Foreign Affairs) and ask what they use for their style guide when writing about Swedish provinces in English.

Best regards - Williamborg 14:28, 4 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Nice to see such a well reached reply.

I will use the Latin terms when I know them, and call them "English". Sometimes I don't know the Latin term, and will then use the Swedish one. The Latin are neutral and are obvious to pronounce in English. I mean that we will avoid the Båhuslen/Bohuslän issue. Naturally the English language doesn't use two words for one thing. And also english people don't know how to pronounce å ä ö, and Latinized terms avoid this.

--Fred-Chess 16:51, 4 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Gallery on User:Agtfjott

I'm going to add galleries on my user page to keep track of uploads to wikipedia. Probably I'm going to add images there before they are added anywhere else. Agtfjott 07:03, 27 August 2005 (UTC)

Photostuff

Cleaned up some stuff on Commons:Category:Norway. Slowly I get to the point where it is possible to figure out what photos exist and which are missing. Those I moved around are now sorted on muncipality if known and possible, then I tried to streamline sorting on function. Sort of. Hopefully nothing is missing but I did find some pictures in categories far from where they should hav been. Agtfjott 23:03, 1 September 2005 (UTC)

apoligice etc

Hi, my apoligice if it seemed i was critizing you. I know that you do have knowledge of the subject, and encourage you, with all respect, to contribute. I really do think you should say if you don't think it is NPOV -- and even more! Because if you don't tell what you think is not NPOV, I can't address it.

Of course you are qualified to contribute! If nothing else, then as a foreign reader! Our audience :-)

Ps. You probably don't have to mark copyedits as "major". I just think that with copyedits that really improve an article (such as yours), I don't want to miss them by mistake. Maybe it is just my personal opinion though.

--Fred-Chess 15:08, 6 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Many thanks!

Impressive rewrite on the Northern Seven Years War.. I mainly translated what I found in the Swedish Wikipedia, in quite the poor way! Glad to see someone filled in the blanks and expanded the heck out of that article. Much kudos to you sir!

Mceder 03:32, 11 July 2005 (UTC)

Thanks for your kind words. You'd done an excellent job and my changes were minor, but I never mind positive feedback. Williamborg

Difference between English and Norwegian text

Hi - could you have a look at the discussion page for Akershus Fortress. Ulflarsen 13:14, 14 July 2005 (UTC)

Took a quick look at it and added a few words - see if they help. This Akershus writeup deserves some further enhancement, but that will have to wait.Williamborg 01:44, 18 July 2005 (UTC)

NLCA and ELC same thing

Norwegian Lutheran Church of America was redirected to ELC because it was the same group they just changed their name after WWII unless you know of some source that actually indicates that the ELC was formed out of a merger between NLCA and other groups it is the same group and should be listes as what it was lasted called prior to mergering in ALC

Excellent site. I've forgotten my original source - perhaps the book by Hong-Sherley which I'd borrowed - showing the importance of citing reference, which I didn't. I'm willing to accede to your change since I don't have the original source handy.

I'd rather appreciate it if you had an identity so that one can communicate directly. Anonymous changes always leave me concerned since vandalism is usually anonymous. And assuming an identity on Wiki really still leaves you virtually anonymous – it just lets others understand your interests and gauge your commitment to quality work. And since you’re obviously serious, you would be a valuable addition. Williamborg 01:13, 15 August 2005 (UTC)

And when you redirect, please go back and hit "what links here" so that you can correct all the links. I just did that for LCA, but the person who does the redirect should take that responsibility. Thanks Williamborg

Muncipalities in Norway

Thanks for the feedback! It just irritates me that no-one seems to upload images from local places. And as I do live here I sort of should do something about it...

But that said, my spelling is rotten in english so feel free to correct me if I've write something stjupid! ;) ---User:Agtfjott

Just remembered, Stabel in Sør-Aurdal. One of the founding fathers at Eidsvoll. Those are important and should be included among important residents from the different muncipalities. Agtfjott

Strongly appreciate those photos. Hope to get there some day - and helping on the Wiki pages helps to decide what is interesting.

You, like most Norwegians, write English very well indeed. I think it is only the generation schooled before the Second World War who weren't necessarily proficient in English. Your schools do very well.

My problem is locations. For instance Vang is both a municipality in Oppland & a historic area in Hedmark. Sometimes it is hard to sort which is which. So watch for errors introduced by misunderstandings of Norwegian geography & history.

Best regards - Williamborg 02:21, 22 August 2005 (UTC)

Thanks! There are a number of muncipalities with similar problems. Not to mention smaller locations.

Which makes me remember Scandinavia Minnesota and Sven & Oles...

Agtfjott

Stave churches

Thanks for your message. Does that apply only to proper names, or to all Norwegian article-titles? In this case, the subject is stave churches rather than a proper name (at least, that's the impression I got from the article Grip stave church, and the external link). I'd be more than happy to lend a hand sorting out that set of articles, once I know what the consensus is. --Mel Etitis (Μελ Ετητης) 17:29, 25 August 2005 (UTC)

Stone churches

Started on a list of stone churches but this should probably be organized in a completdly different way. I have a contact at Hadeland Folkemuseum which probably knows a lot more. I wrote on article Tingelstad old church mostly to attract interest, it will be interesting to see what's happening. Agtfjott 23:17, 27 August 2005 (UTC)

Question on Tingelstad old church

Excellent pictures and article. This is a valuable new series!

Question about Tingelstad old church

You indicate Tingelstad old church (Tingelstad gamle kirke), was built around the 11th century. In English the 11th century is named by the end year. So the 11th century is the period from 1001 to 1100.

Then you state, "Some scholars believe it could have been built 100 years earlier." That would be in the period from 901 to 1000. The earliest serious conversion efforts occurred when Olaf Tryggvason (969–1000) arrived back in Norway in the autumn of 995 and at once set about the conversion of the country to Christianity at the very end of the 10th century. Oppland & Hedmark did not convert and begin church building until Saint Olaf(A.D. 1015-1021) converted them.

So I wonder if the text should read Tingelstad old church (Tingelstad gamle kirke), was built around the '''12th''' century?

Jepp. I messes with your centuries, like all over here. Dating of the church goes from 1090-1220 and it seems like everyone just guesses. I really don't know a lot about them, but hopefully other do. Agtfjott 01:31, 28 August 2005 (UTC)

My spelling are rotten after midnight! Minor typos.. He he...

Btw, There are some examples that points to the possibility that there were a large number of christians before Olaf missionary-with-a-sword II would so kindly ask the remaing to convert to christianity.

Also, thanks for the nice summary note about the tent houses!

Agtfjott 22:59, 28 August 2005 (UTC)

You a Norwegian, by any chance?

But if not, how did you get your heavy interest in Norw. matters? I just got curious... :) --Wernher 22:26, 28 August 2005 (UTC)

Alas, I did not have the good fortune to be born Norwegian. But I do hope to visit next summer. The best way to prepare for a trip is to study the region. And for me the best way to study is to research & write. Thanks for asking - Williamborg

Well, in that case I bet you must be one of the most learned folks in the world regarding Norway and Norwegian matters---with the possible exception of a couple of university professors in Nordic studies at a few universities in the U.S. Midwest (the "Germano-Scandinavian" parts of the U.S.; I myself have a lot of relatives there, whose ancestors emigrated from Norway in the 1880s). Cool!

--Wernher 13:32, 30 August 2005 (UTC)

I did my undergraduate work at St. Olaf College in Minnesota & have good reason to suspect the professors of Nordic studies know a great deal more Nordic history than I, but your kind & courteous comments are appreciated. And I share, in a mirror fashion, your good fortune – I have cousins in Oslo, Hedmark & Oppland. Even though 3rd generation American, interest in Norway remains strong. Tusen takk! Williamborg

National Merit Barnstar

Country-related work & Category: Geography The Barnstar of National Merit may be awarded to an editor who contributes significantly to expand or improve Wikipedia's coverage of any given country. It may also be awarded to those who create a particularly fine article regarding geography. This barnstar was proposed by Redux on February 23, 2005, and was designed by Zscout370.

Just wanted to add to the ramblings, I'm so extremly impressed to! And yes, I've did mention Williamborg in discussions with people responsible for Kulturnett.no! Agtfjott 07:42, 31 August 2005 (UTC)}}

It is quite an honor, especially coming from those who have made major contributions themselves.

But now it is time to get back to work, no?

Tusen takk. Williamborg

Member of the constitutional assembly in Norway, 1814

Went hunting for a good site about the Norwegian constitutional assembly and found Eidsvill 1814. The interesting part is the members because they are listed with whom they represents and where they lived, thereby making it possible to list them in the muncipalities articles.

I added a link from Sør-Aurdal to a stub article about Hans Jacob Stabel. I'm not sure how such an article should be formatted, especially since it seems like it is not a good idea to make info boxes. Some of the partisipants allready have articles because of their great work in other areas. For example Metternich.

Any ideas about a standard layout?

Agtfjott 09:58, 30 August 2005 (UTC)

This is an important topic. I agree it would be productive to work on the individual participants.

Norway in 1814 does a fairly good job of providing an overview, so we can probably dispense with improving the general discussion for now, although I’ll dig out my copy of Wergeland’s “Norges Konstitutionshistorie” and see if there is more that might be worth covering.

As for format, your initial approach looks fine. Perhaps we should pick famous participants to see what an article on them contains. That might inform the format for other articles.

Williamborg 02:28, 31 August 2005 (UTC)

WikiProject Norway

Added the thoughts on members of the constitutional assembly in Norway, 1814 to the "History" section of Wikipedia:WikiProject Norway. This type of topic probably should be captured there once we reach agreement so that we have a generally available record. Williamborg

Gjøvikbanen

Hi Williamborg!

Glad to hear that you liked the Gjøvikbanen article. Gjøvikbanen is the only railway line to Gjøvik. It has at times been proposed to axe the line north of Jaren, but fortunately, that has not come to pass. Sjakkalle (Check!) 08:42, 1 September 2005 (UTC)

In the article about Lunner the text reads The Gjøvikban and Bergensban rail lines pass through the municipality. Gjøvikban sounds awfully german and does not sound Norwegian at all. I'm not even sure it is an accepted form. perhaps Gjøvikbane but the normal form is Gjøvikbanen. Agtfjott 18:56, 14 September 2005 (UTC)

You presume too much

Revert! you say in the edit summary of your recent change to the Glåmdal article. OK, I will accept your instruction to "revert" – though it is the article which reverts (to its former state), not the writer.

It is a Landscape, not a district!! However fond you may be of this nonce creation (unsupported by any external authority that I can discover) of a new Wikipedian meaning of the English word "landscape" to denote an area or district of Norway, is it really necessary to be so attached to this invention that you insist on a crude reversion without even considering the external link I added to the page. Or is it because the Norwegian-language article on Glåmdal does not even mention the word "landskap" (although it does talk about "Distriktet Glåmdal") that you swept it away?. Et landskap kan være et distrikt says the article at no:Landskap, so why the double exclamation marks in your edit summary. If you want to use the Norwegian term "landskap" in this particular meaning, no problem – but use it in Norwegian, linked to an article explaining its meaning to speakers of English. Why invent a new English meaning for the nonce simply because "landskap" and "landscape" (a word taken into English from Dutch) share an etymology (a very imperfect guide at any time to present-day semantic reference)?

Please do not revise without reading carefully (including links). Rather a cheek of you to presume I haven't, isn't it – or have you installed spyware on my computer which tells you what I have and have not read, though it is hard to imagine how even that could tell you how "carefully" I had read. I can tell you that in the past week I have read all that I can find in the Wikipedia concerning the use of the English word "landscape" to stand for the Norwegian word "landskap" in the sense of "district, area, part of the country", and I consider it to be a misuse of English. I also noticed during the course of my careful reading how another contributor's questioning on a discussion page of this strange use of English was totally ignored. Be assured that I shall continue to read carefully, and to choose my test revisions just as carefully. -- Picapica 20:55, 19 September 2005 (UTC)

Williamborg have to answare for himself but the Norwegian article about landskap is slightly unprecise. The use of the word landskap to describe a district is more or less out of use. Distrikt is in use for a general region and could be describing Glåmdalen but is generally taken as a hint to the size of the area and the fact it is not accurately described. Valdres and Land is a distrikt.

Landskap is often used in art and in some old travel books about an area, often in a very stylish language. Present day use is most typical what you see in front of you (if you are at an elevated point).

Agtfjott 09:58, 20 September 2005 (UTC)

Have returned, appropriately chastened for my overreaction to what you clearly intended as constructive editing. I’ll work harder to restrain my sense of ownership/irritation when something I contributed or otherwise feel ownership for is constructively modified.

I need to realize that someone who suddenly appears without having previously contributed in the area and extensively edits existing text rather than contributing new can also make useful contributions.

In the end what matters is that we collectively construct as accurate and useful summary of the world as possible.

Please accept my apologies if you were offended. Williamborg 21:41, 14 January 2006 (UTC)

Image copyright non-problem with Image:Stabkirche_Lom_Norwegen_1.jpg

Thanks for uploading Image:Stabkirche_Lom_Norwegen_1.jpg. However, the image may soon be deleted unless we can determine the copyright holder and copyright status. The Wikimedia Foundation is very careful about the images included in Wikipedia because of copyright law (see Wikipedia's Copyright policy).

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Please signify the copyright information on any other images you have uploaded or will upload. Remember that images without this important information can be deleted by an administrator. If you have any questions, feel free to contact Carnildo or ask for help at Wikipedia talk:Image copyright tags. Thank you.

Photo was originally uploaded from German site since I was unable to link it from the German site directly. The source of this photo is http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bild:Stabkirche_Lom_Norwegen.JPG.

The source indicates, "Dieses Bild wurde unter der GNU-Lizenz für freie Dokumentation veröffentlicht.

Es ist erlaubt das Bild zu kopieren, verbreiten und/oder zu modifizieren, unter den Bedingungen der GNU-Lizenz für freie Dokumentation, Version 1.2 oder einer späteren Version, veröffentlicht von der Free Software Foundation. Es gibt keine unveränderlichen Abschnitte, keinen vorderen Umschlagtext und keinen hinteren Umschlagtext."

Translating a portion, "This picture was uploaded under the GNU Free Documentation License. The picture may be copied or modified under the terms of the GNU Free Documentation License, Version 1.2 of a later version..."

The GNU Free Documentation License (GNU FDL or simply GFDL) is a copyleft license for free content, designed by the Free Software Foundation (FSF) for the GNU project. It is the open content counterpart to the GNU GPL. The current state of the license is version 1.2, the official text of which can be found here.

Hence this version is valid if the original license for the German site is valid. Williamborg 16:09, 29 January 2006 (UTC)

Gudbrandsdal or Gudbrandsdalen

Some points makes me wonder why I'm speaking like I do...

• Historic districts are very troublesome. They tend to move over time. Be very carefull to use whats seems to be called landscapes now and don't use the old amt! They will bite back.
• Picapica and a note about "avoid clumsy wording" seems to make sence to me. His first idea to rewrite the names seems allthough a bit radical to me.
• Definite article.. Forms involving -a can most of the time be rewritten into -en. I also have a vague recall of someone who said -en could be dropped when used in english. It is not always so with -et. Sørlandet for example. I suspects I only partly remembers why this is like this. Please check this out as I don't remember much of it.
• Be carefull when you rewrite names, they could move! Oppland and Opplandene isn't the same. The last one is the old amt consisting of Telemark, Buskerud and half of Oppland if I remember correct. It also depends in which historic era your maps are printed.
• Usually Østerdalen as an area isn't named as Østerdalene. I can't give a good reason why. Langfjella can be called Langfjellene if your address is Majorstuen in Oslo. :)
• There are a number of troublesome names on the list Districts of Norway. Lofoten, Ofoten, Salten, Vesterålen (?), Toten, Viken, Fosen, Haugalandet, Jæren, (Nord-/Sunnhord(a)land que?)

— John Erling Blad (no) 03:23, 30 January 2006 (UTC)

Moved to Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Norway since it is a major contribution to the discussion there. Williamborg 14:50, 30 January 2006 (UTC)

Archive copy of Slash and burn agriculture article

Slashing-and-burning in Finland in 1892

Slash and burn agriculture (also known more neutrally as shifting cultivation or swidden-fallow agriculture) is an agricultural system widely used in forested areas. Although it was practised historically in temperate regions, it is most widely associated with tropical agriculture today.

More text archived as comment below.