Talk:Vanniyar/Archive 2

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Archive 1

Archive 2

Archive 3

Archive 4

Please remove section Malayaman and kadavas from this article

The section Malayaman and kadavas need to be removed. The section Malayaman and kadavas should go to article Vanniar (Chieftain).

The palli changed their caste name to vanniyar in the 19th century only. So Malayaman and kadavas are clan names around 10th to 13th century. This article is about palli who changed their name to vanniyar. I respectfully request the editors of Wikipedia to remove section Malayaman / kadavas and move it to Vanniar (Chieftain).

Educational References by reputed university have been provided below

A History of India

By Professor Peter Robb

https://books.google.com/books?id=GQ-2VH1LO_EC&pg=PT249&dq=palli+vanniyar&hl=en&sa=X&ei=FnniVJffIJPSoASysILYCQ&ved=0CCMQ6AEwATgK#v=onepage&q=palli%20vanniyar&f=false

The Pariah Problem: Caste, Religion, and the Social in Modern India

By Rupa Viswanath . University of Columbia

https://books.google.com/books?id=QnbeAwAAQBAJ&pg=PA273&dq=palli+vanniyar&hl=en&sa=X&ei=FnniVJffIJPSoASysILYCQ&ved=0CEMQ6AEwBzgK#v=onepage&q=palli%20vanniyar&f=false

Landscapes of Urban Memory: The Sacred and the Civic in India's High-Tech City

By Smriti Srinivas. University of minnesota

https://books.google.com/books?id=RmOvKsagbAgC&pg=PA287&dq=palli+vanniyar&hl=en&sa=X&ei=FnniVJffIJPSoASysILYCQ&ved=0CEkQ6AEwCDgK#v=onepage&q=palli%20vanniyar&f=false — Preceding unsigned comment added by Nambudiri 1961 (talk • contribs) 23:24, 16 February 2015 (UTC)

https://books.google.com/books?id=OcEM2IsnA1AC&pg=PA278&dq=palli+claim+kshatriya&hl=en&sa=X&ei=oXHlVLyKJMXvoASDk4GICA&ved=0CCoQ6AEwAg#v=onepage&q=palli%20claim%20kshatriya&f=false

Ritual, Caste, and Religion in Colonial South India

edited by Michael Bergunder, Heiko Frese

https://books.google.com/books?id=g5dHEQ6nWAcC&pg=PT8&dq=palli+claim+kshatriya&hl=en&sa=X&ei=oXHlVLyKJMXvoASDk4GICA&ved=0CC8Q6AEwAw#v=onepage&q=palli%20claim%20kshatriya&f=false

Castes and Tribes of Southern India, Volume VI of VII

By Edgar Thurston

many of the sentences in this article need to be corrected/removed. The palli changed their name to Vanniyar in the 19th century and now claim Kshatriya status. Please revert the article to Feb6 version. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Nambudiri 1961 (talk • contribs) 06:23, 19 February 2015 (UTC)

https://books.google.com/books?id=8Czd7xXIf3MC&pg=PA90&dq=palli+untouchables&hl=en&sa=X&ei=WYTlVKOFL8TaoASp74LgBQ&ved=0CE8Q6AEwCDgK#v=onepage&q=palli%20untouchables&f=false

The Burma Delta: Economic Development and Social Change on an Asian Rice ...

By Michael Adas  University of Wisconsin.

many educational references have been provided to clearly indicate the actual status of Palli. The article should clearly mention that Palli were low caste workers and have no connection to ancient vanniyars. I respectfully request senior editors to review this article and if more information is required I can provide those. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Nambudiri 1961 (talk • contribs) 06:40, 19 February 2015 (UTC)

This has been an ongoing issue with the article. I don't think we can actually remove those sections because both Burton Stein and Noboru Karashima are respected academics. Karashima clearly equates the Palli with the Vanniyar, unless of course we are misquoting him (I cannot see the source); the Stein point is potentially more ambiguous but we really need to see the Stein source itself, rather than quote McGilvray second-hand.

At the end of the day, we have to be neutral and that means showing all valid opinions. Of course, if far more scholars support one opinion than another then we should balance things accordingly. Certainly, this might mean merging those sections into a more general, rounded discussion of the history of the names. I think we need sight of the Karashima and Stein sources, so I would be extremely please if anyone happens to have them and is prepared to email me a copy of the relevant pages. - Sitush (talk) 15:34, 19 February 2015 (UTC)

I would like to respectfully make the following points.

1. The palli caste changed their name to Vanniyar only in the 19th century. There is no historical proof to link palli with vanniyar. Burton Stein just mentions about vanniyar. There is no mention that ancient vanniyars are Pallis.

In Peasant state and society in medieval South India Written by Burton Stein Oxford University Press, 1980 - History - 533 pages. Clearly mentions that Palli are peasants and also makes special reference as vanniyar of later times.

https://books.google.com/books?id=F-HSAAAAMAAJ&q=palli+vanniyar&dq=palli+vanniyar&hl=en&sa=X&ei=akTmVPraFInYoAS3w4LYDg&ved=0CBwQ6AEwADhu

More educational reference. The Modernity of Tradition: Political Development in India By Lloyd I. Rudolph. University of Chicago.

Please read from page 49

https://books.google.com/books?id=7guY1ut-0lwC&pg=PA51&dq=palli+social+status&hl=en&sa=X&ei=vkXmVID3B4HwoASlkoHQDg&ved=0CDoQ6AEwBjgU#v=onepage&q=palli%20social%20status&f=false

Lloyd I. Rudolph. University of Chicago clearly mentions that Palli are just trying to connect themselves to ancient vanniyars. Malayaman and Kadavas should be moved to article below. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vanniar_(Chieftain)

Also there is no page or link to Nooboru karashimas article. There is no referece which can be seen any where which clearly states that Pallis are the ancient vanniyars.

I kindly request senior editors and Sitush to move the malaiyaman and Kadava to below article. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vanniar_(Chieftain).

Nambudiri 1961 (talk) 20:44, 19 February 2015 (UTC)Nambudiri 1961

Like I said, I am not doing anything until I have seen the Stein and Karashima sources. I don't deny that the preponderance of opinion seems to be that the two communities are distinct but I also cannot deny that there appear to be some excellent authorities who think otherwise. If someone else wants to remove the information then there is nothing to stop them from doing so but please bear in mind that I will quite probably revert them because we have to assume that the statements reflect the sources until proven otherwise. - Sitush (talk) 12:30, 20 February 2015 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 25 April 2015

This edit request to Vanniyar has been answered. Set the |answered= parameter to no to reactivate your request.

61.17.17.4 (talk) 13:07, 25 April 2015 (UTC) S.S.Ramasamy padayatchi

Not done: as you have not requested a change.
If you want to suggest a change, please request this in the form "Please replace XXX with YYY" or "Please add ZZZ between PPP and QQQ".
Please also cite reliable sources to back up your request, without which no information should be added to, or changed in, any article. - Arjayay (talk) 13:13, 25 April 2015 (UTC)

Kadavas

I need a Proper Explanation for the removal of kadavas section from the article (Prem) 07:25, 8 May 2015 (UTC)

You have been getting one, as you well know. The problem is, the same difficulty is arising at several articles. See Talk:Kadava dynasty for one thread about this - in which you are involved. - Sitush (talk) 08:11, 8 May 2015 (UTC)

And Talk:Sambuvaraya. - Sitush (talk) 08:14, 8 May 2015 (UTC)

Key point is Palli community started calling themselves as vanniyar only in late 19th century. Many references have been provided. Addditional ref below

Dr. Balasubramanian from university of madras has explained clearly how Community of Palli started creating a false caste history.

Social and Economic Dimensions of Caste Organisations in South Indian States University of Madras, 2001

https://books.google.com/books?ei=GHlNVaCHC4zaoASW1ICQCw&id=wG3aAAAAMAAJ&dq=Palli+caste+tamil&focus=searchwithinvolume&q=Palli

Sangitha rani111 (talk) 03:10, 9 May 2015 (UTC)sangitha_rani

I have been reading yet more sources about this issue but I cannot incorporate this one (Balasubramanian) into the article because I can only see a snippet view. Using snippet views is deprecated because we do not usually have sufficient context. No need to panic, though, as there are plenty of other sources out there (as you know). - Sitush (talk) 09:18, 9 May 2015 (UTC)