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Maybe someone should add his name in Hebrew at the beginning, seeing as he's an Israeli and is quite famous in Israel. What does his name work out as in Hebrew?
Does anyone have a reference for the comment that Randi's comment about a scientist shooting himself appeared in the Toronto Star? I've never seen this before, and can't find an on line reference anywhere.
You can find it on Lexis/Nexis or a mircofilm copy of the newspaper.
Because some people don't believe something is real unless it is on the Internet, I have posted the full story at this site...
Uri Geller has said that he is related (through his mother) to Sigmund Freud. Does anyone know the specific relationship? (preferably with names!) -- Someone else 01:15 21 May 2003 (UTC)
This page is so non-NPOV, I don't even know where to begin.
"Note that Geller's initial answer ("a triangular shape on the top") can apply to many different common objects (e.g. a house), and his second answer ("I swear to you I drew a pyramid") is somewhat in contradiction with that, but still sufficiently compatible for the suggestion to work."
Just to pick something at random- Is this article about Uri Geller? Or is this article about attacking Uri Geller's claims?
Is the author of this article willing to commit to NPOV?
-- LionKimbro
No, NPOV does not mean that you have to defend pseudoscience. However, it does mean that we express a neutral point of view.
Here it is: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/NPOV#Pseudoscience
There's two major things I think would be good to do here:
1. Make an entry on spoon bending, and lend discussion on the validity, or non-validity, of spoon bending to that page. Spoon bending is something I have seen several people do, including close friends, and it is something I have done personally. While I am not convinced it is super-natural, I do believe it deserves a little more attention than has been given to it. People thought that lifters were a hoax. But then, they turned out to be real. But after still more time, it turned out to have a normal, mundane, scientific explanation. (Ionic breeze, or something like that.) But the people who said it was a hoax were wrong- something actually was happening. I believe this may be the case with spoon bending. It deserves fair treatment. In that page, I would include a link to: http://www.fork-you.com/
2. Write to encompass the world of perspectives about Uri Geller. Just because people aren't editing the page, doesn't necessarily mean that the globe's concensus is that your interpretation of Uri Geller is correct. I myself, don't really know whether Uri Geller is intentionally tricking people or not. I think he's honest. However, the article writes as if he's clearly dishonest. While I could be convinced that he is dishonest, the form of the article is hardly persuasive, and furthermore, hardly reflects a neutral point of view.
Do you agree with the general approach? (That is, seperating spoon bending from Uri Geller, and then talking about Uri Geller exclusively, on this page, and spoon bending on the other page.)
-- LionKimbro
Hello?
-- LionKimbro
Actually, citations are not necessary to establish a Neutral Point of View. If citations are provided, they need not be from a "reputable" source.
I do not believe that you are making an effort at NPOV, and I do not believe that you even believe in NPOV. This is very frustrating.
LionKimbro 07:18, 25 Mar 2004 (UTC)
(Done. LionKimbro 20:13, 28 Mar 2004 (UTC))
LionKimbro & Eloquence, I am the main author about a person who makes similar claims as Uri Geller. You may want to compare the article. See Sathya Sai Baba Andries 22:05, 25 Mar 2004 (UTC)
Well, here- let me whip out some claims. I've bent a spoon before. I've seen my best friend bend all sorts of cutlery, right in front of me. Cutlery of my own choosing. I've seen lots of people bend cutlery. I've seen people get half-way. I've read Michael Chrichton's autobiography, where he talks about himself bending cutlery, with pretty much the same instructions that I followed. (In his own words.) My friends learned how to bend cutlery at a Ren Fair. They say that there were hoards of people bending cutlery at the Ren Fair. I learned from my friends. (I was only able to do it completely once, but I got half-way probably a dozen times.) Now there's this lady over at http://fork-you.com/, who say's she's bent cutlery. And she's got instructions, again, more or less the same as the one's I've followed, and Michael Chrichton has followed. Follow the links list on her page, and you'll find hoards of other people who claim they've bent spoons.
If I want, at any time, I can pick up my phone, make a few phone calls, and find new people who've bent spoons. I can find kids, adults, poor, rich, whatever. This is not an uncommon thing.
So, what's your deal here. You going to open up the page, or not? Because this ain't NPOV.
You can say it's "fraud." You can whip out ol' Randy. (Our attitude? It's basically: Imagine an Objectivist Ayn-Rand worshipper. Now imagine that this Objectivist made a challenge: "Million dollars to the first person who can prove, to my satisfaction, that Objectivism is wrong." How far are you going to get? Is anyone ever going to get that million? Of course not.) You can say me and the rest of the spoon-bending world is part of this massive elaborate hoax, or massive self-deception, or whatever. You can think whatever you want to think.
But if this is Wikipedia, then the game is Neutral Point of View.
You do not seem to be interested in Neutral Point of View. You seem faaar more interested in, "Let's grab this piece of land, and keep it as the last best defence that Rationalism has against the world of insanity."
So I ask you: Are you REALLY interested in NPOV?
This page is an NPOV conflict. No efforts have been taken to remediate the situation.
LionKimbro 20:13, 28 Mar 2004 (UTC)
Here's another one for you.
http://www.fmbr.org/editoral/edit03_04/edit2-oct03.htm
I mean, I can fish these things out all day, if you like.
LionKimbro 20:32, 28 Mar 2004 (UTC)
Okay- I'll rewrite the page to reflect what I believe to be NPOV, and then we can work it to reflect a neutral point of view.
Eloquence, this response of yours is much fairer.
However, I still disagree that Uri Geller is necessarily a fraud because you believe that there is a proper materialist explanation for what he does. Even if there is a materialist explanation that is correct, it does not mean that a person is a fraud.
If Uri Geller honestly believes he is who he claims he is, and if he honestly believes that he has super-natural powers, then he cannot (in my book) be a fraud. A fraud is a con artist, a huckster. You have to intentionally be setting out to deceive people. If you didn't, then every member of every religion that happens to be incorrect would automatically be a fraud. Newton would be a fraud, because his understandings of Mechanics were incomplete. Consider that perhaps Uri Geller may understand things about human beings that you and materialist/scientist cultures do not? Would that make you all frauds? I know that you believe that Uri Geller is intentionally setting out to fool people. But can you conceive that maybe you are wrong, and that Uri Geller might only be ignorant, but not a Fraud? (However, I do not necessarily believe that he is ignorant, either. I lend more credit to his claims than you do.)
This discussion of spoon bending furthers my belief that we need a seperate article on it, incorporating your views on what is happening, instructions on how to bend spoons, perhaps pictures of bent spoons, etc., etc.,.
LionKimbro 06:35, 31 Mar 2004 (UTC)
Another thing I just thought of. Let's suppose that it is just fracture mechanics. (Which I know little about.) Let's suppose that is the case.
Then, materialists/scientists should be able to, given spoons, create repeatable experiments in bending spoons. They should be able to say, "These spoons will bend, these ones will not." Then they should be able to follow a standard procedure, and bend spoons just like the people who think they are bending spoons psychicly.
Just like the fire walkers: Scientists figured out how fire walking worked, and then regularly repeated the show on their own.
It should be the same way with spoon bending. If there is a spoon that a scientist cannot bend, but that a alleged psychic spoon bender can, then we would have a good way of detecting whether the scientist's understanding was incomplete, or if it were the alleged psychic's understanding that was incomplete. Just a thought.
-- That thing about the pokemon yungera causing a lawsuit was only an urban legend, at least the pokemon article says so. One of the articles is false.
LionKimbro 06:41, 31 Mar 2004 (UTC)
this article is VERY NON-POV, it assumes geller powers are fake from the start (not that iam saying they are real..) , the photo of geller is horrible and offensive
Hi ppl!
I am german and 2 hours ago we had an Uri Geller show on german television. Thats why i was looking for more infos and found this article.
One thing i dont like in this article is, it is always written, that HE is doing spoon or fork bending and that HE is repairing watches and so on.
This show on german TV was a little bit different, because the guests and the audience were doing these things.
Let me explain:
Moving the needle of a compass: It was done by some guests of this show. He was standing far away. Of course it could be a fake if the guests were having some magnets in their hands...
Spoon and fork bending: He told the guests, the audience and the ppl watching tv to take a fork/spoon and rub it with one thumb. So theres no big chance of manipulating the fork i took. So i started rubbing the fork with my thumb and got now a flat fork. Meaning the wave shape that the handle had had, is now nearly gone. It lays flat on the table now... Ok, that wasnt an expensive fork i used. And it was not a weak silver fork or an plastic one.
Repairing watches: They had a lot of not working watches in the studio and the audience brought some of their personal watches too. I own some pocket watches i have bought or got from my grandfathers. And at least 2 of them didnt work. So, in the middle of the show, i started to search these watches, found them, and, except of 1, they all are working now since 2-3 hours. The one that doesnt work, is a not mechanical one, where the battery is empty. So Uri Geller wont make a successfull career as a battery recharger.
Manipulating ppl to vote for 1 symbol: Ok, that is a nice one: This event was about that Uri Geller can manipulate ppl to vote for one symbol he chooses. That was a televoting. The symbols were a rectangle, a star, waves, a circle, a cross. Then he chooses one symbol, painted it, gave the envelope with the paper to the moderator of the show and tried to send the symbol to the audience and the tv watchers. So he had a very close look to the camera and tried to send the picture. I havent got any idea what it will be, but my mother called me and said, that she guessed, it will be the star.
And, 30 minutes later, when the televoting closes, it was the star which wins with around 37% of the votes.
Wow... Something that you have to know is that the moderator of that show is moderating a magazine called "Stern TV" on tv. "Stern" = star. And Uri Geller was in that magazine some month ago too.
So, all i wanna say is, that its not only him who is doing these tricks. It is too be done by the audience. Maybe someone wanna change this article and add this info too.
This article must be more centered. I deleted the text "one asked, for example, why, if Geller's talents were genuine, the Israeli government wasn't using him as a secret weapon to destroy crucial components in the weapons systems of the enemy countries encircling Israel? ". Obviously are different items. The text has come again.
Was deleted too a known testimony of broken glass through telepaty. Better delete all the entry and mark him as a big liar. Simple.
ok. there are still things missing but its almost finished: http://en.wikipedia.org/w/wiki.phtml?title=Uri_Geller/temp i think now it looks more NPOV, please comment, if there are not objections i will substitute(upgrade) the current main article - --Cyprus2k1 15:42, 8 Jun 2004 (UTC)
I much prefer the new article. It seems much more NPOV to me. User:LionKimbro
My comments on the new version (I haven't made any changes, for there are already plenty of cooks to this broth):
--Gary D 06:31, 18 Jun 2004 (UTC)
Those most recent changes seem to have been NPOV to me -- they were charges made by critics, not by the poser. And besides, how is it POV to say that he started as a stage magician? I'm going to revert the reversion. RickK 06:16, Jun 23, 2004 (UTC)
I think it's germane to a discussion of Uri Geller to state the fact that he began his career as a young nightclub and stage magician. Just as it would be germane for supporters of Uri Geller to state that he had begun his career as an experimental psychologist at Oxford, say, if such had indeed been the case.
It is germane to a discussion of parapsychology to state that apparently one branch of the Pentagon brought in the author of that Biblican deciphering book to see if he could help them find Osama bin Laden. It's possible to disagree with them for doing so, of course, and as soon as the knowledge of this leaked out most of the rest of the Pentagon quickly disavowed the meeting, but even the most hardened skeptic should, in good faith, report that it actually happened.
So, I feel, it's germane to paraphrase a critic who did indeed ask why Uri Geller, with his apparent wondrous powers, was not helping in the defense of Israel rather than bending spoons on American television.66.1.40.242 22:12, 23 Jun 2004 (UTC)
i propose again to substitute the current article with the new one. please comment, and change or discuss something you might think its incorrect on the new article.. - --Cyprus2k1 14:22, 5 Jul 2004 (UTC)
One thing that definitely would need to be changed in the new version is the tense. There's no reason to write most of the article in the past tense. Geller is neither long dead nor have the criticisms against him been invalidated somehow. Some sentences have also become rather awkward.Eloquence* 09:09, Jul 11, 2004 (UTC)
Okay, so we didn't exactly get a groundswell of support for the alternate article version, but you didn't all say it should be killed, so I phrased it in present tense to answer one objection and put it online to see what editing occurred in response. If it just irks everyone completely, well, that's what the revert button is for. I urge, however, that we at least give it a chance. --Gary D 01:31, 13 Jul 2004 (UTC)
Does anyone have a citation for the psi-claiming community opposing Geller? This edit, if it survives, will need substantiation and streamlining. --Gary D 06:22, Sep 10, 2004 (UTC)
Ok, i hate edit wars, so, im gonna revert the "IS a illusionist" thing back to what is was, those who oppose please discuss it here until there is some consensus, *Before* changing it again.
In my opinion, directly stating saying that "geller is an illusionist" is as POV as saying "geller is psychic"... , stating that "geller is a famous and CONTROVERSIAL ALLEGED psychic" looks much more neutral..
(btw, iam NOT a geller supporter (neither a geller critic))
---Cyprus2k1 09:21, 11 Sep 2004 (UTC)
Moriori, I would appeal to you to reconsider the approach to your recent edit of "illusionist" in the first sentence. Reviewing the page's edit history, you will see this article has come through much wrangling to strike something of a delicate balance. This article has not been given an uncritical pass; to the contrary, there is no shortage of critical views included in, and critical edits made to, this page in the past. I am now concerned about upsetting the apple cart and touching off a new edit war after a nice period of peace. --Gary D 09:29, Sep 11, 2004 (UTC)
Hayford Peirce 18:27, 11 Sep 2004 (UTC)
Opening paragraph: "who claim he is both charlatan and con-man."... what's the difference? Aren't these in fact the same thing? --Dan Huby 13:54, 30 Sep 2004 (UTC)
History :
Basically, Geller's extensive career has been summed up in this one sentence. "At the peak of his career in the 1970s he worked as a full time professional, perfoming for television audiences worldwide". This does not provide any details on what made Uri Geller really a household name, his performances on the BBC and David Dimbleby's talk shows, where allegedly hundreds of homes across Britain experienced metal bend.
Uri Geller currently involves himself in a great deal of charity work, I believe this deserves a mention on here as well.
This transcript probably shouldn't be included in the article at all, but rather than delete it I moved it close to the bottom of the article. Please go ahead and alter further. 2 Feb 06
I have added a disputed tag to the article, due to concerns raised by the user, Earthacademy (talk • contribs). — TheKMantalk 03:03, 26 February 2006 (UTC)
Rule one: if you don't understand a subject, go and study it. (Any moron, or intellectual bigot in this case, has an opinon, but those opinions are uttlerly worthless without empirical scientific study)
I work next to Uri Geller. HE IS THE GENUINE ARTICLE. He was and never has been a magician or illusionist.
He has GENUINE ABILITY.
Get used to it. You will be astounded too, when you discover this also for yourself, and will find yourself questioning any previous thought you had on the nature of humankind. It isn't pseudo or virtual science, its ACTUAL science. If you haven't met him and are just making opinions from sitting behind a laptop or watching television, again your views are not SCIENTIFIC, but purely ego based, and ultimately ignorant.
This information on WikiPedia serves only to deride Uri Geller from a ignoramus viewpoint. It is utterly biased and practically non factual.
EarthAcademy.org
Earthacademy.org - your first comment being how you know him personally and how his 'powers' are 'real' shows us all just how interested you are in a genuine NPOV article. Joey 06:18, 8 March 2006 (UTC)
FACTS ARE FACTS. and that's all that should be in a encyclopedia. Not endless bigoted drivel.
The biggest difference between myself and anyone here;
I actually went out to seek the FACTS.
Not gossip, heresay, 2nd hand opinions, Chinese Whispers, or bigoted nonsense.
To understand a subject; you have to study it.
I think I'm the most neutral and scientific here.
Its obvious this Wikipedia article was written through total bias towards the negative,
so you are left with 10% objective truth, 90% subjective trash.
Where have all the empirical truth seekers gone? Have IQ's dropped recently? Why don't you get the Nazi party to do the write up for the Jewish community? Or the KKK to write Black History? The Republicans to do the Democrats. Am I talking to a wall here?
I think the worst thing is, at the end of the day, Uri is genuine, and so this is an amazing event for the scientific community, and yet, is surrounded by the idiotic and envious. Gallileo vs. the Church? X-Men vs. the norms? Dolphins vs. Tuna? isn't it? :-)
My biggest problem with this article is its length. Firstly, this confers on Geller a level of importance that his career really doesnt justify and secondly it just creates more contentious detail that is material for edit wars. Cant we just simplify this?
Examples:
1. I see no reason why a discussion on possible ways how spoon bending may be carried out needs to be included. It is sufficient to say that magicians and skeptics of Geller's performance have demonstrated more conventional methods of achieving the same effect and that they accuse him of using such techniques.
2.Similarly, I see no reason for the transcriptions of the Gerry Ryan radio show or the lengthy Japanese final appearance. If there is a point to be made by these transcriptions then it seems to be lost in the detail and would be better summarised. This would also make it easier to ensure that the section in question is NPOV.
3. In general I think it would be wiser - particularly in the Controversy section - to simply list Gellers claims and the counter claims by his critics rather than dive into detail. Also there should be external references to techniques such as cold reading, misdirection, suggestion etc rather than attempt a description here.
As it is the article presents too many opportunities for the "woowoos" (fortunately in this text I dont have to be NPOV!) to criticise and perpetuate an endless edit war.
In contrast to the unnecessary detail regarding his "authenticity", not enough has been said about Geller's cultural impact. Surely the tone of the article should not be whether Geller is a fraud or a psychic but the fact that many millions of people (particularly in the 70s &80s) knew who he was and had a strong opinion on just that question. Prustage 22:06, 2 March 2006 (UTC)
People, you cannot see the wood for the trees.
The purpose of an encyclopedia is to educate and provide factual empirical TRUTHFUL data.
Not gossip or sensationalism.
Uri's website receives thousands of hits per day. It's not just the 70's 80's Again another assumption, as are most things written about Mr.Geller. You only ever hear about the egoistic critics, who are in the minority. The majority think much differently- depending on which cultures you are in. Especially it is wrong to keep viewing things from a U.S/U.K. perspective. That's a tiny part of the planet. Don't forget about Russia, China and Japan. Who hold a much different and certainly more educated view on these subjects.
The problem is not whether Uri is genuine or not, the problem is the left-brained idiocy and intellectual bigotry that still holds strong today, as it has always throughout history. Have you people not considered for a second that Uri may actually be genuine, and what that would entail? It would mean you whole safety comfort zone would be wiped out in an instant. You would have to face questioning your whole reality, and existence, and how you view nature and science.
The real issue is people facing their fears of the universe, and then taking it out on people who are actually giving you pointers out of your trapped mindsets. You have been successfully programmed to think in a limited way. Its up to you to break out of that mold, and the face the rejection and mockery or the moronic masses. Look to the minority, not the majority.
If you want someone to write Uri's information base, let it be me, and remove this non-scientific drivel that is contained there No matter what your limited minds may think, I am not biased. I seek empirical truth.
Please note that referring to people as having 'limited minds' simply because they disagree with you could be construed as a personal insult, and thus be a violation of policy. Continued conversation on this topic should not include ad hominem attacks and should actually address substantive issues rather than inflated and unverifiable antecdotal reports. Joey 09:39, 19 March 2006 (UTC)
Mr. Geller recently bought one of Elvis' houses for quite a sum, anyone having more info 'bout this? --Shandris 09:02, 16 May 2006 (UTC)
It appears he didn't actually get it http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/entertainment/5043572.stm
Why is there a link to Gallium at the bottom of this article? --Black Butterfly 15:20, 16 May 2006 (UTC)
How is this at all relevant? How is it any more important that other performances in the states? This should be removed, but I can't do it since some guy will revert it within seconds if I do it myself.
It really seems to me that the NPOV dispute was never solved. As a person just browsing through to find out who Uri Geller is, I really see that this is a very negatively-biased article. I don't have an opinion either way about Uri Geller or the validity of spoon-bending. Sure, anything's possible, but I don't really care. Just thought I'd throw in my two cents worth as an outside party... This really should be edited, though. I see that the debate has been going on for some time now, but it doesn't seem to me that the NPOV issue has been resolved. Vermi 20:46, 3 June 2006 (UTC)
I have news: the truth is bias. The holocaust article does not take a neutral view on whether it happened or not. Geller is treated remarkably well here considering the number of objective demonstrations of his fraud. If anything, this article is bias in favor of him through unreferenced statements like "there are still many people in the world who truly do believe he does have some form of psychic ability." I'd like to see these allegations referenced as highly as his criticism. Nazis either systematically murdered the jews or they didn't. Geller either has powers or he doesn't. The evidence points strongly one way, shouldn't the article? I am going to be bold and remove the NPOV warning.
Nbruschi 02:26, 4 June 2006 (UTC)
Neutrality isn't required in areas of widely-recognised historical fact. The holocaust article wasn't really a good choice for an example, since it is widely regarded as historical fact. While I agree with you that nonqualified generalisations should have references to back them up, I do not agree with your removal of the NPOV warning. As such, I am restoring it. Vermi 02:12, 8 June 2006 (UTC)
I don't see any problem - Geller has no paranormal abilities. The reality is that he is simply a showman and the article reflects this clearly. Simply that some people wish to believe him is no reason to declare the article NPOV - are we to label the article on Earth NPOV because of the flat-earth society? --Oscar Bravo 07:14, 23 June 2006 (UTC)
How about including some information from Jonathan Margolis' book, Uri Geller: Magician or Mystic?, (Welcome Rain, September 1999, ISBN 1566490251)? It seems pretty balanced to me.
The props weren't "switched" (Randi told in the 1993 NOVA Episode: "I was asked to prevent any trickery. I told them to provide their own props and not to let Geller or his people anywhere near them"). What I've read elsewhere: they were secured against manipulation, the film cans were wiped dry (to eliminate condensation water) and glued to the table. I've seen another excerpt of this show where Geller "accidentally" bumps the table to see which of film cans moved.--Tilman 15:20, 28 July 2006 (UTC)
In the history part is says "He is a vegan and speaks five languages, English, Hebrew, Hungarian, German and Greek."
What is the source of this? I am asking because I am Greek and Uri recently appeared on a Greek show and the only Greek words he did say was stuff like "thank you" and "hi" and everything else he said was in English. AcidArrow 14:58, 22 August 2006 (UTC)
Ok, here is a youtube link of the show http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zLgV5P-PmUE . Ignore the voice-over which is translating what he says in Greek and you can clearly hear him speaking english throughout the entire show. Also at around 1:30 he asks the host to tell him how "bend" is in Greek and then uses that. Even if he did speak some Greek and just chose to speak English because he is more comfortable with that you'd think he'd know some basic words without asking the host. Therefore I am removing Greek from the list of languages. AcidArrow 15:05, 22 August 2006 (UTC)
Uri Geller has been shown to be a fraud, so it's perfectly alright to view him in that light. No neutrality is violated, so the tag should be removed. Motormind 20:46, 27 August 2006 (UTC)
The idea that in the pursuit of a factual and objective article we are still entertaining the notion that Geller might be a genuine psychic is absurd. There are multiple instances of Geller being no more than a normal stage magician with better PR instincts and no verifiable instances of the performance of any supernatural acts. This entry is more generous than it ought to be, and certainly more than fair.sinisterdan 16:54, 18 September 2006 (UTC)
If anyone can justify (or use the whiff of authority) to restore the tag, please do.sinisterdan 16:58, 18 September 2006 (UTC)
Someone mentioned above they put a link to the metal gallium, since it literally melts in the palm of your hand (~303K) and could conceivably be used to make a spoon that would soften at a touch. Are you serious???? As soon as someone carries the thing, such as a stage hand, it'll melt right there. And make sure the stage lights aren't turned on too hot. Not to mention pure gallium would be prohibitively expensive. The idea is inventive, I'll give ya that. But I really don't think anyone would or could use such a bodgy technique. Jquarry 22:15, 18 September 2006 (UTC)
You recently reverted material that had been edited by myself and others (namely and ). This material was removed because it was largely irrelevant fancruft - in particular, the so-called Charity Work section. I'm sure Mr. Geller occasionally donates something to charity but is it really so significant that each organisation needs a line in an encyclopedia? Furthermore, the only source of the alleged payments is Geller's own website - much better would be a press release from, say, the British Red Cross that listed Geller as an exceptional contributor. Do you have anything like that? Finally, the whole thing is a bit fishy; most people are quite discreet about charitable donations, why is Mr. Geller so keen to publicise his munificience?
Unless you can come up with some good reasons why this material is notable, I would ask you to remove it. --Oscar Bravo 08:03, 30 October 2006 (UTC)
Dear Oscar,
Thank you for your message. I am SO sorry about this dreadful mistake. I only reverted the page to restore the booklist which 86.129.26.168 had removed. I split it into books by and books about . This is all I intended to do. I had added "Gellerism Revealed" by Ben Harris to the booklist and I thought this should not be removed. The British Library received their copy from me since it is a Canadian book and they didn't have a copy. I might give it to a few other libraries. By all means re-edit my revert as you wish. And when Mr. Geller next does some notable charity work, or speaks Greek, please let me know. Yours sincerely, Robert2957 14:13, 30 October 2006 (UTC)
If you type "leave you to your kismet" into the search engine on Geller's website you will find refernce to an extarordinary series of letters James Randi is supposed to have sent Geller. Does anyone know anything about this ? Did he really send these letters ? Thank you Robert2957 08:16, 2 November 2006 (UTC)
The opening section states categorically that Geller performed "magic tricks" rather than demonstrating genuine psychic powers. Many have claimed this, and they may well be right, but I think we should, in the interests of neutrality, leave it at something like "supposed paranormal powers" or the like.Davkal 13:55, 1 November 2006 (UTC)
Sadly I must say that this Wikipedia article is VERY biased. I don't know very much about Mr Geller, and (like so many others) I decided to read up on the subject on Wikipedia. I have been visiting Wikipedia regularly for six months now, and have come to identify well written NPOV articles. This article is well written... but it is not NPOV. As someone who had no prior knowledge of the subject matter it made me a "clean" subject in order to identify bias. The overall tone of the article is quite slanted against Mr Geller's claims, and although there is a lot of cited evidence supporting these points of view I believe that sections describing and discussing his claimed psychic abilities would be most welcome. The article does not adequately describe what he even does, it seems to be fully concentrating on debunking him. If Uri Geller is a fraud then the article would STILL need some discussion about psychic performers and thier claims, as well as the fact that science has not been able to debunk all such performances. Such examples can be found in the book "Supernature" by Lyall Watson. This article is very informative, and the people (or person) who wrote it has done an excellent job on what is there, and with only a little more work this article would truly be a benefit to the Wikipedia community.
Yours Sincerely,
DCR
I think my points were. 1. In a section deveoted to testing, the times when Geller was tested are much more important than various dates when he wasn't - nobody is tested all the time. 2. Randi hates Geller and has made it a central focus of his career to try to expose Geller as a fraud by fair means and foul. Why should Geller have anything to do with Randi or his test - why should anyone. Why should we assume that someone with Randi's track record of dodgy experiments, half-truths and no-truths, would be fair as sole arbitrer of the test outcome - something that is written into the rules of his $1m scam. The argument is also not ad hominem because of these points and because, as Ray Hyman, I think, has pointed out, it would not decide the issue one way or the other if someone managed to dupe Randi out of a million. Science does not proceed through bets. And 3. in a section about testing the actual tests done by the actual testers are much more important than the fact that tests have not been done by one particular person/organisation, i.e, Randi. Nobody can be tested by everyone. All three points though only made sense in relation to the testing paragraph as it was and not as it is now. And finally, what on Earth is "veridical worth of its merits" is supposed to mean.
I've made substantial changes to the litigation section. The main changes are that the word "unsuccessful"" has been replaced with "with mixed success". The reason for this is that Geller has won some of the suits filed. He won the one in Japan against Randi and he won one in Hungary against a newspaper which printed some of Randi's other claims. Others have also been settled out of court which is not always seen as unsuccessful. I have also removed a lot of unnecessary padding from the Japan section, and have added the London suit (which elicited an apology from Kurtz) to the Prometheus section. I have also provided a number of links to an article (non-Geller, non-CSICOP/Randi) which covers the whole issue.Davkal 12:16, 4 November 2006 (UTC)
I have changed the wording for the description of this vieeo since it doesn't show very much "clearly" at all. The analysis offered on the skeptical website also contains a number of inaccuracies including a total lack of knowledge about the function of the tendons on the back of human hands (they are at their most visible when the fingers are being lifted up, not when gripping pressure is applied downwards as in deliberate spoon bending). Hardly a smoking gun.Davkal 13:15, 4 November 2006 (UTC)
I have changed a few claims in the article about Geller's main critic's coming from the "scientific community" to the "skeptical community". There are several reasons for this. Firstly, the only source for this info is Skepdic website and the article on Geller: a) is written by a philosopher; b) has it's only quotes from critics coming from 2 magicians and 1 scientist with no track record of scientific investigations of the paranormal; and c)the only mention of science in the source document actually suggests Geller has support from within the scientific community - this is Milbourne Christopher's quote. Secondly, It may be that many scientists are in fact critics of Geller, but it is not clear that those scientists are critics qua scientists. That is, what does a geologist, for example, automatically know about the possibility of psychic powers in their capacity as a geologist. I think the answer here is "nothing at all" and so it is, in my opinion, wrong to stress the fact that someone is a scientist when their being a scientist provides them with no more knowledge than a lay-person. Davkal 09:13, 15 November 2006 (UTC)
They have, and it wasn't. Indeed, according to the Skeptic's Dictionary site's quote from Millbourne Christopher: ""Geller is at his ingenious best in laboratories where he is being observed by scientists who believe he has extraordinary ESP ability and think — without justification — that they have ruled out every possibility of fraud." This, I think, shows one of the double standards often used in the skeptical community: if scientists say they don't believe something then their status as scientists is treated as some sort of badge of infallibility for the type of reasons Oscar identifies above, but when they say they do believe something then they suddenly become bumbling fools and expert status passes to the magicians. Davkal 13:47, 16 November 2006 (UTC)
This discussion is similar to a "creationist" discussion. There is no scientific evidence to support any of these claims. Geller, like all the other magicians/psychics/mediums/etc have a vested interest in making it appear that they have special powers. They do their best to only submit to "testing" by people who are looking for proof of mystical powers, and so do not test thoroughly. If you want to believe in something, you will find a way to ignore anything that contradicts your desired belief. If you look at Geller analytically, you will see him for what he is. If a scientist where to offer valid evidence, other scientists, as well as corporations, would be rushing in to join in the new discovery. If someone uses flawed testing/analysis, they will be ignored as irrelevant. Zeke pbuh 17:30, 16 November 2006 (UTC)
None of that (even if true, which is doubtful) has anything to do with the points made and which led to the revisions to the article. That is, the only source provided for criticism is not a scientific source, but a philosophical/skeptical one. In addition the only mention of the word "scientific" in that source is a negative one about scientists' (lack of) ability to examine such claims. It therefore does not support the claim that many in the "scientific community" regard Geller as a fraud and, if anything, it supports the opposite contention. As things stand there are a number of comletely unsupported claims in the article that need to amended. Again. Davkal 19:08, 16 November 2006 (UTC)
I have removed the source, Skepdic, from the claim" Geller has numerous critics, including in the scientific community, who say he is a charlatan and a con-man." and restored the fact tag. The main reason for this is that the source simply doesn't back up the claim. That is, there is nothing there from the scientific community or anyone in it at all really, and the only comments about the scientific community suggests that Geller finds much supports there - it being left to magicians and philosophers (Carroll himself) to smell a rat here. There is possibly the implication in the source that Geller is a charlatan and/or a con-man but this is never stated and is hedged about with talk of some psychic feats like those Geller claims to do being done by magicians etc. In other words, Carroll simply does not come right out and say it and so it isn't a source for that claim either.
Re the source in general, Carroll says that Geller has lost all his lawsuits against his critics. This is false and I presume Carroll knows it. That is, Geller won his suit against Randi in Japan, he has won a suit in Hungary (I think it was Hungary), a lot have been settled out of court (which is not the same as lost at all), e.g, the one against Prometheus books, which was settled when Kurtz apologised to geller and changed the text of the book for future editions, so that can hardly be called lost. And, as Carroll also probably knows, almost none of the lawsuits Geller has been involved in have actually been about his psyhic powers, they have almost always been about defamative personal statements. Given that Carroll must know these things but has chosen to simply go along with the false "Randi" version of reality it is not really clear that this source can be trusted at all in this case.Davkal 14:58, 8 December 2006 (UTC)
You can't say - many people claim X is a conman and a charlatan unless you have someone saying "x is a conman and a charlatan". And even if you get one, Randi say, who does say this, you can't simply extend that to many others, say, the scientific community, without some evidence. The Carroll article actually suggests that Geller is supported from within the scientific community. That is the point of Martin Gardner's quote, which is the only time science is mentioned. If what you want to say is that James Randi thinks he's a con-man then say it. The sources simply do not back up the points you make. If you think they do then let the relevant sections be cited. The ones where, for example, Feynman says "Geller is a charlatan" or some such thing.Davkal 17:20, 8 December 2006 (UTC)
The sources simply don't support the contention here. I could write, "Geller has many supporters, including from within the scientific community, who feel his psychic powers are genuine" and attribute them to those sources with more justifcation. I also think that con-man and charlatan is overdoing it. Why not just setle for one since, as far as I can see, the sources use neither of those words. As requested, then, please offer some quotations here to back up your claims that you can find these things in the sources. It's all very well for you to keep saying that it's there, but when I look it (paranormally?) vanishes. Davkal 21:30, 8 December 2006 (UTC)
There are also vast sections of the article which have no sources. All manner of claims and supposed explanations are offered in the "stage magic" section without a source in sight. If critics have, for example, noted that Geller often turns his back on the audience then don't keep their names a secret. Tell us who said it and where.Davkal 01:57, 9 December 2006 (UTC)
There are several points re sources here. 1. If you want to say "numerous critics say geller is a "complete wanker"". Then you had better have at least one, if not two or three, crtics saying "Geller is a complete wanker". It is simply not enough to cite a few references that say "it is possible to acheive ejaculation through masturbation" which is what you currently have. 2.It it not enough that Geller used to be a nightclub performer to make the claim "originally a nightclub performer" appropriate. He also used to be many other things as well. Why choose one and not the other. That is why it was removed and replaced with paratrooper - neither is more correct so both have to go. When you understand the point you can remove "paratrooper". Davkal 02:09, 20 December 2006 (UTC)
No, it means quite simply, that a number of critics claim that Geller has no psychic abilities. The advantage here is that: a) it is true; b) it's not libelous; and) we have sources for it. Davkal 02:18, 20 December 2006 (UTC)
I'm saying: no sources have been provided for the claims as they stood. Of course I think "skeptics say he has no psychic abilities" is Ok, because that's pretty much what I wrote - something there are sources for incidentally, that's why I wrote it that way. What there are no sources for, as yet, is: "numerous critics, including some in the scientific community, say Geller is a con-man and a charlatan." The point is not whether Geller is likely to sue, but what we have sources for plain and simple.Davkal 02:58, 20 December 2006 (UTC)
For some uninteresting reason, this (along with other closely related articles in wikipedia) have been 'hijacked' by a small cabal of seemingly bitter old men who evidently have nothing to offer other than to vandalise, disrupt and attempt to twist articles to their own insignificant POV, further damaging the already strained reputation of Wikipedia.
A huge proportion of the 'sources' cited for the blatant attack material in this article are from dubious websites, (mainly hardline skeptic sites) which fail to provide any factual basis for the bad edits they accompany. And are NOT suitable nodes for encyclopedic information.
Furthermore, why has the POV tag been removed? as the article as it stands now is rabidly bias, POV and unbalanced.
10nn 08:12, 7 January 2007 (UTC)
In an earlier telling of the story, Geller claimed he discovered his abilities when he was first able to tell how well his mother had done at cards which was followed by errant wrist-watches.
Can anyone tell me what this sentence means? garik 09:39, 10 January 2007 (UTC)
It is suggested that Uri’s first encounter with his powers was when a spoon melted in his hand aged 3-4. This differs from Uri and Puharich’s account from the early seventies that suggested Uri first discovered his abilities when he found himself able to tell his mother how well she had done at cards. This was followed by errant wrist watches and lastly, Puharich suggests, metal bending. Uri’s own earliest accounts also seem to omit this early incident with the soup spoon. For example, in an interview with "Psychic" magazine in June 1973 Uri said: "Actually the first observable thing that ever happened to me wasn't cracking or bending an object, it was moving the hands of a wristwatch. This happened by coincidence in school, when I was about seven years old."
Someone deleted that part, does anyone want to interfere? http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Uri_Geller&diff=99729441&oldid=99590458 Someone also had the clip removed from Youtube, but just Google "Uri Geller caught" as it's too late and the clip was uploaded to many places. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 88.155.7.65 (talk) 14:29, 11 January 2007 (UTC).
Hi, at the moment there's no need to rely on websites such as youtube to hold the "incriminating" footage, as brought up by the second link to the website of the Keshet TV network:
http://www.keshet-tv.com/geller/lobbyvideo.aspx?MediaID=11531&CatID=1957&Level3=1969 (firefox incompatible link)
The video is legally held there for everyone to watch and even tho it's a bit blurry, in minute 04:07 it is clearly visible that uri geller moves a foreign object from his right hand to his left hand's thumb.
For anyone who insists on going frame by frame like I did, I suggest downloading the video from the Keshet website.
Is there any objection that I'll rewrite and supplement the information which was deleted as seen in http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Uri_Geller&diff=99729441&oldid=99590458 ?
Phantomentality 23:35, 11 January 2007 (UTC)
I placed the cleanup tag there because the section starts off talking about Geller causing shelves to fall off walls, then continues by mentioning that he can be seen "bending the spoon", and then concludes with Geller insisting that he caused the "shelves" to fall psychically. It looks like two different acts were adverdantly mixed into this passage. Is this passage talking about shelves, or spoons? Nightscream 22:11, 19 January 2007 (UTC)
I'm aware with Wikipedia policy that things should be kept neutral, but when it's obvious Geller is using simple magic tricks why should his paranormal claims still have any weight? —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Throw (talk • contribs).
Throw, am I right in thinking you responded to the article's lead section? As somehow implied by SJ, the lead declared Geller a total fraud whereas we only have two published incidents. I've just reworded the lead to reflect this. AvB ÷ talk 18:24, 13 February 2007 (UTC)
Whether Uri Geller is a fraud or not depends on what is meant by fraud. He bills himself as an entertainer and he claims to have no insight into how his purported psychokinetic abilities work. He doesn't guarantee that he will be able to bend any given object, and has on occasion backed out of demonstrations when he realized he was being set up. When he does fail, all he has to do is claim interference from some unknown source. Remember, if he doesn't know how his "powers" work, then he can never know what will stop them from working. Proving "beyond reasonable doubt" (a common legal standard) that he is legally defrauding people would probably be disastrous. However, public opinion is not a court of law. Based on Geller's unwillingness to participate in any demonstration that he does not completely control, one can infer that perhaps he is cheating. He could shut his detractors up for good if he could perform some feat that was unambiguously paranormal. Publicly putting a 90 degree bend in a randomly-selected structural steel I-beam girder fresh from the foundry would probably do it. Joel Blanchette 21:57, 13 February 2007 (UTC)
Joel Blanchette 22:02, 14 February 2007 (UTC)
I undERSTAND hwat u are saiyng but the rpboelm is that the tests suggestde by spepdics ARE NOT designed in such a way to test Uri gellar's abiliteis. the randi challegne forces him to control the powers in order to achieve a certain efect even though gellar himself has NUMEROUSLY claimed ON TV AND ON HIS LITERATURE to be only POSSESSED BY TH e power which is a spirit force that overtakes his body and alllows him ot exert certain feeats uchas telepathy of psychokenesis. his powers can ONLY BE tested using brain frequency evaluators suc as a MRI scan or a scientific appartus desigend to measure brain activity that can be worked theorhg the television so that tapes o g eller can be remviewed to see his his abilities deriving from the instances that you have given above. IF such as test was doning, then it would prove CONCLUSIVELY that gellar's powers are real and that the instances that he mistaked were not irrelelvent. Gellar WILL submi t o sech a test but it will have to be done USING REAL SCIENFITIC METHODS and not the tings that the skeptics come up with because this would be the only fair and logical way to test Mr. Gellere's Parnomal abilities. This information can be bclearly found on Uri gellr's age as well as on periodicals within the scientific comumunity. not only that Geller's abilities hae been proven mathematically numerous times and tjhis FACTUAL VERFICATION SHOUILD Be added into the article. cine the rlues perm. Smith Jones 22:17, 14 February 2007 (UTC)
ALL of it can be found on his website if YOU WOULD GO THERE AND READ IT. HERE a universlly-accredited scientist gives evidence on Uri GEller's powers. you have to click on the link. Also the movie what the bleep do we know aslo shows the his powers can only be nothing but real! quantum physicsts have done countles research on this. My statemnet "PROVEN MATHEMTIATCALLY" refers to the numerous mathematicsal proofs done by respected scientists it even shows here thate gellar has been able to duplicate his effect watch the video if you dont belive me. here is fruther proof of his abilities, where mind-energy researchers do an MRI test can that show how and if they exist and prove that uri gellers exerts a spiritual field that can do effects similar to that of mentalism. I have the periodoicals with me and i can scan them to the computer if you want to see them just tell me okay. information is avialabe that proofs these powers but skeptics do not want to see them and try to have them susppressed. Did you now that randi tried to urui geller shut down all the time? Its true. this information MUST be mentioned as SOON as we can verify it on the net. Smith Jones 03:36, 16 February 2007 (UTC)
what the hell are you talking about? Smith Jones 03:22, 17 February 2007 (UTC)
' "I tested Uri Geller myself under laboratory-controlled conditions and saw with my own eyes the bending of a key which was not touched by Geller at any time. There was a group of people present during the experiment who all witnessed the key bending in eleven seconds to an angle of thirty degrees. Afterwards we tested the key in a scientific
laboratory using devices such as electron microscopes and X-rays and found that there was no chemical, manual or mechanical forces involved in the bending of the key."'
Professor Helmut Hoffmann (Department of Electrical Engineering,
Technical University of Vienna, Austria)
"Through intense concentration, Uri was able to bend a 3/8" cold rolled steel bar under controlled conditions, as he rubbed the top of it with his forefinger. I was sitting very close to him during this experiment. On another occasion, a radish seed sprouted and grew 1/2" as he held it in his hand. I watched this very closely as well. "
Jean Millay PhD. (Saybrook Institute U.S.A.)
"Uri Geller was tested in my laboratory at UCLA. During the experiments in Kirlian photography and after hundreds of trials, he produced three extraordinary photographs in which flashes of energy were clearly visible. What wonderfully welcome sights they were! I have also tested Uri's watch-fixing and metal-bending abilities. He has demonstrated
these to me under controlled scientific conditions, in a most convincing manner".
Dr. Thelma Moss (Professor of psychology at UCLA)
'"Uri Geller, as a psychic genius, has been able to demonstrate the repeatability of controlled scientific psychic experiments. Thereby he has proved the reality of psychic phenomena (such as telekinesis, clairvoyance and telepathy)."'
Professor P. Plum, MD (Emeritus Professor of Pediatrics, University of
Copenhagen, chairman of the Danish Medical Research Council -
Denmark)
'"I have personally witnessed and experienced on two occasions the metal bending abilities of Uri Geller. These experiments were conducted under rigorous laboratory conditions. In these two experiments the thick steel rod I was holding and observing carefully bent, and continued to bend, in my own hand. One rod bent to 90 degrees during a period of
approximately six minutes while I was holding it. The other steel rod bent after Uri Geller stroked it and continued bending on a glass table without anyone touching it. The steel rods were provided by myself. I consider the Geller effect to be a phenomena which should be studied seriously by science. "
"A scientist would have to be either massively ignorant or a confirmed bigot to deny the evidence that the human mind can make connection with space, time and matter in ways which have nothing to do with the ordinary senses. Further, he cannot deny that these connections are compatible with current thinking in physics, and may in the future
become accepted as a part of an extended science in which the description 'paranormal' no longer applies, and can be replaced by 'normal'."
Dr. Kit Pedler, (Head of the Electron Microscopy department, University
of London:)
ONce again and it will add the things back but only tohave them REMOVED by bigots and vandsals. Smith Jones 03:08, 21 February 2007 (UTC)
It could be better IMO. The entire article is under one section, "Biography", that jumps from one subject to another with little coherence. Gazpacho 01:51, 26 February 2007 (UTC)
The opening section is now a joke. Even if Geller had been caught chaeting 75 thousand times it would not mean he had no psychic powers. In any event, where are the sources for this garbage. I have reverted to an NPOV version. Davkal 04:24, 27 February 2007 (UTC)
I'm sorry, I didn't realise that there was competition to make this the worst article on Wiki. The whole thing is just one spurious piece of nonsense after another interspersed with unsourced hearsay. Lets go back to the article as it was a few months ago and start again.Davkal 04:32, 27 February 2007 (UTC)
Whoever's been working on the article recently. Before changing it back (and still to some extent) it simply read like a hatchet job. Almost every source for the article is from a sceptical website/publication. Almost every book about Geller listed is a sceptical hit-piece by one of his critics. There are numerous unsourced critical claims in the article. There are paragraphs and paragraphs dealing with what Geller's critics say. The start of the section about disagreement about measuring success is a good example. Two paragraphs are used to list just about every time Geller has supposedly failed to produce psychic effects. Where is the balancing list of the (alleged) succesful performances, e.g, a detailed summary of all the tests at SRI or something (that gets a few lines and is then immediately qualified by more critical claims). Where are the balancing comments by scientists who have supported Geller's abilities. I'm not saying we should present Geller as a genuine psychic, but what's currently there looks like someone has gone to Randi's website, or Skepdic, and taken what is there and rewritten it slightly. And that's never going to make for a very balanced NPOV article. Davkal 13:12, 27 February 2007 (UTC)
Even the first sentence says: "Geller [...] has drawn both fame and criticism with his claims to have psychic powers." How about, fame, support and criticism. Or how about just poviding a neutral introductory few lines befiore moving straight in with Randi's thoughts. In fact, the article at present could well be titled: "Randi's thoughts on Uri Geller".Davkal 13:20, 27 February 2007 (UTC)
The intro now ends with the claim "have accused him of using his demonstrations outside of the entertainment business to defraud people." I can't see how the source provided supports this claim. Firstly, Gardner is not mentioned, and secondly, there doesn't seem to be any accusation of Geller defrauding anyone.Davkal 12:07, 28 February 2007 (UTC)
The intro now ends: "These critics, who include James Randi and Martin Gardner, have accused him of using his demonstrations fraudulently outside of the entertainment business". Confused, and if not, wrong! It simply doesn't mean anything, and what it might conceivably mean is: a) wrong; and b) unsupported by the sources provided.Davkal 02:41, 4 March 2007 (UTC)
Yes, my objections are:
1. It is not clear what "using his demonstrations fraudulently outside of the entertainment business" means. What are they accusing him of? I don't understand what he is alleged to have done.
2. I can't find evdience of those words in the sources that are cited. In other words, the claim in the article seems to be much stronger than the sources. I checked the Randi source, and unless Randi says it in Gardner's book then Randi and Gardner don't both say it.
Can you provide the relevant section(s) from the sources verbatim here because I think the paraphrasing is wrong. They seem to be accusing Geller of serious wrongdoing and maybe even criminal activity and I simply don't believe that either Randi or Gardner has done this. As far as I understand it, their complaint has always been that Geller has merely fooled a lot of people into thinking he had psychic powers when he is probably just a magician.Davkal 14:12, 9 March 2007 (UTC)
I don't quite see the point about 6 figures in the quotes. But anyway, why not just end the sentence "...have accused Geller of fooling people with fraudulent demonstrations involving no genuine psychic abilities." Davkal 12:28, 10 March 2007 (UTC)
HEY! i just finished adidng a seciton about uri gellers' books [written by him] and it want sonwderin if anyone could agive me a link to ahte page that gives how to make the section properly> Smith Jones 21:18, 3 March 2007 (UTC)
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