 | This is an archive of past discussions about Theodor Herzl. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
“It is essential that the sufferings of Jews.. . become worse. . . this will assist in realization of our plans. . . I have an excellent idea. . . I shall induce anti-Semites to liquidate Jewish wealth. . . The anti-Semites will assist us thereby in that they will strengthen the persecution and oppression of Jews. The anti-Semites shall be our best friends”.
I read that this was a quote by Theodor Herzel. Does anyone know if this is true?
- I am quite sure he neither said nor meant it. It is absolutely out of character; Herzl was a man of grandiose visions, stressing the positive to the point of one-sidedness. One of the problems with these "quotes" is that they might be quoted as quote from somewhere else, and to find out you have to follow this chain up backwards to the original source, which is both tedious and difficult, and often impossible.
- He did say it. It's in his published diaries. One would need to read it to see whether he was serious, or if it was an outburst along the lines of, "This isn't working, I should do something crzy." He suffered from depression so an outburst is possible. 88.155.212.99 17:46, 19 June 2007 (UTC)
- Nonsense. Give the exact quote, with page, source etc., so others can check it. What Herzl has said was that he considers (I quote from memory) antisemitism a kind of "character-training" for Jews - which is in line with is tendency to always stress the positive and has nothing to do with the conspiracy-rant ascribed to him above. (Fuxmann)
- Theodor Herzl: Diary, Part I, pg 16. See also pg 68.
- More here: http://www.jewsagainstzionism.com/zionism/zanda.cfm 81.158.224.8 13:06, 27 August 2007 (UTC)Alice (I don't have an account, sorry)
- You find these "quotes" on the "Jews-Against-Zionism"'s webpage, but not on the places mentioned above in Herzl's diaries, which can be found on http://www.literature.at/webinterface/library/ALO-BOOK_V01?objid=12794&zoom=1&ocr=&page=16&gobtn=Go%21 (the original pagination on the bottom of the page differs from the digital pagination in the search mask) . Fuxmann 05:37, 28 August 2007 (UTC)
- I don't know if there was a typo or if the link is to the edited diaries or what, but I have heard from reliable and zionist sources that he said such things. Don't have any confirmation sources though, but If someone is better than I at searching The Jewish Press' archives, I believe there was an article last year on the subject.173.54.16.169 (talk) 01:48, 23 April 2010 (UTC)
- That's exactly what I mean: Somebody insinuates "somewhere, something, somehow..." and nonsense becomes truth or at least probability. Please check the German original. Fuxmann (talk) 13:57, 23 April 2010 (UTC)
"From April, 1896, when the English translation of his Der Judenstaat ("The Jewish State") appeared,"
- is it correct to say that the English translation was so important? I was under the impression that Zionism pre-WWI was mostly a German and Eastern European project. Dinopup 17:16, 13 Mar 2005 (UTC)
Would someone like to explain in what way Herzl was a "Wagnerite"? Tomertalk 01:31, 1 May 2006 (UTC)
Does anyone mention the relationship between Herzl and Cecil Rhodes? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 64.231.232.97 (talk • contribs) 00:57, 25 June 2006
It occurs to me that this article is leaving out a huge detail, namely, why did Herzl die at the age of 44? Was it by an accident, or was he murdered?
- The popular opinion is that he died out of depression after not succeeding to persuade neither the Turks or the Germans to give the Jews territory in Palestine. TFighterPilot 22:21, 29 June 2007 (UTC)
I was under the impression that the popular opinion was that he died because he had a weak heart and he insisted on working to hard trying to get his work done. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 173.70.48.216 (talk) 04:38, 28 July 2011 (UTC)
The Herzl timeline here is excellent and contains a good deal of detail on Herzls activity (prior to April 1896 the point at which this article currently dates his political work). Unfortunately there is nothing in the current article (or much in the Herzl timeline) about Herzls petitioning of the Rothschilds. eg.
"Originally he [Herzl] had hoped to influence the Rothschild family to support the building of a Jewish State, but when this plan failed he turned to the general public. Der Judenstaat, an elaboration of his Address to the Rothschilds [this is what originally appears in Hrzl's diary as ""Rede an die Rothschilds"], sets forth his proposal for a Jewish State." source
Previous petitions to influential families such as the Rothschild by Proto Zionist like Zvi Hirsch Kalischer were made in a similar vein. Is it possible someone can include some detail on this early work? —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 82.29.226.213 (talk) 22:34, 31 December 2006 (UTC).
Herzl is usually said to be born in Budapest but in this article, it says that he was born in Zemun. Does anyone has a source for that information ? Abrahami 22:55, 4 November 2007 (UTC)
- this is a misunderstanding. He was born in Pest, but his forefathers were born in Zemun. Added source from Jewish Encyclopedia and removed [citation needed]Hollomis (talk) 16:40, 1 November 2013 (UTC)
I find it quite odd that three languages are represented at this plaque, but not Herzl's own language. Harry Barrow (talk) 12:00, 26 February 2008 (UTC)
I removed the following statement from the article;
In 2006 the remains of two of his children were moved from Bordeaux, France, and placed alongside their father.<ref>Herzl's children reburied in Israel. [http://www.cjnews.com/viewarticle.asp?id=10234&s=1 Canadian Jewish News 28 September 2006]</ref>
The link is dead and the article name isn't given, so unfortunately I can't chase it down to see what it actually said. But I have stood next to Herzl's tomb on top of Mt. Herzl, and I can say definitively that there are none others around it- it is completely solitary. So even if his children were moved there, the wording would need to be changed so that it does not seem like they were buried directly beside him, because unless their graves are unmarked, I don't think that this was the case.
Of course, one other possibility does exist- the words on the tomb read just "הרצל" (Herzl), and nothing else. So could it be possible that the remains of more then one person from the Herzl family are interred within there? Somebody would need to clarify. Rudy Breteler (talk) 04:40, 7 April 2008 (UTC)
Yes, the cjnews link is now dead. However I Googled "Herzl Bordeaux" and found many others. The first two are http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/764120.html and http://www.jewishagency.org/JewishAgency/English/Home/About/Chairman/Archive/2006/sep25.htm. Both confirm the reburial of the children, and the second is by a participant to the ceremony in Bordeaux. As for the inscription, I would assume that it was made years ago when only the father was buried there, and that it was decided not to change it for the 2006 reburial of the children.
Perhaps you would like to reinsert the statement with reference to these links (or others which are still active) to replace the cjnews link. Dirac66 (talk) 16:24, 7 April 2008 (UTC)
Jenő Heltai (born: Eugen Herzl; 1871-1957), the great hungarian writer and poet was his cousin. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 81.182.236.34 (talk) 20:48, 4 August 2008 (UTC)
Theodor Herzl even offered his obviously literary gifted cousin, then still "Eugen Herzl", a job at his newspaper - which the ardent Hungarian nationalist declined. He did not want to write in German. Fuxmann (talk) 07:57, 4 October 2008 (UTC)
You should change the initial description to Hungarian Jewish not Austrian Jewish...? Herzl was definitely a Hungarian Jew...or do you know something I don't know? —Preceding unsigned comment added by Hkp-avniel (talk • contribs) 14:21, 11 November 2008 (UTC)
When Herzl was born Pest-Buda (later Budapest) was part of the Habsburg Empire, later - in 1867 - this became the Austrio-Hungarian Monarchy. Definitely not the Kingdom of Hungary. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 84.110.144.248 (talk) 06:08, 5 May 2009 (UTC)
- Can somebody add the date of death of his wife? Since we have all these interesting details about his family, this is a detail we must have.
- Can somebody add the dates of birth of his children?
- How come his son converted to Catholicism? Compare this with the discussion in the previous section which claims he was interested in Judaism rather than being atheist.
Debresser (talk) 19:22, 19 August 2009 (UTC)
- I am more than suprised that no Zionist should be actively involved with making this article better since August 2009. Debresser (talk) 10:22, 4 June 2010 (UTC)
The marriage of Herzl was terrible; the son was circumcised when he was twelve - exactly in the course of the late "Judaizing" of the father described above, and the parental pressure on the son - whom Herzl imagined becoming the first "Doge" of the newly founded Jewish state - must have been heavy. And then he lost his father very early. So it can be easily imagined that he might have felt repelled by anything "Jewish" and tried to find solace in Christianity. Something similar is happening today in Germany, where the daughter of a highly respected leader of German Jewry has become what politely can only be described as "highly critical" of Israel and World-Jewry - complete with fantasies of Jewish world-conspiracy. Fuxmann (talk) 17:52, 4 June 2010 (UTC)
Debresser - the page is being improved. More to do. 7-31-2010
The article is badly written, with peculiar tenses and awkward repetitions. It needs a good cleanup. Marshall46 (talk) 10:55, 28 October 2010 (UTC)
- Another issue is the fact that the article uses the present tense almost exclusively from the point of Der Judenstaad. This style of writing should probably be avoided in an encyclopedia. Joefromrandb (talk) 16:52, 7 December 2010 (UTC)
- I noted this in reading the article today, so I'm adding a clean-up tag to it. Clarkefreak ∞ 21:49, 24 March 2013 (UTC)
Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Herzl family closed with the following statement (paraphrased): "Merge to Theodor Herzl, to be carried out by Hasirpad".
I am, however, taking the liberty of redirecting only, because, as the article is a (polished version of a rough) translation of the Hebrew article, I feel that it would be simpler (attribution-wise) to redirect and add an {{expand Hebrew}} tag to the Family section, especially since the material at Herzl family is poorly sourced and has only small details worthy of adding to this article.
הסרפד (Hasirpad) [formerly Ratz...bo] 05:53, 28 December 2012 (UTC)
Was he pro-American, neutral/indifferent, or anti-American? Does he even mention the country that would become his dream nation's greatest funder? -96.26.108.183 (talk) 01:07, 7 May 2013 (UTC)
"If His Majesty the Sultan were to give us Palestine, we could in return undertake to regulate the whole finances of Turkey. We should there form a portion of a rampart of Europe against Asia, an outpost of civilization as opposed to barbarism. We should as a neutral State remain in contact with all Europe, which would have to guarantee our existence".
Theodore Herzl, The Jewish State, 1896. Translated from the German by Sylvie D’Avigdor. Translation published by the American Zionist Emergency Council, 1946.
37.142.169.207 (talk) 07:57, 14 November 2014 (UTC)
There is an RfC on the question of using "Religion: None" vs. "Religion: None (atheist)" in the infobox on this and other similar pages.
The RfC is at Template talk:Infobox person#RfC: Religion infobox entries for individuals that have no religion.
Please help us determine consensus on this issue. --Guy Macon (talk) 00:50, 26 April 2015 (UTC)
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Lede and infobox have been vandalized, and the infobox image is missing. A fantasy given name and an unwarranted "e" in family name has been put in |name and |image tags. Carlotm (talk) 08:01, 11 February 2016 (UTC)
- Semi-protected for a week. Zerotalk 08:12, 11 February 2016 (UTC)
This page is in dire need of cleanup. I went ahead and made some obvious changes to start things, and I wanted to explain them in order to avoid confusion, make my intentions clear, and hopefully enlist support in continuing to fix up this article which I believe is an important one that is strangely in bad shape and seems to have been suffering from neglect since its creation.
I moved the 'literary' section out of the death and burial section, which I am very surprised it was in for so long as it made absolutely zero sense, into the writing section as that seemed the most reasonable choice. I then separated the comment about Altneuland from the list of works and moved it to a relevant part of the former literary section. This allowed me to create a separate subsection simply for the list of works that he has written. The Jewish State was also listed twice, so I removed the second one.
I believe a writing section which discusses his works in more detail than the Zionism section earlier in the article kind of makes sense, as his books cover a lot of material and more should be discussed than what a general overview would provide. However, his two main books do already have articles themselves so it is possible that a better solution would be simply to incorporate the most important aspects into the earlier Zionism section and remove the rest so further information can be seen on their separate articles.
As for the next stage, there are far too many quotes in this article and most should be removed in favor of more summary statements. I will work on this later if no one else does it.
Zanthos (talk) 07:28, 28 October 2016 (UTC)
I ended up heavily editing and rearranging the Zionist intellectual and activist section first, which was in total disarray with conflicting Dreyfus arguments mixed in with each other and randomly talked about again after the section had moved on to other topics, which was most likely the result of a mistake during sequential edits where it got displaced. I believe the section is vastly improved now, but I welcome comments to the contrary pointing out any issues. I'm sure it's not perfect yet and can still be improved. Also, there was a line with no reference mentioning that he emigrated to Britain in 1896 and I could find no sources to verify this, so I removed it. It seemed to be false since I found sources saying he still lived in Vienna after 1896.
I'll get to summarizing the quotes soon, starting with the A philosophy for a homeland section.
Zanthos (talk) 07:29, 4 November 2016 (UTC)
Since the article is currently protected from editing, I would like to report a spelling error here:
- Mahnruf an seine Stammesgenossen von einem nassichen Juden → Mahnruf an seine Stammesgenossen von einem russischen Juden
(von einem russischen Juden = from (or by) a Russian Jew)
--94.134.222.166 (talk) 21:56, 29 August 2017 (UTC)
It is significant (and good) to see an accurate if slightly controversial (to some) reference to the Dreyfus Affair in this article. I studied the history of Zionism at university, and have long held the belief that this affair had a very minor impact on Herzl, and that he may have later exploited the matter for his own political ends. He did indeed think initially that Dreyfus was guilty and showed almost no concern for the case, yet later wrote that Dreyfus was innocent not because the charges were part of an anti-semetic conspiracy (even though that was indeed the major factor), but because, as a Jew holding an office of responsibility and public service, he could not possibility have commited any crime in the first place: he wrote "A Jew who, as an officer on the general staff, has before him an honorable career, cannot commit such a crime . . . The Jews, who have so long been condemned to a state of civic dishonor, have, as a result, developed an almost pathological hunger for honor, and a Jewish officer is in this respect specifically Jewish." Source: biography of Herzl (based on that by Alex Bein) included in translation of Der Judenstaat ("The Jewish State") (Dover; ISBN 0-486-25849-1) 86.17.246.110 12:33, 15 March 2006 (UTC)
- The way this issue is taught, and popularly referred to, in Israel is that Herzl was not concerned at all by whether Dreyfus was guilty or not. What did shock him was the fact that the crowds were shouting "death to the Jews", as if all Jews were guilty, even though only one person was on trial. It was witnessing this event that caused him to understand that the Jews have no future in Europe (since Antisemitism is not rational and therefore cannot be rationally combatted), and therefore they must live in a land of their own.
- -Sangil 01:23, 20 May 2006 (UTC)
- May I add parenthetically you seem to have missed the point about Herzl thinking that Dreyfus had to be innocent because he was Jewish. Isn't that just as bad as thinking that he had to be guilty because he was Jewish? Hardly a rational opinion - his views (reported and cited above) were equally bigoted as the baying crowd's. I'd say that is something which should be included in any teachings of the case: you wouldn't qoute an anti-Semite in an essay criticising Judaism, would you. 86.7.208.240 23:18, 29 September 2006 (UTC)
- As no-one had bothered to reply, and there are no sources to back the "Dreyfus Affair did not affect Hertzl" claim, I have commented it out. Please bring relevant sources before re-inserting it into the article.
- -Sangil 17:37, 23 May 2006 (UTC)
- On searching for sources with the keywords Dreyfus and Herzl, I have actually been finding more stating that it did not affect him very significantly than those saying it did. In any case, I will edit the article to reflect the varying scholarly opinions on the matter (with references) as it seems clear that it will be unlikely to arrive at a consensus on this matter. It is best to reveal all sides of the story in this case.
- Also, although it is not relevant to these changes, I believe it is important to state that the quote from Herzl pasted by the original creator of this section does not exactly say that Dreyfus must have been innocent because he is a Jew, rather it seems like a statement about his character. Herzl's argument about how the honorable nature of Dreyfus' character exists and likely derives from him being Jewish is certainly up for debate, but this by no means warrants claiming Herzl was bigoted. Indeed, belonging to a particular religion or identifying with a racial group can certainly affect one's character, and it makes sense that Herzl would believe there could have been a positive effect from this.
- Zanthos (talk) 05:36, 4 November 2016 (UTC)
Hi, was happy to read the nuanced view of the Dreyfus' affair on Herzl. Another point worth mentioning is that Herzl left his position as Paris correspondent for the Neue Freie Presse in the summer of 1895, before the affair became more vocally antisemitic. [1] In any case, the article should be edited, because from the article it seems that he was the correspondent till 1906...Domberlic (talk) 14:29, 27 August 2017 (UTC)
References
Shlomo Avineri, Herzl, Shazar Center, 2007, p. 64 (published in Hebrew)
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The text currently says: "In spite of his Jewish ethnicity, Herzl was an avowed atheist." However, the note in question (Note #1) establishes only that someone asserted that Herzl was a "self-confessed atheist," it does not establish that as a fact. --DieWeisseRose (talk) 05:39, 20 November 2008 (UTC)
Judaism, as his life and writings make abundantly clear, meant more to Herzl than ethnicity. Herzl was no atheist - rather a late self-discovering Jew. In his later years he consciously adapted many Jewish religious laws and customs into his personal life and that of his family. (Fuxmann (talk) 07:31, 1 March 2009 (UTC))
- Fuxmann, do you have sources for that? Debresser (talk) 01:16, 10 December 2009 (UTC)
- How would someone's being an atheist have anything to do with their being Jewish? Many Jews are atheists. It doesn't stop them from being Jewish. Bus stop (talk) 01:27, 10 December 2009 (UTC)
Herzl's adaption of many Jewish religious laws into his later personal life is well documented in Amos Elon's Herzl-biography, his diaries and many anecdotes, as is his positive attitude towards religious Judaism, even if he never pretended or wanted to live as an orthodox Jew himself. But this has nothing to do with the "atheism" attributed to him by enemies of his political beliefs. I have not found anything remotely resembling a "confession of atheism" anywhere in his mature writings.Fuxmann (talk) 19:00, 10 December 2009 (UTC)
According the the World Zionist Organisation, Herzl's belief system was Spinozism:
When I say God I do not mean to offend the freethinkers. For my part they can say World Spirit or any other term in place of this beloved old wonderful abbreviation by which I touch the simplest understanding. For in our theological battle of words we ultimately mean the same thing. In belief or in doubt we mean the same thing: that it is inexplicable.
and
My conception of God is ...Spinozistic and approaches the natural philosophy of the monists. But Spinoza's "substance" seems to me something...inert and the universal ether of the monists, besides being incomprehensible, is too intangible and contrived. But I can conceive of an omnipresent Will, for I see it at work in the world we know. I see it as I can see the functioning of a muscle. The world is a body and God is the functioning of it.
Unfortunately, this is not a good source. [1] Individualiste (talk) 16:01, 5 April 2018 (UTC)
There is a cited scource that says that Theordor Herzl was an atheist. [2]
Personally I think that Herzl might be an atheist even though
He had respect for Judaism.However it was clear that Herzl wanted the Jewish state (Israel) to be entirely secular,not a theocracy. Coolguy10038 (talk) 05:42, 17 March 2019 (UTC)
Consider this quote:
"When I remember thee in days to come, O Jerusalem, it will not be with pleasure. The musty deposits of 2,000 years of inhumanity, intolerance, and uncleanliness lie in the foul-smelling alleys".... The amiable dreamer of Nazareth has only contributed to increasing the hatred.... What superstition and fanaticism on every side!"
-- Theodor Herzl, after a visit to Jerusalem in 1898, from James A. Haught, ed., 2000 Years of Disbelief
Herzl was probably critical of Christianity ,probably because of antisemitism.. WHEN Herzl mentions God, he probably meant symbolicly or in a different way not a literal way. You probably should see this list.
List of Jewish atheist and agnostics.Coolguy10038 (talk) 05:42, 17 March 2019 (UTC)
References
David S. New (2013). Holy War. McFarland. ISBN 9781476603919. Herzl, for example, was an atheist.
Who is trying to unnecessarily "re-Judaise" Herzl by stressing his brit-milah name as birth name? He lived, and signed his works, and is known among Israeli and Diaspora Jews - not to mention all non-Jews - under his civil registration name of Theodor (Theodore, Tivadar) Herzl, period. This effort goes along the line of calling all secular and atheist Zionists "the Messiah's donkey", i.e.: they helped fulfill religious prophecies w/o being conscious of it, which is highly offensive. This is WP, not some ghetto pashkevil.
The same goes for the attempts of minimising his importance and primacy as THE cathalyst of practical, modern, political Zionism, in favour of religious predecessors, such as the rabbis Bibas, Kalischer and Alkalai. This article is the wrong place for reviving and battling out the ideological struggle between Old Yishuv and New Yishuv, as the State of Israel as a modern state is undoubtedly the result of the efforts of activists not moved by religious, but by secular political ideologies. All else is messianic interpretation, not fact.Arminden (talk) 09:29, 11 December 2017 (UTC)
- Actually, it is not as simple as you say. Like all Jews, Herzl received a Hebrew name and that name was later used by him as a pen name. He signed his articles in Die Welt using his Hebrew name, Binyamin Zeev. See here: https://books.google.co.il/books?id=WTIqAAAAQBAJ&pg=PT118&lpg=PT118&dq=binyamin+ze%27ev+herzl+pen+name&source=bl&ots=wDFR9GXTXh&sig=oWBD9yLAzmagQYmZKQXmCrha4SA&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwi_ut6gjIXYAhXjC8AKHT_GCC8Q6AEISTAE#v=onepage&q&f=true
Best, --Geewhiz (talk) 18:29, 12 December 2017 (UTC)
- His report on the first Zionist Congress in the first issue of Die Welt has "Dr. Theodor Herzl". He also appears as Theodor Herzl in the Protocols of each of the first 18 Zionist Congresses (as far as I checked). Zerotalk 05:49, 1 July 2020 (UTC)
Someone should probably add the following:
Herzl's paternal family hailed from Hungarian Slovenia and had migrated to Bohemia in 1739. Under Emperor Joseph II, they were required to Germanise their family name Loeb (from Hebrew Lev, meaning "heart") to Herzl (German for "little heart", the addition of the letter "l" being a diminutive suffix in German and Yiddish alike).
Source: https://books.google.be/books?id=31LMY9S8IBIC&pg=PA77&lpg=PA77&dq=Herzl+little+heart&source=bl&ots=00Choa_e03&sig=nsRetNmY6j25D31nEXzawnvi6i8&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwiimKaRvePWAhUC1RoKHeg5BKAQ6AEIJzAA#v=onepage&q=Herzl%20little%20heart&f=false — Preceding unsigned comment added by 158.169.40.6 (talk) 12:12, 9 October 2017 (UTC)
הֶרְצְל NOT הֶרְצֵל — Preceding unsigned comment added by 85.250.160.143 (talk) 15:03, 23 June 2018 (UTC)
- done Nissimnanach (talk) 13:40, 7 May 2021 (UTC)Nissimnanach
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 | This edit request to Theodor Herzl has been answered. Set the |answered= or |ans= parameter to no to reactivate your request. |
5.29.34.74 (talk) 17:00, 19 May 2018 (UTC)
Not done: it's not clear what changes you want to be made. Please mention the specific changes in a "change X to Y" format and provide a reliable source if appropriate. — IVORK Discuss 17:35, 19 May 2018 (UTC)
- Thread retitled from "Remove claim of Sephardic ancestry. The links are not reliable nor are they properly sourced. All credible academic and official sources on Herzl's background dont list him as anything other than Ashkenazi, with no reference to Sephardic blood. By culture and upbringing he was an German-speaking Ashkenazi Jew.".
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Please remove references to alleged "Sephardic ancestry." The sources are not properly referenced or credible. Scarsdale.vibe (talk) 07:08, 10 June 2018 (UTC)
Not done: I found a likely reliable secondary source by Shimon Peres for the assertion. ∰Bellezzasolo✡ Discuss 21:54, 20 June 2018 (UTC)
Can someone change it? א. א. אינסטלציה (talk) 17:18, 26 June 2018 (UTC)
Hello?! א. א. אינסטלציה (talk) 16:18, 25 September 2018 (UTC)
It's a mistake. Please...
Just change it א. א. אינסטלציה (talk) 16:19, 25 September 2018 (UTC)
- I'm not sure this is consistent - I see הֶרְצְל and הֶרְצֶל (but I haven't seen הֶרְצֵל) - however I changed this to הֶרְצְל as I do see sources using this (but not צֶ). Icewhiz (talk) 06:44, 14 March 2019 (UTC)
the dohány utcai zsinagogá is located in erzsébetváros, which is the 7th district.
(jews were thrown out of hungary by the austrians. when they returned to hungary, the austrians did not want the jews to live in the cities. therefore the jews build a new district, just outside the citywalls.) — Preceding unsigned comment added by Jurasmerga (talk • contribs) 17:32, 15 June 2019 (UTC)
| This edit request to Theodor Herzl has been answered. Set the |answered= or |ans= parameter to no to reactivate your request. |
IF POSSIBLE ADD IN SECTION "DEATH AND BURIAL" IN ENTRY ON THEIDOR HERZL
First buried at the Viennese cemetery in the district of Döbling (add aource here), in 1949....
SOURCE:
Tim Corbett: “Was ich den Juden war, wird eine kommende Zeit besser beurteilen...”. Myth and Memory at Theodor Herzl's Original Gravesite in Vienns, in: S:I.M.O.N. - SHOAH: INTERVENTION. METHODS. DOCUMENTATION 3 (2016) 1, 64-88. Porteno79 (talk) 19:24, 23 May 2021 (UTC)
Z Porteno79 (talk) 19:25, 23 May 2021 (UTC)
Please add if possible
Done Run n Fly (talk) 15:46, 24 May 2021 (UTC)
The article states that in Der Judenstaat Herzl said the Jewish people should leave Europe for Palestine, their historic homeland. This is imprecise: as the article on Der Judenstaat correctly states, Herzl wrote that the Jewish people should leave Europe for a state of their own, and lists Palestine and Argentina as possible sites. He does describe Palestine as "our unforgettable historic homeland" that would be a rallying cry for the Jewish people.Isidorpax2 (talk) 23:13, 30 July 2023 (UTC)
| This edit request to Theodor Herzl has been answered. Set the |answered= or |ans= parameter to no to reactivate your request. |
I have some necessary information about "Mr. Theodor Herzl", so please give me edit permission. ali haider amrohawala 10:23, 17 April 2020 (UTC)
- Not done: it's not clear what changes you want to be made. Please mention the specific changes in a "change X to Y" format and provide a reliable source if appropriate. – Jonesey95 (talk) 13:17, 17 April 2020 (UTC)
- Felix Czeike: Historisches Lexikon Wien, Band 2. Verlag Kremayr & Scheriau, Wien 1993, ISBN 3-218-00547-7, S. 46f.
- Werner T. Bauer: Wiener Friedhofsführer. Genaue Beschreibung sämtlicher Begräbnisstätten nebst einer Geschichte des Wiener Bestattungswesens. Falter Verlag, Wien 2004, ISBN 3-85439-335-0.
- Hans Pemmer / Ninni Lackner: Der Döblinger Friedhof. Seine Toten, seine Denkmäler. Wien: Rausch 1947
- Tim Corbett: “Was ich den Juden war, wird eine kommende Zeit besser beurteilen...”. Myth and Memory at Theodor Herzl's Original Gravesite in Vienns, in: Vol 3 No 1 (2016): S:I.M.O.N. SHOAH: INTERVENTION. METHODS. DOCUMENTATION 3 (2016) 1, 64-88.
Porteno79 (talk) 19:26, 23 May 2021 (UTC)
The English translation is my own creation, so if someone else deems it satisfactory, please link to it as an reference.
English: https://tddpirate.zak.co.il/third-level-richness/solon-in-lydia-by-theodor-herzl-english-translation/
Hebrew (not relevant in the English Wikipedia, could be relevant in he.wikipedia.org): https://benyehuda.org/read/18025
Tddpirate (talk) 00:07, 12 May 2022 (UTC)
This quote was in the anti-Zionism article. Don't think it belongs there, as nothing to do with anti-Zionism, but should probably be in this article. See previous article for sourcing: "Herzl believed that the anti-Semitism of his day contained certain elements of what he called 'legitimate self-defense,' for emancipated Jews were particularly well-suited for commerce and the professions, thus creating 'fierce competition' with bourgeois Gentiles...Herzl believed that anti-Semites themselves would appreciate the desirability and feasibility of the Zionist project and would gladly help ensure a smooth transfer of unwanted Jews from Europe to Palestine." (Penslar 2006, pp. 13–14) harv error: no target: CITEREFPenslar2006 (help)
BobFromBrockley (talk) 10:41, 3 November 2022 (UTC)
Add a hyperlink for the seperate article on Stephen Norman to his name. 61.1.53.217 (talk) 21:52, 26 December 2022 (UTC)
Done RudolfRed (talk) 00:45, 24 March 2023 (UTC)
| This edit request to Theodor Herzl has been answered. Set the |answered= or |ans= parameter to no to reactivate your request. |
Please remove this line:
Herzl is specifically mentioned in the Israeli Declaration of Independence
and add this one:
Herzl is named in the Israeli Declaration of Independence
It's shorter and clearer; you can make a clear reference to someone without naming him, but not vice versa. ALSO Please fulfill the malformed request in the section above this one.
123.51.107.94 (talk) 01:05, 22 March 2023 (UTC)
- Not done for now: the statement is sourced and easily attributed to other sources. You are welcome to seek consensus for your proposed change.
M.Bitton (talk) 02:18, 24 March 2023 (UTC)
hey, was trying to find a good source for the date of the photo File:Herzl on a balcony 1901.jpg, and different sources give different dates.
- This one says "1898 DURING THE FIRST ZIONIST CONGRESS", but first congress was in 1897;
- this one says "1901 during the 5th Congress", but it's reliability is a question itself.
- this one says "1901, 1904";
- this one says "Fifth Zionist Congress in December 1901";
- this one says "Basle (1898)";
- this one gives "28 VII 1903" (though it's a photo on a postcard);
- this one says "First Zionist Congress in 1901" that is certainly wrong,
- this one says "August 1897",
- this one is just "Zionist Congress, early 1900s" (and they took photo from Commons), and, finally,
- wall street journal says "first Zionist Congress in 1897."
Any thoughts? Artem.G (talk) 16:54, 9 May 2023 (UTC)
- pinging several editors who might be interested (no obligations, of course!) Onceinawhile, Dovidroth, Iskandar323. Artem.G (talk) 17:56, 9 May 2023 (UTC)
- @Artem.G: This page you gave does not state a date for the photo. But more interestingly, at the bottom of the image it says "Beilage zu Nr. 28 'Die Welt'" (Supplement to Number 28, Die Welt). Die Welt was a Zionist newspaper published from 1897 to 1914. It is available here but is very hard to search exhaustively. There is no volume 28 but each of the 18 volumes has an issue 28. I first tried 1901 without success, also issue 28 was in August but the congress in that year was in December. I'll look at issue 28 in the other years next. Zerotalk 02:16, 10 May 2023 (UTC)
- Ok, it appears in issue 28 of volume 8 (1904) devoted to Herzl on his death. It is identical to this, including the caption "Dr. Theodor Herzl an der Rheinbrücke" (Dr. Theodor Herzl at the Rhine Bridge). It appears on a page by itself and doesn't seem to be mentioned in the text (though the archive has at least one page missing). Zerotalk 04:00, 10 May 2023 (UTC)
- Meanwhile, the National Library of Israel holds a negative from the "Pritzker Family National Photography Collection". No date for the photograph is given, which probably means they don't know it. We can trust them that the photographer was A. M. Lilian though. Zerotalk 04:00, 10 May 2023 (UTC)
- But maybe not the spelling... Die Welt v40, issue 30, page 14 says "Das Bild 'Herzl an der Rheinbrücke' in Basel ist nach einer Photographie angefertigt, die von E. M. Lilien nergestellt wurde." (The picture "Herzl at the Rhine Bridge" in Basel is from a photograph taken by E. M. Lilien.) (I'm guessing Lilien->Lilian is a German->Hebrew thing.) Still no date. There is also mention of a second photo of Herzl at the Rhine Bridge not the same as this one. Zerotalk 04:16, 10 May 2023 (UTC)
- E. M. Lilien was Ephraim Moses Lilien, known better as an illustrator. There is a lot about him in this book, including on page 158: "Later, his 1901 photograph of Theodor Herzl looking from the Rhine Bridge in Basel became the motto of the Jewish National Fund (Berkowitz 1993, 138)." The cited book of Berkowitz is here and has the image but not a date on page 136 (I can't see p135, can anyone?). There is a reference though: Alfred Werner, 'The Tragedy of Ephraim Moses Lilien', Herzl Year Book, vol 2, p92. I don't have it. There is quite a lot of work on Lilien and surely something has a definitive statement. Lilien was a delegate at the 1901 Zionist Congress in Basel (but is not mentioned at all in the Protokolls of earlier Congresses), so 1901 is looking good. Zerotalk 04:48, 10 May 2023 (UTC)
- Here documentary evidence for 1901 is claimed. Zerotalk 04:52, 10 May 2023 (UTC)
- Well done Zero, fantastic. Reading that last link shows it was a question that has puzzled many people. The summary is perfect:
So there it is: chapter and verse. The most famous photograph of Theodor Herzl was taken sometime between December 26 and 30th - very pleasantly, he says in the letter to Lilien - at the Fifth Zionist Congress, in Basel, in 1901.
- Onceinawhile (talk) 06:50, 10 May 2023 (UTC)
- Oh, thanks a lot for such detailed analysis! I'll go through your links, though I didn't expect it to be that obscure. The photo is really famous, they print it everywhere in Israel and elsewhere (e.g. I saw a mural in Vilnius, Lithuania just several months ago), but it looks like nobody even tried to date the photo correctly. Artem.G (talk) 06:51, 10 May 2023 (UTC)
- The letter of 30 Jan 1902 from Herzl to Lilien thanking Lilien for the "Rheinhintergrundsbild" (picture with Rhine background) and asking for an additional copy for his mother can be seen here in Ost und West, vol 4 (1904) page 639. The text beside it says that the letter refers to our image, which is reproduced on page 509. This is very good confirmation. Zerotalk 08:13, 10 May 2023 (UTC)
- A codicil to this photo is that several sources say Herzl is standing on the balcony of the hotel room he occupied during the 1st Zionist Congress (1897). I don't know a solid source for that, though it makes propaganda sense. Perhaps this explains why so many sources date the photo to 1897. Zerotalk 08:32, 10 May 2023 (UTC)
To editor Nishidani: If you zoom into the source you can see something between "hintergründ" and "bild". I thought it was "r" (and google didn't mind) but now I think it is either a meaningless pen wiggle or an "s". I don't know what German dialect Herzl wrote in, but "Rhein+Hintergründ+s+Bild" is a plausible reading, is it not? Zerotalk 13:13, 10 May 2023 (UTC)
- Stone the effen crows, you swine! Ya got me out for my usual refusal to squint. I should wear glasses because otherwise I would have picked up the error in spelling that with an umlaut, Hintergründ. I jus'saw 'r' which ain't on, and just corrected/normalised to Hintergrundbild, of which Hintergrundsbild is a poifectly acceptable variant. It's not a matter of dialect:Herzl wrote flawless German, though in his private letters to kinfolk etc., he wasn't beyond using Viennese and Yiddish idioms.
- Must be winter over there, so be careful of thunderbolts. I think the tetragrammaton is getting pissed off at your rival omniscience, and might be tempted to do the rest of us on wiki a favour by zeroing in on the likes of you with a blitz of a bolt even from the cerulean heights, of the kind that put the wind up James Joyce in his nomadic life from Oireland to Trieste. In the meantime I'm cleaning up my new keyboard from the mess my visceral reaction to your meticulous corrective note of doubt, and hiking to the local pharmacy to get some vaseline. Being caught by the short and curlies for sheer laziness does affect a chap that way, ya know. Nishidani (talk) 13:51, 10 May 2023 (UTC)
- Meanwhile I have learned that "u" with a little curve or circle above it is not a weird way to write "ü" but just a way to distinguish "u" from other letters that can look similar in hand-writing. Also a speculative suggestion that the irregular placement of that "s" might be the author's way to indicate that it is not a picture of the background but of himself with that background, basically "Rheinhintergrund-Bild" rather than "Rhein-Hintergrundbild". Zerotalk 03:27, 11 May 2023 (UTC)
- It's the sort of orthographo-semantic quibble one would associate with his great adversary Karl Kraus, whose finicky precisian's heated insistence on the different implications instinct in such stylistic variants was so lovingly maniacal that he concluded at life's end that the world's woes were created by carelessness in news reporters' prose in the failure to attend to such minutiae. A Germanist will clarify of course, but if he thought such a nuance was critical, it would fit his well-known dandyesque narcissism (it was once quipped that the clothes he ripped metaphorically in expressing distress over the impoverished plight of the Ostjuden were cut to measure by the finest tailors in Vienna). I mean, with that Mosaic beard's eyecatching prominence would any normal chap need to clarify that the pic was of him, not the river, rather as of Leonardo da Vinci felt it necessary to underline that his most famous portrait was of Lisa Gherardini and not of the Arno river with its Romito di Laterina bridge in the background. Now that I still haven't woken up and am still struggling with the oneiric pressures that induce me to pompous blowhardery, one could note that he grew that beard, admirably, as a personal signature, to declare in the face of the rising antisemitism in Vienna that he too, though sharing nothing culturally or even somatically with the Ostjuden whose 'ugly' influx into the city was deplored by the usual racists, was Jewish. It was perhaps the one sensible gesture that lethal dreamer made in his feverishly rhetorical, theatrical, scribbler's life.Nishidani (talk) 05:49, 11 May 2023 (UTC)
I think there's a small typo in the fourth paragraph of the "Family" section in the article. Currently, it reads "Hanz Herzl voluntarily had himself circumcised 29 May 1905". However, everywhere else in this section, the article spells the name of Theodor Herzl's son as "Hans" rather than "Hanz". Ariel Don (talk) 02:29, 23 June 2023 (UTC)
- Fixed, thanks. Zerotalk 08:56, 23 June 2023 (UTC)
- What is the supererogatory 'voluntarily' doing there? Hans was a deeply disturbed adolescent at the time (and for all of his life) as everyone knows, and Amos Elon for one states he 'underwent circumcision apparently at the urging of Herzl's disciples.' Nishidani (talk) 09:56, 23 June 2023 (UTC)
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Change "Pinkser" to "Pinsker" in the last paragraph of section "World Jewish Congress" of this article. I assume based on context that "Pinkser" refers to Leon Pinsker. Ariel Don (talk) 14:04, 17 October 2023 (UTC)
- @Ariel Don: Done. GoingBatty (talk) 14:16, 17 October 2023 (UTC)
There is an archived discussion about whether he was an atheist or not. I don’t know the answer. But I do know it’s strange for this article to have three separate categories at the bottom saying he was an atheist, while the rest of this article doesn’t address the question at all. Anythingyouwant (talk) 01:19, 18 December 2023 (UTC)
- Apparently he was 2601:40F:600:32E0:4C28:4161:785F:11F4 (talk) 01:00, 25 December 2023 (UTC)
- Can you please provide reliable sources about it? Anythingyouwant (talk) 01:02, 25 December 2023 (UTC)
Zionist forefather Theodor Herzl was an atheist, as was his close colleague Max Nordau.
found on an LSE blog, not suitable for the article. imilarly, political Zionism’s founder, Theodor Herzl, was a secular agnostic and perhaps even an atheist. Israel’s founding generation was anti-religion and convinced that Judaism as a faith was on the verge of dying, as the veteran peace activist Uri Avnery recalls
seems to be a thesis of some kind. I think "secular" is probably a better description, since it's not clear if he was agnostic, atheist, or simply not religious. Andre🚐 02:21, 25 December 2023 (UTC)
- This is a difficult question without a clear answer. I've seen sources going both ways. In Herzl's diaries there are many statements invoking God in terms that a theist would use, but there are also things like this:
When I say “God” I do not mean to offend the free-thinkers. As far as I am concerned, they can use “World Spirit” or some other term in place of this dear old wonderful abbreviation by means of which I get across to the simple intelligences. In our academic battle of words, we still mean one and the same thing. In fact, in belief as well as in doubt we mean the very same thing: that it is inexplicable! (June 12, 1895)
I incidentally mentioned my views on the Deity. I want to bring up my children with a belief in what might be called the historical God. To me, “God” is a beautiful, dear old word which I want to retain. It is a wonderful abbreviation for conceptions that might be beyond the grasp of a childlike or limited intellect. By “God” I understand the Will to Goodl The omnipresent, infinite, omnipotent, eternal Will to Good, which does not immediately prevail everywhere but is always victorious in the end. For which Evil, too, is but a means. How and why, for example, does the Will to Good permit epidemics to exist? Because epidemics cause musty old cities to be torn down and new, bright, healthful cities to come into being, with inhabitants who draw a freer breath.
Thus, anti-Semitism, too, probably contains the divine Will to Good, because it forces us to close ranks, unites us through pressure, and through our unity will make us free.
My conception of God, is, after all, Spinozistic and also resembles the natural philosophy of the Monists. But I think of Spinoza’s “substance” as something inert, so to speak, and that incomprehensible universal ether of the Monists seems too intangible and too vague to me. But I can conceive of an omnipresent will, for I see it at work in the physical world. I see it as I can see the functioning of a muscle. The world is the body and God is the functioning of it. The ultimate purpose I do not and need not know; for me it is enough that it is something higher than our present condition. This I can again express with old words, and I gladly do so. Eritis sicut dei, scientes bonum et malum [Ye shall be as gods, knowing good and evil]. (August 18, 1895)
These quotations from "The Complete Diaries of Theodor Herzl", ed. Patai, trans. Zohn, Volume 1, are of course unusable without secondary source support. Zerotalk 06:01, 25 December 2023 (UTC)
