Talk:Harla people

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harla are semitic according to most historians now

the harla are viewed as semitic people not cush so unless you can find a source disputing that they are cush than ill have to add that they were semites. by the way ulrich just lacks evidence connecting hararis with harla but its been mainstream that the harla themselves were semities, it could however be dismissed that they were not harari though based on their language. i can see the darod and ogadenis being connected to harla because they occupied most of that region. http://books.google.ca/books?id=8GDPIHADsNYC&pg=PA36&lpg=PA36&dq=harla+ethiopia&source=bl&ots=zDaGtjqiVz&sig=mbL9FoE5Vrwixm_iSYfBLtgZV5g&hl=en&sa=X&ei=nv1PUK_KKKL00gGxsYCAAw&ved=0CDMQ6AEwAA#v=onepage&q=harla%20ethiopia&f=false Baboon43 (talk) 03:16, 12 September 2012 (UTC)

It doesn't state anywhere in that Ezekiel Gebissa passage that most historians view the Harla as Semitic speakers. What it says is that the Harla were "Semitic-speaking". And this claim, per its footnote 14, appears to be sourced to Azais, Chambard and Huntingford. However, these are the same authorities which, according to Braukämper, actually indicate that the builders of the Harla-linked structures in Haraghe were ancestral to the Somali ("proto-Somali"). Braukämper also concedes that the linguistic proof in support of Semitic language affinities for the Harla is lacking. Further, again per Braukämper, modern traditions likewise associate the Harla with the Darod and the Ogaden Somali sub-clan (c.f. ). Linguistic research by Enrico Cerulli on Af-Harlaad in turn points to connections with Cushitic dialects spoken by the Yibir and Midgan (). That's the status quo. Middayexpress (talk) 07:43, 12 September 2012 (UTC)

By the way, there's no such thing as a medieval "Cush" people. The Kingdom of Kush was an ancient kingdom in the northern Sudan/southern Egypt area, not in the Horn region. It is distinct from the modern speakers of the Cushitic branch of the Afro-Asiatic language family. The linguistic term "Cushitic" was actually coined only a few centuries ago and as a Biblical reference (as was Semitic, incidentally). Middayexpress (talk) 07:43, 12 September 2012 (UTC)

I believe in one of the discussions you brought up Jeberti people whom are classified as habesha and semitic on wiki so somalis descended from semities in that case. The so called somali forefathers are all semites therefore cush somali have done more to push semitics at the top of the hierechy then semities themselves..this is mainly due to the connection of islam coming from arabia but the recent emergence of "kush push" as i like to call it is aiming to isolate somalis from habesha semitics whom are arab & jewish mix..regardless, religion and language plays a major role in classification Baboon43 (talk) 22:37, 23 November 2012 (UTC)

Actually, the Jabarti I referred to was Abdirahman bin Isma'il al-Jabarti, forefather of the Darod clan. I was not referring to any Ethiosemitic speakers, who in any case have nothing to do with the Sheikh. Ethiosemitic speakers in Ethiopia are also little different from the Cushitic speakers. This is because they too were originally Cushitic speakers, before later adopting Semitic languages from migrants (c.f. ). Hence, the Sidama substratum in the Harari language. At any rate, in future, per WP:TPG#YES, try and keep discussions focused upon the actual topic. Middayexpress (talk) 18:03, 24 November 2012 (UTC)

yea your not refering to ethio semitic but your still refering to semitic arab am i right? ethiopians and arabs are called semitic for a reason..im on topic you seem to dismiss harla of being semitic when i gave you a source thats why im bringing this up..they could be originally cushitic but semitics may later gain the upper hand and change them im not sure why your going centuries back just so you can claim well they are originally cush..the people that you claim were originally cush were not the same as habesha today even if what you say is true..cultures religion and influence change over time. those in the past would not be recognized today by those in the present Baboon43 (talk) 21:11, 24 November 2012 (UTC)

This is mostly not on topic, but I'll quickly address it this one time. I never claimed that Ethiopians are "cush". I have actually told you several times elsewhere that "cush" is a reference to an ancient kingdom in the Sudan area, the Kingdom of Kush. The Cushitic languages were named after the Biblical character Cush (Bible), not that Sudanese region or its people. It's important not to confuse the two. At any rate, Habesha are referred to as Semitic speakers because they speak Semitic languages today. But those Ethiosemitic languages (that's the actual name of the Ethiopian Semitic languages, not something I made up) all have Cushitic substrata. These substrata represent lingering traces of the languages that their ancestors originally spoke before adopting the Semitic languages of the migrants. By the way, Cushitic and Semitic are both branches of the Afro-Asiatic language family, so they both ultimately descend from a common ancestral language called Proto-Afro-Afroasiatic (c.f. ). Middayexpress (talk) 21:30, 24 November 2012 (UTC)

recent source

i have told you that they were thought to be cushitic but new RS has done research on their language and thus labeled them semitic. i adivse you to get recent sources that mention their cushitic language or it shouldnt be included..aethiopica is extremely old and even on the section of that source it said that more research is still needed Baboon43 (talk) 17:03, 28 November 2012 (UTC)

Actually, no linguistic studies modern or otherwise have been done on the Harla language. This is obviously because it is an extinct language, with no spoken or written traces of it left (unlike, say, the ancient Egyptian language, which can be and has been analysed because there are many written records of it in existence). Only linguistic research on modern languages spoken by various groups called the Harla have been conducted by Enrico Cerulli (not by Encyclopedia Aethiopica). These tongues showed affiliations with the Cushitic dialects of the Yibir et al.. If actual research on the extinct Harla language is done, then we can of course add it as well. But at the moment, this has not yet come to pass. Middayexpress (talk) 17:22, 28 November 2012 (UTC)

Find a source that explicitly states that harla spoke cushitic like i did for semitic. Baboon43 (talk) 05:42, 13 February 2013 (UTC)

The Encylopedia Aethiopica does. This has been discussed at length before, too. And unlike the assertions of Semitic connections, it is based on actual linguistic research by Cerulli (c.f. ). Middayexpress (talk) 15:23, 13 February 2013 (UTC)

ahmed harla perhaps

"Ahmad b. Ibrahim was born around 1506 in the region of Funyan-Bira and was most probably ethnically affiliated to the Harala people" Baboon43 (talk) 17:55, 28 November 2012 (UTC)

That self-published source attributes that speculation to Braukämper. However, a Google Books search terms up only turns up that pdf . Middayexpress (talk) 18:19, 28 November 2012 (UTC)