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'==Proposal== This article should try to define what a cult of personality is rather than provide examples. Who is and who isn't a cult of personality would be completely subjective. One could argue that Obama has a cult of personality following. One could argue the same about previous argentine president Peron and one could argue the same about any communist or totalitarian dictator such as kim-il sung. There is too much of a range of how sensitive you want to be before you slap this label on something. We shouldn't decide that here, no matter how generally accepted it is. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.7.76.38 (talk) 17:33, 3 September 2008 (UTC)
This is an archive of past discussions about Cult of personality. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 1 | Archive 2 | Archive 3 |
MY NAME IS XANDER this may be a stupid question, but how does a personality cult start and how does it continue? Does the dictator/leader ditate to his ministers/the media what information they should say and how to portray him, or is the ministers/officials/the media that want to be 'in the good books'with the leader and so start the personality cult themselves? Saccerzd 21:31, 12 September 2007 (UTC) ps: if you reply to this, please let me know on my userpage. thank you.
Yes, the leader usually does start his own personality cult or sometimes his ministers do too. In totalitarian regimes, the dictator is in control of all media. They make laws that every house and public building has their portrait. The government hires artists, poets, etc to build monuments, write poems about the leader, etc.The cult of personality is enforced usually by a secret police or simply fear of the secret police. Schools are told to praise the leader in their classes.
FOr example, Turkmenbashi, late leader of Turkmenistan, had statues of himself built. He wrote a book about his philosophies and made it law for the book to be held in high regard. Mosques had to have his book next to the Quran. His book was taught in schools. You had to memorize passages from it to get your driver license. He also made it law to rename the months and days of week after names of his family. His was the most bizarre personality cult. Though usually personality cults end when the dictator dies or is ousted from office. When Stalin died, his successor, Kruschev denounced Stalin's personality cult. Portraits of Stalin in public places disappeared and soon his cult of personality was gone. Azn Clayjar 14:28, 12 October 2007 (UTC)
I think that adding Franco to this article is highly debatable. While there are some good reasons to include Franco in this list, his supposed cult of personality paled in comparision to the other individuals in this article. I also think that the picture is unsuitable. It gives off a false impression that Franco's "cult" was as extensive as that of say, Mao or Hitler. Furthermore, the picture doesn't provide any further explanation of what a cult of personality would look like, as it merely portrays a meeting between Hitler and Franco.
I'm having NPOV issues with the use of that picture there. -- John Owens 19:14 Apr 4, 2003 (UTC)
Why? -- User:J.J. 05:28 Apr 6, 2003
I think the item about gurus should be included in the main text because it is so closely related to cult of the personality of political leaders. Cults can be considered as mini dicatorships. -- Andries 31 Jan 2004
I do have a problem with this picture which appears to be of the forbidden City and its caption.
Mao Zedong *had* a vast cult of personality in the 1960's, he doesn't have one today, and having large monuments for a dead political leader isn't considered a cult of personality (i.e. George Washington). The amount of Mao related stuff in China in 2004 isn't that out of line with other nations. In one sense, the Forbidden City picture is misleading in that it is the *only* place where I've seen a large picture of Mao in public, and its not on every street corner.
If you can replace it with something from the Cultural Revolution (i.e. painting of Mao at the time or something with red marks quoting Mao) that would be better.
Roadrunner 15:28, 14 May 2004 (UTC)
I have to agree with you on that one. Why does a poster of Mao count as a vast cult of personality, but a statue of Lincoln does not?
-Al234 17:39, 14 May 2004 (UTC)
I'll leave it out, and I will replace it with Stalin's pic. WhisperToMe 22:40, 14 May 2004 (UTC)
i think you should mention col.gaddafi in this article, for he is fournishing a great example of the cult of personality with his pictures on the school books,on the currency and on huge billboards scattered in the streets and in public places.he even changed the calendar and the name of his country.
I'm curious to know, too, where this is idea that a cult of personality must refer to a living person came from? The dictionary definition makes no such claim, so, where does this idea come from? The dictionary definition is simply: "intense devotion to a particular person" - No reference to living status, or whether or not they have to be bad men to get that intense devotion.--Aco
Random trivia:
Random personal trivia:
I note the lack of mention of other important figures who left the government to avoid becoming like that like the once President of the South African Government [Nelson Mandela]
Edited [Dwarf Kirlston|User:Dwarf Kirlston] Feb 16
What about Hirohito? During a large portion of his reign wasn't there a cult of personality surrounding him? 68.100.106.83 05:48, 1 Mar 2005 (UTC)
Cults of personality are one of the most frequently used tools of governmental indoctrination in the United States. An common aspect of the Cult of Personality is the creation of a fiction or mythology surrounding the character. Let us not forget the chopping of Washington's cherry tree or "Honest Abe's" returned penny. These are not things that have been invented hundreds of years after the fact, but myths which arose from a very real cult of personality.
In fact, I would argue that the presidency of the United States holds a de facto personality cult. After all, is not the President's image shown in virtually every gradeschool classroom? And don't we watch the President even while he's on vacation? While it may not be a universally supported cult status, we must admit the President holds a special place, elevated to the status of diety in the minds of the public, be that diety good or evil.
The display of an image such as the current image of Stalin is somewhat biased, as is the bias towards mentioning those with cults of personality who were not the best of leaders. Ceacescu, Hitler, and Kim Jong-il may not have been great leaders, but the personality cult does not simply arise around evil people. As I mentioned before, personality cults arise around Presidents of the United States almost immediately. I hold, in fact, that the vast majority of "founding fathers" have cults of personality surrounding them, and in fact had such during their lives.
Frankly, I think "Dear Leader" is analagous to "Honest Abe."
In one place it says that it only applies when they're currently living at the time of their personality cult, and then goes on to list Ataturk "posthomus"... -- Joolz 19:01, 18 Mar 2005 (UTC)
I removed this sentence from the article because I think that such an assertion needs to be backed by a source who has made the charge. Or at least substantial list of actions that have supported a cult of personality. Cheers, -Willmcw 19:30, May 16, 2005 (UTC)
The trouble with this example is that the article states that cults of personality extend only to the living.
Roadrunner 14:33, 20 May 2005 (UTC)
The education system in Taiwan called for the use of an extra space when writing Chiang Kai-shek's name. This started when he was alive. His writings such as "Soviet Russia in China" had to be read by school kids each morning. Shawnc 06:18, 9 July 2006 (UTC)
Considering the length of the thread that was here I've moved it to Talk:Cult of personality/Castro archive. Here's what it comes down to (at least from my point of view). The central question is whether there is an abundance of images in public places, one of the prerequisites for attributing a cult status to someone. Since my personal observation wasn't accepted (original research), I've asked at three travel forums what others have observed. The results are at travellerspoint, aardvark and lonely planet. Especially the last one has a sufficient number of entries (16) to settle the question; there are hardly any public images of Castro. DirkvdM 08:44, 27 September 2005 (UTC)
Political bumper stickers have been popular in American politics for decades. "Nixon's the man" Though these may not be part of an active campaign, they are still conventional signs of political support. If Bush put his face on the coinage, or if we started singing "Our Great Commander W" every morning at work, then he'd have a cult of personality. The only way that we should include a comment like the one above is if we clarify that it is intended as hyperbole. The sources don't seem to be using it seriously. IMO. Cheers, -Willmcw 06:05, Jun 11, 2005 (UTC)
efforts to name ships and public buildings after him while he was still alive. I don't know if this would count though, as the "deification" of Reagan came when he was no longer in office albeit still living.
Also, the US is by no means the only country to call Turkmenistan and the DPRK cult of personalities, many nations use these terms as do human rights organizations and academics, many of whom likely oppose the US as well.
Finally, you disagree with the use of the word 'cult' since these countries use force to create the cult and in normal usage the term 'cult' implies a voluntary support. This may be true, but as an encyclopedia we are supposed to use the actual term used in the literature which, in this case, is 'cult of personality.' --The Way 22:38, 20 December 2006 (UTC)
I've removed the random attempts at comedy in this article i.e. references to "niggers" and "homosexuals" and restored it back to normal.
Please do not use Wikipedia as an attempt to insert your current partisan political views, whatever they may be. The mere fact that people are able to disagree with the president in the United States (and many do) precludes the idea of it being a cult of personality. Cults of personality prohibit opposing views. You cannot, for example, show disrespect to either of the Kims in North Korea.
An anon editor makes an interesting point. Is the cult of personality always only directed at living leaders? This surely isn't true in North Korea, for instance, and as noted, wasn't true of Turkey, where Ataturk was used as a symbol by a particular sector of the populace. Can the statement that it only refers to the living be sourced? Grace Note 06:11, 15 Jun 2005 (UTC)
Actually, Washington did have a personality cult - and it existed during his lifetime. How do you think he ran unopposed? It is merely Western psuedo-pychology o claim that the West doesn't have such things as personality cults, it did with the LIVING Ronald Reagan!
Some good points made by everyone. I wrote a lot of the current article so I am now being asked to contribute to the discussion.
It seems with a lot of articles (especially ones describing negative political phenomena) some wikipedias have an obsession with trying to cram some reference to the United States into it, no matter how akward the process is. As far as I am concerned, there has never been anything in the US resembling a personality cult. However, I think it is important to classify personality cults as a relatively modern phenomenon. In the old days, before the modern democratic state came into existance, leaders were almost always venerated in an overly lavish way that today seems strange and excessive. That was just part of being a leader. So yes, George Washington was venerated, but that was in a large part due to the fact that that's just how Heads of State in general were treated in those times. As countries liberalized and became more democratic in terms of political dissent and debate and whatnot obviously people stopped caring about and going along with leader worship. I don't know when exactly you could say this era of sorts ended, but I would estimate mid to late 19th Century. Before then you could essientially just point to any leader and say he had a personality cult. Queen Victoria, Simon Bolivar, Ivan the Terrible, etc etc etc
We can only really classify personality cults today because we know what the alternative is. That is to say we can now argue a personality cult is not "normal," as judged by the modern-day, international, democratic standard of how political leaders are "supposed" to be treated in a modern, free society.
That being said, I think a separate article on hero worship would be valid, as it is a distinct subject. It's an equally negative concept, but one that goes beyond politics and beyond living political leaders. For example, a possible definiton could be like:
So anyway to summerize, here is my belief in the basic characteristics of a personality cult:
Comments? user:J.J. 15:20, 31 August 2005 (UTC)
Another early example of a cult of personality during both life and death would be Alexander the Great. He purposedly named cities after him and erected statues, not to mention took advantage of local mythology to make him seem to be divinely inspired.
—== Bush ==
Hi 211, you'll need to provide a reputable source for your edit; the article you linked to was written by a freelance for a little known website, so far as I can tell. I've removed the paragraph: "Certain left-wing groups in the United States argued the existance of a semi-cult of personality around president George W. Bush, with some of his partisan supporters refering to heim as Commander-in-Chief, appointed by God, and the only person capable of defeating terrorism. Many of Bush's opponents, such as John Kerry and numerous celeberities and journalists, were either boycotted or blackwashed, and some were refered to as "traitors" or "comforting the enemy". SlimVirgin (talk) 02:53, September 6, 2005 (UTC)
too much of a stretch? 172.149.168.102 04:46, 21 September 2005 (UTC)
I removed:
The extreme cult of personality as we think of it today, is thus a fairly contemporary phenomenom. Like the concept of totalitarianism in general, personality cults are often seen as a product of modern media, and thus could not be achieved in earlier eras, before the existence of things such as television, movies, and radio.
It is too much of a stretch to make this statement and call "personality of cult" as a "product of modern media" or "fairly contemporary."
--Charlestustison 05:43, 26 September 2005 (UTC)
I added Kemal Atatürk's Turkey to the list of hosts of personality cults but somehow it disappeared. So let me explain briefly why it is correct to add Kemal Atatürk's Turkey to the list. Several of the properties of a personality cult fits to Turkey very well at that time. Those are resisting democratic reform (there was a one-party state for 22 years, and an authoritarian character of the regime is unquestionable); revolutionary consciousness; honoring the governer as the liberator and the saviour; statues (in all of the schools and many other public places), paintings (in all of the classrooms and again at many other places); propaganda; and quashing the opposition within a ruling elite (e.g. the lawsuit to execute Kazım Karabekir who is one of the powerful commanders in the Independence War of Turkey, sending another potent figure of the Independence War, Ali Fuat Cebesoy to Moscow as an ambassador. Kazım Karabekir was the commander of the armies of east while Ali Fuat was the commander of the armies of the west Anatolia.) These are enough to put Atatürk's Turkey o the list, and I have added it.
You're wrong in many points: 1) There weren't any "resisting democrating reform": Actually two trials were made. One in 1925, (Terakkiperver Cumhuriyet Firkasi) which ended in self-dissolution after some of its founders and members has participated in Izmir Assasination attempt in 1926. The second one in 1930, the liberal Serbest Cumhuriyet Firkasi which was founded by one of Atatürk's friends (probably funded by himself) dissolved itself not because of government indiction but because of Atatürk's refusal (maybe inability) to disassociate himself from the ruling party due to pressure. Despite Atatürk's public urge to continue to its works, the party's president (Fethi Okyar) and founders dissolved the party not to be seen opposed to Atatürk.
2) A liberator of a country of course will be honoured. Aren't Washington, Lincoln, Churchill honoured, their face printed on the money? This doesn't make a cult of personality.
3) Kazim Karabekir were never executed. The frivolous lawsuits were dismissed and actually he was selected as the President of Parliament in 1947.
4) Ali Fuat Cebesoy was sent to Soviet Union, first due to need of an absolutely trustable associate in the most important and maybe only ally of Turkey during the war. (He was a childhood friend and tablemate of Atatürk in military school) As a soldier, he was unable to contain Greeks' advance or show any efficiency of transiting the National Forces into regular army. It is normal that who can't do the job gets dismissed.
I think it's fair enough to link Mugabe. See the following links:
uses term says Mugabe is focus of personality cult, or great leader concept says opponents accuse him of it uses term. James James 07:17, 31 December 2005 (UTC)
That's interesting, but if he has a personality cult, why doesn't it come across in the government's mouthpiece, the Harare Herald? Sure, there's an occasional editorial by a Zanu-PF suck-up, but nothing on the scale you see with the best-known personality cults. Gazpacho 07:22, 31 December 2005 (UTC)
You'll point to the Herald articles that criticise Mugabe's policies then? ;-) I take your point, but I think you should bow to the sources, which analyse his personality cult in broader terms than "the papers say good things about him". The Herald never veers from the Zanu-PF line but it's true that it steers clear of "Mugabe Saviour of the Nation" editorials. But Zimbabwe is not Soviet Russia. It has a press of sorts and the Herald must compete with other news sources to some extent.James James 07:33, 31 December 2005 (UTC)
I'll leave it in.
But I can't resist pointing out that in Soviet Russia, personality cult has YOU! Gazpacho 07:54, 31 December 2005 (UTC)
...since they are about the same thing. --MACMILLAN 21:07, 29 December 2005 (UTC)
No. As the intro indicates, there is a huge difference between praising a leader because you're sold on his vision, and praising him because you'll be arrested if you don't. Gazpacho 04:10, 3 January 2006 (UTC)
Is it true what I have heard that Ted Stevens arranged for Ted Stevens Anchorage International Airport to be named after himself. Does this make him have a degree of cult of personality too? :) --RPlunk 01:58, 15 January 2006 (UTC)
The concept of divine right of kings which developed in feudal Europe did not correspond to a cult of personality. The individual monarchs were not revered as deities, and criticism was not interpreted as blasphemy. These attitudes are inconsistent with medieval attitudes and historical events. I removed these unsupported assertions from the text.
StephenMacmanus 05:43, 20 January 2006 (UTC)
Any references for this? Gazpacho 21:44, 25 January 2006 (UTC)
This article cites "Conan O Brien of Finland" as a personality cult...this is a joke right?--Hypergeometric2F1[a,b,c,x] 21:12, 11 February 2006 (UTC)
Conan O'Brien does have a cult personality. futureconanasia.ytmnd.com photographic evidence, lol] MafiaCapo 16:06, 14 May 2006 (UTC)
Doesn't Conan O'Brien have hero worship if anything? I thought the distinction was political. But I wouldn't mind seeing a Colbert/O'Brien 08 ticket. - grahamular
Some clarifications:
a. "Charismatic leader" is a category of leadership first used by Emile Durkheim. So the article should be more properly associated with this French sociologist.
b. "cult of personality", at least in political science, is more often associated with the study of totalitarian governments, especially fascism.
As for the actual text of the article "charismatic leader" displayed on wkipedia, I reccommend oits deletion as it reads like a "cut and paste". Furthermore, without any theoretical introduction the text reads as gibberish.
Eva Peron is listed on the page as an example of a cult of personality. However, the Juan Peron article actually links to this page, in reference to the cult of personality surrounding Juan Peron. I question the inclusion of Eva Peron on the list (since she was not the actual power holder at the time), and at the very least this should be modified to "Juan Peron and Eva Peron -- Argentina"
Only the enemies of the US carry out cult of personality? C'mon give a break. There is cult of Elvis Presley in the US and of almost every Rock star. Every Holiwood actor is a personality worshipped and revered by almost every American. Every millionaire, Bill Gates, etc. The president of the US. So, please try to balance this article, otherwise is only worth for what at the moment is: Propaganda.--tequendamia 08:19, 2 April 2006 (UTC)
My opinion about this article is that it is incomplete. It deals with the personality cult issue from the point of view of the Cold War, as something that could only happen in communist regimes. The reality is that cult of personality is as ancient as humankind. If this wan't the case people would not follow leaders, would have not had kings or monarchies, would have not had celebrities. Cult of personality is in reality the essence of social architecture, It'not bad as the article suggests. I has a good side because provides the majority of population with role models and role examples from which society can learn and receive inspiration. Think of Princess Diana as the inspiration she was for her followers, think of Elvis Presley, think of Madonna, think of JFK, or Lincoln. All these are cases of personality cult and inspirational role modelling. Some people wanted the sanctification of princess Diana, and today they are attempting the sanctification of John Paul II.-tequendamia 22:22, 18 April 2006 (UTC)
"Mao Zedong of China: during the Cultural Revolution, all published works, including scientific papers, had a quote from Mao, always highlighted in boldface or red," seems kind of a lame example, it being the only one. That a personality cult does not make.
I am not so sure that Mao's was a personality cult. It was, at least to some extent, a charismatic authority. It's very controversial. --Ionius Mundus 00:03, 29 July 2006 (UTC)
Mao had a Cult of personality that embelished his experences on the long march also there are many prpaganda paintings that could be found all over china during the cultural revolution. you should look into adding him to the list, if no one minds I will do it and if it sucks well than remove it, but some one that works on this page should let me know there thoughts about adding more examples to the list. Max 16:30, 1 March 2007 (UTC)
There is little tangible evidence that the Venezuelan political system encourages a cult of personality to the extent inferred here. --Zleitzen 15:57, 7 June 2006 (UTC)
There are no sources provided for claiming any or all of these leaders have a cult of personality, though I do not personally dispute the characterization. I presented, months ago, a great deal of evidence based on the description of the article how Castro clearly fits the mold and provided a completely NPOV section saying how the matter is contested, and now any reference to Cuba has been completely excised in favor of the preferred targets of editors. This is inappropriate and is shoddy work. --TJive 04:08, 9 June 2006 (UTC)
No, that is not at all what I mean. Some editors were contesting the idea that Castro deserved a mention, whatsoever, at this article, so I put in some effort to present the matter in a meaningful and balanced way. Because it actually deals with the issue in a serious manner rather than remaining a one-line original research observation with no references cited - for examples, see the current article - I was told it made the article "unbalanced" and, since then, the material was moved to Fidel Castro, where it was watered down and probably later deleted altogether, and any reference to Castro here has been KOS, while DirkvdM made a discussion fork so that other editors, when skimming the page, would accidentally skip over it and miss the fact that there was a discussion about this at all. --TJive 00:46, 13 June 2006 (UTC)
As per Tjive's comments - this whole section needs to go. Cult of personality strictly applied refers to Stalin and Mao and so on from the early days of communism - people speculating on whether others have such a cult is unhelpful. All major leaders have been described as having a cult of personality (check if you don't believe me). The reintroduction of Khomeini sums it up. The man was a religious leader for goodness sake. Tenuous examples of leaders with cult of personality include George Bush , Margaret Thatcher , Pope John Paul II etc etc etc.--Zleitzen 12:06, 17 July 2006 (UTC)
Have taken Castro out of the otherwise sourceless "examples section" and put him in the main body. Of the examples - he was the most interesting of the lot because the issue specifically referred to a "personality cult" and whether he has one or not, which is an important and relevant part of this article. The rest have no sources and no right as of yet to be on this page.--Zleitzen 03:34, 18 July 2006 (UTC)
Is there any real justification for listing these two here? Ovadiah Yosef was simply a Chief Rabbi, not a head of state and Khomeini, while oftened depicted on posters, did not foster a cult of personality arround himself. There's a difference between high religious authority and the type of adulation that is associated with a cult of personality. --لقمانLuqman 17:10, 26 June 2006 (UTC)
I also think the whole section about Putin needs to go. If we include the paranoid accounts of media in every wikipedia section we will not create a fair representation of the facts. There IS critisizm of Putin on channels such as RTVi and RenTV. There is plenty of Israeli owned news channels in Russia offering furious critisizm of Putin. BBC is a very political source and I doubt it is fair to include it and simmilar citations. If we include Putin, we would have to include people like George Bush and every major political leader of today who has been described as leading a personality cult. Dbullet 02:42, 12 November 2007 (UTC)
Hey, I just added Ho Chi Minh... he became a big figure, especially after his death... see if I am wrong at any part. Thanks. Maxpayne lhp 21:03, 8 July 2006 (UTC)
That's not a personality cult, it's charismatic authority. --Ionius Mundus 18:16, 23 July 2006 (UTC)
I disagree. In Vietnam (especially in the North) you can see pictures of Ho in every other shop. Then there's the fact that he's embalmbed for all to see. He has a city named after him and talking to locals (again, especially in the North) he had a flawless life, to the point that his wife/wives are completely omitted from teachings within Vietnam. This includes published works within Vietnam. –GHALL89
See the textbook definition of a cult of personality, which is in fact mentioned a few times on this very page. It only counts as a cult of personality when the subject is a LIVING leader. Ho Chi Minh, like fellow socialists Lenin and Castro, did not ever accept themselves being exalted as heroes. - p1nkfl0yd —Preceding unsigned comment added by 207.6.149.147 (talk) 19:19, 17 July 2008 (UTC)
How should this article convey this concept and phrase originally coined by Karl Marx. And should original research be used to show examples of this concept or should examples be strictly sourced from notable outlets.--Zleitzen 00:57, 18 July 2006 (UTC)
I shouldn't need to repeat this again but I will. Can people please provide a source for leaders linking them explicitly to "cult of personality". A dictator does not equal cult of personality. See Augusto Pinochet. it doesn't matter if it's Hitler or Mao.--Zleitzen 00:58, 28 July 2006 (UTC)
I'm still confused. The Kims are personality cults, I don't disagree because it is fairly obvious even these days. Stalin was known for his rudeness and labeling him as a personality cult is not too questionable. Mao Zhedong, during the Cultural Reform, did make himself a personality cult, ok I do not object to that. But are Ho Chi Minh, Fidel Castro, or even George W. Bush or similar figures personality cults? I have heard nothing like "you have to praise him or be killed/jailed/harmed" about all of them. So here I can see three seperate degrees (concerning political figures only, celebrities don't count):
Any comment? Hawkie 15:39, 25 September 2006 (UTC)
It seems to me that as political Cults of Personality have been eliminated (if they ever existed) in the USA, the strange techie trend of Fanboys has sprung up. Witness the hundreds of webpages and discussion forums dedicated to the near-worship of several brands. Apple comes to mind as the best example, but similar fan bases exist for Nintendo, Sony, Square-Enix and other brands. JonJ 15:58, 16 October 2006 (UTC)JonJ
Was Saddam's picture really in every home? The article mentions that "their pictures hung in every home..." I doubt every home in Iraq had a picture of Saddam in the living room. Provide some citation specifically stating that these guys (specifically Hussein), or I'll have to edit it.
I see an unsourced list has developed yet again on this page. I have removed it for obvious reasons, see above.--Zleitzen 23:21, 24 January 2007 (UTC)
Cult of personality is impossible in capitalist country: if mass media prises the leader in socialist country, it is cult of personality because the media are own by the state. If mass media prises the leader in a capitalist country, it is not cult of personality because the media are private-owned.--Certh 09:45, 24 March 2007 (UTC)
It's not necessarily a socialist feature. It is usually a totalitarian feature. Cults of personality come because a totalitarian government has so much power and creates it to keep the leader in power and not because of its economics. Azn Clayjar 15:02, 12 October 2007 (UTC)
If the term "cult of personality" is to be used in this article there needs to be a point of origin cited for it. Marx and Khrushchev use the term "cult of the individual" so a scholar needs to be provided to use the term "cult of personality" to avoid the No Original Research rule as we would be coining an undocumented term. Also, for every example cited, there needs to be evidence that the use of the term "Cult of personality" to describe the individual is being compared to Marx of Khrushchev's use of the term (if they are being cited as the originators of the definition) - the train of thought of this article needs to be connected from origin of label to application to individuals. I only raise this because the article is (and had been greatly in the past) shifting to a bunch of Original Research statements were individual contributors concluded a certain individual fit the description of having a "cult of personality" and that is not the function of contributors to Wikipedia - we are merely here to take scholarly ideas and organize them into articles but not create them on our own. Icactus 15:15, 18 May 2007 (UTC)
Mentioning only Reagan among all these dictators seems a bit POV here. Sort of implied guilt by association. There must be verifiable sources for Kennedy, being one. It seems to sum him up pretty well. -R. fiend 04:25, 23 July 2007 (UTC)
I agree that the section should be deleted. Addition of Reagan was clearly a political play especially with the mention of Fred Thompson??? Adding a democratic figure makes it more balanced, but then also shows that the section really doesn't belong. Comparisons between Kennedy/Reagan say and Stalin/Mao are incredibly loose. I mean, come on, in one situation, you could be shot for not following the cult of personality. 72.70.33.201 06:05, 19 August 2007 (UTC)
I and a couple others have been battling over the inclusion of Fidel Castro on this page. A lot of the problem has to do with the way the term is left largely undefined on the page itself. Castro is undeniably the central figure in Cuban politics, and disagreeing with him is somewhat taken to be akin to disagreeing with socialism. What doesn't exist are the giant posters (despite what's twice been claimed) or a caricature of Fidel as a god in strength or virtue. No history has been rewritten to glorify him (a hallmark of COPs). In short, there's no widespread or deliberate and certainly no official disinformation about his "personality."
I started rambling, I think. Anyhow, while the term could logically be extended to include Fidel, it would also have to include Kennedy and Reagan and the Queen of England and Rush Limbaugh (people listen to him daily and believe whatever he tells them to, no?) and Martin Luther King Jr. (black families commonly have his portrait in their house).
In short, it comes down to if there's a fundamental difference between a popular, powerful and respected political leader and a cult of personality. To say there isn't really renders the term useless.
At least until this issue is resolved, Castro's name should not remain on the page. --MQDuck 09:12, 30 July 2007 (UTC)
The issue of the posters of Fidel was already resolved here. See above. --MQDuck 10:04, 30 July 2007 (UTC)
What about celebrities in Western culture??? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 203.129.58.86 (talk) 09:50, 3 November 2007 (UTC)
I think the whole section about Putin needs to go. The definition is "A cult of personality or personality cult arises when a country's leader uses mass media to create a larger-than-life public image through unquestioning flattery and praise." However, multiple channels have criticised Putin like RenTV, RTVi, as well as the Kremlin sponsored Youth group "NASHI".
Examples of criticism can be found here:
http://www.grani.ru/Politics/Russia/President/m.129819.html http://delo.ua/news/communication/comments/info-20036.html the man who has written the last article has a TV show he hosts from moscow, in conjunction of "the echo of moscow" radiostation which daily calls for the removal of Vladimir Putin from power and the release of Khodorkovsky. I think this qualifies as critism. The show can be watched here:
We are quoting a highly political news outlet that has had a hystery of being anti-Russian in its news outlook and the description is not consistent with other news reports. A high internal approval rating does not imply a cult of personality. Please, either provide an unbiased perspective or remove the comments.
Dbullet 21:58, 12 November 2007 (UTC)
That is the most ridiculous accusation I have ever heard. The definition of a personality cult as stated ON THIS WEBSITE is when a leader "uses mass media to create a larger-than-life public image through unquestioning flattery and praise" The key word is "unquestioning"! The existence of an organization like NASHI says NOTHING about Putin's personality cult. This is just like saying that the existance of organizations like "the other Russia" attributes a personality Cult to Kasparov and Berezovsky. Opposition exists; therefore, the definition of a personality cult does not deductively apply. Further, we can say that Bush is creating a personality cult through the unquestioning flattery and prase of the Murdoch media empire. If Putin is mentioned, we should mention others like Bush and a host of others. I think you have political views which you are trying to propogade on wikipedia, which is supposed to be an objective mass of information. Further, organizations like NASHI do not worship Putin as a personality, but merely support his politics. I challenge you to visit their website and find in their contiitution a clause praising Putin as an individual, rather than agreeing with some of his politics. I know it is difficult for someone in the west to understand that someone can objectively disagree with the empire, but attributing support for Putin to an emerence of an alleged personality cult is not a good way to deal with your complex of superiority. Dbullet 21:21, 30 November 2007 (UTC)
See heading "PARADIGM examples only". Putin does not fit the criteria that has been consistently used on this page for other leaders. Wether it fits the criteria of a source who is not an expert on the subject is irrelevant. Again, if you mention Putin you are being political; otherwise, mention everybody who has been already removed from this page, as I'm sure news outlets stating simmilar things (like with regards to Khomeni) can be easily found through google. Lets try to be fair here.
After reading the oft-changing article for a while and the comments in the discussion page, I feel that the articles imprints on the reader biased views of what is a cult of personality, and who is elegible to one. All examples given in the article refer to political figures; They are all generally considered "evil" (Mussolinni, Hitler, Mao-Tse-Tung, etc...)and most of them (except for North Korean) are dead. How come only political figures can have cults of personalty? And of those, how come only "negative" ones? The United States uses extensively the idea that its own leaders are infalible, great, examples of righteousness, supremely gifted, etc etc etc. Kennedy, Lincoln, Washington... Also, a following of non political figures is very proeminent especifically in the USA, Elvis being the greater example (such followings also happen in Japan's Idols, in a somewhat diferent matter, different enough to prevent us from using cult of personality to that). I just wished to check if Im the one whos got my views mixed up, or f others feel the same LtDoc (talk) 16:51, 23 November 2007 (UTC)
I am going to reinsert Saparmurat Niyazov, also known as 'Turkmenbashi,' back into the article (with proper citations, of course). The recently deceased Niyazov has long been viewed as a prime example of a dictator who imposed a strong cult of personality on his country. The man renamed the months of the year after himself and his family, banned almost all books other than his own, built many monuments of and to himself across the country, including Turkmenistan's largest structure, a statue of himself that rotates so as to always face the sun. If you type 'cult of personality' into the Columbia International Affairs Online (CIAO) database, arguably the best academic database for international relations available, the first three articles are about Niyazov. You get similar results with the JSTOR database. With google you also get similar results, though you need to include 'government' in the search as otherwise you end up with lyrics to the song of the same name... Anyways, I just wanted to justify his inclusion here given how contentious this article has been. --The Way (talk) 06:34, 29 January 2008 (UTC)
Would the worship of Bhumibol Adulyadej be considered a cult of personality? He is head of state. He is called "the Great". He is seen as a half-god. It is illegal to criticize him. Not to mention the pictures in people's homes and all the monuments. // Liftarn (talk)
"I'm a Cult of Personality" I forget who it's by... If someone knows, I think there should be a reference to it somewhere.76.26.177.78 (talk) 01:53, 10 March 2008 (UTC)
"Other undemocratic leaders with such cults include leaders such as Eva Peron of Argentina and her husband Juan."
I propose this paragraph should be changed since while peronism is clearly a personality cult, it is by no means "undemocratic". perón was president of argentina 3 times, always elected by voting. and in fact one of those times, he was thrown out of power by a military coup. In the other hand, Eva was in fact subject of personality cult, but she was never a leader, she never held any charges. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 190.216.0.158 (talk) 19:04, 26 June 2008 (UTC)
youd think he'd be on here, what with being worshiped by objectivist wierdos here as god —Preceding unsigned comment added by 208.100.229.144 (talk) 19:31, 29 June 2008 (UTC)
I think it'd be worth mentioning Sen. Obama in this article.. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.151.173.229 (talk) 04:39, 21 August 2008 (UTC)
agreed. added. quit vandalizing my revisions. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.4.102.102 (talk) 05:08, 21 August 2008 (UTC)
Considering the article states "A cult of personality or personality cult arises when a country's leader uses mass media to create a heroic public image through unquestioning flattery and praise," we'd at least have to wait until he's president, then we'd have to watch him put up statues of himself all over the place, and banners with his face two stories high with the caption "Our Exalted Leader". Then you'd have a good case. In the meantime, being popular with a select percentage of the population and having some over-zealous fans doesn't cut it. If Reagan, whose name or likeness is featured is just about every county in the nation, doesn't make the cut, certainly Obama doesn't. -R. fiend (talk) 15:54, 8 October 2008 (UTC)
The mass media voluntarily glorifies obama through unquestioning flattery and praise and obama's advisors work very closely with the media. obama cultists already consider him to be de-facto president. therefore this article applies. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 134.134.139.70 (talk) 17:46, 8 October 2008 (UTC)
Maybe you should go watch the linked video, or listen to Chris Matthews talking about "electricity running up his leg" when the Great Leader speaks, or the halo-angelic rolling stones and time magazine covers. that's obviously cult-like and nobody needs some retarded foxnews anchor to say so... except you because you obviously need a strawman to beat on. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 134.134.139.71 (talk) 19:18, 8 October 2008 (UTC)
not surprising you're not interested in providing any better counterexamples other than your retarded Reagan reference, even though Reagan was continually trashed by the media all 8 years in office. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 134.134.139.71 (talk) 20:54, 8 October 2008 (UTC)
Now you're just being facetious. I added another video of the obama cult for your enjoyment. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.117.210.91 (talk) 00:00, 9 October 2008 (UTC)
I think its been established that democratically elected leaders do not belong here. I argued for them, but it seems like the other side has won out and upholding precedence does have its benefits. I also agree with the idea that there have been many democratically elected leaders who could be said to have a cult of personality, Reagan notably, given efforts to name a building after him in every county of the US (or efforts to put him on the dime or put his head on Mt. Rushmore), even before his death. But this opens up the floodgates to political pandering and it is worth keeping those gates closed. Evan7257 (talk) 05:52, 17 October 2008 (UTC)
Dr. Entropy (talk) 23:56, 21 October 2008 (UTC)Dr. Entropy 21-OCT-2008, 19:47hrs (Eastern) Dr. Entropy (talk) 23:56, 21 October 2008 (UTC)
I too think that Barack Obama belongs in here. True, he's not a leader, but he could become one. And even people on the left are saying he's become dangerously close to a CoP. SOURCE: http://www.nytimes.com/2008/02/11/opinion/11krugman.html
(Granted, it is an Op-Ed article, but it makes the point.)
Let's not also forget that he now has his own Votive. Seriously: SOURCE: http://corner.nationalreview.com/post/?q=NTQzNWU3YjliYzQwNDQwYjE1Y2U0MzA5NjU1MTYyZWY
There are also many other articles out there, but these two are news organizations and therefore are RS.
For my money (and this next is my OPINION) Obama belongs in this article, the MAIN article and not confined to the talk page.
And don't tell me about having my "Hannity" points down, please. Dispute the facts, if you reply at all. We are after all, all adults here, ne?
23:56, 21 October 2008 (UTC)Dr. Entropy 19:55hrs 21-OCT-2008 (END REVISION) Dr. Entropy (talk) 23:56, 21 October 2008 (UTC)
An objective observer would definitely agree that there is a cult of personality surrounding Obama, and that Obama fits the definition provided on Wikipedia perfectly. As far as not being a leader yet, Obama is already a Senator. That fits the definition of a national leader. That Obama has achieved a cult of personality at a level that is usually only achievable by a leader/dictator of an entire country only reinforces the argument that Obama's cult powers are on a level the world has never before seen. He's not even President of the United States yet, and already the media and many in the public attribute to him qualities that are normally only ascribed to deities (e.g. able to "heal the planet"). I am pretty sure that no other political campaign in the history of democratic countries has ever employed to the same degreee the physical-face-of-the-candidate imagery that we have seen not only a "few fanatics" in the public use, or the news media, but the official Obama campaign itself. His likeness is everywhere. It is silly that people on here would argue that there is no cult of personality surrounding Obama and that he doesn't belong in this article. It can only mean that not only is American democracy weak to Obama's cult powers, but even the supposedly-more-enlightened Wikipedia community is not immune. God help us. 71.185.143.78 (talk) 17:45, 31 October 2008 (UTC)
Dr. Entropy (talk) 22:59, 19 November 2008 (UTC) I hope I got this right...still learning how to use this bumblebee, so I'm gonna screw up! But I do need to quote from an Op-Ed article (granted, it is an Op-Ed which means it's an opinion, but I believe it to be an informed one) "I won’t try for fake evenhandedness here: most of the venom I see is coming from supporters of Mr. Obama, who want their hero or nobody. I’m not the first to point out that the Obama campaign seems dangerously close to becoming a cult of personality. We’ve already had that from the Bush administration — remember Operation Flight Suit? We really don’t want to go there again." SOURCE: http://www.nytimes.com/2008/02/11/opinion/11krugman.html?_r=1
(That fits the definition of a RS.) A few points here; Mr Krugman says that he's not the first to point out that the Obama campaign is coming close to a CoP. While there is no consensus, there is debate on that subject. I will point you to the discussion (still!) going on about the bombing of Coventry during WWII. The accusation had been made that Churchill knew that Coventry would be bombed due to Enigma messages having been decoded but that he allowed it to happen. There was (and is still) anecdotal evidence to support this conclusion, although it has been for the most part debunked. Yet that still remains on Wikipedia's page about the bombing of Coventry.
If one remains, why cannot this one be included? There is now sufficient anecdotal evidence to support the conclusion that Obama is now a CoP. His own holiday would seem (in my opinion) to be further proof. How many US presidents have had their inauguration day become a national holiday?
I believe a complete, fair, unbiased reading of the evidence would support this conclusion. Let us not forget the Washington Post article about biased coverage in the US media: SOURCE: http://voices.washingtonpost.com/the-trail/2008/10/22/study_coverage_of_mccain_much.html
But there's more: SOURCE: http://abcnews.go.com/Business/Story?id=6099188&page=1 "The sheer bias in the print and television coverage of this election campaign is not just bewildering, but appalling. And over the last few months I've found myself slowly moving from shaking my head at the obvious one-sided reporting, to actually shouting at the screen of my television and my laptop computer." He goes on to state a pro-Obama bias.
These are all news organizations, although a few are Op-Ed. They therefore, are not blogs and do (in my opinion) amount to RS and therefore provide enough anecdotal evidence about the alleged CoP around Obama.
Please note one more thing before I close: I am a newbe to Wikipedia, and I admit it! I might never learn how to correctly work this bumblebee and I admit that too. Having said that, I've been told numerous times that I have the patience of a Saint (and in all fairness, this is hearsay at best; self-aggrandizement at worst). But we are all Wikipedians here (some more 'mature' in using Wikipedia than others) and we should stive to be completely fair, uniform (in our approach) and un-biased.
It is my opinion that a fair, complete, and un-biased observer would be forced to conclude there are enough RS sources to include an statement (at the least) that Obama had in some people's opinions become a CoP. Remember, Coventry says (current as of this writing) that there had been discussion that Churchill knew that Coventry would be bombed.
Thank you for listening.
Dr. Entropy (talk) 22:59, 19 November 2008 (UTC)
Since there are people with a bias against Barack Obama trying to add ridiculous things to this page repeatedly -- and are engaging in edit wars -- I think it may be time to put a page protection on this article, at least until the election is over. 98.220.43.195 (talk) 06:19, 9 October 2008 (UTC)
The first paragraph of this article says that cults of personalities can sometimes be found in democracies, yet the article does not include any examples from democracies. Judging from this talk page people have tried to add in examples from history of cults of personality in democracies, but for various reasons, primarily political ones, they have been removed. I can think of several democratically-elected leaders, even in the last century, who have built cults of personality around themselves: Franklin D. Roosevelt, Winston Churchill, Charles DeGaulle, John F. Kennedy, Hugo Chavez, Bill Clinton, and Barack Obama are all good examples of individuals who have built massive followings around themselves that are related more through personal charisma and virtually god-like adoration than around any actual significant policy decisions or programs. Also remember that Adolf Hitler was a democratically elected leader, and anyone who denies that he had a cult of personality around himself is a fool. The fact of the matter is that democracies are fragile, and, particularly during times of strife or economic distress, it's easy for demagogiues to emerge and threaten the fabric of democratic government by making it socially unacceptable to criticize a leader. In order to maintain a healthy democracy, it is vitally important that the people maintain an attitude of detached skepticism towards their leaders and never come to see them as being more than flawed, human public servants who deserve to be questioned and challenged at every opportunity. Without including democratic leaders' cults of personality, the article is extremely biased.--Antodav2007 (talk) 03:21, 18 October 2008 (UTC)
Just posting to let someone in 'in charge' know that the link to source #1 is a dead link and needs to be moved to where that content can now be retrieved. 12.179.24.69 (talk) 06:14, 21 October 2008 (UTC)
Barack Obama should be discussed. He definitely created a cult of personality around himself during his campaign to become President of the United States. What other one-term senator from Illinois would do such a thing, or any other presidential candidate for that matter? DavidSteinle (talk) 16:59, 9 November 2008 (UTC)
reference http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/archives/barack_obamas_cult_of_personality/ 12.216.166.246 (talk) 02:21, 10 November 2008 (UTC)
Since the newest reference is a New York Times peice and is not a blog (however, it is an Op-Ed article) I believe it to be RS and have reverted the page to include the Barack Obama reference since it states an alleged CoP ... it does not state that one exists, only that it is alleged. Since Hugo Chavez is there, I believe Barack Obama must also be as well.
Intelligent comments only, please. We're all adults here, ne? —Preceding unsigned comment added by Dr. Entropy (talk • contribs) 21:04, 20 November 2008 (UTC)
That is not the point. If there is one, the other must be included. If you saw fit to leave the one for Mr Chavez until I pointed out the disparety, then I must ask why? Why remove both? If the one for Mr Chavez was acceptable and based only on opinions, why not have both?
R. fiend, bear in mind that I'm a newby still. I bear no malice towards anybody other than my ex-wife (there's that whole disclosure thing) and bear none towards you. I would like to discuss this on your talk page...and frankly, I am beginning to question your motives in this matter. I am agnostic towards all politicians, I believe the American people have been raked over the coals by far too many of all parties and all beliefs. I am editing the page back to what it was and will discuss further with you on your talk page.
Bear in mind again, that I bear you no malice, indeed bear only my ex-wife any malice at all (and she's not a politician.)
Next on your talk page. :) Dr. Entropy (talk) 22:57, 20 November 2008 (UTC)
I've moved this here from the article:
It was added to the "Examples from totalitarian regimes" section. Is anyone arguing that Venezuela is a totalitarian regime? This article used to have many examples but we cut those out to keep the article focused. Unless we have an actual discussion of the a cult of personality around Chavez we shouldn't add this material. ·:· Will Beback ·:· 22:29, 17 December 2008 (UTC)
Damn! This article doesn't even mention Eyadema (to whom no less a respectable source than The Economist attributed a personality cult in, of all things, a cover story on personality cults), and we're trying to stretch the definition to include Obama and Lincoln and Chavez. WTF? Let's cover all the generally agreed-upon personality cults before we start expanding to include less-accepted claims. Heather (talk) 02:00, 27 December 2008 (UTC)
I removed the picture of Eva Peron from the article. Aside from the fact that references to her are uncited, there are many people who deserve to be on this page before Evita herself. -- Andrew Parodi (talk) 20:02, 5 January 2009 (UTC)
Imperial China (see Mandate of Heaven), ancient Egypt, Japan, the Inca, the Aztecs, Tibet, and the Roman Empire (see imperial cult) are especially noted for redefining monarchs as god-kings.
I believe that the term "redefining" is inappropriate here, because it implies that there was a different, earlier definition which was replaced. From what we know of ancient civilizations, they started out that way. It is only in modern times that the "god-king" devolved to "divine rights of kings" and then to monarchs fettered either by nobility (e.g., Magna Carta,) or by non-hereditary "parliaments" (see Rule of law.) Athenian democracy was a notable exception, but even there it came after there were leaders to whom had been attributed divine origins. (See King of Athens and Archons of Athens - who were originally taken only from the aristocracy - to get a sense of the continuum of development.)
That is why, for example, the development of CoP could only come around recently, and it explains the veneration of George Washington that was discussed above - the only paradigm that was widely known at the founding of the US was that of a monarch, and the people had just come out of several decades of hating His Majesty's government, and by extension His Majesty (George III) himself. (See the quote at Despotism#Benjamin Franklin for a sense of American's feelings.)
Thinking about this, one can see how the idea of a leader who was not destined to lead for life (or until abdicating to a successor) had to become widespread before the CoP phenomenon could arise. It is, quite simply, recidivistic. Before there were leaders whose popularity could be measured and changed, and whose longevity as a leader was determined by that popularity, a "Cult of Personality" would have just been the veneration that was considered due and proper for someone who held the power of life and death in their hands.
Interestingly, and rambling increasingly into WP:OR, I have to wonder whether Stalin's was a CoP so much as it was a continuation of obeisance to / worship of the Tsar, which had been the paradigm in the Russian Empire that the Soviet empire replaced. The rodina (motherland) was still the rodina, and "All of the Russias" still looked to the strong man in The Kremlin to regulate life and death. The contrast comes from the "enlightened" West, which had thrown off the shackles of that paradigm over the previous two centuries, most notably with the American and French Revolutions.
Whatever! :)
Anyway, going back to the quote I cited, can anyone justify the use of "redefining" with historical examples? (Yes, I know about the theories of the rise of the strongman, but if it is a given that "divinity" must be used to justify "remote" rule by a leader that the majority of subjects would never see personally in their lifetimes, then that's just the development of kingdoms and empires out of city-states. And still more of a theory than anything else.)
Hope you enjoyed my musings.... -- 192.115.133.116 (talk) 18:26, 22 January 2009 (UTC)
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