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I think adding Korean and Vietnamese equivalents when available to Chinese surnames. For an example: Zhao (pinyin: zhào, Wade-Giles: Chao, simplified Chinese: 赵, traditional Chinese: 趙, Vietnamese Triệu, Hangul (Korean) 조) will expand the readers understanding that these equivalents do exist between these 3 cultures —Preceding unsigned comment added by 129.180.1.214 (talk • contribs)
They are not always the same. What is the difference between last name and family name? "Last name" is the name that comes after the first and middle names, and is used in titles i.e. Mr. "last name" or Miss "last name". ... "Family name" is one that is shared with the family, but is not necessarily the surname.
Look for example the actor Lee Majors. His real name is Harvey Lee Yeary, but he adopted the stage name Lee Majors. His real family name is Yeary, Majors is only his (staged) last name / surname. I brought this up because i noticed on many chinese articles like Betty Ting or Kelly Lai Chen the names Ting and Lai getting mentioned as their "family name", when in fact it is only the surname of their staged names. Ting´s birthname is Tang Meili, which means Tang is her real family name, not Ting. Same with Lai, he was born as Hsi Chungchien, which means Hsi is is real family name, Lai is only his staged surname. Lai has a sister named Betty Loh Ti. She was born as Hsi Chung-i. This case just underlines what i mean. Kelly Lai and Betty Loh are siblings and have the same mother and father. The family name of both is Hsi, but their surnames are different (Lai/Loh).
I am only here to help to improve. But maybe Wikipedia should consider the possibility to seperate between "surname" and "family name", since they are not always the same. Look also the famous Samurai/Ronin Miyamoto Musashi, who was born as Shinmen Bennosuke. His real family name was Shinmen, his (staged) surname Miyamoto. --Niten Doraku (talk) 19:32, 8 December 2020 (UTC)
multiple users seem to remove Japan, from the beginning sentence. which is vandalism, japanese can also have chinese surnames, ryukyuans for example being the most obvious, and a lot of japanese also have a chinese name but with a japanese pronounciation. this is fact. i can list a couple out of my head. but the question is, why do these users remove japan? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 84.26.190.194 (talk) 08:42, 20 April 2022 (UTC)
It seems the sections Xing and Shi contain substantial content verbatim identical to the articles Chinese ancestral surname and Chinese clan name, respectively. Unsure what the protocol is in this situation, but surely the content will desychronize rapidly in this state. Courtesy ping to @Immanuelle:, who has contributed a lot of the text in all locations. Folly Mox (talk) 08:32, 25 July 2022 (UTC)
Problem statement: Confusing presentation of the two types of Chinese surname in Template:Infobox royalty calls for the code to be changed, which requires consensus.
Topic area background: There used to be two types of Chinese surname: 姓 (xing, aristocratic clan name; applied to ancestral temple groups) and 氏 (shi, lineage name; grew around geographic locations). The distinction was lost early. Xing fell out of use, but the term xing adopted the general meaning "surname". For early figures, it's important to distinguish these two kinds of surnames. For everyone else, xing in the infobox denotes "family name".
Specific template issue: Template:Infobox royalty therefore has two primary modes in this regard:
only xing has a value, displays link to Chinese surname with the text Family Name.
xing and shi both have a value, display link to Chinese surname without appropriate section anchors, with text roughly reversed from what is correct (i.e. xing is called Family Name and shi is called Clan Name).
(This is confusing enough that when I encountered it for the first time, as someone familiar with the topic material, I had to go read the Chinese version of the article on zh-wiki to figure out what the infobox was trying to convey.)
Proposal: Add logic to Template:Infobox royalty such that when both types of surnames have a value:
family_name
) displays Ancestral Clan, linking to Chinese surname#Xingclan_name
) displays Branch Lineage, linking to Chinese surname#ShiFor these displayed terms, see Chinese surname. As to why the lineage name is held in a parameter named clan_name
, it is because the term "clan" is not well-defined in English in the field of Chinese anthropology, and often refers to neither of these concepts.
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
family_name
; the parameter used to hold 氏 is called clan_name
. The display text for these fields is, respectively, Family nameand
Clan name. Both display texts link to this article, with no anchors to either section Chinese surname#Xing or Chinese surname#Shi. Arbitrary example: Xiong Yong. Issue: Our article defines 姓 as
ancestral clan name(emphasis added), and 氏 as
lineage name. This is correct, but confusingly implies the reverse reading of the displayed text in the infoboxes.Many instances of Template:Infobox royalty only pass values to the
family_name
parameter, since the distinction between the two kinds of surnames dissolved early. See list of articles where clan_name
has no value (128 articles), and list of articles where the parameter clan_name
is not even named in the template call (61 articles). So there are 189 articles where we do want family_name
to display Family name, and link to Chinese surname with no section anchor. Proposal: add conditional logic to Template:Infobox royalty where both
family_name
and clan_name
are passed a value, such that in those cases the displayed text for family_name
reads Ancestral clanand the displayed text for
clan_name
reads Branch lineage. Optionally, we can also change their link targets to the #Xing and #Shi anchors at this article.Open to other wordings for the display text, but I feel "name" is redundant in both cases. The word "clan" usually translates to 宗族 or similar in Chinese, which is a concept that postdates the biographies in question, so I typically use
ancestral temple surnameor
ancestral temple kinship groupto translate 姓 in early Chinese topics, but I think
ancestral clanmakes sense both in this article and in the infobox. One article that contains correct representation for both kinds of surname is Qin Shi Huang, but it achieves that effect by overloading the
full_name
parameter, which is not scalable.
Folly Mox (talk) 06:26, 30 April 2023 (UTC)
Folly Mox (talk) 03:27, 14 May 2023 (UTC)
|surname= Bob ({{lang|zh|巴}}, ''[[xing (surname)|xing]]'')<br>Dole ({{lang|zh|豆}}, ''[[shi (surname)|shi]]'')
random [and] even-worse, since those are the terms used in the article to which this talkpage is attached, Chinese surname, which is linked from the infobox as an explainer. Why not use the same terms in the infobox as we do in the article explaining them, instead of reversing them confusingly?I'm sympathetic to the argument that the distinction is not well understood even in modern China, but I don't agree that it's a reason not to try to distinguish them in a way that's at least internally consistent. I'll reiterate that the impetus for this proposal was an experience I had where, despite having background knowledge regarding the 姓–氏 distinction, our infobox presented the information so badly that I left the website to understand wtf it was trying to convey. It's a niche problem, but it's not not a problem. Folly Mox (talk) 17:00, 20 May 2023 (UTC)
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