Talk:COVID-19 misinformation/Archive 6

This is an archive of past discussions about COVID-19 misinformation. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page.

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Add section about debunking/fact checking that itself has become misinformation

Example: APNews "No evidence ivermectin is a miracle drug against COVID-19" fact checking article claiming

No evidence has been shown to prove that ivermectin works against COVID-19

However there is a plethora of scientific articles and studies (including double blind placebo) that indeed show that it is an effective and safe treatment. Discussion about journalistic integrity of the AP could also be interesting.

Collapse long list of unreliable and/or irrelevant sources, copy-pasted from the "fake" journal article at ivmmeta.com

References: 1.Afsar et al., SSRN., Ivermectin Use Associated with Reduced Duration of COVID-19 Febrile Illness in a Community Setting, https://papers.ssrn.com/sol3/papers.cfm?abstract_id=3734478. 2.Ahmed et al., International Journal of Infectious Diseases, doi:10.1016/j.ijid.2020.11.191, A five day course of ivermectin for the treatment of COVID-19 may reduce the duration of illness, https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S1201971220325066. 3.Alam et al., European Journal ofMedical and Health Sciences, doi:10.24018/ejmed.2020.2.6.599, Ivermectin as Pre-exposure Prophylaxis for COVID-19 among Healthcare Providers in a Selected Tertiary Hospital in Dhaka – An Observational Study, https://ejmed.org/index.php/ejmed/article/view/599. 4.Altman, D., BMJ, doi:10.1136/bmj.d2304, How to obtain the P value from a confidence interval, https://www.bmj.com/content/343/bmj.d2304. 5.Altman (B) et al., BMJ, doi:10.1136/bmj.d2090, How to obtain the confidence interval from a P value, https://www.bmj.com/content/343/bmj.d2090. 6.Anglemyer et al., Cochrane Database of Systematic Reviews 2014, Issue 4, doi:10.1002/14651858.MR000034.pub2, Healthcare outcomes assessed with observational study designs compared with those assessed in randomized trials, https://www.cochranelibrary.com/cd..0.1002/14651858.MR000034.pub2/full. 7.Behera et al., medRxiv, doi:10.1101/2020.10.29.20222661v1, Role of ivermectin in the prevention of COVID-19 infection among healthcare workers in India: A matched case-control study, https://www.medrxiv.org/content/10.1101/2020.10.29.20222661v1. 8.Bernigaud et al., Annals of Dermatology and Venereology, doi:10.1016/j.annder.2020.09.231, Ivermectin benefit: from scabies to COVID-19, an example of serendipity, https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S015196382030627X. 9.Budhiraja et al., medRxiv, doi:10.1101/2020.11.16.20232223, Clinical Profile of First 1000 COVID-19 Cases Admitted at Tertiary Care Hospitals and the Correlates of their Mortality: An Indian Experience, https://www.medrxiv.org/content/10.1101/2020.11.16.20232223v1. 10.Cadegiani et al., medRxiv, doi:10.1101/2020.10.31.20223883, Early COVID-19 Therapy with Azithromycin Plus Nitazoxanide, Ivermectin or Hydroxychloroquine in Outpatient Settings Significantly Reduced Symptoms Compared to Known Outcomes in Untreated Patients, https://www.medrxiv.org/content/10.1101/2020.10.31.20223883v1. 11.Camprubí et al., PLoS ONE, 15:11, doi:10.1371/journal.pone.0242184, Lack of efficacy of standard doses of ivermectin in severe COVID-19 patients, https://journals.plos.org/plosone/..le?id=10.1371/journal.pone.0242184. 12.Carvallo et al., medRxiv, doi:10.1101/2020.09.10.20191619, Safety and Efficacy of the combined use of ivermectin, dexamethasone, enoxaparin and aspirin against COVID-19, https://www.medrxiv.org/content/10.1101/2020.09.10.20191619v1. 13.Carvallo (B) et al., Journal of Biomedical Research and Clinical Investigation, doi:10.31546/2633-8653.1007, Study of the Efficacy and Safety of Topical Ivermectin + Iota-Carrageenan in the Prophylaxis against COVID-19 in Health Personnel, https://medicalpressopenaccess.com/upload/1605709669_1007.pdf. 14.Carvallo (C) et al., NCT04425850, Usefulness of Topic Ivermectin and Carrageenan to Prevent Contagion of Covid 19 (IVERCAR), https://clinicaltrials.gov/ct2/show/results/NCT04425850. 15.Chaccour et al., Research Square, doi:10.21203/rs.3.rs-116547/v1, The effect of early treatment with ivermectin on viral load, symptoms and humoral response in patients with mild COVID-19: a pilot, double-blind, placebo-controlled, randomized clinical trial, https://www.researchsquare.com/article/rs-116547/v1. 16.Chachar et al., International Journal of Sciences, 9:31-35, doi:10.18483/ijSci.2378, Effectiveness of Ivermectin in SARS-CoV-2/COVID-19 Patients, https://www.ijsciences.com/pub/article/2378. 17.Concato et al., NEJM, 342:1887-1892, doi:10.1056/NEJM200006223422507, https://www.nejm.org/doi/full/10.1056/nejm200006223422507. 18.Deaton et al., Social Science & Medicine, 210, doi:10.1016/j.socscimed.2017.12.005, Understanding and misunderstanding randomized controlled trials, https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0277953617307359. 19.Deng, H., PyMeta, Python module for meta-analysis, http://www.pymeta.com/. 20.Elgazzar et al., Research Square, doi:10.21203/rs.3.rs-100956/v2, Efficacy and Safety of Ivermectin for Treatment and prophylaxis of COVID-19 Pandemic, https://www.researchsquare.com/article/rs-100956/v3. 21.Elgazzar (B) et al., Research Square, doi:10.21203/rs.3.rs-100956/v2, Efficacy and Safety of Ivermectin for Treatment and prophylaxis of COVID-19 Pandemic, https://www.researchsquare.com/article/rs-100956/v3. 22.Espitia-Hernandez et al., Biomedical Research, 31:5, Effects of Ivermectin-azithromycin-cholecalciferol combined therapy on COVID-19 infected patients: A proof of concept study, https://www.biomedres.info/biomedi..-proof-of-concept-study-14435.html. 23.Gorial et al., medRxiv, doi:10.1101/2020.07.07.20145979, Effectiveness of Ivermectin as add-on Therapy in COVID-19 Management (Pilot Trial), https://www.medrxiv.org/content/10.1101/2020.07.07.20145979v1. 24.Hashim et al., medRxiv, doi:10.1101/2020.10.26.20219345, Controlled randomized clinical trial on using Ivermectin with Doxycycline for treating COVID-19 patients in Baghdad, Iraq, https://www.medrxiv.org/content/10.1101/2020.10.26.20219345v1. 25.Hellwig et al., International Journal of Antimicrobial Agents, doi:10.1016/j.ijantimicag.2020.106248, A COVID-19 Prophylaxis? Lower incidence associated with prophylactic administration of Ivermectin, https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0924857920304684. 26.Khan et al., Archivos de Bronconeumología, doi:10.1016/j.arbres.2020.08.007, Ivermectin treatment may improve the prognosis of patients with COVID-19, https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S030028962030288X. 27.Lee et al., Arch Intern Med., 2011, 171:1, 18-22, doi:10.1001/archinternmed.2010.482, Analysis of Overall Level of Evidence Behind Infectious Diseases Society of America Practice Guidelines, https://jamanetwork.com/journals/j..nternalmedicine/fullarticle/226373. 28.Mahmud et al., Clinical Trial Results, NCT04523831, Clinical Trial of Ivermectin Plus Doxycycline for the Treatment of Confirmed Covid-19 Infection, https://clinicaltrials.gov/ct2/show/results/NCT04523831?view=results. 29.McLean et al., Open Forum Infect. Dis. September 2015, 2:3, doi:10.1093/ofid/ofv100, Impact of Late Oseltamivir Treatment on Influenza Symptoms in the Outpatient Setting: Results of a Randomized Trial, https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4525010/. 30.Niaee et al., Research Square, doi:10.21203/rs.3.rs-109670/v1, Ivermectin as an adjunct treatment for hospitalized adult COVID-19 patients: A randomized multi-center clinical trial, https://www.researchsquare.com/article/rs-109670/v1. 31.Nichol et al., Injury, 2010, doi: 10.1016/j.injury.2010.03.033, Challenging issues in randomised controlled trials, https://www.injuryjournal.com/article/S0020-1383(10)00233-0/fulltext. 32.Podder et al., IMC J. Med. Science, 14:2, July 2020, Outcome of ivermectin treated mild to moderate COVID-19 cases: a single-centre, open-label, randomised controlled study, http://imcjms.com/registration/journal_abstract/353. 33.Rajter et al., Chest, doi:10.1016/j.chest.2020.10.009, Use of Ivermectin is Associated with Lower Mortality in Hospitalized Patients with COVID-19 (ICON study), https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0012369220348984. 34.Shouman et al., NCT04422561, Use of Ivermectin as a Prophylactic Option in Asymptomatic Family Close Contacts with Patients of COVID-19, https://clinicaltrials.gov/Provide..cs/61/NCT04422561/Prot_SAP_000.pdf. 35.Soto-Becerra et al., medRxiv, doi:10.1101/2020.10.06.20208066, Real-World Effectiveness of hydroxychloroquine, azithromycin, and ivermectin among hospitalized COVID-19 patients: Results of a target trial emulation using observational data from a nationwide Healthcare System in Peru, https://www.medrxiv.org/content/10.1101/2020.10.06.20208066v1. 36.Spoorthi et al., IAIM, 2020, 7:10, 177-182, Utility of Ivermectin and Doxycycline combination for the treatment of SARSCoV-2, http://iaimjournal.com/wp-content/..oads/2020/10/iaim_2020_0710_23.pdf. 37.Sweeting et al., Statistics in Medicine, doi:10.1002/sim.1761, What to add to nothing? Use and avoidance of continuity corrections in meta‐analysis of sparse data, https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1002/sim.1761. 38.Treanor et al., JAMA, 2000, 283:8, 1016-1024, doi:10.1001/jama.283.8.1016, Efficacy and Safety of the Oral Neuraminidase Inhibitor Oseltamivir in Treating Acute Influenza: A Randomized Controlled Trial, https://jamanetwork.com/journals/jama/fullarticle/192425. 39.Vallejos et al., Coronavirus in Argentina: Warnings and evidence on the consumption of ivermectin against Covid-19, https://totalnewsagency.com/2020/1..de-ivermectina-contra-el-covid-19/. 40.Zhang et al., JAMA, 80:19, 1690, doi:10.1001/jama.280.19.1690, What's the relative risk? A method of correcting the odds ratio in cohort studies of common outcomes, https://jamanetwork.com/journals/jama/fullarticle/188182. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Adriaandh (talk • contribs) 05:22, 31 December 2020 (UTC)

Adriaandh, thanks for the feedback. Are there any articles about fact checking websites fact checking wrong? If so, feel free to post some URL's on this talk page. If not, then this might be against our original research policy. –Novem Linguae (talk) 07:15, 31 December 2020 (UTC)

Novem_Linguae, Here is an article regarding problematic conflicts of interest of fact checking websites: https://www.forbes.com/sites/kalevleetaru/2016/12/22/the-daily-mail-snopes-story-and-fact-checking-the-fact-checkers/?sh=4d36051e227f

I think a claim that anything is a "miracle drug" is ipso facto misinformation, but the precise situation is set out at Ivermectin#COVID-19. We are not saying anything unusual in the article here: APNews is being cited simply to source a statement about how a video went viral. Alexbrn (talk) 08:02, 31 December 2020 (UTC)

Alexbrn, Saying that a drug is a miracle drug does not make it ipso facto misinformation - that is the main problem with most fact checking sites - they latch onto a single point of a statement that they might be able to "debunk" and then discard the whole statement as "fake news", much as was done to the huge list of scientific studies that has just been marked as "fake" right here without giving any references or motivation as to why these studies should be disregarded. If a cheap and safe drug is found that merely reduces the probability of contracting COVID by 20% it can be argued to be a miracle drug, especially to those 20% of people that will not die and their families. While it does appear that with the correct dosing Ivermectin provides a much higher level of protection.

Regarding the existing wikpedia article on Ivermectin, it is also falsely detracting from the effectiveness of Ivermectin. It references a slightly outdated meta-analisys of only 4 studies that actually showed Ivermectin is effective at all stages of disease and uses that reference as motivation for saying "There is only very weak evidence of ivermectin's benefit when used as an add-on therapy for people with non-severe COVID-19; there is no evidence for people with severe disease".

while the actual meta analysis in the study found: "The overall result suggests that there was a statistically significant reduction in all-cause mortality with the additional use of ivermectin compared to usual therapy only (P=0.04).Since the search period mentioned in our protocol registered on PROSPERO was from inception till August 31, 2020, data from the study by Hashim et alhas not included in the primary meta-analysis as this trial was published in the preprint server in October 2020 (21). In this study, out of 140 COVID-19 patients, 70 were randomized to receive ivermectin plus standard treatment and the rest 70 received standard treatment only. In the ivermectin plus standard treatment arm, the mortality was 2 compared to 6 in the standard treatment only arm. As a secondary analysis, when this study was included, the test for heterogeneity for the pooled studies was not significant (Chi2=0.45, df=2, (P=0.80), I2=0%) and pooled OR was 0.50 (95%CI: 0.29 to 0.88). This suggested that addition of ivermectin significantly reduced the mortality (P= 0.02)."

The meta-analysis is actually very positive for the use of Ivermectin especially in early treatment, but it is made out to say that it is not the case.

Finally, if the APNews article is only to source a statement about how a video went viral, where is the reference that is used to "prove" that it is actually fake news that Ivermectin is a very compelling treatment for Covid that could already have saved thousands of lives?

Miracles aren't real. And your commentary on PMID 33227231 fails to account for the very low quality of the evidence. Alexbrn (talk) 17:21, 31 December 2020 (UTC)

Seriously? You are going to dismiss a panel of medical experts's opinion on their representative's colloquial use of the word miraculous? You are (and wikipedia in general) really showing a strong bias on this topic. Quoting media outlets unfounded claims that the testimony of experts in their field amounts to "promote fringe theories" but not willing to quote real scientific studies showing the effectiveness of a drug because it is not of sufficient quality. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Adriaandh (talk • contribs) 10:31, 4 January 2021 (UTC)

Have a read of this review: URGENT COVID-19 information, I presume the Director of the Evidence-based Medicine Consultancy is also a quack and once again, the APNews`s fact checker BEATRICE DUPUY's former experience at Teen Vogue makes her opinion ("AP’S ASSESSMENT: False. There’s no evidence ivermectin has been proven a safe or effective treatment against COVID-19.") carry more weight than these respected doctors and experts in their fields. I really cannot see how it can be ethical for Wikipedia to quote an APNews article to shape peoples opinion regarding a pandemic. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Adriaandh (talk • contribs) 02:48, 6 January 2021 (UTC)

As soon as I read this, I founded the Evidence-based Medicine Super-Consultancy and the Extremely-Evidence-based Great Medicine Super-Duper-Consultancy. I am director of both now and I am telling you you are wrong.

There are less than a thousand Google hits for "Evidence-based Medicine Consultancy". Seems to be not very well-known. Let's wait until we can tell from secondary sources if they are a reliable source, OK? --Hob Gadling (talk) 09:53, 6 January 2021 (UTC)

Perhaps you should have the same level of mistrust of the author of the APNews article? If you actually do some investigation you will find that Theresa A Lawrie actually has a PhD and that she has 110 publications going as far back as 1996. You will also note that the Evidence-based Medicine Super-Consultancy has a lot of previously published work, easily found on their website https://www.e-bmc.co.uk/ under "work" section. You will also note that their domain was registered 2013-10-02, so not yesterday.Adriaandh (talk) 15:37, 16 January 2021 (UTC)

This is a self-published website from a one-director UK limited company, in business as a consultancy. Obviously not suitable for anything on Wikipedia. Alexbrn (talk) 16:53, 16 January 2021 (UTC)

+1. Completely unsuitable for Wikipedia.Britishfinance (talk) 17:11, 16 January 2021 (UTC)

Ok, so let's keep objectively easily provable completely false "fact checking" articles from a fashion critic up as factual and correct, but let's not take a respected medical research company as a "second source" — Preceding unsigned comment added by User:Adriaandh (talk • contribs) 15:37, 16 January 2021 (UTC)

Respected by you and who else? --Hob Gadling (talk) 15:24, 18 January 2021 (UTC)

Yup. Advocates are learning to make their stuff look like journal articles (and expect a rise in fake "fact checked" woo). Out there on the internets there is a huge swell of "I want to believe" ivermectin believers. But the reputable science is what it is, and as Wikipedia relays. Fortunately some high-quality studies are underway and the WHO is set to analyse them soon - Wikipedia can then report that. Until then it is imperative Wikipedia is not waylaid by irrational enthusiam. Alexbrn (talk) 10:12, 6 January 2021 (UTC)

I am glad Alex you moved this out IVM atricle, and i wont repeat what i said there. I still think you are not NPOV with the AP vs FLCCC dispute. In the internet(S?) you will find high quality studies: Let me briefly summurize the Bangladesh study: 180 receive STND treatment, 3 die. 180 receive IVM+STND treatment 0 die, 2 get isofagitis. This study may have costed 0-1-2-3 lives. This is peer reviewed and significant result: Ask the survivors about miracles. So any honest and peer reviewed researh is above any AP article or an Oncologist(!). I am glad you didn't include the South African position too. I am sorry and offended for the slanderous term quacks. I would not consider WHO as a highly trusted source, given their VERY late declaration of pandemic. Regardless the, as of 1/14/2021, neutral stance of NIH wrt IVM, @FDA still advises against it. Actually they state that they "fund N€W interventions in the CTAP (accelerated approval) research". If its old (GCAS)safe and cheap treatment: ignore and let them die policy? Where is the USA/EU funded high quality research? That is a "mirracle"! Artemon ge (talk) 11:02, 15 January 2021 (UTC)

You are citing unreliable sources, see WP:MEDRS for Wikipedia's medical sourcing guidelines, by which the WHO is super-reliable. Alexbrn (talk) 12:41, 15 January 2021 (UTC).

Is the APNews a reliable medical journal?Adriaandh (talk) 15:44, 16 January 2021 (UTC)

It is a reliable news source, and its being used to source news. Alexbrn (talk) 16:53, 16 January 2021 (UTC)

Aremon actually slightly understates the case. If you read carefully, the USFDA position on the use of Ivermectin for the treatment and prevention of COVID-19 is that the ANIMAL FORMULATION of Ivermectin should not be used for the prevention and treatment of COVID-19 in humans. The word "Ivermectin" is not qualified but the products they are discussing are for "Animal & Veterinary". Ivermectin has the full USFDA approval for use in humans for all indications. The USFDA is a regulatory body. Their function is to approve or disapprove new drugs/devices. They do not provide guidance to physicians or patients on the best treatment options. --Vrtlsclpl (talk) 13:05, 18 January 2021 (UTC)

No drug has "full USFDA approval for use in humans for all indications". None – not even aspirin. Marketing approval (what the drug company is legally allowed to advertise the drug for) is always specific to the named indication(s) (an 'indication' is what science says the drug actually works for. Sometimes the FDA approval matches the scientific indications, and sometimes it doesn't). The fact that it's legal to prescribe drugs off-label (that is, the FDA gives approval for marketing the drug for Scaryitis, but your doctor prescribes it to you for headaches) does not mean that the FDA has approved it for headaches, or for anything other than Scaryitis. WhatamIdoing (talk) 21:55, 19 January 2021 (UTC)

Train attack on hospital ship

I've removed the blurb about the train attack on the hospital ship, because it's not really "misinformation". The attacker might have been under the influence of some misinformation (or, I don't know, Paranoid delusions?), but the attack itself isn't misinformation, and there hasn't been any misinformation about the attack (that I know of). WhatamIdoing (talk) 00:28, 20 January 2021 (UTC)

Ivermectin section

The entire section is not written from a WP:NPOV. There is a wealth of information indicating that Ivermectin is effective both as a prophylactic medication and as a treatment in all phases of COVID-19. Today the NIH revised their position on Ivermectin, removing their guidance that doctors should not prescribe ivermectin except as part of a clinical trial, replacing it with a neutral stance, saying "currently there are insufficient data to recommend either for or against the use of ivermectin for the treatment of COVID-19". This is the same status as convalescent plasma. This section needs to be rewritten from a NPOV, stating that Ivermectin is being used in many regions of the world, and that it is being researched. Tvaughan1 (talk) 03:45, 15 January 2021 (UTC)

Not approved by FDA; NIH say evidence is too poor to decide anything; latest MEDRS reviews say the same. These are the kind of WP:MEDRS we use. For the "infodemic" aspect, we have a good SBM piece about how it's being touted on the internets as a "miracle cure". Alexbrn (talk) 16:46, 15 January 2021 (UTC)

I agree with Tvaughan1. The physicians who testified to the US NIH COVID-19 Treatment Guidelines Panel issued a press release. They state that Ivermectin is now a treatment option for COVID-19 in the US as it has been in many nations around the world. If Ivermectin in COVID-19 is misinformation, the USNIH is the primary source of that misinformation. --Vrtlsclpl (talk) 05:52, 18 January 2021 (UTC)

The purpose of this page is to report on misinformation, not propagate it! Please stop linking to such sites. Alexbrn (talk) 06:03, 18 January 2021 (UTC)

Can whoever reverted my reference to the financial times article as counterpoint to the misinformation please explain why that is not a relevant or reliable source, while the blog post of dr Gorski is? The one is from a specialist in this field doing actual research on the subject, while the other is just a doctor with an online following making unsubstantiated claims. Adriaandh (talk) 14:02, 20 January 2021 (UTC)

The ft.com is not even about misinformation; the Science-Based Medicine piece is. What is more, the FT piece was cherry picked and used to for biomedical content, for which it is unreliable. For the current state of knowledge on ivermectin and COVID-19, see our ivermectin article. Alexbrn (talk) 14:10, 20 January 2021 (UTC)

Fact Sheet: Activity at the Wuhan Institute of Virology

Fact Sheet: Activity at the Wuhan Institute of Virology

https://web.archive.org/web/20210116010946/https://www.state.gov/fact-sheet-activity-at-the-wuhan-institute-of-virology/ — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2001:569:BE21:7200:0:0:0:3 (talk) 08:49, 24 January 2021 (UTC)

The Origin of Covid-19 has not been conclusively established, contrary to the conclusory statements in the "Origin Misinformation" section

There are a number of articles from legitimate sources, including articles published this month (January 2021) questioning whether Covid-19 may have been an engineered/manipulated virus based on SARS-CoV-2. The conclusion that it was a natural occurring virus has not been conclusively established and stating so seems to be an attempt to stifle inquiry into the subject. I suggest that the tone of the article, and this section in particular be modified.

IAmBecomeDeath (talk) 08:09, 25 January 2021 (UTC)

Do you have sources? doktorb _words^deeds 08:15, 25 January 2021 (UTC)

He doesnt need sources to protest a removal. And there were already sources, but an account named User:Alexbrn killed the entire section "Bio-engineered virus" on 10 January with a dubious explanation. Lets put it back in. Alexpl (talk)