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The article contains much information about the subject's films including an awards box and several reviews. This would normally be fine in BLP's, however, in this case there are already articles for each of these films, and there are already hatnotes within the article for each of those films. Including all of this extra information seems overtly WP:PROMO and WP:COATRACKish. I propose that this information be limited and would like local editors feedback. Thanks! Spintendo 04:42, 16 February 2023 (UTC)
The following accolades information pertaining to the living person in this article associated with the films and references has been reformatted and consolidated from prior awards / nominations tables within sub-sections of each film. @Spintendo would you kindly review the proposed modifications in an attempt to improve the article structure based on the prior formatting and placement of information that had been published. Based on my research of other articles similar to this subject matter, this is more inline with many other filmmaker accolades. Many thanks for your consideration. Jeremycohen333 (talk) 03:37, 28 March 2023 (UTC)
Jeremycohen333 (talk) 03:37, 28 March 2023 (UTC)
![]() | This edit request by an editor with a conflict of interest was declined. |
Hello Wikipedians, I’m proposing additional detailed information and citations that have been researched and prepared to add to the section "Icarus" on behalf of the subject Bryan Fogel and events surrounding his direct actions and involvement in the events documented in the making of this film.
Your review and approval of this topic is appreciated. When you have finished reviewing the proposed changes, please indicate if this update may be directly edited to the article section.
In the years between 2012-2014, Fogel found himself in a career depression struggling financially and questioning whether he should continue in the entertainment business. At The Oslo Freedom Forum in 2019, Fogel stated: “And here I was, I was almost 40 years old and I was, in what I call, director’s jail, and I didn't know what I was gonna do with my life, and I didn't know how I was gonna pick up those pieces.”[1]
A life long cyclist, Fogel had followed Lance Armstrong’s rise and fall and was fascinated that while Lance had ultimately confessed to doping throughout his career, that he hadn’t actually been caught or had ever failed a doping test despite avoiding detection from 500 plus tests. When it was learned that Armstrong had in fact been using performance enhancing drugs, Fogel became fascinated with how Lance had been able to carry on without ever testing positive or being caught for doping.[2]
What struck Fogel was that clearly the anti-doping system in sport was failing to catch cheaters. Fogel wanted to document this on camera and prove his thesis firsthand stating, “the idea I had was to prove the system in place to test athletes was bullshit.”[3]
This premise would develop into what would become Icarus, Fogel’s first documentary feature.[4]
Filming for Icarus began in May, 2014 and shortly after, Fogel connected with Russian scientist, Dr. Grigory Rodchenkov, who at the time was the director of Moscow’s WADA (World Anti-Doping Agency) laboratory.[5] Rodchenkov who had been the director of the laboratory since 2005 agreed to help Fogel personally “dope” and take performance enhancing drugs in order to test and evade positive detection for an amateur bicycling race in Europe, the Haute Route.[6]
During 2015, Fogel and Rodchenkov worked closely to document this scheme, during which time Rodchenkov was under investigation by WADA[7] for allegedly doping Russian track and field athletes.[8]
On November 10, 2015, WADA made public the findings of its year long investigation and released a report and recommendations for punishment.[9]
The report confirmed allegations against Rodchenkov, where Rodchenkov then resigned from his duties as laboratory director and Russia was suspended from all world and track events.[10]
Rodchenkov turned to Fogel to help him to escape Russia believing that if he were to stay, that he would be murdered by the FSB. Fogel then hastily arranged air tickets for Rodchenkov to come to Los Angeles in November 2015.[11]
Rodchenkov’s escape was successful and over the next several months he would reveal the full extent of Russia’ state sponsored doping program to Fogel.[12]
Rodchenkov, under a Department of Justice subpoena to appear in front of the grand jury, went to the The New York Times with Fogel in May 2016, and through three days of interviews with reporter Rebecca Ruiz and Michael Schwirtz they disclosed evidence that would be the backbone of the front page The New York Times story on May 12, 2016.[13]
Fogel and Rodchenkov alleged Russia had orchestrated state-sponsored fraud, conspiring to cheat the Olympics for decades, including the 2014 Sochi Olympics, where Rodchenkov, with the help of the Federal Security Service (FSB, formerly the KGB), changed steroid-tainted urine of the Russian national team to evade positive detection.[14]
Within a week of the New York Times story, WADA appointed Prof. Richard McLaren to investigate Dr. Rodchenkov’s allegations.[15]
As a result of McLaren’s report, Russia was suspended from participating in the 2018 Winter Olympics in South Korea under its flag, although it did send 169 athletes under the moniker "Olympic Athletes from Russia."[16]
In August 2017, Fogel met with members of the US Congress and Senate to discuss the extent of Russian tampering in global affairs, specifically the 2016 US elections.[17]
This story, which became the foundation of his feature documentary film Icarus would lead to Russia’s ban from the Olympic Games in 2018,[18] 2020 and 2022.[19]
Icarus premiered at the 2017 Sundance Film Festival[20] where it won the first ever Special Jury "Orwell Award"[21] and the first ever Audience Choice Award[22] at Sundance Film Festival London. The film was acquired in a historic $5 million sale to Netflix[23] and released worldwide on Netflix on August 4, 2017.[24]
Icarus garnered critical acclaim from both film critics and editorial publications around the globe. The New York Times described Fogel’s film Icarus as “Illuminating”[25]and Variety magazine called it “A Game Changing Documentary.”[26]
Icarus would go on to win the Academy Award for Best Documentary Feature at the 90th Academy of Motion Picture Arts and Sciences in 2018.[27] The film was also nominated for the Best Documentary Feature at the 71st BAFTAs[28], and Fogel was also nominated for outstanding directorial achievement at the 70th Directors Guild of America Awards[29] and three 2018 Primetime Emmy Awards[30] for writing, directing and best documentary special. Icarus also received the 2018 Edward R. Murrow Award for Outstanding Journalism,[31] and won SummerDocs Audience Award at the 2017 Hamptons International Film Festival.[32]
Jeremycohen333 (talk) 19:28, 12 June 2023 (UTC)
Spintendo 05:00, 19 June 2023 (UTC)
Was this award and/or nomination given in 2017 or 2018? The BAFTA website states 2018, but the Wikipedia article for the award states 2017. Please advise so it can be correctly placed in the awards table. Spintendo 02:05, 20 June 2023 (UTC)
![]() | This edit request by an editor with a conflict of interest has now been answered. |
Hi Spintendo, thank you again for ensuring updates to this article are within BLP guidelines. After further review, I've re-evaluated the content for Icarus, and proposing consideration of the following additional background info on Fogel to add to this section. Each additional piece of content is supported with notes per citation in the intended order of appearance to add above the current article's subsection contents.
A life long cyclist, Fogel had followed Lance Armstrong’s rise and fall and was fascinated that while he ultimately confessed to doping had been able to carry on without ever testing positive or being caught, a journey led to Icarus, an upcoming documentary that began filming in May 2014.[1]
Shortly after, Fogel connected with Russian scientist, Dr. Grigory Rodchenkov, adopting Rodchenkov's doping regimen to show a weaknesses in global drug tests by becoming a human guinea pig.[2]
In May 2016, Fogel and Rodchenkov went to the The New York Times and through three days of interviews disclosed evidence alleging that Russia had orchestrated state-sponsored fraud, conspiring to cheat the Olympics for decades, including the 2014 Sochi Olympics that would be the backbone of the front page The New York Times story on May 12, 2016.[3]
In August 2017, Fogel met with members of the US Congress and Senate to discuss the extent of Russian tampering in global affairs, specifically the 2016 US elections.[4]
This story, which became the foundation of his feature documentary film Icarus, would lead to Russia’s ban from the Olympic Games in 2018,[5] 2020[6] and 2022.[7]
Thank you again for your time and consideration in reviewing this next draft.
Jeremycohen333 (talk) 23:55, 12 July 2023 (UTC)
{{cite web}}
: CS1 maint: url-status (link)Jeremycohen333 (talk) 23:55, 12 July 2023 (UTC)
I wanted to note that the Financial Times is paywalled, so I'm not able to access any of the information from those sources. I did read the New York Times article. The edit request proposal states "Fogel and Rodchenkov went to the The New York Times and through three days of interviews disclosed evidence alleging that Russia had orchestrated state-sponsored fraud..."
(vis-à-vis the doping scandal). Now it's my understanding that while Fogel facilitated Rodchenkov's visit to the Times, it was Rodchenkov who offered evidence about the doping scandal.
Re: the claim about Fogel's Congressional testimony, I would be happy to add it to the article, but it should be mentioned using neutral terms describing whichever topics he discussed (according to the source) rather than describing it as a discussion about Russian "tampering".
Another portion of the edit request requires some context, where it states Fogel "adopted Rodchenkov's doping regimen to show a weaknesses [sic] in global drug tests by becoming a human guinea pig."
That statement seems to suggest that Fogel was administered steroids, which I'm not understanding. The New York Times, where that information originates from, does not explain this very well.
I'll leave the request template open; I'd like to hear from other editors their feedback and ideas on this request, please feel free to chime in. Spintendo 05:19, 14 July 2023 (UTC)
Notes
"Dr. Rodchenkov laid out the details of the operation over three days of interviews that were arranged by an American filmmaker, Bryan Fogel, who is working on a documentary that involves Dr. Rodchenkov."The Times article mentions Fogel's name only five times, while it mentions Rodchenkov's name 51 times. From that, I think it's clear where the bulk of the information came from.
References
Below you will see where proposals from your request have been quoted with reviewer decisions and feedback inserted underneath, either accepting, declining or otherwise commenting upon your proposal(s). Please read the enclosed notes within the proposal review section below for information on each request. Spintendo 02:58, 15 August 2023 (UTC)
Edit request review 14-AUG-2023 |
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Hi Spintendo,
Please see revised information per your prior comments in the edit request review above.
I propose the first sentence be modified as follows to be accurate, since Fogel stated he was following Lance's career and not interested in making a documentary about him at that time:
The following addresses "note 2" and the citation supports this entire paragraph, adding the results of the 2nd race as mentioned in article. This paragraph I'd propose to be added after the first sentence "Fogel, as a life long cyclist..."
The next paragraph following the above has been updated per your comment in "note 3" that is reworded and supports the additional statements for context of events based at the time of filming the documentary:
Thank you for your reply to these modifications, with the intent of addressing your suggestions.Jeremycohen333 (talk) 23:55, 13 September 2023 (UTC)
Hi Spintendo,
I've revised the second paragraph proposal and citation regarding the note for an unreliable source "Fraud Magazine". This has been updated with a "Financial Times" article that covers the same topic and specifics of both races. In 2014, Fogel was clean and the following year had been doping under Rodchekov's protocol to evade detection, adding context on Rodchenkov. Therefore, I'm proposing revisions to the first paragraph in the live article to be edited as follows:
Thank you for your review on the revised additions. Jeremycohen333 (talk) 07:14, 28 September 2023 (UTC)
|quote=
parameter and include the verbatim text from the FT source which confirms the information you wish to add. Regards, Spintendo 21:37, 29 September 2023 (UTC)Hi Spintendo,
Please see proposed text followed by verbatim copy from FT article citation to support the edit requests:
Fogel, as a life long cyclist, had followed Lance Armstrong’s rise and fall, in particular, his ability to evade doping detection.
Bryan Fogel was inspired to start doping by Lance Armstrong. In January 2013, Fogel watched on television as the celebrated Texan cyclist admitted to Oprah Winfrey that he had used performance-enhancing drugs during each of his seven Tour de France victories.
— Ahmed, Murad, "Cycling, Steroids and a Russian Doping Scandal ", Financial Times, 2017-07-28
In August 2014, Fogel competed in the Haute Route, a prestigious amateur cycling multiday race in the French Alps with no drugs in his system, placing 14th out of 440 competitors.
Fogel began by testing his body against the Haute Route, a fiendishly tough multiday race considered among the most prestigious for amateurs. Competing clean in 2014, he finished 14th out of more than 400 competitors, but was shattered.
— Ahmed, Murad, "Cycling, Steroids and a Russian Doping Scandal ", Financial Times, 2017-07-28
Planning to race the following year, Fogel contacted various international experts and eventually connected with Russian scientist, Dr. Grigory Rodchenkov, who at the time was the director of Moscow’s WADA (World Anti-Doping Agency) laboratory. Under Rodchenkov’s direction, Fogel adopted a doping regimen similar to Armstrong's to prove a weakness in global drug tests. After months of doping, Fogel’s measured power was higher than the year before as he headed into his second Haute Route race in August 2015. Fogel didn’t win, his bicycle had mechanical problems and he placed 27th out of 600 cyclists.[8]
The following year, after undergoing a doping regime similar to Armstrong's, he raced again. Mechanical failures meant that he finished 27th out of more than 600 riders, but his body was transformed...Fogel did not just want to dope. He wanted, like Armstrong, to see if he could evade the drug testers. To do this, he needed a guide; an expert who could prescribe a winning formula and design a regimen to cheat anti-doping controls. That search led him to Grigory Rodchenkov. When they began talking in April 2014, Rodchenkov was the director of Russia's official anti-doping laboratory in Moscow and considered one of the world's leading experts on performance-enhancing drugs.
— Ahmed, Murad, "Cycling, Steroids and a Russian Doping Scandal ", Financial Times, 2017-07-28
Then as mentioned in this topic, to slightly revise the live edit you provided with the following:
Fogel eventually helped prepare evidence with Rodchenkov, setting-up an interview at The New York Times.[9][6] The Times story, published in 2016, presaged Russia's ban from the Olympic Games in 2018, 2020 and 2022.[10]
Thanks! Jeremycohen333 (talk) 21:55, 30 September 2023 (UTC)
Fogel, as a life long cyclist, had followed Lance Armstrong’s rise and fall, in particular, his ability to evade doping detection. Fogel eventually helped prepare evidence with Rodchenkov, setting-up an interview at The New York Times. The Times story, published in 2016, presaged Russia's ban from the Olympic Games in 2018, 2020 and 2022.The text above is acceptable to be placed into the article (although if this is the first mentioning of Rodhenkov's name in the text above, that might be problematic; If I'm not mistaken, I don't think his name is mentioned prior to this.) The only remaining problem I would have is mentioning any additional information about the Haute Route race (If you're still requesting to add that). Any text describing Fogel as "wanting to enter the race in order to see if he could evade drug detection" would be identical to the real-life narrative as depicted in Fogels documentary. My problem is that we would just be repeating the narrative of the documentary here in the article if we added any additional information about the Haute route race.[lower-alpha 1] So I'm inclined only to add the revised text shown in green font above if you agree. Please advise.
Notes
this detail of information related to Fogel is a major focal point that happened to be documented in the Icarus film. I propose that this is worth including as a personal aspect of his career.which leads me to question which career, as a bicyclist or as a film maker? The information concerning the race appears to straddle both, so to speak. The question is how much of it to include here. If much of this narrative is presented in the documentary, then I would argue it should be presented there, in the article on the film. Film articles, in practice, have much greater leeway towards presenting expanded (some might argue bloated) plot sections describing every aspect of their presentations. If it's a fact from the subject's life that was documented in the film, then that's where it should be placed, in the article on the film. Regards, Spintendo 22:32, 11 October 2023 (UTC)
I apologize for the delay in getting this started, I've been quite busy, but I haven't forgotten. I think we're ready to begin the 3O process. The discussion will take place here, on this talk page, and will be listed on the 3O page in order to garner attention from monitoring editors. Because there are a few other threads here on the talk page (just below this conversation) I'm going to open the 30 at the very bottom of the talk page. I may even temporarily collapse the other conversations so they don't get in the way. Editors who come to the page will want to look at a history of our conversations, and it's much easier if the 30 discussion is just-adjacent to those other discussions. There also needs to be a short summary of what the main issue is. This is shown below. If you disagree with anything from my summary, please feel free to write in your own words, what you feel the issue is, which we can include with the summary before I officially move it to the 30 section at the bottom of this talk page.
The subject of the article, Bryan Fogel, is a documentarian. One of Fogel's films is called Icarus. That film's central topic is the intersection of performance enhancing drugs with certain world sport authorities and participants; namely, those authorities supposed efforts at preventing that intersection (or more importantly, the lack thereof in preventing an intersection). In the same spirit as other groundbreaking documentary filmmakers from the past 30 years (Michael Moore and Morgan Spurlock just to name a few) who, as directors, did not confine themselves to only one side of the camera, Fogel is also present and interacts with other people on screen, in many portions of what the viewer sees going on in the documentary, Besides directing, Fogel is also an athlete, and scenes of him participating in cycling competitions are factually shown as they occurred during the filming of the documentary. Indeed, Fogel played an important role in the information shown in the film eventually coming to light and being reported on in larger national media.
With that in mind, the question is how much from the film (which does include events and details from Fogel's life) should be placed in the Wikipedia article about Fogel. Are these details more apropos for the Wikipedia article on the film Icarus? Or should they get placed in Fogel's article? Or, as a third avenue, is the either/or dichotomy that I've just presented a false one, in that they ought to be placed in both articles?
That being said, referencing issues are present. There are not many journalistic secondary sources covering the events in the film which also depicted Fogel — the NYTimes for example, spends far more of their coverage on another individual in the documentary. Thus, many of the events in the film which specifically feature Fogel's activities and which are desired to be mentioned in Fogel's article are theoretically only referenced by the film itself - a film that Fogel wrote, produced and directed. The nature of BLP articles may necessitate these details being placed in the film's article, which is much more permissive when it comes to sourcing. [lower-alpha 1]Notes
According to WP:BLPRS, Fogel's article can make as many claims as it wants while using Fogel's films and Fogel's interviews to act as references for all of it — but only as long as those claims don't involve the mentioning of third-parties.
Please advise on any feedback and we'll go from there. Thanks! Regards, Spintendo 09:00, 3 November 2023 (UTC)
The following year, after undergoing a doping regime similar to Armstrong's, he raced again. Mechanical failures meant that he finished 27th out of more than 600 riders, but his body was transformed...Fogel did not just want to dope. He wanted, like Armstrong, to see if he could evade the drug testers. To do this, he needed a guide; an expert who could prescribe a winning formula and design a regimen to cheat anti-doping controls. That search led him to Grigory Rodchenkov. When they began talking in April 2014, Rodchenkov was the director of Russia's official anti-doping laboratory in Moscow and considered one of the world's leading experts on performance-enhancing drugsbut as you can see, it stops short of saying that rodchenkov is the one who gave him these drugs, It just says he needed an expert and his search took him to rodchenkov. The quoted passage ends there. The beginning states
The following year, after undergoing a doping regime similar to Armstrong's, he raced again. Mechanical failures meant that he finished 27th out of more than 600 riders, but his body was transformedBut once again we're missing the text that actually says Rodchenkov is the one who either prepared the medication or gave it to him. maybe I'm just not seeing it. if you could help point out the text that would be helpful. thank you. Spintendo 16:48, 3 November 2023 (UTC)
Hi Spintendo,
I appreciate your response and actions taken thus far to help summarize. Yes I realize there are various proposal versions, revisions and suggestions exchanged. So in an attempt to help identify the latest proposal, I've combined the prior texts and verbatim sources to support the updates for Icarus and define the pending content submitted for review. I've organized in bullet points as requested in the COI format as well. I hope this makes it easier on your part in review of our prior discussions. See below proposal thank you!
• Please revise the first sentence adding a wikilink to Lance Armstrong in the current live version, and please add a second sentence to the first paragraph.
• Reason for the change: Wikilink omitted in last edit, and would like to note the period of time when Fogel started working on this documentary in his filmmaking career.
• Please add a new next paragraph preceding the current second and third sentences starting with "Fogel later connected with Russian scientist..."and ending with "...Olympic Games in 2018, 2020 and 2022." Then it would be appropriate in terms of the timeline of events to move these two sentences mentioned above as a new paragraph, which can be placed as the second to last paragraph in the Icarus section, preceding the last paragraph starting with "Icarus, a film documenting these investigations..."
• Using the reference:
Ahmed, Murad (2017-07-28). "Cycling, steroids and a Russian doping scandal". Financial Times. Retrieved 2023-07-12.
Fogel began by testing his body against the Haute Route, a fiendishly tough multiday race considered among the most prestigious for amateurs. Competing clean in 2014, he finished 14th out of more than 400 competitors, but was shattered.
— Ahmed, Murad, "Cycling, Steroids and a Russian Doping Scandal ", Financial Times, 2017-07-28
• Reason for the change: Additional background; As mentioned in the documentary, Fogel had entered this race without doping, and providing the results of the race.
• Please add to the paragraph:
• Using the same reference as prior sentence reference:
Ahmed, Murad (2017-07-28). "Cycling, steroids and a Russian doping scandal". Financial Times. Retrieved 2023-07-12.
The following year, after undergoing a doping regime similar to Armstrong's, he raced again. Mechanical failures meant that he finished 27th out of more than 600 riders, but his body was transformed...Fogel did not just want to dope. He wanted, like Armstrong, to see if he could evade the drug testers. To do this, he needed a guide; an expert who could prescribe a winning formula and design a regimen to cheat anti-doping controls. That search led him to Grigory Rodchenkov. When they began talking in April 2014, Rodchenkov was the director of Russia's official anti-doping laboratory in Moscow and considered one of the world's leading experts on performance-enhancing drugs.
— Ahmed, Murad, "Cycling, Steroids and a Russian Doping Scandal ", Financial Times, 2017-07-28
• Reason for the change: Add more detail re: the expert Fogel hired while documenting his doping journey in preparation for his next race and goal of working with this expert. Mention of effect on Fogel's strength and his results of the 2nd race as discussed in documentary. Fogel's cycling journey and events Fogel captured as a filmmaker.
• Please add a third paragraph:
This is when Bryan's documentary took an unexpected turn and he had to fly Rodchenkov to Los Angeles for safety.
• Using the reference:
Yuan, Jada (2017-12-05). "How Icarus Director Bryan Fogel Documented the Russian Olympic Doping Scandal". Vulture. Retrieved 2023-12-18.
When director Bryan Fogel set out to make his jaw-dropping, absolutely insane doping documentary, Icarus, he didn’t know that he’d walk away with exclusive footage of what may go down as the biggest scandal in the history of sport...Fogel’s realization that Rodchenkov isn’t just a guy in a Russian sports lab...He also didn’t know that his footage from that day would become evidence of a criminal operation and an institutional conspiracy. Or that he’d be the one to buy Rodchenkov the plane ticket that got him to safe harbor in Los Angeles...
— Yuan, Jada, "How Icarus Director Bryan Fogel Documented the Russian Olympic Doping Scandal ", Vulture, 2017-12-05
• Reason for the change: The context of Fogel documenting his journey for Icarus and events that revealed the significance of Rodchenkov the expert Fogel had hired, and Fogel's realization of the implications which were covered in documentary as well as the actions taken to help protect Rodchenkov.
• Please revise the sentence in the first paragraph of the published article section that I've suggested to move to a new paragraph, which separates it from the first paragraph presently.
Change "Fogel later connected with Russian scientist..." to the following.
Any clarifications on the above I can provide prior to submitting please do let me know, as my goal here was to highlight the proposal summary in a clear, organized and thoughtful manner to assist your efforts. Best Regards,
Jeremycohen333 (talk) 00:32, 19 December 2023 (UTC)
In looking over the requested changes, I surmised that the following is what you'd like to be changed. Please review the following and let me know if that is correct.
− | Fogel, | + | Fogel, a life long cyclist, had followed Lance Armstrong’s rise and fall in particular, his ability to evade doping detection. This journey led to Icarus, a documentary that began filming in May 2014.
In August 2014, Fogel competed in the Haute Route, a prestigious amateur cycling multiday race in the French Alps with no drugs in his system, placing 14th out of 440 competitors. Planning to race the following year, Fogel contacted various international experts and eventually connected with Russian scientist, Dr. Grigory Rodchenkov, who at the time was the director of Moscow’s WADA (World Anti-Doping Agency) laboratory. Under Rodchenkov’s direction, Fogel adopted a doping regimen similar to Armstrong's to prove a weakness in global drug tests. After months of doping, Fogel’s measured power was higher than the year before as he headed into his second Haute Route race in August 2015. Fogel didn’t win, his bicycle had mechanical problems and he placed 27th out of 600 cyclists. While filming his documentary Icarus in Moscow, Fogel quickly realized that Rodchenkov was not just a guy in a Russian laboratory but the architect of Russia's state-run doping program. This led Fogel to realize that his footage was evidence of a criminal operation and an institutional conspiracy that would endanger Rodchenkov. |
Regards, Spintendo 01:36, 27 December 2023 (UTC)
![]() | This edit request by an editor with a conflict of interest has now been answered. |
Hello Wikipedians, I’m proposing edits for the Career section “The Dissident” on behalf of the subject Bryan Fogel to expand on this documentary as part of his career biography.
Thank you in advance in reviewing the additional information on this topic of the subject’s biography.
Thank you for your consideration. Moliere93 (talk) 21:46, 23 September 2023 (UTC) Moliere93 (talk) 21:46, 23 September 2023 (UTC)
References
":Hi Spintendo, thank you for your reply. Yes, this is related to your previous discussions with User:Jeremycohen333 regarding "1-6 citations" and "7-10 citations".As I replied to Moliere, that discussion between Jeremycohen and I was completed (at the time). If there is a new request, please post it at the bottom of the talk page. Regards, Spintendo 21:30, 29 September 2023 (UTC)
Hi Spintendo,
I've revised the edit request summaries per my previous proposal.
Thank you again for your review. Moliere93 (talk) 00:36, 11 October 2023 (UTC)
References
In sections where your asking text to be revised, I need to see a verbatim description of the text to be removed. You've not included that with your request.[1] The reasons for the changes being made also need to be clearer.[2] Thus far, you've stated what is to be changed but you have not stated why it needs to be changed
Sample edit request |
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References
Instructions for Submitters: Describe the requested changes in detail. This includes the exact proposed wording of the new material, the exact proposed location for it, and an explicit description of any wording to be removed, including removal for any substitution.
Instructions for Submitters: If the rationale for a change is not obvious (particularly for proposed deletions), explain.
Regards, Spintendo 22:15, 11 October 2023 (UTC)
Hi Spintendo, thank you for your guidance for the proper COI template for the proposed edits. The prior requests have been formatted accordingly to address each revision or addition to The Dissident section on Fogel's article.
• Please revise the first sentence of The Dissident section adding Fogel's production company and co-wrote credit, as well as adding "feature" preceding "film":
After Icarus, in 2020, Fogel under the banner Orwell Productions, co-wrote, directed and produced the 2020 American documentary feature film The Dissident, which follows the assassination of Jamal Khashoggi and Saudi Arabia's efforts to control international dissent.
• Using the same reference:
report, Staff (2020-10-23). "Bryan Fogel's 'The Dissident' wins Aspen FIlmfest Audience Award". www.aspentimes.com. Retrieved 2023-09-12.
• Reason for change being made: Fogel’s production company “Orwell Productions” should be noted here in connection with his feature film credit.
---
• Please add as the second sentence of The Dissident section:
Fogel would enlist the support of the Human Rights Foundation and Thor Halvorssen.
• Using as the reference:
Vivarelli, Nick (2021-02-05). "'Dissident' Producer Thor Halvorssen on Alleged Saudi Troll Campaign Against Film on Rotten Tomatoes, IMDb". Variety. Retrieved 2023-09-12.
• Reason for change being made: Add the notable non-profit organization and founder that Fogel connected with to work together on his documentary film.
---
• Please add as the third sentence of The Dissident section:
Fogel envisioned telling a story that went far beyond the newspaper headlines of Jamal Khashoggi’s murder.
• Using as the reference:
"Jamal Khashoggi: All you need to know about Saudi journalist's death". BBC News. 2018-10-10. Retrieved 2023-09-12.
• Reason for change being made: Reporting of this incident had conflicting details and that inspired Fogel to research this subject and ultimately create a documentary based on these events.
---
• Please revise the second sentence in the current wiki article, which will be the fourth sentence of The Dissident section:
The film had its world premiere at the Sundance Film Festival in January 24, 2020 attended by Hillary Clinton, Alec Baldwin and Reed Hastings.
• Using as the references:
After “January 24, 2020”: "Bryan Fogel Returns to the Festival with 'The Dissident' - sundance.org". 2020-01-29. Retrieved 2023-09-12. After “Hillary Clinton”: Galuppo, Mia (2020-01-27). "Sundance: Hillary Clinton Talks Jamal Khashoggi Doc 'The Dissident'". The Hollywood Reporter. Retrieved 2023-09-12.
After “Reed Hastings”: "Khashoggi doc, too explosive for streaming, debuts on-demand". AP News. 2021-01-05. Retrieved 2023-09-12.
• Reason for change being made: Add notable political and entertainment industry figures that attended the premiere of his film.
---
• Please add a second paragraph of The Dissident section:
Despite excellent reviews, major film studios were reluctant to pick up the film, for fear of reprisals. While The Dissident was met with acclaim when it premiered at the Sundance Film Festival, Fogel had trouble finding a distributor for the film, believing that this was due to the distributors’ ties to the Kingdom of Saudi Arabia.
• Using as the 3 references after “…fear of reprisals”:
"Acclaimed Documentary Filmmakers Face Distribution Issues For Hot-Button Subjects". InsideHook. Retrieved 2023-09-12.
Report, Times-Mirror Staff (2020-10-21). "'Minari,' 'The Dissident' win Middleburg Film Festival Audience Awards". LoudounTimes.com. Retrieved 2023-09-12.
Thompson, Anne (2020-10-23). "How Award-Winning Filmmakers Make Dangerous Documentaries That No Major Distributor Will Touch". IndieWire. Retrieved 2023-09-12.
• Using as the references at the end of second sentence “…Kingdom of Saudi Arabia”:
Countryman, Eli (2021-01-14). "Bryan Fogel Discusses 'The Dissident' and the Entertainment Industry's Reluctance to Distribute It". Variety. Retrieved 2023-09-12.
• Reason for change being made: Fogel’s documentary was highly anticipated and initial reviews were positive, however distribution was difficult to obtain due to the subject matter of Fogel's film.
---
• Please add a third paragraph in The Dissident section:
Fogel’s film was applauded by critics, ‘Fogel's investigation is vigorous, deep and comprehensive’ and ‘an eye-opening thriller brew of corruption, cover-up, and real-world courage.
• Using as the reference after first review “…deep and comprehensive”:
McCarthy, Todd (2020-01-24). "'The Dissident': Film Review | Sundance 2020". The Hollywood Reporter. Retrieved 2023-09-12.
• Using as the reference after second review “…real-world courage.”
Gleiberman, Owen (2020-01-25). "'The Dissident': Film Review". Variety. Retrieved 2023-09-12.
• Using as the reference after third review “…geopolitics are at play.”
Girish, Devika (2020-12-24). "'The Dissident' Review: A Murder for Power". The New York Times. ISSN 0362-4331. Retrieved 2023-09-12.
• Using as the reference after forth review “…astounding achievement.”
Chatterjee, Ambar (2021-02-13). "The Dissident captures the silencing of a distinguished journalist in an unforgettable way". EastMojo. Retrieved 2023-09-12.
• Reason for change being made: Include a select few of critics reviews from notable publications directly mentioning Fogel’s work as a filmmaker on the documentary.
---
• Please revise the last sentence as a new paragraph in the current wiki article of The Dissident section combining Sundance Film Festival screening date next to world-wide premiere date. Also please add Mark Monroe (co-writer) after "73rd Writers Guild of America Awards". And finally add a wiki link to "Best Documentary Feature" for BAFTA nomination recipients list that includes The Dissident for the award year.
The film was released on December 18, 2020, by Briarcliff Entertainment. Fogel's screenplay for The Dissident won the Writers Guild of America Award for Best Documentary Screenplay award at the 73rd Writers Guild of America Awards alongside Mark Monroe in 2020 and Fogel’s 2nd BAFTA Nomination for Best Documentary Feature.
• Using as the reference after “73rd Writers Guild of America Awards”:
I.Faleye (2021-03-22). "2021 Writers Guild Awards Winners - 'The Dissident' Wins for Documentary Screenplay". VIMooZ. Retrieved 2023-09-12.
• Using as references after “Mark Monroe”:
2021 Writers Guild Awards: “The Dissident” wins Documentary Screenplay, retrieved 2023-09-12
"Mark Monroe | Producer, Writer, Director". IMDb. Retrieved 2023-09-12.
• Using as the reference at end of sentence/paragraph “Best Documentary Feature”:
"Khashoggi documentary and Palestinian film nominated for BAFTAs". Middle East Eye. Retrieved 2023-09-12.
• Reason for change being made: Add references to specific Awards mentioned and slightly revise sentence to indicate this was Fogel’s 2nd BAFTA nomination.
Thank you for your consideration. Moliere93 (talk) 04:01, 8 November 2023 (UTC)
Hi Spintendo,
I would like to revisit these edit requests (see above) per my previous proposal that have not been addressed and would either like to continue this process with you or will start a new proposal for another editor’s review.
Thanks.. Moliere93 (talk) 20:25, 5 February 2024 (UTC)
![]() | This edit request by an editor with a conflict of interest has now been answered. |
Hello Wikipedians, I'm re-submitting the proposed revisions and additions since I was unable to get a response from the prior editor after several attempts and a 6 month wait for a reply. See below the suggestions per COA template.
• Please revise the first sentence of The Dissident section adding Fogel's production company and co-wrote credit, as well as adding "feature" preceding "film":
After Icarus, in 2020, Fogel under the banner Orwell Productions, co-wrote, directed and produced the 2020 American documentary feature film The Dissident, which follows the assassination of Jamal Khashoggi and Saudi Arabia's efforts to control international dissent.
• Using the same reference:
report, Staff (2020-10-23). "Bryan Fogel's 'The Dissident' wins Aspen FIlmfest Audience Award". www.aspentimes.com. Retrieved 2023-09-12.
• Reason for change being made: Fogel’s production company “Orwell Productions” should be noted here in connection with his feature film credit.
---
• Please add as the second sentence of The Dissident section:
Fogel would enlist the support of the Human Rights Foundation and Thor Halvorssen.
• Using as the reference:
Vivarelli, Nick (2021-02-05). "'Dissident' Producer Thor Halvorssen on Alleged Saudi Troll Campaign Against Film on Rotten Tomatoes, IMDb". Variety. Retrieved 2023-09-12.
• Reason for change being made: Add the notable non-profit organization and founder that Fogel connected with to work together on his documentary film.
---
• Please add as the third sentence of The Dissident section:
Fogel envisioned telling a story that went far beyond the newspaper headlines of Jamal Khashoggi’s murder.
• Using as the reference:
"Jamal Khashoggi: All you need to know about Saudi journalist's death". BBC News. 2018-10-10. Retrieved 2023-09-12.
• Reason for change being made: Reporting of this incident had conflicting details and that inspired Fogel to research this subject and ultimately create a documentary based on these events.
---
• Please revise the second sentence in the current wiki article, which will be the fourth sentence of The Dissident section:
The film had its world premiere at the Sundance Film Festival in January 24, 2020 attended by Hillary Clinton, Alec Baldwin and Reed Hastings.
• Using as the references:
After “January 24, 2020”: "Bryan Fogel Returns to the Festival with 'The Dissident' - sundance.org". 2020-01-29. Retrieved 2023-09-12. After “Hillary Clinton”: Galuppo, Mia (2020-01-27). "Sundance: Hillary Clinton Talks Jamal Khashoggi Doc 'The Dissident'". The Hollywood Reporter. Retrieved 2023-09-12.
After “Reed Hastings”: "Khashoggi doc, too explosive for streaming, debuts on-demand". AP News. 2021-01-05. Retrieved 2023-09-12.
• Reason for change being made: Add notable political and entertainment industry figures that attended the premiere of his film.
---
• Please add a second paragraph of The Dissident section:
Despite excellent reviews, major film studios were reluctant to pick up the film, for fear of reprisals. While The Dissident was met with acclaim when it premiered at the Sundance Film Festival, Fogel had trouble finding a distributor for the film, believing that this was due to the distributors’ ties to the Kingdom of Saudi Arabia.
• Using as the 3 references after “…fear of reprisals”:
"Acclaimed Documentary Filmmakers Face Distribution Issues For Hot-Button Subjects". InsideHook. Retrieved 2023-09-12.
Report, Times-Mirror Staff (2020-10-21). "'Minari,' 'The Dissident' win Middleburg Film Festival Audience Awards". LoudounTimes.com. Retrieved 2023-09-12.
Thompson, Anne (2020-10-23). "How Award-Winning Filmmakers Make Dangerous Documentaries That No Major Distributor Will Touch". IndieWire. Retrieved 2023-09-12.
• Using as the references at the end of second sentence “…Kingdom of Saudi Arabia”:
Countryman, Eli (2021-01-14). "Bryan Fogel Discusses 'The Dissident' and the Entertainment Industry's Reluctance to Distribute It". Variety. Retrieved 2023-09-12.
• Reason for change being made: Fogel’s documentary was highly anticipated and initial reviews were positive, however distribution was difficult to obtain due to the subject matter of Fogel's film.
---
• Please add a third paragraph in The Dissident section:
Fogel’s film was applauded by critics, ‘Fogel's investigation is vigorous, deep and comprehensive’ and ‘an eye-opening thriller brew of corruption, cover-up, and real-world courage.
• Using as the reference after first review “…deep and comprehensive”:
McCarthy, Todd (2020-01-24). "'The Dissident': Film Review | Sundance 2020". The Hollywood Reporter. Retrieved 2023-09-12.
• Using as the reference after second review “…real-world courage.”
Gleiberman, Owen (2020-01-25). "'The Dissident': Film Review". Variety. Retrieved 2023-09-12.
• Using as the reference after third review “…geopolitics are at play.”
Girish, Devika (2020-12-24). "'The Dissident' Review: A Murder for Power". The New York Times. ISSN 0362-4331. Retrieved 2023-09-12.
• Using as the reference after forth review “…astounding achievement.”
Chatterjee, Ambar (2021-02-13). "The Dissident captures the silencing of a distinguished journalist in an unforgettable way". EastMojo. Retrieved 2023-09-12.
• Reason for change being made: Include a select few of critics reviews from notable publications directly mentioning Fogel’s work as a filmmaker on the documentary.
---
• Please revise the last sentence as a new paragraph in the current wiki article of The Dissident section combining Sundance Film Festival screening date next to world-wide premiere date. Also please add Mark Monroe (co-writer) after "73rd Writers Guild of America Awards". And finally add a wiki link to "Best Documentary Feature" for BAFTA nomination recipients list that includes The Dissident for the award year.
The film was released on December 18, 2020, by Briarcliff Entertainment. Fogel's screenplay for The Dissident won the Writers Guild of America Award for Best Documentary Screenplay award at the 73rd Writers Guild of America Awards alongside Mark Monroe in 2020 and Fogel’s 2nd BAFTA Nomination for Best Documentary Feature.
• Using as the reference after “73rd Writers Guild of America Awards”:
I.Faleye (2021-03-22). "2021 Writers Guild Awards Winners - 'The Dissident' Wins for Documentary Screenplay". VIMooZ. Retrieved 2023-09-12.
• Using as references after “Mark Monroe”:
2021 Writers Guild Awards: “The Dissident” wins Documentary Screenplay, retrieved 2023-09-12
"Mark Monroe | Producer, Writer, Director". IMDb. Retrieved 2023-09-12.
• Using as the reference at end of sentence/paragraph “Best Documentary Feature”:
"Khashoggi documentary and Palestinian film nominated for BAFTAs". Middle East Eye. Retrieved 2023-09-12.
• Reason for change being made: Add references to specific Awards mentioned and slightly revise sentence to indicate this was Fogel’s 2nd BAFTA nomination.
Many thanks in advance for your review and assistance to help publish this article updates. Moliere93 (talk) 01:12, 25 April 2024 (UTC)
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