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If you have a close connection to some of the people, places or things you have written about in the article State Defense Forces, you may have a conflict of interest. In keeping with Wikipedia's neutral point of view policy, edits where there is a conflict of interest, or where such a conflict might reasonably be inferred from the tone of the edit and the proximity of the editor to the subject, are strongly discouraged. If you have a conflict of interest, you should avoid or exercise great caution when:
- editing or creating articles related to you, your organization, or its competitors, as well as projects and products they are involved with;
- participating in deletion discussions about articles related to your organization or its competitors;
- linking to the Wikipedia article or website of your organization in other articles (see Wikipedia:Spam); and,
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For information on how to contribute to Wikipedia when you have conflict of interest, please see our frequently asked questions for businesses. For more details about what, exactly, constitutes a conflict of interest, please see our conflict of interest guidelines. Can you find a source for the statement about NJ not having a SDF anymore? Also, please don't remove the "fact" tags in any article unless you can replace them with a cite to a reliable source. Thanks. Newguy34 (talk) 15:15, 2 February 2009 (UTC)
An editor has nominated one or more articles which you have created or worked on, for deletion. The nominated article is State Guard Association of the United States. We appreciate your contributions, but the nominator doesn't believe that the article satisfies Wikipedia's criteria for inclusion and has explained why in his/her nomination (see also Wikipedia:Notability and "What Wikipedia is not").
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I don't know what the flying fuck you think you are doing, but knock it off or we will battle. Your edits are pure vandalism meant to disrupt the article, and you know it. QueenofBattle (talk) 01:44, 12 November 2009 (UTC)
- Now, go add back the Colorado, DC, etc. "rumps" but quite jacking up the rest of the article just to be disruptive. QueenofBattle (talk) 03:33, 12 November 2009 (UTC)
- That's right, I have rollback rights so I can revert disruptive vandalism, such as yours, with one click of the mouse. If you want to contribute constructively, I won't revert. But, removing sources and commas is a deliberate attempt to be disruptive, qualifies as vandalism. I can go all night... QueenofBattle (talk) 03:58, 12 November 2009 (UTC)
What is your issue? Did you not get a medal or something. How can you list .gov websites for active state defense forces in the table? government entities are not chapters. You said you were a SGAUS member since 2003 - how do you think your edits are helping to advance the concepts of State Defense Forces. There are new officers every year. The SGAUS organization has no control over individuals or groups outside the organization. I'm sorry I ever took the time to start this article to complement the SDF article.22015va (talk) 04:49, 12 November 2009 (UTC)
Todd Gallagher: This is not censorship. You continue to use the words "private militia" and link to obsolete web pages that are not part of the organizations website. Additionally, your actions are malicious and pure vandalism. You undo all edits (even typo corrections) vice focusing the discussion of the content of the article. For example, the SGAUS state associations & state chapter relationships are clearly explained in ref but you keep deleting the reference. Current site or archived, the ref is the same but you keep deleting it. You seem to have a clear bias against this organizations as an admitted member. Delete, undo, and cry censorship all you want - SGAUS does not support "private/rump militias" and you know it. SGAUS recognizes state associations - why do you keep deleting their mention and my current references? You would maintain/gain credibilty if your were to review my edits (one at a time) and read each cite before deleting everthing with the "undo" command. That is counter productive.22015va (talk) 01:12, 18 November 2009 (UTC)
In case you were not aware, you have been mentioned at Wikipedia:Editor_assistance/Requests#SGAUS. JamesBWatson (talk) 10:59, 18 November 2009 (UTC)
It seems to me that both sides in this quarrel have strongly held views on what the article should be like, and have have shown a tendency to stick to their own sides uncompromisingly, reverting one another's edits. I actually have some sympathy with both sides, but I don't know enough about SGAUS to judge the merits of either view. It seems to me that the best way forward is for both of you to try to discuss your differences with a view to producing a version of the article which reflects both points of. Whether this is possible depends on you and 22015va. 22015va has made a request for help on my user page, and I have made a response there, suggesting such an attempt at discussion. I would suggest that, even if you are certain you are right, in the long run you have a better chance of making progress if you aim for a version which, as I say, reflects both points of view. Naturally this is just my suggestion, which you may take or leave, but it is made in the hope that it may be helpful. JamesBWatson (talk) 20:32, 18 November 2009 (UTC)
Please see WP:AN3#User:Todd Gallagher reported by User:22015va (Result: ). You are welcome to add your own comment there. I regret not to see any posts by you on the article's talk page. If you are still unhappy with the article, you could ask for comments at WT:MILHIST, you could post at WP:Conflict of interest/Noticeboard, or you could follow the steps of WP:Dispute resolution. The presence of some COI editing worries me, but until recently the tone of the debate was very sharp and seemed a bit over the top, on both sides.
If the organization did misbehave in the past, would that not have come to the attention of some reliable sources? To hang a lengthy commentary on something that only exists in web archives seems a bit fragile. EdJohnston (talk) 17:23, 19 November 2009 (UTC)
- http://www.wsoctv.com/news/17876609/detail.html : Here is a link to a news agency questioning the "North Carolina State Guard" and how it is a rump that is trying to sound official. This is a group sponsored by the SGAUS. However, they keep trying to edit this valid criticism out. So there are "reliable sources" out there. As for teh archives, so are archives from the organization's own site preserved on archives.org. How would they not be reliable? The group lying about itself?Todd Gallagher (talk) 23:42, 20 November 2009 (UTC)
- See the result of the 3RR case at WP:AN3#User:Todd Gallagher reported by User:22015va (Result: Both warned), Both parties are warned that they must follow Wikipedia policy. 22015va is asked to read the WP:Conflict of interest guideline. If the war starts up again, both parties risk sanctions with no further warning. Use the Talk page, and follow WP:Dispute resolution if no agreement can be found. Thanks, EdJohnston (talk) 21:43, 20 November 2009 (UTC)
- I see no reason why the story at www.wsoctv.com could not be included. The web archives, not so much. We already scold people when they rely too much on an organization's own web site for significant facts. How much worse is it to rely on an *obsolete version* of the organization's site. If nobody outside the group has ever commented on this stuff, why should we? It seems like you want these guys to be considered supporters of sinister militia-type organizations, while the worst you could say is that some of them are wannabe National Guardsmen. EdJohnston (talk) 19:46, 21 November 2009 (UTC)
- Certainly not. I am an officer in the SDF. Congress created SDF's to replace the National Guard when they are activated, so there is nothing wrong there. The problem, however, lies with the SGAUS. It is a private organization that has nothing to do with the SDF itself. Similar to the VFW or ROA or American Legion in contrast to the Armed Forces. A distinction, however, is that the SGAUS recognizes non-SDF's. They recognize actual private militias that charter themselves as "SGAUS associations" and have nothing at all to do with the military units created by Congress and the respective states under 32 USC 109 and state law. The SGAUS has has as recently as 2009 a self-appointed "colonel" on its Board of Directors, as well as recognized private militias in North Carolina (as this news article was about), Colorado, D.C., and Florida. None of these jurisdictions has an SDF. It is important to note this in the article and that is what the SGAUS is trying to censor. 2015va is the webmaster for sgaus.org and deleted the evidence after I posted it. That is why I then posted links to archives.org. He then asked them to remove it, and per policy, they did, since he is the webmaster. 2015va has a conflict of interest, as posted. Whenever somting is posted he does not like, he deletes it or changes the website.Todd Gallagher (talk) 06:30, 22 November 2009 (UTC)
- I see no reason why the story at www.wsoctv.com could not be included. The web archives, not so much. We already scold people when they rely too much on an organization's own web site for significant facts. How much worse is it to rely on an *obsolete version* of the organization's site. If nobody outside the group has ever commented on this stuff, why should we? It seems like you want these guys to be considered supporters of sinister militia-type organizations, while the worst you could say is that some of them are wannabe National Guardsmen. EdJohnston (talk) 19:46, 21 November 2009 (UTC)
How to improve the articles
I notice this information about SGAUS on their own site is still in the Google cache as of today. (This info is cited by them to "State Legislatures, May 1996, with permission from the National Conference of State Legislatures, Denver, Colorado"). To get the COI tag removed from the SGAUS article, I recommend that we get some outside viewpoints on the organization or at least hear about things they are involved in that are possibly controversial. I don't have much time to look into this further, but I invite you to make suggestions as to what should happen, for example:
- New sources might be found that would give balance to the SGAUS article
- The SGAUS article could be nominated for deletion, if there are truly no WP:RS which comment on the organization itself. (You found a TV report about the North Carolina State Guard, which is a non-SDF, but the report is not about SGAUS as such).
- Our article about State Defense Forces might be enhanced to include mention of some of the controversies.
- The helpful table of state associations in SGAUS might be merged into the State Defense Forces article and then the SGAUS association might get a brief mention in that article.
Please let me know if you have any reaction to these ideas. EdJohnston (talk) 17:51, 22 November 2009 (UTC)
- "#The SGAUS article could be nominated for deletion, if there are truly no WP:RS which comment on the organization itself. (You found a TV report about the North Carolina State Guard, which is a non-SDF, but the report is not about SGAUS as such)." The North Carolina State Guard Association is just that--an association of the SGAUS. It is not an SDF, but it is an SGAUS association. I do not see why it should be included in the SDF article any more than the National Guard article, as the report itself compared them to the National Guard. What the SGAUS seems to be hiding is that it is full of "hillbilly Bob private militias" alongside genuine SDF's. It states that it does not recognize private militias UNLESS they are trying to become official. That is from their own paperwork. Well guess what? I have been in the SDF since 2003 and they have had four "hillbilly Bob private militias" and not a single one has been recognized. No state is ever going to recognize a private militia. If an SDF is formed in a state without one (like Michigan has since the 1990's), they start from scratch. The SGAUS webmaster seems to like editing this out. As for your ideas, I would go for deletion if they continue editing out all resources. There are no independent resources about the group itself, only its associations. The site is controlled by them and they have blocked archives.org from releasing anything they have posted in the past.Todd Gallagher (talk) 22:35, 22 November 2009 (UTC)
Mr. Gallagher I would like to make the effort to reach a consensus with you on the SGAUS article. I have added a column to the states table to list the independent state associations with a link to that state government's list of state corporations. For example, above you list the North Carolina State Guard Association as a SGAUS association - it is not. The North Carolina State Guard Association is incorporated in the state of North Carolina and the SGAUS organization is incorporated in the State of Maryland. A previous link on an archive page of the SGUAS website to an obsolete website of the North Carolina State Guard Association does not constitute financial support or corporate merger. I will make ever effort to ensure that any changes I make to the article are small and incremental w/third-party sources. I look forward to developing a consensus with you (and all wiki members) on a fair and balanced article on the SGAUS organization. Respectfully,22015va (talk) 00:35, 23 November 2009 (UTC)
Sir, do you have any current sources that show Massachusetts, Mississippi, or Louisiana still have active state defense forces. I believe the 2005 DoD report is out date. I cannot find any current references for these forces on any government run website. As for the New Jersey Naval unit, there are listed on the NJ government website. I believe the count of 22 is no longer accurate.22015va (talk) 19:51, 29 November 2009 (UTC)
- sorry, but Wikipedia is not an independent research site. We go by secondary and tertiary sources only. I see DOD sites as recent as 2008 referencing one of those SDF's, and the Army Times itself cites the number as recently as 2009. This is why your personal involvement is already is question. You are a primary source when it comes to the SGAUS since you control the site. Todd Gallagher (talk) 21:05, 29 November 2009 (UTC)
- Sir, I am not looking to undermine SDFs or the article (I reverted my count edit). I was seeking to show an accurate count of what states have active SDFs today. On 01/21/09 you posted on the SDF article's discussion page that a state did not have an SDF, and the lack of any mention of it on the state's Adjutant General's website proved there was no SDF (a fair argument). But Wouldn't same argument apply to other states as well? I do not question the authenticity of the 2005 DoD report, I question the relevancy of the report now that it is four years old. Are there current third-party sources that reflect Massachusetts, Mississippi, and Louisiana still have active SDFs? If so, please share. The most I could find on the three states were mentions in archived discussions on military interests websites. Again, I'm not looking to undermine SDFs or the article.22015va (talk) 03:27, 30 November 2009 (UTC)
- sorry, but Wikipedia is not an independent research site. We go by secondary and tertiary sources only. I see DOD sites as recent as 2008 referencing one of those SDF's, and the Army Times itself cites the number as recently as 2009. This is why your personal involvement is already is question. You are a primary source when it comes to the SGAUS since you control the site. Todd Gallagher (talk) 21:05, 29 November 2009 (UTC)
Sir, thank you. Correction made.22015va (talk) 03:59, 6 December 2009 (UTC)
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Todd Gallagher, the MOS is pretty big, so I know you'll forgive me if I don't re-read the whole thing. The provision I am aware of is WP:DECADE which does not appear to have any leeway. Please tell me if I have misread this. Also, I have found the MOS to frequently have conflicting provisions, so if you are following such a provision, please point it out to me. Ocalafla (talk) 10:12, 5 October 2012 (UTC)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MOS:SECTIONS#Apostrophes "For groups of years, the apostrophe at the end is unnecessary, since there is no possibility of misreading. For this reason, some style guides prefer 1960s to 1960's[49] (although the latter is noted by at least one source as acceptable in American usage),[50] and 90s or '90s to 90's or '90's."
- I don't see that text in the actual MOS (what you linked to). In fact further down that page, the MOS states "Decades are written in the format the 1980s, with no apostrophe". I only found the language you quoted in the wikipedia article Apostrophe which is distinct from the MOS. Sorry if I'm still missing something, but can you show me where the MOS supports your usage? Thanks! Ocalafla (talk) 21:17, 5 October 2012 (UTC)
It specifically states in the MoS: "For a thorough treatment of all uses of the apostrophe (possessive, elision, formation of certain plurals, specific foreign-language issues) see the article Apostrophe," to which it then links and states the previous posted rule. I agree the other section of the MoS states that apostrophes should not be used for plurality; so it contradicts itself. Perhaps it should state in the MoS that it is linking to the article for non-Wikipedia uses of the apostrophe, but it does not. I am not going to argue over a minute grammatical rule, so go ahead and remove the apostrophes designating plurality. The rule in the MoS for the formation of certain plurals should be removed. Todd Gallagher (talk) 16:49, 6 October 2012 (UTC)
- A valiant argument that I would make in court if it were all I had! But, one I'd expect a judge to reject pretty quickly. :) Ocalafla (talk) 18:38, 6 October 2012 (UTC)
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1) User talk:Pama73 comment and edits convinced me that non-possessive was correct. I am not sure now. 2) The article material was apparently moved back to the possessively named article. Seems to be missing the edit history. 3) I don't think that the Talk:Reserve Officer Training Corps got moved either. 4) There was a way to reverse this, which I won't go into at this point. If you can convince Pama73 that you are correct, we may need administrator intervention here to re-merge histories. Probably would help with moving discussion page as well, though we could manage that part ourselves. Let me know. Thanks. And sorry for my error, if that is what it turns out to be. Student7 (talk) 22:21, 8 July 2013 (UTC)
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