User talk:Kivo

Askern miners are semi professional — Preceding unsigned comment added by VictorylandNationalAccount (talk • contribs) 17:05, 2 May 2023 (UTC)

File:Rossington Main F.C. logo.png

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Slazengers

I'm not sure it's useful creating an article if you have no information on the club beyond a single season in the Yorkshire League. Based on a post on NonLeagueZone, it seems they may be the same team as the current Horbury Town.

Also, as I've asked numerous times before, could you please format references properly using {{fchd}} and not leaving bare urls. Number 57 22:33, 30 January 2019 (UTC)

File:DodworthMWFC.png

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Humber Premier League

Any reason why you deleted all my edit on the Humber premier league page? MWRef92 (talk) 05:24, 23 April 2019 (UTC)

Cut and paste moves

Come on, you should know by now that you can't move a page by copying the text from one place and pasting it to another. To move an article you have to either use the move tab at the top of the article, or if this doesn't work, use the WP:RM process.

This is to ensure that an article history is retained. Number 57 14:49, 4 May 2019 (UTC)

Also, could you avoid uploading a new version of club logos at a different title (as you've done for the Emley one) – its neater to keep the image history in one place, and creating a new one means the old one becomes an orphaned non-free file.

As a separate request, the league allocations will be announced tomorrow – if you're going to write some articles on some of the new clubs at step 6, please ensure they are proper articles with a decent amount of prose rather than efforts like this. Creating new articles with two or three sentences of text is potentially going to cause more harm than good, as very short and poorly referenced articles are far more likely to be put up for deletion, which does no favours for maintaining the current consensus around step 6 clubs being article-worthy. Cheers, Number 57 00:12, 19 May 2019 (UTC)

I don't know if you missed this message, but your Golcar United creation was exactly what I was asking you to stop doing. If you create articles like this, they're at high risk of being deleted, which will potentially have knock-on effects for other articles on clubs at this level if it means the consensus on step 6 clubs is broken. Please do not create any more club articles unless you're going to do it properly. Thanks, Number 57 21:16, 19 May 2019 (UTC)

Founding date Stoke City F.C.

Hi Kivo,

I came across the rolling dispute about which team is the oldest football club. I am not a football fan, nor a supporter of any club. I went back to the sources, and found a large number of reliable sources that give 1863 as the founding date of Stoke Rambles - I've added three cites to the article. More can me provided. I also read the Birmingham Post article of 11th. December 1868. It does indeed say: "The Ramblers is a new club, only started this season". However I believe this is a reference to their first season in the league, not their first season as a football club. The majority of sources seem to agree that the Ramblers club was founded in 1863, and I think the article should reflect this. Railfan23 (talk) 18:06, 5 May 2019 (UTC)

I am sorry but this is incorrect. "The Ramblers is a new club, only started this season" is a reference to the fact that the club was founded that season, not that they had entered a league (no leagues were created until 1888!). There is absolutely zero evidence of Stoke City being formed earlier than 1868. Kivo (talk) 18:08, 5 May 2019 (UTC)

I disagree, please see the three sources I provided in the article. It is untrue that there is "absolutely zero evidence of Stoke City being formed earlier than 1868". What we have is a disagreement between the sources. The Birmingham Daily Post report is ambiguous, but useful. The other sources are to be weighed as well. There is a great deal of weight to the 1863 date. This is worth discussing further, but it is inappropriate to dismiss all evidence that doesn't fit your preferred date. Railfan23 (talk) 18:11, 5 May 2019 (UTC)

The sources you have added simply state 1863 as the foundation date, while giving no evidence to back up the claim. These facts need to be verified to be believable sources. They can't just be believed because they're in a list somewhere. Again, there is no evidence whatsoever that Stoke City were formed before 1868. There is also no ambiguity regarding the Daily Post article. It quite clearly states that the club is a new one, only started that season.Kivo (talk) 18:14, 5 May 2019 (UTC)

You are mischaracterising the sources, and mistaking the way that verifiability works in Wikipedia. The three books I cited are edited and published by reliable publishers. The Burden and Morse book, in particular has more to say on the subject than the simple list entry you claim. They all, independently, give the founding date of the club as 1863. You can't simply dismiss them because you disagree with what they say. It may be that these books are wrong and the Birmingham Daily Post article is correct, but at the moment, the majority of the evidence available to us favours the 1863 date. Thanks, Railfan23 (talk) 18:20, 5 May 2019 (UTC)

All I can find in the Burden & Morse book is the sentence "Formed as Stoke Ramblers as early as 1863". Where is the evidence for this claim? Not a single 'source' that claims 1863 shows any evidence to back up the claim. No contemporary newspaper reports, club minutes, nothing. The earliest mention of Stoke Ramblers in any contemporary source is from 1868, when it is referred to as a new club. Kivo (talk) 18:28, 5 May 2019 (UTC)

How about the current compromise, where the evidence on both sides is presented to the reader? Railfan23 (talk) 19:09, 5 May 2019 (UTC)

Yes this is fine, apart from the sentence that states the club to be the second oldest league club - obviously this is disputed too. Rather than labelling them the second or third oldest league club, it would be better to delete the sentence altogether and just state they were founder members of the Football League in 1888.Kivo (talk) 19:50, 5 May 2019 (UTC)

That seems reasonable. Railfan23 (talk) 19:52, 5 May 2019 (UTC)

Ways to improve 2019–20 Northern Counties East Football League

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Thanks for creating 2019–20 Northern Counties East Football League! I edit here too, under the username Boleyn and it's nice to meet you :-)

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NWC

@Kivo:Thanks for your work on the NWC article for the forthcoming season. A while ago, 1874 Northwich announced that they were planning to move from Winsford's gorund and would be sharing at Barnton's ground for the next two seasons. I've seen nothing since, but am assuming that the new arrangements will be taking place. Drawoh46 (talk) 05:59, 20 May 2019 (UTC)

Speedy deletion nomination of Category:Handsworth Parramore F.C. players

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Category and image renames

Hello Kivo. When a club is renamed, please do not create new categories for the players/managers and empty the existing ones. You need to get the existing categories moved/renamed by requesting it at Wikipedia:Categories for discussion#Speedy renaming and merging. Also, when they release a new badge, please upload it at the same location as the existing one rather than uploading in a new version, otherwise this creates issues with orphaned non-free files (they don't seem to have released their new badge yet and the old one is still used on the club website). Number 57 13:53, 16 June 2019 (UTC)

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Maps on old league seasons pages

I've decided to delete maps, cause this data was unsourced. And mostly maps point the locations of CURRENT stadiums. Clubs may be relocated since that time. Martinklavier (talk) 07:21, 31 March 2020 (UTC)

I made sure that grounds were those used at the time.

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Doncaster League

Hi there. I notice that you have created a new article at Doncaster Saturday Football League and then re-directed the article under the new name to it. This is totally the wrong procedure. If the league simply changed its name, you should have moved the article to the new title, not created a new article. I'm going to revert all these edits, move the article per the correct procedure, then do a page merge history. You may wish to check the article afterwards to make sure I haven't missed anything -- ChrisTheDude (talk) 18:32, 29 August 2020 (UTC)

This is not the first time this has happened... Number 57 20:25, 29 August 2020 (UTC)

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Nomination of 1997–98 Kent Football League for deletion

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Gary Ingham

Can you please explain why you removed references from this article? GiantSnowman 11:32, 6 November 2020 (UTC)

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When moving articles to disambiguate them from a base name, please ensure you change the old base name page into a disambiguation page and fix all broken links. I have done this at Conor Grant now. GiantSnowman 20:06, 1 February 2021 (UTC)

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Contradictory information

Hello Kivo. I notice that at Barnsley Association League, you listed Worsbrough Bridge as having won the league in 1950–51 and 1952–53. However, on the Bridge article, you listed them as winning it in 1956–57 (when Houghton Main Welfare won it according to the league article) and 1959–60 (Cortonwood Miners Welfare). Which is correct? Cheers, Number 57 22:03, 20 December 2021 (UTC)

• • Hi. Up to the late 1960s, the Barnsley Association League determined its winner with an end of season play-off between the top four teams - meaning sides could finish top of the league table and still not win the championship. Worsborough topped the table several times but only won the play-off final in 1951 and 1953.Kivo (talk) 15:09, 25 December 2021 (UTC)

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Proposed deletion of Arthur Grainger

The article Arthur Grainger has been proposed for deletion because of the following concern:

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Proposed deletion of Keighley Central F.C.

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Non-notable club now that the rules are changing: Wikipedia:Village pump (policy)/Sports notability

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Nomination of Keighley Central F.C. for deletion

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1st Surry Rifle F.C.

Proposed deletion of 1st Surrey Rifles F.C.

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Nomination of Brimsdown F.C. for deletion

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BrigadierG (talk) 19:08, 10 July 2022 (UTC)

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Speedy deletion nomination of Newark F.C. (1880s)

A tag has been placed on Newark F.C. (1880s) requesting that it be speedily deleted from Wikipedia. This has been done for the following reason:

stub page with an inaccurate title and a proper page elsewhere

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Am proposing the deletion of Newark F.C> (1880s) - I've found some more details and the club was actually founded in 1868, and dissolved before World War 1. So have put the full details on the original Newark F.C. page.

Agreed with everything you say, best to delete the page now the former Flowserve have changed name again. Kivo (talk) 08:38, 18 October 2022 (UTC)

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Doncaster City AfD

You will have seen my contributions to the Doncaster City AfD and as you know, I have voted for its retention, but also noting the established notability criteria, which is your sole reason for you starting this AfD, so that we avoid the principle that every Step 7 team is suddenly now seen as notable.

As you will have seen, I made the comment about the CMA being a special case due to its multi-county reach, and my suggestion that the North and South Division teams have their own articles, but that only the CMA is included in this, and only due to its geographical reach to ensure what I know you are concerned about, that a president would be set regarding Step 7, and I feel that this concern is very legitimate.

What are your thoughts about the CMA being seen as a special case - ie that this Step 7 league, and only this Step 7 league, is seen as notable enough for its teams to have their own articles on Wikipedia.Rillington (talk) 10:33, 7 February 2024 (UTC)

I don't think this is a good idea – the CMA's reach is not unusually large, nor is it the only cross-border league at this level. Clubs at step 7 can be notable if they have previously played at a higher level or in the FA Cup/Vase, but a blanket allowance for CMA clubs would not work IMO. Number 57 17:25, 7 February 2024 (UTC)

You will have seen that the Doncaster City article has been kept and, as I indicated before, I feel that all CMA top division clubs should also have their own article on the grounds of the geographical spread of the CMA over several different counties. However, I'm concerned that my efforts might be in vain due to them subsequently being defeated on the notability grounds established many years ago. Which, if any, other CMA clubs which have not previously played at Step 6 or higher, do you think should also now have their own article? Rillington (talk) 06:47, 19 February 2024 (UTC)

Proposed deletion of Angels F.C.

The article Angels F.C. has been proposed for deletion because of the following concern:

No secondary sources, fails WP:ORGCRIT.

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Nomination of Dearne & District F.C. for deletion

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Dafydd y Corach (talk) 07:43, 20 May 2024 (UTC)

Crap articles (again)

I have asked you a couple of times in the past, but I will ask again: If you are going to start articles on new step six clubs, please do a proper job and make sure they are well-referenced with reliable, independent, non-database sources. Sourcing to the FCHD or a league website does not count for WP:GNG. The D&D article would almost certainly have been deleted if you had left it in the state it was as there was no evidence of it meeting GNG at the time (I've since added several sources) and you provided none in the AfD. Number 57 00:44, 21 May 2024 (UTC)

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