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I am responding to your comments on my talk page. What I have to say to you here might be hard for you to hear because I see from your discussions above that you SEEM to favor gender-ginning project pages, you SEEM to be "anti-conservative" (whatever that POV means to you personally) and you SEEM to be blind to the insane bullcrap and inane cowcrap (conservative, liberal or whatever) that prevails in the NAME of NPOV on Wikipedia. However, I am independent editor with a hard science background who has no problem separating people from their PERSONAL POV's so please refrain from taking what I say to you PERSONALLY. Instead, I ask that you consider the professional editing issues I raise here. I have real concerns about the rape of reason that reigns here on Wikipedia in the name of so-called consensus. I suggest you google Esquire magazine's NOV 05 Greetings from Idiot America for a better take than I can offer you on really happens on Wiki as well as on other online forums where mob rule is welcome. As with any topic it is always instructive to see what the other side (such as) has to say. This 'anti-wiki' take matches my take on many 'loaded' wiki articles where partisan propagandists rule.
In particular, I am concerned about the rampant use of Maoist mob methods on Wiki, the (all-to-visible) ease with which totalitarian gangs get away with slander, character assassination and censorship on religious, on psuedo-religious (say the psuedo-science of inane politically- deterministic Gender Studies or the idiotic psuedo-religious side of the biologically-deterministic Evolutionary Psychology) and on other politically correct articles and the apparent lack of concern from editors like you about these totalitarian tactics. To toss away credible content, to call other editors pejorative names, and to use false forms of consensus to censor so-called "problematic" content is totalitarian by it's very nature. This kind of conduct destroys the credibility, the NPOV balance, and the completeness of all associated articles. (One can easily see the distorted pandering to gender-ginning propaganda in ANY gender-related article or project...one of your topics of interest, one of many topics (pro and con) where politically inspired psuedo-science rules, and a topic where widespread totalitarian tactics by it's proponents have been well documented by credible critics.) This widespread mob mayhem is so sad because Wiki is indeed a powerful platform within which to create credible content.
Before I discuss specifics with you and before I help you in any way, I need to know that you care about, did do something about and are willing to do something about these serious editorial process issues. I need you to show me how you face totalitarian tactics (preferably on your favorite topics where someone offers opposing but well-sourced and credible content), how you insist on reasonable and respectable discussions IRREGARDLESS of your personal POV's about politics, 'gender', or whatever, and where you are willing to back other opposing but credible editors against mean-spirited barrages from totalitarian gangs. I will be glad to assist any editor who cares about well-established Western standards of free speech and reason-able dialogue. Do you care more about these standards than you do about your personal, political or other POV's or are you an editor who uses (inane) ends to justify (ugly) means? No offense, but I need to know who I am dealing with here before I begin to "help" you do whatever it is you need my help to do. I will be glad to discuss discussion 'methods' issues in more depth with you should you care to. That might be one way we could come to some common ground given that we seem to have a few differences in how we see particular topics...and especially those topics within which well-documented totalitarian thugs predominate.
I welcome your reasonable and respectable responses back. I ask that you point me to any administrators you know on wiki who are familiar with totalitarian tactics. I will be glad to listen to any constructive criticisms of any edits I have made that could be construed as un-reason-able, as personally pejorative or as unsourced. However, I will not allow any other editors to mob me just because I bring content in that is 'uncomfortable, 'problematic' or politically incorrect. I have a right to take on any IDEAS that I like boldly and with credible sources. I insist that I be allowed to engage in reasonable discussions rather than mere Maoist mob repressions. I also insist on a single civil standard for all editors so please use the same standards for me than you use for yourself and for other editors. Please show me what nice (no nice-vice) responses look like on Wiki. Thanks,Anacapa 03:42, 11 May 2007 (UTC)
what I just did wasn't vandalism, thanks anyway —The preceding unsigned comment was added by L.P, Cheshunt (talk • contribs) 23:53, 12 May 2007 (UTC).
You commented on Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Qian Zhijun. It has been closed early after a confusing and IMO unfortunate sequence of events. I have now listed it on Deletion Review. You may wish to express your views there. DES (talk) 01:02, 13 May 2007 (UTC)
I am glad I checked the posting for Induced dyslexia so that I discovered before May 20th that you had deleted it.
I am new to contributing to Wikipedia so that I am not sure of the procedures to make sure that there is proper validation and verification of posted items.
The basis for my posting was a personal discovery as to why I was having a horrendous difficulty understanding text material for about a 5 year period. When I got new progressive glasses with a "corrected prescription" after 4 years, I also got reading glasses to wear while at work and while using my computer. About 6 months ago thanks in part to the "Cambridge spelling sample" I discovered that the loss of comprehension problem was from the effect if the reduced peripheral vision inherent in progressive glasses.
See http://www.mrc-cbu.cam.ac.uk/~mattd/Cmabrigde for the original article and additional references.
I am currently working with the Chairman of the Ophthalmology Department of Emory University to see if they can provide additional documentation and cases of this vision problem. He is very aware of the reduction of peripheral vision that is inherent in progressive glasses. In most cases, however, the wearer realizes the debilitation of progressive glasses and gets either bi-focals (which I now have) or tri-focals without bothering to analyze or understand the mechanics of the problem. I seem to be unique in thinking that the vision problem I was having was internal or emotional rather than because I was wearing the wrong glasses. It seems that I failed to understand the difference between being able to see the "Big E" and comprehending what I was reading. I also failed to understand the optician’s priorities for satisfying most patients was that they "look good" rather than their being able to "see well."
If you will let me figure out how to add proper additional documentation, I would greatly appreciate having the article re-posted.
Thank you,Hold2file 15:06, 16 May 2007 (UTC)
In trying to find out how to get my "Induced dyslexia" page reposted, I feel like the kid who walked into the wrong door and into the inner chambers of the High Priests.
I am indebted to Wikipedia for the almost infinite amount of information available. It has become the equivalent of Douglas Adams' 1980 "Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy."
Hopefully, you will re-post my article on "Induced dyslexia" so that I can provide (and learn how to provide) the additional documentation. However, in trying to learn how to contact the administrators, I am in awe of the resiliency and depth of the information in and on Wikipedia that far exceeds my imagination or lifetime to investigate.
Is there a support group for Wikipedia Addicts or do they just become Editors?
You could call it "Non-Sequiturs Anonymous."
Allan HytowitzHold2file 15:27, 16 May 2007 (UTC)
I don't like breaking conversations up all over the place. Do you want to here (and I'll monitor) or my page or anacapa page's talk page or..? jbolden1517Talk 21:19, 17 May 2007 (UTC)
WP:CSN#Anacapa. DurovaCharge! 19:46, 1 June 2007 (UTC)
That IP user is not in California, according to WHOIS. Anacapa and Hotpotatoes is. Therefore, that IP is neither of them. According to what I read, that IP edit just cites the wikipedia rule and does not defend Anacapa (or if it did, it wasn't a very convincing defense). Feddhicks 23:27, 3 June 2007 (UTC)
Although I appreciate your long hours of work on the Anacapa case, I need to make a request regarding the discussion. At two different points in the current thread you invoked my name and made a representation, and both times your interpretation clouded the discussion's central issue. The first time, a good-faith inadvertent phrasing forced me to respond because a reader could have misunderstood my indef block as a serious breach of administrative ethics. The second time, you advanced a subtle inaccuracy about my basis for banning. That compelled me to make a second clarification.
It would be a shame if the discussion goes off course and fails to conclude because of these tangents. Please be more careful in the future. I specialize in handling the site's most disruptive editors, some of whom would attempt to mine comments such as yours to construct spurious claims of misconduct against me. Since I often give evidence at arbitration proceedings there's a realistic chance that your posts to the ban discussion could cause evidentiary headaches for me weeks or months from now. I'd rather not go down that road, so remember you're always welcome to confirm with me via e-mail. Warm regards, DurovaCharge! 20:10, 4 June 2007 (UTC)
I left you a review over at editor review. I'm sorry that your request for review was not attended to earlier. --wpktsfs (talk) 23:10, 13 June 2007 (UTC)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User_talk:Lost_Angel - see last post.Lost Angel 14:31, 14 June 2007 (UTC)
Hi Cailil, as you requested, I looked at the edit you provided and I do agree with you that was a violation of WP:NPA. I have made a couple suggestions to Lost Angel that I hope will be taken in the spirit that it was offered. Let Lost Angel remove the warning from their talk page, it's understood that by removing them, they are acknowledging the warning was received. Sorry it took so long to get back to you, I've been fighting off migranes today. SirFozzie 17:41, 14 June 2007 (UTC)
The other user contested that section quite a while ago. He then added quite a few references to that section. After some debate, other editors came in and settled on that paragraph as it is. Then the editor himself just yesterday singlehandedly decided the paragraph was of no use and deleted it entirely. It's been a very confusing situation. I don't see any reason why the paragraph should be deleted. It has citation and it is on-topic. Just because this editor doesn't like that paragraph doesn't mean it deserves to be deleted. Andrew Parodi 04:42, 21 June 2007 (UTC)
Hi Cailil, thanks for the links to instructions to write wikipedia articles. I couldn't find them before I added the "criticisms" section. I had another look at the warhammer article and noticed that much of the rest of the content does not have sources either (for example the "hobby" sections is marked thrice with "citation needed" . This leads me to believe that there must be different rules for citations for different content. Infact I notice to my surprise that this article only includes two references in total. With sentences such as: "Most long term players feel that sixth was a more balanced edition of the game than previous incarnations[citation needed" (6th and 7th edition)going uncited.
Any information you could give me about this would be appreciated.
Also I notice you are interested in gender studies. Living in Japan now has brought issues of gender to my attention more than ever before (a Asahi Shimbun poll done around 2000 showed that still 50% of Japanese men feel that woman's rightful place is primarily in the home!). As far as I have noticed here all the "tea ladies", "office ladies", and face to face service staff at banks and post offices are women. And all the managerial staff are men. Certainly makes me feel better (but still perfect) about New Zealand's (my home country) gender relations! Japanese exceptionalism generally keeps foreigners shying away from researching topics such as this and still rampant (and still legal)racism. I widening gap between woman's expectations and cultural and work realities is one of the main drivers behind Japan's low low birth rate (woman are no longer so happy to give up their career completely to raise their family; which is generally a requirement for mothers who find significant barriers to re-entering the private workforce once they have had children). I imagine this would be a very fertile area of research.
cheers Paul—The preceding unsigned comment was added by Cybergroover (talk • contribs) 03:08, 3 July 2007.
Thank you for your support. This is going to be a long argument, I fear. --Orange Mike 21:03, 26 July 2007 (UTC)
I appreciate your comments on the CN board. We have an open dispute between two users. The user asked me to help create a template. Through the course of the template creation, he became increasingly agitated because I would not institute a number of features without discussing them first. Many subtopics were started within a very short time and it became very hard to address each one. WP:OWN and WP:NPA, amongst a handful of other things, were violated several days ago by said user. He was informed politely that WP:OWN is not a good thing, and that it would be nice if he would not attack others. The attacks continued, and at one point, he even appologized before picking back up again. These issues were bought to the attention of the community through various steps in WP:DR. What happened? The attacks continued. The statements of WP:OWN continued. And the only discussion with regards to the issues at hand could be summarized in one statement: "I'm right because it's obvious, so there is no dispute." (I'm creating that quotation as if i were said user). The user started to follow me around and harass me. Finally, after approximately a week of this stuff - I attacked the guy. He has shown no respect for those that don't agree with him. Nobody else wanted to address the issue, so I did what I felt was appropriate.
Do many people consider that to be a absolute no-no: definitely. Am I one of those people? Absolutely not. I believe it is okay to attack people who show no regards for others in this world. I will only resort to this when absolutely necessary, and had someone stepped in - then this would have never happened. I even opened a wiki alert and nothing came of that (WikiAlert). The failure of the wiki system is that the onus remains on me to have this situation dealt with. I have suggested that we both agree not to edit the template. I have suggested that we both agree not to edit the template on article pages. I have suggested any number of compromises, and nothing is acceptable to the user. I don't see why I should have to start ANOTHER process where everything has to be formatted in a particular way, and everyone has to be noted on the various pages when people involved react with RFM notification is treated as WP:vandalism. I am not making any content related edits to wikipedia until this situation is resolved. Juan Miguel Fangio| ►Chat 22:20, 28 July 2007 (UTC)
(out dent) thank you for your response. I have looked into this a bit (there's still more to do) and I will be talking to Seraphimblade, as well as other admins. I want to ask you if my impression of events is accurate. In fact I have a few questions
Sorry for all the questions but this dispute is so messy that I'd like to see if I'm anywhere near right in my understanding of it--Cailil talk 22:26, 29 July 2007 (UTC)
Thanks for the help with Bride burning - its going to be a long process getting that to good article standard but I'm in here for the long haul. Best regards--Cailil talk 21:07, 5 August 2007 (UTC)
I don't see any blatant vandalism there, but it certainly seems that the editor is making some very contentious edits, and does very much need to discuss them. You do at least need to make an effort to engage that editor in discussion (which you may have, I don't know). If (s)he refuses or ignores your offers to discuss, and continues to insert the disputed material despite consensus against it, there are certainly steps that can be taken from there. But you'd be surprised at how often an offer to discuss works. Seraphimblade Talk to me 06:10, 6 August 2007 (UTC)
He's making some highly POV edits to Feminazi and reverting other editors. Since you've warned him recently, thought I'd let you know. --Orange Mike 13:21, 15 August 2007 (UTC)
Hi edgarde, just to let you know I submitted those two IPs (189.155.54.100 & 89.210.111.19) to WikiProject on open proxies to confirm that they are open proxies - if the User behind these IPs is Anacapa it would start to really worry me - he never used open proxies before--Cailil talk 23:22, 15 August 2007 (UTC)
Hi. I'd appreciate it if you would check out the article on White people and comment on this discussion. Thanks, Slrubenstein | Talk 06:12, 19 August 2007 (UTC)
I saw your comments on the ANI post about fourdee. I share your view that there has been an upsurge in racist posters. I was heartened by Jimbo's action in this case because no-one else seemed to notice Fourdee's white-supremacists rants, the pictures of weapons in his user space & his trolling of talk pages. There were so many red flags he was becoming quite a problem.
Recently I've been having problems with User:Loneranger4justice. His comments aren't exactly racist but they are similarly fringe. He doesn't post very often, but when he does all he does is revert to reinsert what are a mix of unsourced and fringe theories that claim feminists are nazis and that pro-feminist men are like KKK auxiliaries. I have a report page about it here. I've brought this to Seraphimblade's attention a month ago, but he didn't see the repeated reverts to be as povpushy as I did, so he recommended I RFC the pages and that I try to engage Loneranger4justice in discussion. I attempted this nearly a month ago - I left an NPOV warning with a message on August 6th. Since then Loneranger4justice has reverted without discussion 6 times across 3 articles.. After the first 4 I warned him with {{uw-npov4}}. About 10 days later (August 27th) he made a further 2 reverts to reinsert his preferred material.
Have you any advice on this? Has Loneranger4justice broken WP:NPOV or am I incorrect in this?--Cailil talk 17:06, 30 August 2007 (UTC)
Thanks for your comment - yes, I do think we need something like a 3RR for talk pages, only instead of three reverts, three "soapboxing" warnings, or something like that. The thing is, I fear there is little general support for this (for reasons that are sadly obvious) and I have no idea where even to raise the idea. Are you on the list serve? I was but dropped out well over a year ago, it would good for someone to raise the idea there to see what feedback it generates before trying to develop a formal proposal. But if you want to work on one let me know and I will help out.
By the way, I really value the incredible work you have done with the Feminism article. When I first came to Wikipedia it was one of a handfull of articles I worked on, but since then I have focused on other things and as you know really just check in every once in a while to leave a comment on the talk page. But I am sory there aren't other editors as knowledgable as you to help you develop it. You have been doing great things! Slrubenstein | Talk 09:26, 1 September 2007 (UTC)
My theory of the problem I'd like to hear more about what Durova thinks. My own views are a little complicated. I certainly think Wikipedia needs a hate-speech policy. However I do think we need to encourage free speech on talk pages and am very uncomfortable about blocking or banning someone just becuase he holds views I despise. Therefore, I do not agree with Matchsci that what we need is a guideline on racism. I would like to present a different analysis of the problem which i think justifies a slightly different approach without violating NPOV. I think this is the problem: we have content policies like NOR and V and NPOV for articles, and they do not strictly apply to talk pages. As long as people use talk pages to discuss improvements to the article, this (writing stuff that would otherwise violate NPOV, V< NOR) is completely fine, indeed, it may be a good thing to be encouraged, to keep discussions open and free-flowing. However, I think there are some trolls who have figured out that this expediency for talk pages creates a huge loophole: they can say things on talk pages that would instantly be reverted in the article. If they really cared about improving the article and intended on editing the article we could tolerate such stuff and move beyond it. but I think that some of them actually decide that they will not edit article pages. They are content merely to write on talk pages. Conventionally, the article is the end, and the talk page is a means to an end; these trolls, by abandoning working on articles, turn the talk page into an end in itself. What they have in effect done is turned talk pages into something that for them functions like article pages (a way to broadcast their views, make them permanently present at Wikipedia) without ever having to obey the content policies. This is why I characterize them as having "hijacked" the talk pages. While I do not feel comfortable banning someone for hate speech (though I do not defend it), I do NOT have any qualms against blocking someone for hijaking a talk page. Others, reflecting on Fourdee, have focused on hate-speech, or disruptive editing, or incivility. I am not convinced these are the proper points of dparture for rething our policies - for one thing, Fourdee was (if you can believe it) a civil anti-Semite most of the time. And were his comments disruptive? Only because they represented a fringe view - and my belief in NPOV is such that in general I do not want to discourage that (in a way, lots of talk should be disruptive - it is how original or challenging ideas enter a discussion). While I do not reject policies that guide personal behavior, I think we all too often rely on infraction of personal behavior guidelines to police Wikipedia. Let's just be honest: the problem with Fourdee was not his personal behaviro so much as the actual content of what he wrote, and our dilemma is that we resist policing content on talk pages. BUT if we can see how people like Fourdee treat talk pages such that they function as at least surrogates for articles, then such people should be held accountable to our content policies on talk pages. Anyway this is the logic I have been playing with recently. Please think about it.
EnforcementBe that as it may I do think we need a mechanism for blocking people from talk pages and, using 3RR as a model, I would say that if three different people slap an off-topic warning on someone three times, they shoulc then have the right to ask a fourth party admin to block if it happens again.
rationalizing with other policies And I do think it is worthwhile to take elements of an existing policty, namely this and this, copy them from the [Wikipedia:What Wikipedia is not] policy and edit them to apply specifically to talk pages, which is where these particular elements of the policy most often apply. I wonder if my "theory" should be proposed as a guidelins. I think we need a discussion of how "not a blog" and "not a soapbox" fit together - should they be merged? Are they one idea or two? i think we need to look at all policies and guidelines that touch on this issue and rationalize them, so they are not only consistent but each cover distinct problems.
templates would a "no soapboxing template" duplicate or complement these: {{Off topic warning}} or {{Notaforum}}? Again, I think we need to rationalize them. do they apply to increasingly serious problems, or different kinds of problems? I think we need an omnibus policy that lays out different kinds of abuses of talk pages and provides different warning templates with clear explanations of what makes them different/how to apply them. When you have reflected more on this can you compare notes with Durovna and see if she agrees? Slrubenstein | Talk 23:07, 1 September 2007 (UTC)
i hope you find these thoughts useful. Slrubenstein | Talk 22:52, 1 September 2007 (UTC)
I would be content for you to take what I have written here, whatever Durova has suggested, and your own thoughts, and draft a proposal - and then i can go over it and either revise it or raise points of discussion with you. I certainly think we have dicussed it enough at this point to lay out a rough draft of something Slrubenstein | Talk 01:05, 2 September 2007 (UTC)
Could you send me a link to your Anacapa report? I'd like to relay it to someone as a model. Thanks, DurovaCharge! 10:25, 1 September 2007 (UTC)
No, you didn't make a mess - you reported in good faith, and that is all that can be asked when making a report. Thanks for the understanding re my decision. Happy editing. LessHeard vanU 21:46, 11 September 2007 (UTC)
for the tip on Mentors; will follow-up. Sincerely, Shir-El too 23:17, 16 September 2007 (UTC)
I'm willing to compromise. I open to debate the issue in the talkpage with proper arguments and reasons. I'm willing to provide a sentence explaining that that name is controversial, and I'm also willing to provide a proper link to the relevant article. But when the other side is uncompromising and simply deletes and reverts everything it's simply a lost case. Honestly: I'm not even British or English (seriously: I consider myself rather a European and the Brits are all against the EU, the irony of this whole situation :). I'm just interrested in the accuracy of this little article in particular, and of all articles inside of wikipedia in general. What shall I do? Simply accept that someones can impose his POV through force? This is simply ridiculous. Flamarande 17:32, 17 September 2007 (UTC)
Hy, I placed the "Request comment template" as you suggested. I honestly don't know if the template is working corectly (I hope it does, but I don't think so). I also improved the article with a neutral statement that the term/name is controversial and objected by the ppl of the Irish Republic, including a proper link to the article British Isles naming dispute. That article explains the issues and the controversy to a large extent. I hope that you agree with all these changes. Flamarande 00:04, 18 September 2007 (UTC)
Dear Cailil, I've looked you personal page and I read this:
Current
gender studies
Feminism
Feminist theory
Bride burning
The Second Sex
Gender studies
I'd like to remember you that in "gender stidues" there are masculinism and "men's movement" too. The genders are two not only one, there are males and females, not just female! ;-) Bye --Giubizza 21:27, 22 September 2007 (UTC)
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