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I think that the important thing is to communicate what you wrote on my talk page, in the article. Also, to simplify things, (1) Bloom is suggesting that for Jews, "love" is fundamentally "justice," wheraes for Christians, it is fundamentally "charity." If there are ANY Christians who would agree with this, they should be cited. And if there are Christians who have taken issue with this, they too should be cited. (2) My sources stress the relationship for Jews between "love" and "law," that is, the Jewish notion of "love" is the basis for, the justification for, and is actually achieved, through observing all the law (the 613 commandments in the Torah, and the body of law in the Talmud). How does Christian thought differ from this (again, acknowledging that there are different views -- different interpretations of Paul's epistles and statements about Jewish law, and also later theologians understanding of the place of law in the Church, whether for them any Church law is fundamentally about "love" or something else? If Jews express their love for God and their neighbors by observing Jewish law (e.g. keeping kosher), how do Christians express their love? Maybe these are things you, or someone else, can address? Slrubenstein | Talk 17:32, 13 December 2005 (UTC)
Your intention of drawing on CS Lewis sounds very promising — thank you. However, I do not understand what you mean when you say "We love God by obeying both the spirit and the letter of the law." To my knowledge, Christians do not circumcise themselves (at least, not because it is commanded in the Torah); Christians do not have separate dishes for milk and meat; Christians do not make sure that all of the blood is drained from an animal before eating it (indeed, I think that there are devout Christians who eat blood sausage); Christians do not abstain from eating pork; Christians do burn fires and use electricity and write on the Sabbath ... in short, it seems to me that Christians do not obey the law at all. And if you really think they do, then what Christians think the law is and what Jews think the law is is radically different. And if there is a strong link between love and law, and Christians have a different notion of law, then they must also have a different notion of love. Slrubenstein | Talk 17:51, 13 December 2005 (UTC)
Your comment was neither long nor preachy; it was very informative and appreciated. Your account of the Jewish view of law is largely correct (there are some nuances you leave out but they are not necessary at this level of discussion. You should know that while Jews do not contrast "civil law" to "universal law," they do distinguish between God's commandments and laws specifically for the jews, and "universal" laws for all humankind. By the way, the universal laws are NOT the 10 commandments. See Noahide laws. Jews also believe that it is very possible for people to observe all of the law (not that it is easy, just that anyone willing to study and act consciously can do it, and do it all). I don't know of any published Jewish sources that discuss Jesus' words on divorce and murder. I imagine that a Jewish historian would say that at the time Jesus lived, there was no consensus among all Jews as to how to observe "the law" and that Jesus' interpretations were well within the realm of possible Jewish interpretations, but that his interpretations, like many others (those of the Essenes and Saducees, for example), did not appeal to the majority of Jews, and were inconsistent with the corpus of Jewish law and interpretation that became hegemonic among Jews after the destruction of the Temple. Now, as to why most Jews did not follow Jesus's teachings, and why they are incompatible with Rabbinic law, that is another question and I would only be speculating. One guess is that Jesus cared more about intentions than effects; the Rabbis were the opposite, caring more about effects than intentions. But that is just a guess and I wish I knew of some literature that explored this.
In any event, I think this has been a very fruitful discussion and we both have a clearer idea of the differences between Judaism and Christianity in this regard. I leave it to you to decide how to incorporate this discussion, at least insofar as it highlights important elements of Christianity that are not shared by Jews, into the article. I don't mean to put all the burden on you, but the section on the Jewish view of love is now very long, and the Christian section is very short. I just think it is only fair that the Christian views be given the same amount of attention and explication, even though I am obviously not qualified to do it. Slrubenstein | Talk 20:14, 13 December 2005 (UTC)
Pookster asked for clarification of the Jesus-Myth view, and I seconded his motion. Alienus then brought up a website by Earl Doherty (here's the discussion.). Oh, and I've brought out the ¶ 3 table again. Arch O. La 03:24, 3 March 2006 (UTC)
PS: Here's a direct link. I haven't read the page myself, but Doherty's credentials have already been challenged. Arch O. La 03:40, 3 March 2006 (UTC)
Something you said in another post made me realize, you're just the kind of person we need as an admin. You have acted fairly and in a non-biased manner throughout this whole mess. I don't believe you ever reverted to personal attacks (one of my own shortcomings as of late) and you tried to be fair to all parties.
I would like to nominate you for adminship. Is this something you would consider? --Avery W. Krouse 05:27, 3 March 2006 (UTC)
CTS, if you do accept than I will second. I'm still uncomfortable with Rob's latest trouble, but as it's only for 24 hours I can let it go for now. I suppose Rob could appeal. Arch O. La 05:31, 3 March 2006 (UTC)
What's the Latin word for "universe?" I've been trying to phrase a Theistic axiom: God, therefore the universe. Deus, ergo ---- Arch O. La 17:09, 3 March 2006 (UTC)
I think you'd make a fine administrator. It's not that huge a deal; you don't have to use your powers if you don't want to. Jayjg (talk) 19:33, 3 March 2006 (UTC)
Oh, go ahead! But please wait until Sunday Afternoon. And may _____ have mercy on your souls! ;-) --CTSWyneken 20:12, 3 March 2006 (UTC)
Best of luck if you do decide to go forward. Just one word of advice — I haven't noticed your name appearing much in project namespace (pages that begin with Wikipedia or WP in the title), so perhaps you should do a little bit of voting at AfD pages, or RfA pages, or making comments at RfC pages before you try. Also, what about a little bit of RC patrol, so that you have a record of reverting vandalism (assuming that you don't already)? If you don't want to go to Special:Recentchanges regularly, you could add some frequently-vandalized pages to your watchlist, even if you're not particularly interested in them. Some suggestions would be Adolf Hitler, George W. Bush, Michael Jackson, Pope Benedict XVI, Wikipedia, etc. If you have them on your watchlist, it should be easy enough to build up a record as a vandal fighter. Cheers. AnnH ♫ 21:49, 3 March 2006 (UTC)
Hey, you're the last of the "charter" members who hasn't signed the membership rolls! Your dedication to NPOV and reflecting scholarship (as evidenced by your Alito barnstar) will certainly be an asset to the cause. Check out User:Archola#The_Centrist_Faction.
Oh, and Avery also gave you a barnstar on your main user page. You might want to keep them together. Arch O. La 21:26, 3 March 2006 (UTC)
Things are moving so fast, I haven't had time to come and play. I'd move the Alito to the user page (I think it's a hoot!) But I'm not sure how regular it is. 8-)
BTW, is there a limit to how many Cabals I can belong to? After all, strange as it is for a Missouri Lutheran, I'm already the Worshipful Master of the Secret Order of Lutheran Knights! 8-) --CTSWyneken 21:32, 3 March 2006 (UTC)
Please check my user page (not my talk page) for a message from Ril re:Systemic Bias. Arch O. La 01:54, 4 March 2006 (UTC)
I've created a page collecting the discussions that led to The Centrist Faction (it was confusing having them scattered across four talk pages!) Arch O. La | TCF member 01:48, 5 March 2006 (UTC)
I'm a hawk baby. I'll take a diligence barnstar though LOL.Gator (talk) 21:43, 3 March 2006 (UTC)
When you have set up a sub-page for issue 6, please let me know and provide me with the link. Thanks, Slrubenstein | Talk 13:15, 4 March 2006 (UTC)
Our discussion on paragraph 3 is stuck on a debate on John 3:16 (JimWae has raised objections). See Talk:Jesus#Comments_on_Aiden.2FArchola.2FJimWae_version Arch O. LaTalkTCF 03:29, 5 March 2006 (UTC)
Yeah. As I understand it, the Greek work parthenos could mean either "young woman" or "virgin," and the Hebrew word in the OT prophecy it fulfilled simply means "young woman" Jim--our Jim, Jim62sch--and I have discussed this. But, we're getting nowhere with the Gospel of John.
Isn't it ironic that we waited until Lent to discuss the Christian views paragraph? Arch O. LaTalkTCF 04:01, 5 March 2006 (UTC)
... and there's endless discussion in scholarship about that. The big point missed in all this is that Jewish women of the first century were married at puberty. The only non-virgin young women were called something different -- wives, or women! But I'm not going there! Clean up last mess first, finish citation second, think about adminship third... --CTSWyneken 04:08, 5 March 2006 (UTC)
I've suggested "Christians believe that Jesus provides salvation." That's simple enough for the intro, and broad enough to cover everybody (I hope.) I also raised your point about "accept Jesus." Arch O. LaTalkTCF 11:01, 5 March 2006 (UTC)
That works, I think. I'll not get into the "where" int should go. Enough for now. --CTSWyneken 11:06, 5 March 2006 (UTC)
...and also the Virgin Birth, since some are still pushing to have that in the intro. We may need the documentation you mentioned earlier; we're not getting aware by saying, "We're Christians and we believe that Jesus was born of a virgin" since JimWae doubts that this is a significant majority. Arch O. LaTalkTCF 21:18, 6 March 2006 (UTC)
Another point: I archived/moved a lot of stuff last night. I wasn't sure whether we were done with the "moving on" section, so I left it out. Let me know if it should be archived. Arch O. LaTalkTCF 11:12, 5 March 2006 (UTC)
I might after church. Or, since you're an hour ahead, you might have a chance to do it while I'm in church. BTW the consensus on virgin birth seems to be to accept Jim's motion to discuss it later in the article, not in the intro. Arch O. LaTalkTCF 14:58, 5 March 2006 (UTC)
Thanks for updating me on the Jesus article. I added my perspective on including Greek/Hebrew in the intro to the talk page. I really appreciate your stabilizing effect at that article, and also all your work with sources! Wikipedia could use a lot more editors like you. : ) --MPerel ( talk | contrib) 00:16, 7 March 2006 (UTC)
Thanks for your message concerning George H. W. Bush. I had a look last night, and while it had been heavily vandalized that day, the vandalism seemed to have died down. It seems fine today. Some admins will semi-protect more hastily than others. I'm glad you told me about that page, anyway, as I have now added it to my watchlist. Cheers. AnnH ♫ 00:36, 8 March 2006 (UTC)
Thanks for letting me know. Jayjg (talk) 17:37, 8 March 2006 (UTC)
Thanks again for letting me know. Frankly, Haldrik doesn't seem particularly rational to me on this point. Jayjg (talk) 03:39, 12 March 2006 (UTC)
Cross-posted from Jim's page:
PS: To put it another way, I simply suggested a division of labor. You and I can continue to work at Jesus and Christian views of Jesus as we have been doing (nothing "radical" implied!), while SOPHIA and Jim will be working on Historical Jesus and Historicity of Jesus in much the same way (again, nothing radical implied!) I'm looking at the whole Jesus series (as per my outline) as a whole, and one of my long-term goals is to promote accuracy, consistency and organization within the series. Arch O. LaTalkTCF 11:54, 9 March 2006 (UTC)
Dear Haldrik: In attempt to get things back on track, if it's OK with you, I'm going to archive the whole lot, propose we focus on the text of the article and not on debate of the facts and try to move us on. It is clear to me that Jesus = Joshua = Y'Shua, but no amount of debating is going to change minds. I will try to list the options, then list reasons why or why not we should do one or the other and move us to discuss which will work. I'm going to ask everyone not to get into the debate over the name itself again. Does this work for you? Bob --CTSWyneken 14:27, 9 March 2006 (UTC)
Hey CTSWyneken/Archive 4, how is it going? Thank you for supporting my Request for adminship! It passed with a final vote of 73/1/1, which means that I have been granted adminship! I look forward to using these tools to enhance and maintain this wonderful site. I will continue regular article/project contributions, but I will also allocate a sizable portion of my wikischedule toward administrative duties :) Thanks again, and if you have any questions/comments/tips, please let me know! — Deckiller 04:40, 10 March 2006 (UTC)
Thanks for participating in my RfA. It passed with a final tally of 98/13/10, just two short of making WP:100. If you need my help with anything, don't hesitate to ask. |
Naconkantari e|t||c|m 23:13, 12 March 2006 (UTC)
No worries. I've actually had it on my watchlist for a few weeks now but each time I've noticed it being vandalised, someone has beaten me to reverting it. What other Christian-related pages are getting vandalised? Let me know and I'll add them to my watchlist. Sarah Ewart (Talk) 11:01, 14 March 2006 (UTC)
I found a reference to this book while I was traipsing through the Gnosticism pages. The authors argue that Christianity arose from Gnosticism, and the book seems to be popular among the Jesus-Myth folk. Below is a cross-post from Talk:Jesus: Arch O. LaTalkTCF 04:53, 15 March 2006 (UTC)
Here you are Bob:
Title: The Jesus Mysteries
Subtitle: Was the 'Original Jesus' a Pagan God?
Authors: Timothy Freke & Peter Gandy
Name and address of publisher: Thorsons. An Imprint of HarperCollins Publishers. 77-85 Fulham Palace Road, Hammersmith, London W6 8JB
Copyright: 1999
ISBN: 0 7225 3676 3
Page 158: " The lack of any evidence for an historical Jesus finally made us completely abandon the idea that the true biography of Jesus had been distorted and overlaid with Pagan mythology to create the gospel stories."
Page 133: Chapter 7 "The Missing Man". This whole chapter is a study of the contemorary writers and known documents that refer to Jesus. The quote above is in the last page of this chapter where they summarize their conclusions based on the evidence they have (not) found.
Glad to help - if there is anything else then let me know. SophiaTalkTCF 11:45, 15 March 2006 (UTC)
It's essentially written for a "lay" audience so I would not expect it to get much academic interest or aclaim. It's importance to the reader is that they can go into most high street book shops (in the UK) and buy a copy. When I have time I will investigate the list of historians writing at the time or soon after Jesus is said to have lived to see how this stacks up. SophiaTalkTCF 12:30, 15 March 2006 (UTC)
Possibly- but bear in mind that only 20 years ago in the UK people were convicted of blasphemy just for printing a poem that Jesus may have been gay so it's been pretty complicated by the state/church link here - not sure what the US set up is though. SophiaTalkTCF 12:53, 15 March 2006 (UTC)
Thank you, SOPHIA. As I understand it, the scholarship has been criticized for not taking into account the history of ancient Israel and the Jewish subtext of the New Testament, including the prophecies that (we Christians say) Jesus fulfilled. It is, however, written for a mass audience, and has become a bestselling popular work; even more so since it is once of the "sources" for The Davinci Code. Arch O. LaTalkTCF 18:40, 15 March 2006 (UTC)
Bob, good to hear from you. I'm not watching the developments there closely but I see your name often. FYI, it seems we have resolved the conflict at Talk:First Council of Nicaea#Antisemitism. Take a look if you have time and take care. ←Humus sapiens ну? 05:37, 15 March 2006 (UTC)
Well, I suppose we can go there if we must. Must we, though? The changes seem pretty non-controversial to me; just a matter of better writing, really. Jayjg (talk) 16:27, 15 March 2006 (UTC)
Just to clarify, I never said that I agreed with the implication that people who aren't Biblical scholars aren't scholars, I was pointing out that others have made this objection. What I am stating is in my Venn diagram, which is pretty much what you said: Biblical scholars and historians are not necessarily the same people.
As for the rest, I simply rephrased "critical Bible scholars" to "scholars of Biblical criticism" to clarify, I'm afraid that if we drop the word "critical," we lose the distinction Slrubenstein made between those who base their argument on religion, and those who bracket their religious beliefs. The former belong in the religious views paragraphs, the latter belong in the second paragraph. Arch O. LaTalkTCF 16:48, 17 March 2006 (UTC)
The problem is our set of scholars include those who would object to being called "critical" scholars and would have those who claim to be "critical" scholars object to them being so called. Large portions of the assumptions of critical scholars are rejected by such. This is not to say they are arguing from religion. For example, higher criticism rules out the miraculous up front. Prophecy does work, for example, because no one can predict the future. So that Isaiah knows Cyrus's name is proof for critical scholars that portion Isaiah was written after the exile. Traditional Biblical scholars do not rule it out because they allow that the miraculous is possible, although almost impossible to document. --CTSWyneken 16:56, 17 March 2006 (UTC)
Yes! Scholar! 8-) That's what a scholar does. They investigate honestly, aware of their biases, to be as objective as possible, discipline themselves to consider all possibilities from the data and come to as clear and supportable an opinion as possible. That's what makes someone a schoolman or womann. --CTSWyneken 19:33, 17 March 2006 (UTC)
Just to let you know, I just finished sorting, archiving, and subpaging Talk:Jesus, and this includes your favorite subpage. 2nd Paragraph Debate and its third archive are both over 90K in size! I wonder how many megabytes we've spent on this omnicontroversial paragraph. Arch O. LaTalkTCF 09:25, 19 March 2006 (UTC)
Well, I am not inclined to get involved solely because Gator1 and I are pretty tight. I think it would be hard for me to not pick sides in the dispute. Can you summerize who needs to be blocked and why?--MONGO 00:39, 21 March 2006 (UTC)
I'll review it again.--MONGO 02:13, 21 March 2006 (UTC)
I protected the page and left a note there to all that they need to work things out on the discussion oage. Let me know if there is anything else I can do.--MONGO 04:37, 21 March 2006 (UTC)
The article shouldn't be protected for more than a few days to a week...hopefully by not blocking them, they will work out their differences peacefully...maybe.--MONGO 11:20, 21 March 2006 (UTC)
I think enough is enough and we need to call in outside help. There are the same old problems happening time and again - I've watched this current "my scholar is better than your scholar" at least 3 times and I've only been on these pages 3 months! I hope it will be a positive processs as being on the other side I can see why Rob and Gio think the Christian editors are a "cabal" - at times like this they do act as one. As I keeep my head low I think I'm the only one on the "other" side that notes when you all have a doctrinal dispute and the "cabal" like behavior vanishes!
I'll give everyone the link as soon as I have made it - I don't know what I'm doing so am going to ask Ann how it's done. SophiaTalkTCF 13:56, 21 March 2006 (UTC)
I think the problems have never gone away - they were just having a rest ready to come back with vengeance! Seriously though I am not happy with the amount of reverting that goes on and the style that you favour can be viewed as "cabal" like and contrary to what wikipedia is supposed to be for. We have very disparate views who will not see eye to eye and I'm hoping this will help - we're not getting anywhere just hoping things will be ok so let's try something new. SophiaTalkTCF 17:45, 21 March 2006 (UTC)
The problems have died down at Jesus but are starting up again at Historicity of Jesus and especially Jesus-Myth. It's pretty much the same old arguments that both sides have raised before. There are several editors there I have only encountered in the last three days, and at least one [[[TrumpetPower]] has admitted to being a new editor. Arch O. LaTalkTCF 17:50, 21 March 2006 (UTC)
I was serious when I said on the talk page of the Jesus article that the EB is a valuable source of material if copying from it is permissible if done properly. While no doubt the ideal is as SLrubenstein noted on that talk page, it is not always possible to do that sort of research. Since you are an expert on copyright, I want to ask your help in this area.
Please take the following link, if you can: "Salmuth, Hans von." Encyclopædia Britannica from Encyclopædia Britannica Premium Service. <http://www.britannica.com/eb/article-9344629> [Accessed March 25, 2006]. If it works, and gives you access to the EB article, please let me know here, then I wish to ask you a further question. Keep the window to the EB article if you can, or make a temporary copy of of it for yourself, its very short. Drogo Underburrow 12:50, 25 March 2006 (UTC)
Take a look at what Hans von Salmuth looks like now - I couldn't have done this without the EB. I still feel like I'm ripping them off, but you say say its ok? Drogo Underburrow 05:13, 26 March 2006 (UTC)
I am at a loss to understand the objection to Will Durant as a reference. He has won both the Pulitzer Prize and the Presidential Medal of Freedom. Rick Norwood 21:49, 25 March 2006 (UTC)
It's not that big a deal, but to say that Durant is not a historian is like saying that Einstein is not a scientist. Rick Norwood 14:04, 26 March 2006 (UTC)
The invitation is to join the Christianity Knowledge Base. The question is, what license is the text on Project Wittenburg under? I'd like to add the Book of Concord to the CKB. Grigory Deepdelver AKA Arch O. LaTalkTCF 13:04, 26 March 2006 (UTC)
The final round of voting is in progress. Your opinion would be welcome. --T-rex 19:35, 26 March 2006 (UTC)
See latest attempts at putting dubious "Yeshua" in intro again... --MPerel ( talk | contrib) 09:18, 27 March 2006 (UTC)
Um, no, it wasn't me. I'm surprised you'd even ask: I don't know Hebrew. My only recent edit to the Jesus article was to make the map bigger (300 px rather than 200) so that it's actually readable. Grigory Deepdelver AKA Arch O. LaTalkTCF 16:39, 27 March 2006 (UTC)
Hi there. Point taken. Feel free to remove the prod notice if you think the article should be retained. (Incidentally, there appear to be two articles on the go now: David Berman (R.G.D., FGDC) and David Berman, R.G.D., FGDC). Cheers. —Whouk (talk) 12:34, 28 March 2006 (UTC)
Whether or not he is called God in the NT is, in fact, disputed by even Christian groups. In any event, the verses used by the anon certainly don't demonstrate it. Jayjg (talk) 22:21, 29 March 2006 (UTC)
Well, this is getting off topic, but I don't think the author of the Gospel of John was Jewish at all; he sees Jews entirely as "other". Jayjg (talk) 17:18, 30 March 2006 (UTC)
I don't want to sign my comments on this page, other than the URL, which is a URL used by hundreds of people. The reason behind this is because I don't want to identify myself. I have already been the subject of a behind-the-back email sent to some higher-ups in the synod, including a district president. I personally don't want to risk my neck. I don't want anyone to identify me or for such an email to happen again to me. I am afraid of District Presidents because they wield a lot of power. For example, one could force my pastor to either excommunicate me, and if my pastor doesn't, he could be removed from the synod by his District President. But don't worry, I'm not an LCMS member/LCMS churchworker, nor do I intend to become an LCMS member/LCMS churchworker. I do currently happen to be a member of a congregation that is a member of the synod, though.
I think the LCMS position on Creation on wikipedia must be qualified. It is dishonest. Even though the LCMS as a synod says it is Creationist and opposed to Evolution, once you get inside the synod's schools, it is obvious that at least some of them have persons in them that teach Evolution, and not just as a scientific idea, but as an old-earth actuality. Doctrinal discipline is not happening in cases where it said. And whatever teaching goes uncorrected is the teaching of the synod, no matter what the official position says.
What I meant with the, "Doctrine of the Gospel" was no more than what Scaer and Pieper write. Scaer writes with the one-doctrine concept, Pieper calls this Doctrine of the Gospel, "Scripture doctrines." Marquart also says that total agreement on Scripture-Doctrine is needed for fellowship, and that one can't just accept part of the Doctrine of the Gospel and not part of it. Scaer also says in this "Sermon on the Mount" that the Gospel incorperates the structure of the law into it. If you don't believe me on this, walk over to his office during break and ask him.
What is wrong with putting up "Antichrist," and listing the synod's teaching of the Antichrist? Some think amillenialism is a type of millenialist, but when they see what we believe about the Antichrist, they will know what we mean.
Zion on the Mississippi is a work known to contain numberous errors. If you wish to the the Wikipedia examination of Zion on the Mississippi, go to the "Stephan Martin" and click on the discussion, and you can see how abuse of Zion on the Mississippi really scews history. This book has a liberal POV bias, it should not be relied upon. The book I used is a pan-Lutheran book. "The Missourians" is only a single chapter in a book that goes extensively into the histories of groups now in the ELCA. Unlike Zion on the Mississipi, it is objective. Remember that 1880 was before many of the things that now color our glasses came about: Seminex, DayStar, the One List, Jesus First, publications like Christian News, unprecidented politiking during conventions, ect. ect. ect. While normally time allows for a clearer view, I'd have to argue that the view certainly isn't any clearer.
One of the marks of utopianism is the idea that people are basically good. The Missourians never agreed to this. Calling them a utopian community confuses them with the Amana communities of Iowa, where the Anabaptists there thought that people had merit and worthiness in themselves.
I also will note that the stating that there isn't really much difference between "evangelicals" and "traditionalists," is offensive and objectionable to many in the synod. I have been to loads of synod churches, and I see the diferences first-hand. Some churches have pastors that make the third use of the law the main thing, other have Law/Gospel sermons, some are creationist, some permit teachers (synod members)of old-earth evolution (that really believe it, too, not just because it is what Modern Science says) to be congregation members, another that has the confirmands on questioning day explain that if evolution is true, you might as well throw the whole of Christianity into the garbage, some that allow members of the Roman church, the Methodist church, the Baptist church, ect. to take communion, and some that don't allow certain synodical or district officials to commune, some that practice church discipline against free masons, another one that does not, some pastors that are permissive of women pastors in the synod, some that aren't, one church that keeps it's pastor on a month by month interim Call (so they can fire him at will by not renewing the interim call), other churches that think that the practice is indicative of false doctrine, some churches that have female presidents/officials, others that won't let females vote, some churches that think the Muslim god is the same God as the Christian God, others that think those that believe this are guilty of false doctrine, some that think communion with leavened bread is valid, others that think it is invalid, some that think communion with grape juice is valid, others that think its invalid, some that think allowing females to give testimonials in church is a good thing, others that think that allowing females to lector is sin, some that believe the synod is an umbrella organization so total agreement on Scripture-doctrine is uneeded, others that think the synod is dead because it has become an umbrella organization, some that redefine Biblical Inerrancy to whatever they want it to be, others that use Pieper's explaination of it, some that commune WELS/ELS congregation members, others that regaurd the teaching of WELS/ELS as heterodox, some that use the hymnal Christian Worship, others that use TLH, others that use LW, others that use the Lutheran Book of Worship, others that use Best of the Best, some that sing about how we "chose God now," others sing that such doctrine is a "false, misleading dream," some pastors that protest in front of abortion clinics, a teacher (synod member) that tells his students that life doesn't begin at conception so research that kills embryos is okay, another teacher (synod member) that says it is not a sin if you kill an abortion doctor or bomb an abortion clinic, some that think article 5 of the AC means that the ministry is a sacrament, others that think people that believe this are guilty of false doctrine, some that think Brief Statement is still binding, others that do not...I'm sure there is more, but I feel I've commented about it enough. You might criticize me for not naming names, proving myself specifically, etc., but the fact is I really don't want to risk my neck. These are not rumors but actual instances of what a congregation, a pastor, or teacher, all synod members, believe or do. I've been a wittness to most of these things I mentioned. Those that I was not a witness to, I either had a reliable person I know that was a wittness to or I've read from a credible source, like the notice from the president/BOD about the article 5 and the Concordia: TLC revokation.
You can see that this stuff here is really hot. I don't dare give out my name. Please overlook that I don't have my name out here.--192.160.64.49 21:57, 2 April 2006 (UTC)
Just wanted to know that I tried to explain my actions in the discussion page of the LCMS. If you want to deleate this, go right ahead, I don't mind, because I see I'm not following your organized style.--192.160.64.49 04:16, 2 April 2006 (UTC)
I'll help if I can but I'm pretty limited to what there is on the internet and my bunch of "heathen" books. They should be good for late date sources as they generally try to discredit the Gospels! Pansy Brandybuck AKA SophiaTalkTCF 13:48, 3 April 2006 (UTC)
I don't have any Jesus seminar books and my little town library is unlikely to have such stuff. I'ss search the web and order a couple of Robert Price books from amazon as I think I should read those anyway. Pansy Brandybuck AKA SophiaTalkTCF 20:02, 3 April 2006 (UTC)
Check ou these links - our work may have been done for us!
Pansy Brandybuck AKA SophiaTalkTCF 20:22, 3 April 2006 (UTC)
You've reverted this IP's edits to the "Life and Teachings" section, but I wonder if you've noticed the earlier edits to the second paragraph: . This IP added the clause "was additionally regarded by many as either a prophet or the Messiah." This IP also removed references to Pilate and sedition, leaving the clause "was sentenced to death by crucifixion."
I've brought this up at Talk:Jesus/2nd_Paragraph_Debate. Grigory Deepdelver of BrockenboringTalkTCF 11:59, 4 April 2006 (UTC) (The editor formerly known as Archola).
I'll do what I can, but my reverts are just as limited as yours are. I'd prefer to talk this out myself. Grigory Deepdelver of BrockenboringTalkTCF 12:08, 4 April 2006 (UTC)
I don't know how to flush 'em out. Grigory Deepdelver of BrockenboringTalkTCF 12:17, 4 April 2006 (UTC)
"Joshua" or "Yeshua"? Jayjg (talk) 17:06, 7 April 2006 (UTC)
You might want to weigh in on this discussion. Grigory Deepdelver of BrockenboringTalkTCF 20:50, 7 April 2006 (UTC)
Yes, I currently attend a Wisconsin Synod church because it's the closest geographically, although I have never officially become a member. I have put off the decision on whether or not to join until the Holy Spirit guides me through the confusion I feel over the differences between various American Lutheran sects. I was actually raised in the LCMS (St. John's in Sand Prarie, IL), ALC and early ELCA (St. Paul's in Hedrick, IA), although some parts of the ELCA have grown too liberal for my tastes. As an adult I attended and was a member of an LCMS congregation (Trinity Lutheran in Ottumwa, IA) until my parents passed away in December 2000. Grigory Deepdelver of BrockenboringTalkTCF 21:54, 7 April 2006 (UTC)
PS: My uncle (Rev. Ernest Elzey) is a fairly conservative ELCA minister. Yes, there is such a thing. Grigory Deepdelver of BrockenboringTalkTCF 22:03, 7 April 2006 (UTC)
You said that people should not respond to me unless I get a username. Please don't do this. Is it charitable? Even if I am at least a partially ignorant, sometimes even misinformed layman, remember that Wikipedia is for the partially ignorant laymen too. This is not only helping me understand the nuances of the positions better, but also it should result in an article that doens't confuse anyone that went to a Lutheran school or had a Lutheran pastor that used the term "consubstantiation" in a way other than theologians use it. Even the term "local presence" can be confusing. An ignorant Lutheran could think, "the bread is there three dimensionally, and the Body is "in, with, and under" it, so yes, the Body is there three dimensionally." That was how I thought. Of course, the three dimensions is a property that is part and parcel with the nature of bread, and the Lutheran would in no way think that we are eating a three dimenionsional hunk of flesh, a piece of body. Even the term local is confusion in and of itself. I thought that local meant "down on earth with us" rather than "up in heaven communion on Jesus's Divine Nature alone". The problem is that the Latin cognates were substituted for the Latin terms. This is the same problem with the new translation of the Book of Concord put out by CPH. I have read some of it, and it uses all these English cognates for complex, specifically defined Latin or German terms, which I largely do not understand to begin with. If I go off the meaning of the cognate, I could end up being wrong.--192.160.64.49 02:46, 8 April 2006 (UTC)
Two completely different topics, but in case you didn't know our friend Gator1 has had some trouble.
I was wondering where we could find some sources that compare Jesus and his disciples to other first-century Jewish movements. We only have E. P. Sanders, who argues that Jesus was a Pharisee, but, ah, using only one source is a bad idea. I've also heard that some think Jesus might have been an Essene, but I don't remember where I heard that. They always say to ask a librarian when you need to find information, so here I am asking. What I really want to do is to be able to place Jesus in His incarnate historical context for the life and teachings/biography section of the Jesus article.
Some sources that mention the relationship between Galilee, Judea and Samaria would also be helpful. Grigory Deepdelver of BrockenboringTalkTCF 06:56, 8 April 2006 (UTC)
Thank you. I do hope the Omnicontroversial Paragraph 2 gets settled soon. I've been working on other parts of the article, although my lack of access to scholarly sources makes this difficult.
It's been suggested that other than the nonexistence hypothesis and the mythological school, there are two main schools of historical thought: Jesus as moral ethicist, and Jesus as apocalyptic prophet re: Schweitzer, Ehrman and others. John K feels that the Jesus article ignores the Apocalyptic Prophet model. Grigory Deepdelver of BrockenboringTalkTCF 04:47, 9 April 2006 (UTC)
Then there's the Copenhagen school, which includes Thomas L. Thompson. I found his faculty page, which includes contact info. I suppose we could just ask him whether or not he believes that Jesus is a historical figure.Grigory Deepdelver of BrockenboringTalkTCF 12:59, 9 April 2006 (UTC)
I've made some changes to your Talk:Jesus#Proposed_paragraphs, hopefully you don't mind, of course if you do you can always revert.209.78.19.195 03:48, 10 April 2006 (UTC)
Oops, my mistake, that wasn't your addition, sorry.209.78.19.195 03:53, 10 April 2006 (UTC)
When you have some time (er, can you find time?) could you work on the Cultural and historical context of Jesus article? Specifically, this section: . Currently, the article is very top=heavy with context, and not enough content on how the context leads to new interpretations of Jesus' life. Also, when I worked on it I was really focussing on what historians mostly agree about. In the section to which I draw your attention, I think it is timely (and important) to start specifying different historians views (Sanders versus Fredricksen versus Meier versus Crossan). That is, showing how different historians draw on the cultural and historical context to make different claims about the historical Jesus. It seems to me that you are the contributor who has been most attentive to the works of these different scholars. And, your knowledge of them is much fresher than mine. Slrubenstein | Talk 16:09, 14 April 2006 (UTC)
Thanks for the Welcome,
I noticed that you are associated with a Lutheran Church based in STL (am I getting that write)? A pass the Concordia Seminary here in STL every Sat and Sunday biking to my favorite coffee spot, small world!
Steve
Well, I guess I have to aplogize for letting my dog run on your lawn(I aways cleaned up the mess, thu)!
Like this ?Steve kap 16:50, 17 April 2006 (UTC)
Hi there. The two things I particularly noticed were a couple of recent posts on Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard/Incidents.
The first was asking for an administrator to warn a particular editor about vandalism. I would expect a potential administrator to be warning vandals themselves, most likely using messages from Wikipedia:Template messages/User talk namespace (e.g. {{subst:test-n|The Ten Commandments}}), rather than asking an admin to place a warning.
The second was asking for action to be taken on WP:AN/I. I would expect this to be raised on Wikipedia:Administrator intervention against vandalism instead. While there's nothing wrong with not knowing about WP:AIAV, again it's something I'd expect from a potential administrator, and I'd recommend familiarising yourself with the procedure there.
Believe it or not this page was the product of many long and drawn out battles, one of which culminated in an ArbCom case, and is the rusult of a hard-won set of compromises. The current version is a relatively stable consensus version, si I would discourage you from making any major changes without first allowing for discussion on the talk page. Personally, I do not think anything should be deleted, and I would hesitate to rearrange it much (but am open to suggestions). I DO however see a need for more citations, and I see a major need for more detailed discussion of how major historians and scholars actually reinterpret jesus's life and teachings in light of the historical and cultural context. Slrubenstein | Talk 19:49, 19 April 2006 (UTC)
Thanks for clarifying your perspective. I agree that not all scholars consider the NT to not be historically accurate. You should know the history - this particular article was meant to represent the views of those hscholars who do not view the NT as entirely reliable/accurate. I think the question is, how properly to identify these scholars as a group. I used to call them critical scholars, but you took objection to that on the Jesus page. If you can think of a better adjective to qualify "scholars" I think that would be very useful, Slrubenstein | Talk 20:02, 19 April 2006 (UTC)
Thanks for your latest message. If you have not already, I will add "critical" and if you think it is crucial to wrote "higher critical" by all means do so.
Next wuestion: do you think there is a page where the views of Meier, Wright etc. will be represented? I think this is the fundamental issue - a sub-page for every major distinct POV. Ideally, all would be present on the main Jesus page, but there is no room for that. I am glad you agree that it is worth having a page representing the views of scholars who do not believe the NT is 100% historically accurate/reliable. But I do not think that this means the scholars you mention should not be represented somewhere. The question ius, where? Slrubenstein | Talk 18:12, 20 April 2006 (UTC)
Slimvirgin already moved it back. I suppose that discussion is in the archive, it is not on the talk page. There is a note from someone who did the same thing as me though, at On the Jews and Their Lies (Martin Luther)#Title. Maybe there should be a comment there, with link to the prior discussion. // Habj 13:33, 20 April 2006 (UTC)
I am not sure what I can add to the discussion concerning Luther. I do believe that he was an anti-Semite. This does not mean that he was an anti-Semite in the same way Hitler was (most anti-Semites are not). Nor does it mean that his anti-Semitism occured in a historical (and political and social) vaccum, or that we should just judge him and not try to understand him in the context of his times (this is true even for Hitler). Nor does it mean that he never did any good, or tht he is only an anti-Semite and nothing more. Wagner was an anti-Semite and the article on Wagner pretty much says this, and I can't see how anyone would object to his name being on the list of anti-Semites - but the article on Wagner is mostly about other aspects of his life and work, and you can bet he is on many other (benign or even honorable) lists.
In any event, following our policies, it does not matter what you (or I or Slim Virgin) think. If enough credible sources label him as an anti-Semite we have to put him on the list. Remember Wikipedia is not about truth, it is an account of what verifiable sources say. It goes without saying that the list of anti-Semites is not an authoritative list of "real" anti-Semities, it is like any list a list of people considered by some to be anti-Semities.
If you think that these views will make a productive contribution to the debate, by all means cut and paste them there. I haven't done that myself because I do not believe I am really adding anything of substance to the debate, and this may not be what you were hoping for, Slrubenstein | Talk 18:49, 20 April 2006 (UTC)
My best advice to you is that one should avoid getting caught up in the debates on the RfA, or worrying to much about this go-round. While this RfA is unlikely to succeed, I think if you broaden your areas of interest and contribution a future RfA would go much more smoothly. Jayjg (talk) 04:47, 21 April 2006 (UTC)
I'm pressed for time recently, but I'll try to take a look over the next few days. Thanks for bringing it to my attention. Jayjg (talk) 04:47, 21 April 2006 (UTC)
Would you please stop making baseless accusations? Did I indicate that I would use the admin tools? If not, kindly keep your thoughts to yourself. SlimVirgin (talk) 13:20, 22 April 2006 (UTC)
I'm not vandalising pages, and anyway I've stopped editing for a bit while I decide what sort of appeal I should make against the rather odd treatment I'm getting here from "some of the other editors", if you catch my drift. Legendary Steve 23:18, 22 April 2006 (UTC)
There are too many words there for me to want to try to get more than the gist. The only thing that really caught my attention was the distinction between quoting from an abstract and quoting from the actual work. Indeed, abstracts are (often) not written by the actual authors, any more than headlines in a newspaper often aren't written by the journalists, and blurbs on the backs of paperbacks aren't written by the novelists. I'd never given it much thought, but I'm going to be more careful about citing abstracts rather than articles. --jpgordon∇∆∇∆ 23:23, 22 April 2006 (UTC)
Hi,
You left a vandalism warning for User:Legendary Steve. I think that he's trying to act in good faith, but his problem is that he doesn't understand convention. Could I ask you to lay off the vandalism warnings? I've given him some helpful suggestions. He could become a great editor. - Richardcavell 23:30, 22 April 2006 (UTC)
Thanks for supporting my RfA. As an archivist, you are in the trenches and have my utmost respect. 8)--Rockero 23:58, 23 April 2006 (UTC)
CTS, when you have a chance please return to Talk:Jesus. There have been some rather heated discussions as of late. I'm just about ready to give up. Grigory Deepdelver of BrockenboringTalkTCF 00:50, 24 April 2006 (UTC)
Yes, after this weekend I've been thinking I need a break from the Jesus page, maybe from Wikipedia altogether. I don't think I can add anything to Tom Nieto or Uwe Siemon-Netto. Drboisclair invited me to vote on the Martin Luther page, but just reading the discussion there makes my head hurt. Then there are controversies surrounding the Talk:Christianity page. An off-site double blue page ("DWEEC" is the latest incarnation of the Christian Cabal allegations) released personal information that led to harrassment against User:KHM03, who felt that he needed to retire.
Things are getting out of hand. Sartre or Groundhog Day or something else, this weekend I've seen the souls that try men's times. (Aphorism tortured to make a point. Well, my soul has been tried as well as my time, so I suppose I can start using a straightforward quote as well).
Welcome back to Jesus. I hope things will settle down. Grigory Deepdelver of BrockenboringTalkTCF 11:55, 24 April 2006 (UTC)
I think you might want to check out this. Peace. Grigory DeepdelverTalk 23:20, 24 April 2006 (UTC)
Hi! As your RFA generated more oppose votes that support, I had to fail it. You are ofcourse free to try again after a few weeks. Regards, =Nichalp «Talk»= 06:54, 25 April 2006 (UTC)
If you think that is strange look at this-
Dear Robert, I really appreciate your vote and your kind words in my RFA. It has passed with an unexpected 114/2/2 and I feel honored by this show of confidence in me. Cheers! ←Humus sapiens ну? 03:36, 26 April 2006 (UTC) |
No, I won't protect the article. Just keep talking; you and Slim are well-intended editors who are perfectly capable of working out your differences on the talk pages. --jpgordon∇∆∇∆ 16:08, 26 April 2006 (UTC)
I have responded to you on User talk:Jpgordon. SlimVirgin (talk) 16:43, 26 April 2006 (UTC)
...but Jim62sch has raised a motion at Talk:Jesus. Grigory DeepdelverTalk 17:48, 26 April 2006 (UTC)
It was a pleasure and I have every confidence that next time you'll breeze through. The constructive criticism was general stuff that would make us all better editors if we heeded it, and I learned something as well. Thank you for being willing to be my guinea pig, my first experiment in nominating : ) --MPerel ( talk | contrib) 20:28, 26 April 2006 (UTC)
Oy vey what a contentious set of articles. I can't really get involved, if I did they would just call me the fourth member of the Lutheran cabal. I've also heard that when a web forum invokes the Nazis, it's time to find a new forum. Besides, you're the Luther scholar and I'm merely a partially ignorant layman, so there's not really much that I could add.
People seem to forget that Christ was born a Jew specifically rejected Catholic antisemitism. Unfortunately, Luther grew bitter later in life and his words were used to support the Nazis. The Nazis were masters of manipulation and could have made Maimonides sound antisemitic if it had suited their propaganda. In Luther's case, all they had to so was quote his later work and ignore his earlier work.
As an aside, Christian antisemitism has never made sense to me. Jesus was incarnated as a Jew, so IMHO antisemitism is automatically antichristian— or, more to the point, Antichrist-ian.
It's silly to put Martin Luther in both categories. Surely "Antisemitic people" is a subcategory of "Antisemitism"?
Slimvirgin seems reasonable, but Doright was basically trolling at your RfA (much as Robsteadman did at Deskana's RfA). There is a dispute resolution process. RfA is not part of it.
Well, that's what I think, but reading the talk pages of those articles gives me a tension headache. If you're looking for an outsider's perspective, why not ask Jim62sch? He's a former Lutheran and a current Agnostic, so surely he can see both sides. Grigory DeepdelverTalk 20:48, 26 April 2006 (UTC)
Dear Professor Smith, I regret that the value of your contribution to this website has been overlooked. It was an honor for me to vote in your favor. To quote William Shakespeare, "Hereafter in a better world than this I shall desire more love and knowledge of you" (As You Like It, Act I, scene ii, ll. 280-81). —Preceding unsigned comment added by Homestarmy (talk • contribs) No, I am sorry, it was I who wrote this, but if Homestarmy wants to join me in expressing this, I will not demur. Drboisclair 02:01, 27 April 2006 (UTC)
I'm sorry your RfA failed. I suggest more activity in the community, such as WP:AN and WP:ANI, WP:AFD, WP:DRV and other high-profile places where other users can see your name and get to know you. User:Zoe|(talk) 23:28, 26 April 2006 (UTC)
thank you for your message. I appreciate the thought that others are willing to help.
Shalom, Thetruthbelow 01:23, 28 April 2006 (UTC)
i thank you for the nice template message. If I need any help, I'll know where to look :-) Whopper 00:47, 27 April 2006 (UTC)
Bob, sorry: I'm on the run, this is sooo late. This is the exact quote. As you know, I like short reputable quotes on topic. Who doesn't? I own the book and can scan a page or two for you if you'd like. I didn't follow all the talks (this seems like a full-time job), it seems I missed some developments. I think we all should be calm and civilized. Best. ←Humus sapiens ну? 11:16, 28 April 2006 (UTC)
Hi -
I saw your comment on Jayjg's talk page. The "IP editor" was myself; I must have forgotten to log in before making a change. Sorry about that. Hasdrubal 18:46, 28 April 2006 (UTC)
Ave atque vale. I will stay away from the Luther pages altogether. The style of dialogue being currently used is a little too much, frankly. Three things, though - (a) wouldn't Luther's unfortunate role during the Peasants' War be just as worthy of inclusion in the opening paragraphs as the subject now being discussed? After all, if I am not mistaken, what happened in the first case was a direct address by Luther to the troops inciting them to kill; the troops proceeded to do as much. (b) The role of Luther's writings during the Third Reich is an extremely interesting topic; it would be good to see what the source now quoted in the introduction to justify the cited assertion. I must confess I am presently unaware of any systematic usage. (c) See my comments in the talk page on the subject of the passage being quoted. Perhaps a very close translation of the entire quoted text (as shown in German on the talk page) is in order? Hasdrubal 19:22, 28 April 2006 (UTC)
Also - what about some quotations from "That Jesus Christ was born a Jew", or a brief statement on Luther's apparent change in opinion? There seems to be a rather good account in Martin_Luther_and_the_Jews, for one thing. Hasdrubal 19:55, 28 April 2006 (UTC)
Codex Sinaiticus is challenging the crime of sedition in the second paragraph of the Jesus article. Since you helped to compile the sources, I thought that I would let you know. Arch O. La Grigory Deepdelver 20:46, 28 April 2006 (UTC)
Ahead of you. See talk:Jesus. --CTSWyneken 20:50, 28 April 2006 (UTC)
I hope that you succeed in your next RFA. You teach at a university? Anonymous_anonymous Have a Nice Day 21:26, 28 April 2006 (UTC)
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