Where the religion parameter is relevant
Right now in my sandbox, I have an example where the religion parameter is relevant, even though the subject is not primarily known for working in a religious occupation (though she does do that, too). Natalie Sims is a Christian, and this is relevant not only because she performs Christian hip hop, but because four years ago she wrote several songs for The New Classic by Iggy Azalea. This is important because there was significant controversy in the Christian hip hop community over this collaboration, and Sims herself said that she regrets how the collaboration turned out. My point with all of this is that this is something significant about Sims, there were two articles written about the collaboration and subsequent controversy, and only occurred directly because of Sims' faith. Maybe that's not enough to warrant the religion parameter, but I thought that it should be considered.--3family6 (Talk to me | See what I have done) 15:28, 21 November 2016 (UTC)
- Hi, 3family6. I agree with you that the subject, Natalie Sims, is a Christian, and that fact is "relevant". For that reason, it most certainly should be covered in an article on her. However, that alone is not justification for also activating the special purpose "Infobox field" for her as well. Unlike most fields in Infoboxes which can be filled with very little thought or concern (birthdate, school attended, place of birth, spouses and siblings, etc.), there are 5 special fields which should remain blank and unused unless a bunch of other requirements are met to substantiate that the use of the reserved field is required. (See WP:CATGRS for the 5 kinds of information which require special handling.) If she is famous for being a songwriter or a singer, the special field shouldn't be activated. If instead she is famous because she is religious, then it might be used. For example, religion is obviously "relevant" to Tim Tebow, and it is likely most people who know of him also know this relevant fact. But that does not justify the use of the reserved field in an Infobox. Hopefully this helps better explain the Infobox field situation. Kind regards, Xenophrenic (talk) 21:44, 21 November 2016 (UTC)
- If the "right" way to annotate religion and activities is going to be {{Infobox religious biography}}, could someone who knows how please make that an embeddable module? I see a lot of historic politicians who were also Presbyterian or Methodist lay preachers for many decades. This is a notable part of their biography, but not the reason they are notable. {{Infobox Christian leader}} is already embeddable, but not the simpler form. --Scott Davis Talk 05:58, 22 November 2016 (UTC)
- The "right" way to annotate a person's religion via an Infobox, which is only done when religion is a defining characteristic of that subject's notability, will likely be to use a "religious biography" Infobox template, which should already have all of the necessary fields. There are no doubt historically notable people who were also religious, and this may indeed be a notable part of their biography - and as such, it should be covered in the body of the biography - but as it is not the reason they are notable, this information won't be found in the Infobox. Xenophrenic (talk) 20:38, 26 November 2016 (UTC)
- That argument has been hashed over many times already. Most infoboxes contain info that is not the reason that the subject is notable. If the infobox only contained the reason that a person was notable, it would be a couple of lines at most, without birth or death dates or places, and rarely their name or photograph. It is supposed to succinctly summarise the key points about that person/thing, and for some people, their religious affiliation is relevant to their life story. --Scott Davis Talk 03:07, 2 December 2016 (UTC)
- I agree with Scott Davis. There are many biographies of persons where their ethnicity or religion is relevant especially outside of the US. In Africa, one's tribe is a defining characteristic of who one is and not just something trivial. In Iraq, whether one is Arab or Kurd, Sunni or Shia, is also relevant. Religion for people like newscasters or journalists is also important since their religious views could slant their reporting. Say for instance, Louis Sockalexis, the first Native American baseball player. Why would it not be relevant to have in his infobox that he is of Penobscot ethnicity. Or Ayaan Hirsi Ali, that she is a Somali?Patapsco913 (talk) 08:24, 2 December 2016 (UTC)
- I also agree with Scott Davis. Why does religion or ethnicity have to be "defining"? Aside from rational reasons for the applicability of a religion or an ethnicity to subjects of biographies, readers can have inexplicable reasons for being interested in the religion or ethnicity of the subject of the biography. I don't see us as being here to suggest to the reader what matters and what doesn't matter. If the sources place adequate emphasis on these dimensions of the person's identity I think we should dutifully pass the information along to the reader, in the Infobox. Sourcing of course matters. Do sources fairly often mention identity in terms of religion or ethnicity? Bus stop (talk) 12:50, 2 December 2016 (UTC)
- I also agree with Scott Davis: that this argument has been covered many times already. Apparently, however, Scott Davis is still hoping for a different outcome this time. As Scott Davis correctly notes, Infoboxes (and Categories and other Templates) contain relevant information that is not the "reason" the subject is notable, like their place of birth, or date of death. What Scott Davis fails to mention is that Wikipedia also has five categories of information which are restricted and require additional special handling. "Ethnicity" and "Religion" are two of those five sensitive topics, and as such, they were not to appear in Infoboxes, Categories or other Templates unless they were a defining characteristic of the article subject. If that information is merely "relevant to the subject" or "relevant to the subject's life story", then it should still be covered in the article, of course, and no one is suggesting otherwise, but that doesn't qualify it to appear in the reserved Infobox field. Because editors have ignored these requirements, and because a person's ethnicity or religious beliefs are frequently complex, nuanced matters not suitably conveyed by a tiny Infobox field, and because these fields are frequently the nexus of disruption and edit wars, the Wikipedia community has overwhelmingly decided to remove the problematic fields. Xenophrenic (talk) 19:34, 2 December 2016 (UTC)
There is no reason for "ethnicity" to be used unless it is a non-contentious defining characteristic of a person. The best source is, as usual, self-identification with that ethnicity, but right now the field is used to ascribe "Jewish" as an "ethnicity" where it is disallowed as a "religion" as not having self-identification. As a result, it is clear that the field should only be used where clear self-identification is present, just as with nationality, religion, etc. The prior consensus that self-identification is required is well-established. Collect (talk) 12:58, 2 December 2016 (UTC)
- Collect—Wouldn't "I am proud to be Jewish" constitute self-identification? Yet the Infobox at Bernie Sanders does not read Religion: Jewish. All of this wrangling over policy fails to serve the reader because common sense and countless sources support that Bernie Sanders is Jewish. Are we taking a principled stand when we studiously avoid indicating in the Infobox that Bernie Sanders is Jewish? Should material of this nature be omitted from the Infobox? Bus stop (talk) 15:03, 2 December 2016 (UTC)
- I am not allowed to comment on Sanders. I note, moreover, that where a person states they are "atheist", they do not then also have a "religion." Infoboxes on living persons are governed by WP:BLP and discussions thereon, and, so far, your position has not gained a consensus to overturn the existing consensus, which is in line with my position. Collect (talk) 15:25, 2 December 2016 (UTC)
- Our article does not say that Bernie Sanders is an atheist for the simple reason that sources do not support that Bernie Sanders is an atheist. Also you should be aware of our articles on Jewish atheism, Christian atheism, Atheism and religion, and others. Religion is not necessarily inconsistent with atheism. Bus stop (talk) 15:32, 2 December 2016 (UTC)
- Wikipedia is an international project, and while the USA might be the most populous majority-English-speaking country, this is the English-language Wikipedia, not just the USA Wikipedia. USA cultural resistance to naming people's religion (or ethnic group) is not globally-universal. The guideline I was referred to above includes:
General categorization by ethnicity, gender, religion, sexuality, or disability is permitted, with the following considerations: ... 6. The "defining" principle applies to gendered/ethnic/sexuality/disability/religion-based categorization as to any other, i.e.: The defining characteristics of an article's topic are central to categorizing the article. A defining characteristic is one that reliable sources commonly and consistently refer to[1] in describing the topic, such as the nationality of a person or the geographic location of a place. In other words, avoiding to categorize by non-defining characteristics is a first step in avoiding problems with gendered/ethnic/sexuality/disability/religion-based categories. ... Categories regarding religious beliefs or lack of such beliefs of a living person should not be used unless the subject has publicly self-identified with the belief in question (see WP:BLPCAT), either through direct speech or through actions like serving in an official clerical position for the religion. For a dead person, there must be a verified consensus of reliable published sources that the description is appropriate.
- I see nothing there that says that a dead politician who is documented in multiple sources as having been a Presbyterian lay preacher for over five decades should not be categorised as a Presbyterian politician. The guideline does not mention infoboxes, although something else says that similar considerations should apply. It does say that the characteristic should be defining of the article's subject, not defining of their notability. Therefore if it's OK to categorise him as a Presbyterian Australian politician, it should be OK to put all of those adjectives in the infobox on his article too. Scott Davis Talk 02:44, 3 December 2016 (UTC)
References
in declarative statements, rather than table or list form
- I see nothing there that says...should not be... - and - ...it should be OK to put all of those adjectives in the infobox...
- You are looking in the wrong place. The latest guideline regarding the handling of Ethnicity and Religion fields can be found here: Ethnicity in Infoboxes: →the field is to be removed from use and Religion in Infoboxes: →the field is to be removed from use. I assume corresponding policies and guidelines, like the one you just quoted, will eventually be updated accordingly.
- With that said, I still think you've overlooked a few things: (1) The lead section of that guideline you quoted does indeed note that it applies to "templates normally used in articles", of which Infoboxes are one type. (2) Your assertion that, "USA cultural resistance to naming people's religion (or ethnic group) is not globally-universal", appears to be misstated. Among English-speaking countries, USA tops the list by a large margin in still making a big deal of people's ethnicity and religion, especially in politics. The "resistance" to such pigeon-holing that you observe is from the Wikipedia community, not the "USA culture". (3) There doesn't appear to be an issue with your hypothetical Dead Australian Presbyterian Lay Preacher Politician even before the decision to remove the problematic fields. If reliable sources didn't consistently refer to, or introduce, the person as the "Australian Lay Preacher" instead of the "Australian Politician" in the totality of sources about the person, then the
|religion= field shouldn't have been used. If sources did consistently refer, describe or introduce him as a preacher, then also happen to note he was in politics, then the {{Infobox religious biography}} would have been used. Regards, Xenophrenic (talk) 18:03, 3 December 2016 (UTC)
- You are looking in the wrong place. - I was looking specifically where you told me to look.
- My comment about US culture was that as far as I can tell, in US culture, race, ethnicity and religion are often (not always) used in negative tones, to criticise or put down either the the in-group or the out-group of the label. Yet at the same time, it is important for politicians to be able to claim to be in a group, even if there is little evidence they belong there. I am not concerned about those edge cases, I'm concerned about the obvious ones where the person is notable for one aspect of their life, yet that may not be the most the most significant aspect of their life. I haven't found the example I was thinking of, but Gordon Davidson (politician) is close. His government biography mentions "Presbyterian" eight times. It was clearly a significant part of his life, but the reason he is entitled to a wikipedia article about him is his parliamentary role, not his religious life. --Scott Davis Talk 08:16, 4 December 2016 (UTC)
- I was looking specifically where you told me to look.
- If we're going to be specific, I never told you to look to WP:CATGRS for Wikipedia's latest guidance on why it isn't 'OK to put those ethnicity and religion adjectives' in Infoboxes. I actually told you to look here and here, for current guidance. If you'll recall, it was when you were making the case that Infoboxes were full of non-defining factoids - so why not ethnicity and religion - that I noted that you forgot to mention Wikipedia's historic rules regarding exactly that (the 5 sensitive subjects).
- ...as far as I can tell, in US culture, race, ethnicity and religion are often (not always) used in negative tones, to criticise or put down either the the in-group or the out-group of the label.
- Your assessment is, unfortunately, spot on. A person's ethnicity or religious beliefs are often weaponized by one group or another, and that is one of the key reasons the Wikipedia community overwhelmingly decided that having Infobox fields for them was a bad idea. Such fields are contentious, unlike "place of birth" or "date of death" fields. Infobox data fields are often propagated outside of Wikipedia, and then cached and mirrored without any of the nuance, context or explanatory elaboration found in the body of the articles. As an illustrative test, try searching online for a person outside of Wikipedia. Depending on which search engine, operating system and platform format you use, you'll likely see a cached portion of a Wikipedia Infobox, with 5 to 12 of its fields displayed, along with your search results. I can't count how many times I've entered a person's name in the Google search box, and, for example, seen Barack Obama's Ethnicity= and Religion= as some combo of Kenyan Islam Black Liberation Muslim Irish American.
- it is important for politicians to be able to claim to be in a group
- Doubtful; but I've no doubt many think it is important, especially in the States. That's why their ethnic and religious claims will be fully claimed and covered in the body of the article. The Infobox fields, however, are for people who do not just "claim" to be in a group, but are actually notable for being movers and shakers in that group. There are two popular misconceptions among Wikipedians, that the qualification for using the
|religion= field is: (1) "how religious" or observant a person is, or (2) how important the person feels his religion is to him/her. It's neither. The most devout, observant, even fanatical, religious adherent won't have the Infobox field activated unless those religious beliefs are the reason reliable sources take note of the person. Looking at your Gordon Davidson example, the |religion= Infobox field should not have been used. While his religious beliefs may have been "clearly a significant part of his life", as you say, that has no bearing on whether the field should have been used. What mattered, back before the community decided to do away with the field in general Infoboxes, was if the person's religion was the significant reason reliable sources took notice of him in the first place. (As a side note: the government biography you linked, which he likely wrote himself, mentions his religion only once, and not at all in their version of an Infobox - the other 7 mentions appear to be of church-related institutions.) Regards, Xenophrenic (talk) 11:10, 5 December 2016 (UTC)
- Xenophrenic—you point out in more than one post that an Infobox field for religion fails to capture "nuance". But this is unnecessary. It is understood that religious identity manifests itself differently in each person. Thus the fact that the name of a religion fails to convey "nuance" does not constitute an argument against the indication of religion in the Infobox. Bus stop (talk) 23:04, 8 December 2016 (UTC)
- Bus stop, you appear to be attempting to re-litigate the RfC community decisions, so you should probably initiate a new thread with that clearly stated purpose. But in brief response: in my comment immediately above, I spoke only of the "nuance" to be found in the body of the article, which is lacking in mirrored sites that only display the Infobox fields and not the article text. But I and others have indeed noted that ethnicity and religion are complex subjects not conveyable by a one or two word Infobox field. Your observation that "It is understood" (by our readership?) that the same one or two word entry in that field will mean something different in each article, and is therefore nearly useless as a conveyance of actual succinct information, lends support for the removal of the fields rather than detracts from it. In addition, per the MOS on Infoboxes, the expectation of a level of consistency across articles using the same field is not met. Xenophrenic (talk) 19:38, 9 December 2016 (UTC)
- You say "Because editors have ignored these requirements, and because a person's ethnicity or religious beliefs are frequently complex, nuanced matters not suitably conveyed by a tiny Infobox field, and because these fields are frequently the nexus of disruption and edit wars, the Wikipedia community has overwhelmingly decided to remove the problematic fields." It doesn't matter if a person's religious beliefs are complex, nuanced matters—because no one believes that a person's religious beliefs are not complex, nuanced matters. There is universal recognition that religion manifests itself differently in each person. It is not even correct that there are "religious beliefs". This is because there are atheists within religions. Though Christianity and Judaism posit the existence of God there is a not insignificant population within these religions that do not believe in God. See Christian atheism and Jewish atheism. We are not here to resolve what we may perceive as internal inconsistencies in the religions of the world. You may not like religion in the Infobox but stating that "a person's ethnicity or religious beliefs are frequently complex, nuanced matters" does not constitute a cogent argument against religion in the Infobox. Firstly there is no one that would argue that all coreligionists are of one mind. Secondly that statement contains the illogical notion of "religious beliefs" when in fact we know that a person can claim membership in a religion while simultaneously claiming atheism as their operant philosophy. You say that I am "attempting to re-litigate the RfC community decisions". That is not what I am doing. You are gratuitously posting comments about religion on a Talk page that exists ostensibly for the purpose of discussing Template:Infobox person and I am responding to your misguided, ill-informed, and gratuitous comments about religion. Bus stop (talk) 18:14, 10 December 2016 (UTC)
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