This is an archive of past discussions about Template:Ethnic Macedonians. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page.
Do not present minority view held in Serbia and the Republic of Macedonia only as mainstream! The western scholarship does not recognize the First Bulgarian empire as "Macedonian Empire". This POV will be removed. Mr. Neutron 20:32, 24 June 2007 (UTC)
I am sorry, but we have only your word that it is "minority view". It is perhaps minority view here in Wikipedia because of several aggresive nationalist Bulgarian editors of Wikipedia who want to impose opposite view by all cost. Regarding western scholarship, the problem with that scholarship is same as problem with Wikipedia - Bulgarians were simply more agressive to impose their view to western scholarship, which do not mean that this view is a Holly Bible. PANONIAN 17:36, 25 June 2007 (UTC)
Do you want to say that Republic of Macedonia have no history before 20th century at all? I am sorry, but everything what in history was located in the territory of present-day Republic of Macedonia is part of its history, especially former states and provinces that had same name as modern country and that were partially located in its territory. PANONIAN 17:36, 25 June 2007 (UTC)
Yup, and the history of the region can be found here. --LaveolT 19:15, 25 June 2007 (UTC)
@Panonian: No, I'm not saying there's no history before; nor am I saying that there is. All I am saying is that the history of before is never included in credible academic sources as part of history of RoM, unless with
disclaimers of the sort of Britannica above and then too briefly and with constant references to Greece Bulgaria and Serbia respectively; and except only in partisan highly discredited sources. As such, I find it unsou
rced to include all that here, especially on the grounds of the same name! Please bear in mind that this is the exact Macedonistic doctrine that Macedonia (country)=Macedonia (region) and other irredentist bullshit of the sort (see also United Macedonia). Disambiguation is a hard issue in Macedonia; and I am the first to suggest that "continuity" (historical or genetic) is immaterial and silly, however I am strongly opposed to misinformation. Please read the featured Macedonia (terminology) (of which I am the proud main contributor) to see who was what and when, because that's all we need to describe in WP. On a side nationalistic note, me and you were supposed to be on the "same side" in most issues, and I appreciate the fact that you may sound against the flow, but this is not our issue here, because neither of us is a nationalist. Our issue is correct information based on credible academic sources. NikoSilver 19:09, 25 June 2007 (UTC)
NickoSilver why do you feel you need to insert yourself into every matter related to Macedonia?
This template was not created by some "evil Macedonian nationalist" it was created by a non-objective observer who wanted to create a template about the history of RoM. Just because a fringe group deny it, it is not fair to be one-sided. This view is held by many countries in the region and Bulgaria seems to be the only one that denies it. If we want to be progressive it is a good idea to move forward and present all views, rather then the minority one held by Bulgaria.
Alexander the great1 20:21, 25 June 2007 (UTC)
And which are those countries? Serbia and the Republic of Macedonia. Mr. Neutron 20:28, 25 June 2007 (UTC)
Perhaps, but Bulgaria is the only country in the region that thinks he was Bulgarian.Alexander the great1 20:44, 25 June 2007 (UTC)
Perhaps not. Wester scholarship+slavic non-Serbnian thinks the same way. Mr. Neutron 20:49, 25 June 2007 (UTC)
Neutron do you have any sources from the REGION (balkan) that think he was Bulgarian? This is important, as they would be more reliable then what some historian in England thinks that has never been to the area.Alexander the great1 20:57, 25 June 2007 (UTC)
Certainly. According to Greek history, he was Bulgarian. Remember: Basil II. Mr. Neutron 21:05, 25 June 2007 (UTC)
The Greeks support anything Anti-MacedonianAlexander the great1 22:00, 25 June 2007 (UTC)
What question? You posted an explicit racial/ethnic insult right above. Incidentally, who's "he", in your comment of 20:44? NikoSilver 22:43, 25 June 2007 (UTC)
Tsar Samuil Perhaps, but Bulgaria is the only country in the region that thinks Tsar Samuil was Bulgarian.Alexander the great1 22:47, 25 June 2007 (UTC)
Huh?? What have you got wrong here? Who gives a rat's ass what countries think? Wikipedia only includes information on what academics think. And these academics have to be third party and above all reliable. Including information that countries think otherwise is defamatory, and I strongly discourage you from doing so. Not to mention that officially none of the countries you state has the audacity of officially stating things contrary to academic consensus. Unless you have a source, of course. NikoSilver 22:59, 25 June 2007 (UTC)
There are many “academics” in Serbia and Macedonia that have come to the consensus that Tsar Samuil was a Macedonian. Ignoring that only makes the whole thing sound one-sided and a bit fundamentalist to not accept any theory other then the one of Bulgaria. Alexander the great1 23:13, 25 June 2007 (UTC)
What question? my first "bullet", if I understand what you mean.Alexander the great1 22:54, 25 June 2007 (UTC)
I was referring to the first bullet of the page WP:NPA which I linked. NikoSilver 22:59, 25 June 2007 (UTC)
I did not make any explicit racial/ethnic insult as it was not aimed at anyone, it was a general statement. Although there are many instances where Greece has acted very anti-Macedonian. You should read this
Yes there are instances, and I need not see your links. I also need not remind you that generalizing to all Greeks includes those present. And actually what you said is totally incoherent, because Neutron highlighted that the guy who kicked Samuil's ass went to history as Voulgaroktonos, literally "Boulgari-cide" in Greek. Not "Macedoni-cide", and certainly that would be really funny, since he himself was the distinguished member of the Macedonian dynasty of the Byzantine Empire (aka "Imperium Graecum")!! NikoSilver 23:18, 25 June 2007 (UTC)
So, claiming that the Greeks had an... Anti-Macedonian agenda back in 1004 AD, is simply amusing. NikoSilver 23:19, 25 June 2007 (UTC)
By the way, I'd appreciate if you could post links or works or the names of those academics you mentioned. I need them for my collection of propaganda (state-sponsored or simply for ill-perceived national "good"). NikoSilver 23:41, 25 June 2007 (UTC)
If you wanted links on propaganda, I already posted two above.Alexander the great1 23:53, 25 June 2007 (UTC)
Read me above admitting Greeks may have instances of expressing what you describe as "Anti-Macedonian sentiment". Now post here what I asked for, please. NikoSilver 00:51, 26 June 2007 (UTC)
If you are asking for links for your “collection of propaganda”, I am sorry but I cannot provide links to propaganda related to this topic as it is not propaganda. Alexander the great1 01:02, 26 June 2007 (UTC)
Post those that aren't propaganda in your view. You need to justify your claim of 23:13 that "There are many “academics” in Serbia and Macedonia that have come to the consensus that Tsar Samuil was a Macedonian." NikoSilver 01:15, 26 June 2007 (UTC)
Here is a link from the BBC a “western” source: Tsar Samuil created a strong Macedonian medieval kingdom with its center at Ohrid. Soon he conquered parts of Greece, a large part of Bulgaria, Albania, Serbia, Bosnia, Montenegro and Dalmatia.
Are we going to also link ethnic groups? I thought this is a page of political entities. Mr. Neutron 16:57, 17 July 2007 (UTC)
There is no rule that only political entities should be mentioned here. Other things important for Macedonian history could be here as well. Just compare Template:History of Bulgaria where you have link to article named National awakening of Bulgaria or Template:History of Serbia where you have link to article named First Serbian Uprising, etc, etc - these are not political entities, so why we should have here only political entities? PANONIAN 22:54, 18 July 2007 (UTC)
Ok, they are not political entities, but "Brsjaci" was neither uprising (aimed at creating of a political entity) neither a political entity. I've also removed the Ilinden-Preobrazhenie uprising, as there is no mention of "Macedonians" organizing or participating in it. Mr. Neutron 23:28, 18 July 2007 (UTC)
But this is ridiculous. Who else participated in Ilinden-Preobrazhenie uprising if not Macedonians? Also, there is no rule that only political entities or uprisings should be in this template (i.e. "only events aimed at creating of a political entity"), but all other important things related to country history could be here. Both, Brsjaci and Ilinden-Preobrazhenie uprising are very important for Macedonian history and since they are mentioned in the article named History of the Republic of Macedonia there is no reason why template cannot have these links as well. By the way, Ilinden-Preobrazhenie uprising did created Kruševo Republic, so I really do not understand why you deleted this. PANONIAN 11:50, 19 July 2007 (UTC)
To answer Panonian, in the Ilinden-Preobrazhenie uprising, in addition to Macedonians (population of the Bulgarian region of Macedonia), participated also Tracians from Southern Tracia (another Bulgarian region). Lantonov 13:39, 30 July 2007 (UTC)
Macedonians did not participate in the Uprising, see the main article, it was organized and executed by Bulgarians. As for ethnic groups, there is no evidence Brsjaci are related to the ethnic Macedonians, as they are in the Bulgarian slavic group. I dare you include Ancient Macedonians? Mr. Neutron 14:07, 19 July 2007 (UTC)
Dear Frightner keeps reverting the template (sigh). I desist. Left with opinion that Republic of Macedonia was created somewhere in 8th century BC, some weird remnant of the Greek city states (republics):). Lantonov 12:24, 3 August 2007 (UTC)
I excluded the word Vardar Banovina from the box.
It is a term used by Serbian occupation and it has an offensive connotation Revizionist 20:58, 13 August 2007 (UTC)
Now this template seems agreeable to all sides. I think it is good to be protected. Lantonov 05:32, 14 August 2007 (UTC)
The term Vardar Banovina is actually the title of one of the nine banovinas of the Kingdom of Yugoslavia which encompasses today's Republic of Macedonia, it's not just an occupations term. 124.168.101.42 11:23, 15 August 2007 (UTC)
I do not understand - what was occupied! BEFORE VARDAR BANOVINA THERE WAS THE BULGARIAN ARMY AND 500 YEARS BEFORE THEM - THE TURKS!Jingby 11:44, 15 August 2007 (UTC)
What are you on about? Provide some relevant information rather than talking gibberish. 203.59.65.185 11:49, 15 August 2007 (UTC)
The Vardar Banovina was a province (banovina) of the Kingdom of Yugoslavia between 1929 and 1941. It was located in the southernmost part of the country, encompassing the whole of today's Republic of Macedonia, southern parts of Central Serbia and southeastern parts of Kosovo. It is part from the history of Yugoslavia. Jingby 07:41, 19 August 2007 (UTC)
I ask the administartors to lock the template, because there is an anonimous user coming and rweverting it from time to time. Revizionist 10:09, 05 September 2007 (UTC)
Dude, history of the Republic of Macedonia. NOF took place in Greece. Unless you are mistaking the template for "History of the ethnic Macedonians", NOF should not be included. Or if it will make you happy, add NOF but leave Demographic history. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 203.166.241.11 (talk) 12:08, 5 September 2007 (UTC)
This is the history of the ETHNIC MACEDONIANS, which includes the Republic of Macedonia, geographic Macedonia and the diaspora therefore NOF should be on the template Maktruth (talk) 19:46, 4 May 2008 (UTC)
I have seen in several articles such as: England[]
Italy[]
Greece[]
Egypt[]
That they include their Ancient History in their history templates, even though their country did not exist at that time (Italy did not exist during Rome) (Modern Greece did not exist during the time of the Ancient city states). Therefore I only think it is fair to include Macedon in the template as it extended into the Republic threw Pelagonia. Philip also united Peonia into the empire when conquering them as he did in the south, this basically covered the whole modern Republic. Ireland101 (talk) 06:17, 24 November 2007 (UTC)
So you consider that Macedon is part of (FY)RoM history? I suggest you to read this Kapnisma? 07:56, 24 November 2007 (UTC)
Kapnisma please do not try to divert attention to unrelated information. The fact is that Pelagonia the northern part of Macedon is now in what you call "(FY)RoM". And Peonia which covers basically all of Macedonia was united by Philip. Face the facts and don't post political POV. Ireland101 (talk) 17:03, 24 November 2007 (UTC)
Political POV?
Find a reliable source that connects (FY)RoM with Macedon before editing. Also try to avoid pseudohistoryKapnisma? 17:21, 24 November 2007 (UTC)
I don't know about you Kapnisma but when I studied the history these sorts of arguments did not appear. Macedon was a large territory, in modern terms a large part of it is in Greece, and another part of it is in RoM. Have you heard of Heraclea Lyncestis? do you know were it is? it is not in Greece. Have you heard of Pelagonia? Part of it is in RoM and a lesser part in Greece. This was the northern part of Macedon. Did you know that Peonia was united by Philip, this territory covers all of RoM? Kapnisma please do a little more research about Macedonia before posting these sorts of comments. Ireland101 (talk) 17:30, 24 November 2007 (UTC)
Oh! You mean that Pelagonia? Which is over Macedon here and here?
Open again your history books and read more carefully before making meaningless edits
Kapnisma? 17:43, 24 November 2007 (UTC)
Your comment was entertaining but I don't have time to waste. Pelagonia was the Upper part of the Macedonian Kingdom, it is in the country Macedonia modern day homeland of the Macedonians, end of story. Ireland101 (talk) 21:07, 24 November 2007 (UTC)
The two are not the same. Macedonians come from the the whole Macedonian region, but this template is only on the RoM. Does that mean that MAcedonians only come from the RoM? NO! Part of our history is also on Macedon because many Macedonians come from northern Greece. So either fix the template or change it back to Republic of Macedonia template because its obviously about the country and not the actual people. 55lokheart (talk) 16:39, 15 March 2008 (UTC)
I think it was originally on the Republic of Macedonia (hence the title) but then it was changed to Macedonians. The page wasn't moved though. BalkanFever 07:35, 16 March 2008 (UTC)
ON the article History of the Macedonian people, in the ancient period section, it only gives the history of the Republic of Macedonia. But ethnic Macedonians come from northern greece as well. So why isn't the history of Macedon mentioned as well? Why is it only on Paeonia? Is this a article on the history of RoM or Macedonians? If it was on the history of RoM, then its ok to only mention PAeonia. But if its on ethnic Macedonians, we must also mention Macedon as well. 55lokheart (talk) 03:39, 19 March 2008 (UTC)
Again, if I may use Serbia as an example. There are two templates; Template:History of Serbia (Focuses on Serbia as a political state) and Template:Serbs (Focuses on Serbs ethnically, culturally, religiously etc. within, and outside of, Serbia). Perhaps we could have two templates as well? One for a chronology of the Republic of Macedonia as a political state and one focusing on just ethnic Macedonians regardless of location. Köbra85 03:50, 21 March 2008 (UTC)
Some people like the official coat of arms of the Republic of Macedonia (the sun and mountain and nature and whatnot) and some people like the unofficial coat of arms of the Macedonians (the lion). Which one should it be? BalkanFever 23:56, 20 March 2008 (UTC)
I like the coat of arms better, solely based on looks. I could settle for the lion if the quality was a tad better. I will try to upload a vector version of the unofficial coat of arms and we could use that if more people would like to use the lion over the official coat of arms. In the meantime I think the official coat of arms should stay. Köbra85 03:42, 21 March 2008 (UTC)
I prefer the official coat of arms of the Republic of Macedonia too. I would also like to add that this is not final - for example I would also like the old 1992 flag with the vergina star on red background (which is confirmed by both Macedonian and international experts to be the most used symbol of the ethnic Macedonians). But for the time being let the official coat of arms stay. Regards. --Revizionist (talk) 08:43, 25 March 2008 (UTC)
I've asked both 55lokheart and that IP user (both have been editing this template) to comment here. I also posted a note at WP:MKD for anyone else interested to join the discussion. BalkanFever 09:44, 25 March 2008 (UTC)
I made a suggestion earlier in one of the above posts; to have two templates because, really, statehood should be its own template. Unless some of our other Wikipedians object, I think this is a good way to go. Köbra85 10:22, 25 March 2008 (UTC)
I can't believe I missed that. I agree. That would make it a lot easier. BalkanFever 10:29, 25 March 2008 (UTC)
I'm not sure how valid my opinion might be, but I find the current state better. The lion is (and was) one of the most exploited symbols, so the current one looks more unique so to speak. For the other suggestion, I don't know what would make it for the template, but few of the topics will be uncontroversial (you know what I mean:)--LaveolT 18:48, 25 March 2008 (UTC)
Well officially the Coat of Arms would be used, but most people identify with the staar of vergina or the lion so one of these two would be appropriate. But it would be near impossible to post the star of vergina up, so i suggest an intricate version of the lion would be appropriate (as opposed to the version on ethnic macedonians which is very simple). I think the lion is more readily identified with than the coat of arms. PMK1 (talk) 11:34, 13 April 2008 (UTC)
The coat of arms should be the yellow Lion with a red background, since that is the coat of arms that has historically represented Macedonia and represents the Macedonian ETHNICITY, while the official coat of arms simply represents the Republic of Macedonia and ALL its people. Maktruth (talk) 19:49, 4 May 2008 (UTC)
The Sun of the ancient Macedonians is a recent discovery and a recent use by both Macedonians and Greeks, but the yellow Lion with Red background has historically represented the people of Macedonia, but should not be confused with the red Lion with yellow background, which represents the people of Bulgaria. Maktruth (talk) 19:50, 4 May 2008 (UTC)
Would someone be able to change the template so that the link for Macedonians in Albania no longer goes to the Albanian Section on the Macedonian Page. There is now a NEW page for that. Macedonians in Albania. If someone could get onto that it would be appreciated. PMK1 (talk) 07:52, 2 April 2008 (UTC)
Eve go naprav. BalkanFever 07:59, 2 April 2008 (UTC)
Is it possible to add a section for the Macedonian Language and its dialects eg. Strumica/Pirin?, Ohrid/Struga like is present in many other 'nation' templates.??? User:PMK1|PMK1]] (talk) 06:22, 4 April 2008 (UTC)
Strumica what???--LaveolT 01:07, 5 April 2008 (UTC)
could someone please change the template for macedonians in bulgaria to redirect here Macedonians in Bulgaria as opposed to the general macedonians page. thanx User:PMK1|PMK1]] (talk)01:21, 8 April 2008 (UTC)
Already changed. Regards. --Revizionist (talk) 11:54, 14 April 2008 (UTC)
The coat of arms should be the yellow Lion with a red background, since that is the coat of arms that has historically represented Macedonia and represents the Macedonian ETHNICITY, while the official coat of arms simply represents the Republic of Macedonia and ALL its people.Maktruth (talk) 19:56, 4 May 2008 (UTC)
The Sun of the ancient Macedonians is a recent discovery and a recent use by both Macedonians and Greeks, but the yellow Lion with Red background has historically represented the people of Macedonia, but should not be confused with the red Lion with yellow background, which represents the people of Bulgaria Maktruth (talk) 19:57, 4 May 2008 (UTC)
The only reason the unofficial coat of arms is not used by the Republic of Macedonia is because Bulgarian pressure not too, but the ethnic Macedonians relate far more with the lion then the ROM coat of arms, and since this article is about ETHNIC MACEDONIANS and not ROM, the lion should be used. Maktruth (talk) 19:57, 4 May 2008 (UTC)
Please discuss the issue if you are going to change the coa. Maktruth (talk) 20:05, 4 May 2008 (UTC)
Hmmm, I imagine you wanted to say that Bulgarians pressure you not to use the lion? Could you tell me when and why - this sounds more than ridiculous. --LaveolT 20:45, 4 May 2008 (UTC)
Me? no, they don't pressure ME, or any ethnic Macedonian not to use it. I said Bulgarian government pressured Macedonian government not to use it since it resembles the Bulgarian coat of arms, which historically was a red lion with a yellow background, but recently changed to a yellow lion with a red background. Also, the amount of tails differ (please view the Scottish coat of arms also). Maktruth (talk) 20:54, 4 May 2008 (UTC)
What I meant was that nobody has pressured you (people from RoM) not to use the emblem --LaveolT 23:46, 4 May 2008 (UTC)
I'm not sure what you mean, or which emblem your talking about. If you mean the lion coat of arms, then you are right: political organizations in Macedonia use the lion and I don't know if you've noticed, but most ethnic Macedonians use it also. Maktruth (talk) 05:59, 5 May 2008 (UTC)
People, let's use the lion on this one, the state template uses the official coat of arms, hence the landscape and the socialist star. This is in no way a representation of ethnic Macedonians today (2008). KöbraKönverse 08:41, 5 May 2008 (UTC)
Exactly, Ethnic Macedonians IDENTIFY with the yellow LION with red SHIELD and do not identify with the Socialist-official coat of arms, but non-ethnic Macedonians believe they can choose for us (something that is not new) Mactruth (talk) 22:27, 5 May 2008 (UTC)
Why don't you just vote it? I mean is it that hard. As I see there are three images that can be put there: the current flag of the Republic, the lion and the coat of arms. So why don't you just make a vote like this
coat of arms - that means that I vote for the coat of arms (and I do actually). Revizionist proposed this in an edit-summary so why not just do it. It doesn't seem that hard, does it? --LaveolT 22:32, 5 May 2008 (UTC)
The problem is you are not ethnic Macedonian therefore you have no say in what we want to represent us on Wikipedia, it is not like the ethnic Macedonians are casting a vote that Greek Macedonians cannot use the Macedonian Sun. Mactruth (talk) 23:55, 5 May 2008 (UTC)
Obviously, our friendly neighbors believe self-determination includes the influence and approval of neighbors. Look, I wish there could be a vote, but the vote should only be between ethnic Macedonians, and there's no way to regulate whether a person is ethnic Macedonian on Wikipedia (I have faced many Greek imposters on other websites). Mactruth (talk) 00:01, 6 May 2008 (UTC)
Sorry, this is wikipedia. All peoples' perspectives count. Toddst1 (talk) 00:04, 6 May 2008 (UTC)
Toddst1, I get that this is Wikipedia, the problem is the exception to whether or not all people's perspectives count applies only to Macedonians when it comes to Balkan issues. The problem is when a peoples self-determinate to a name, a symbol, or etc other people should not influence or force their decision upon them because that nullifies self-determination. Mactruth (talk) 00:20, 6 May 2008 (UTC)
??? Are you saying Wikipedia should follow your rules only? No, this is not how it goes: we're not trying to add something offensive to Ethnic Macedonians or some controversial information, we simply want to determine the symbol in a constructive way. We have this right, too, you know, especially since we're not doing anything wrong. I have an opinion on the issue and my opinion is valid since I have my valid arguments. If you don't like it, we miight skip the vote and let you battle on this till next year (or until you get blocked), ok? --LaveolT 00:45, 6 May 2008 (UTC)
Hmmm... what are your valid arguments? The only arguments are coming from non-ethnic Macedonians Mactruth (talk) 02:01, 6 May 2008 (UTC)
OK everybody shut the hell up. Please. This is getting so stupid. I am creating two subsections: 1) the Nature etc (official) and 2) the lion (unofficial). I am not including the Vergina Sun, which some may argue also represents the Macedonians (ethnic), because it will actually cause more revert warring than we have now (hard to believe, I know). I ask that nobody touch the image any more (leave it with the lion), regardless of the previous "consensus", because obviously nobody here understands what this means, and it wasn't much of a consensus anyway. Place four tildes (i.e. sign your name) under the one you prefer. All discussion goes in the "discussion" subsection, not in the voting subsections. Note that voting alone may not dictate consensus, but there really is no other option right now. BalkanFever 11:36, 6 May 2008 (UTC)
Lion
(Image:Mac coat arms unoff.gif)
It is ridiculous that non-ethnic Macedonians are nullifying the self-determination for ethnic Macedonians to choose their own symbol to represent themselves (and I will forever complain). I vote for the Lion or Macedonian Sun. Mactruth (talk) 21:14, 6 May 2008 (UTC)
Sorry I must be missing something. What "nature" do you mean, what exactly is this a proposal for? Fut.Perf.☼ 19:04, 6 May 2008 (UTC)
He means the current official coat of arms. ·ΚΕΚΡΩΨ· (talk) 19:24, 6 May 2008 (UTC)
This is the coat of arms from the Communist era: a sun, river, mountain and 5-pointed star. Mactruth (talk) 21:15, 6 May 2008 (UTC)
Discussion
OK, when I created this template, i also had this dilemma. And I repat it now - ether we include the official coat of arms, either we include our version of the Vergina Sun (red backgroud). Because 100% of the Macedonians use the Vergina Sun with the red background. The Macedonians in Republic of Macedonia, the Macedonian minorities in the neighboring countries use it also, the emigration uses it. If you ask me, it will be most appropriate to use the old flag on the template, because according to all sources this is the most used symbol, and the symbol that 100% of the Macedonians affiliate to. The second option is to use the official coat of arms of the republic of Macedonia. I am against the use of the lion, for not all Macedonians identify with it. --Revizionist (talk) 12:43, 6 May 2008 (UTC)
No Vergina Sun requests please - none of us have time to stop the tag-team reverting that will come from it. BalkanFever 12:49, 6 May 2008 (UTC)
I double BF, there's no way we can get a stable version with it. --LaveolT 13:25, 6 May 2008 (UTC)
Excuse me, but the old flag is now the flag of Macedonians as an ethnic group, therefore... wtf? KöbraKönverse 14:02, 6 May 2008 (UTC)
Yeah, I agree with Kobra on this one. All sources say that it is the most used symbol by the Macedonians both in Republic of Macedonia and in the diaspora. --Revizionist (talk) 15:06, 6 May 2008 (UTC)
I would prefer no symbol at all. Not just here, but in other articles/templates, for all sorts of flags. Flags are over-used in Wikipedia. What Wikipedia ought to be doing is simply treat flags as an object of encyclopedic discourse: Entity X uses flag Y. Neutral statement of fact. Instead, what we do all too often is to employ flags as a symbol ourselves. Using them, not talking about them. That's bad, because it may be understood as endorsement of some ideological position associated with the flag. With state flags this is not normally much of a problem, because using a state flag implies little more than that the state exists (but see cases like Kosovo or Northern Cyprus for problems that do occur). But with entities as fleeting as ethnic groups, using flags to symbolise them is really not necessary at all, and only carries extra POV baggage with it. Fut.Perf.☼ 18:39, 6 May 2008 (UTC)
Revizionist is right, all Macedonians (ethnic) use the Macedonian sun as their symbol. Macedonians in Serbia, Macedonians in Bulgaria, Macedonians in Albania and Macedonians in the Republic of Macedonia. In all honesty, I thought it could only be a coat of arms, that's why I opted for the Lion coat of arms rather the Communist coat of arms. We should open an option for the ancient Macedonians sun though, though I feel it is a recent symbol (just like the Greek Macedonians). Mactruth (talk) 21:11, 6 May 2008 (UTC)
There is no way the Sun of Vergina will be part of this template. Forget it. ·ΚΕΚΡΩΨ· (talk) 18:31, 8 May 2008 (UTC)
Kekrops, whatever will be decided here (and as I said I'm myself far from convinced the Vergina sun is the best option), the offendedness by the Greeks will not play the slightest role in it. Forget those forgetits of yours. Try edit warring against its inclusion and I promise you will be topic-banned faster than you can say Makedonia xakousti. Fut.Perf.☼ 23:21, 8 May 2008 (UTC)
Ok,first of all,the national simbol of all Macedonians(ethnic) is sun of Kutleš(Vergina),and it is used in every single Macedonian(ethnic) organisation!!!
This site is about Macedonians(ethnic),and not about republic of Macedonia!!!!
And if you don't trust me see here:
1-Matica na iselenici(Hause of immigrants)/http://www.maticanaiselenici.com/en/?PHPSESSID=095fccd6bd2d0bd9cfe719ab8f6d2632
2-Makedonski svetski kongres(World Macedonian congress)/http://www.smk.org.mk/index.asp?vlang=eng
The national simbol of all Macedonians(ethnic)is:
Golden Kutlesh(Vergina) sun on red platform!!!
That is the only simbol of all Macedonian nation!!!!
I can give you all serius Macedonian oragnisations which works in the name of Macedonians(ethnic),or we shoud ask administartor of this site who is wrong!!
I repet,we do not talk about Macedonian state,or something else!The word is about ethnic Macedonians,and their simbol is KUTLESH SUN on red bacground!!!
If somebody blocks me i will contakt administrator!!!
In case you haven't notice there is a vote organized to decide the issue. You're not the only editor on Wikipedia, you know. You've broken the 3RR rule on this article and might as well get a block. The answer is consensus, not persistent edit-wars. --LaveolT 21:18, 8 May 2008 (UTC)
Ok,first of all,the national simbol of all Macedonians(ethnic) is sun of Kutleš(Vergina),and it is used in every single Macedonian(ethnic) organisation!!!
This site is about Macedonians(ethnic),and not about republic of Macedonia!!!!
And if you don't trust me see here:
1-Matica na iselenici(Hause of immigrants)/http://www.maticanaiselenici.com/en/?PHPSESSID=095fccd6bd2d0bd9cfe719ab8f6d2632
2-Makedonski svetski kongres(World Macedonian congress)/http://www.smk.org.mk/index.asp?vlang=eng
The national simbol of all Macedonians(ethnic)is:
Golden Kutlesh(Vergina) sun on red platform!!!
Why don't you read the whole discussion from above? --LaveolT 20:33, 8 May 2008 (UTC)
Ok, here are the options - whichever of them you happen to like best, just sign bellow it with a # in front of your signature. Everybody are allowed to vote. Wikipedia is not a democracy, but it still needs to build consensus. I have not added the old flag - there is a reason for it not being the current flag and I think it's best to avoid conflicts of such magnitude as the one that would happen (and is actually happening) if the Vergina Sun was to be added to the template. --LaveolT 23:32, 8 May 2008 (UTC)
Sorry Laveol, but I've added two other options, the Vergina one and "no flag at all". Those are two options that were seriously discussed here, and one of them obviously has a lot of backing among editors. You can't have a valid straw poll if you exclude legitimate options from the outset. I would also insist that all !votes be based on Wikipedia policy and precedent. "People are offended by X" is simply not a valid argument here, and all votes based on such reasoning alone should be discounted. Fut.Perf.☼ 05:39, 9 May 2008 (UTC)
Gee, like we don't know what option will be chosen now that the "KUTLESH FLAG NATIONAL SIMBOL OF MACEDONIANS" is up for grabs.;) Of course a vote for "no flag" from any Greek editors for any reasons will be perceived as more evil Greek oppression. 3rdAlcove (talk) 06:26, 9 May 2008 (UTC)
So? To paraphrase FP, we shouldn't give a fat rat's what others think. ·ΚΕΚΡΩΨ· (talk) 12:38, 9 May 2008 (UTC)
By the way should the results of the canvassing by user Makedonij be taken into account? See his contribs --LaveolT 19:47, 9 May 2008 (UTC)
My bigger concern is how are we going to treat those !votes that are merely along predictable national(ist) frontlines? I'd dearly love to see some outside eyes on this. If I were the admin to close this, I'd probably disregard all Macedonian and Greek opinions automatically. Fut.Perf.☼ 20:01, 9 May 2008 (UTC)
I'd honestly say that would be fair given the circumstances. I don't think my vote (as a Bulgarian) can be taken into real account as well given some other well known circumstances. --LaveolT 20:05, 9 May 2008 (UTC)
And it is more than obvious there has also been off-wiki canvassing here. --Avg 01:02, 10 May 2008 (UTC)
This is better than Eurovision. "Real vote", indeed.;) So, I guess the lion is a Bulgarian symbol with its colours reversed? 3rdAlcove (talk) 09:10, 10 May 2008 (UTC)
It's really a matter of judgement. Will we let a people decide what symbol they want to represent themselves?, or are we going to let others decide? Its not that hard Vergina Sun+Red= Macedonians, Vergina Sun+Blue=Greek Macedonians, i dont see the controversy? People have the right to determine their own national symbols etc. User:PMK1|PMK1]] (talk) 12:05, 10 May 2008 (UTC)
You're missing the fact that this is an encyclopedia and not some paper or prop tool. --LaveolT 12:08, 10 May 2008 (UTC)
And anyway Vergina sun is a Greek symbol, which has been copyrighted. So this discussion is a joke. However it's still fun to see these guys rally for their "cause".--Avg 13:08, 10 May 2008 (UTC)
If my memory serves me correctly, the flag of Greek Macedonia came after the initial flag of the Republic of Macedonia. KöbraKönverse 13:20, 10 May 2008 (UTC)
Your memory serves you wrong by 15 years. Sorry.--Avg 13:22, 10 May 2008 (UTC)
In response to Future's comment under "No flag"... see: Roma flag. KöbraKönverse 13:24, 10 May 2008 (UTC)
You have a country don't you? Roma people don't.--Avg 13:27, 10 May 2008 (UTC)
Who said anything about that? Having a country doesn't mean you can't have an ethnic flag. Have you seen the ethnic flag of Serbs (Template:Serbs)? Tell me, is it the same as the state flag (Flag of Serbia)? Also, tell me that your previous answer was not a serious one. Even the external link provided on Flag of Greek Macedonia states the flag of Greek Macedonia was created to "annoy Macedonians" by inverting the colours. KöbraKönverse 13:31, 10 May 2008 (UTC)
Well thanks for pointing out. If there's such a link I'll go and remove it now. This is beyond ridiculous. Since 1977 when Andronikos made his discovery, the Vergina Star on a blue background has been used as the symbol of Macedonians.--Avg 13:36, 10 May 2008 (UTC)
Ofcourse you'll remove it. Such evidence must not exist. KöbraKönverse 13:40, 10 May 2008 (UTC)
I just went to the page and there is no such reference or link. Care to enlighten us?--Avg 13:42, 10 May 2008 (UTC)
The Flags of the World external link, it actually quotes what some guy said back in '96. KöbraKönverse 14:00, 10 May 2008 (UTC)
You mean at the part where it quotes the Slavomacedonian POV?:-)--Avg
If I were you, I wouldn't say that word again... Just try it... KöbraKönverse 05:51, 11 May 2008 (UTC)
Because what? It...offends you? Listen, I use this word as a compromise, because what I really use outside Wikipedia is Skopjan. Since you seem to not like Slavomacedonian, Skopjan it will be, thanks for the suggestion.--Avg 10:57, 11 May 2008 (UTC)
(un)Actually, PMK1, I didn't say anything to the contrary; simply that we already know the result of the 'poll'. What about the lion coat of arms, anyway? Did you guys rip it off and reverse its colours or what? 3rdAlcove (talk) 14:03, 10 May 2008 (UTC)
I dont understand what you are trying to say?- 3rd Alcove. Also I wouldnt object to the (Vergina Star + Blue) bieng used for the greek macedonians, wikipedia has to be nuetral but when only one group objects it is questionable for their objection to granted.PMK1 (talk) 05:04, 11 May 2008 (UTC)
Obviously you don't understand since you wouldn't repeat yourself if you actually did. 3rdAlcove (talk) 13:05, 11 May 2008 (UTC)
I must be really stupid because i still cant understand what you are saying. And what is your objection to the lion??PMK1 (talk) 22:30, 11 May 2008 (UTC)
I don't understand what's wrong with using the national flag, as per the other ethnic group templates. It's not as if they are a people without a state, like, say, the Kurds, where a legitimate debate might be had. ·ΚΕΚΡΩΨ· (talk) 12:23, 9 May 2008 (UTC)
Second choice (if you have to have a symbol). --Avg 17:50, 9 May 2008 (UTC)
If there's to be a symbol, then that symbol has to be the one the whole ethnic group has chosen through its democratically elected leadership (a choice made weighing all the pros and cons, including ...extortion by the evil Greeks, and a choice that represents all members -not just the rampant nationalist ones-). My second choice, close call. NikoSilver 12:58, 12 May 2008 (UTC)
Vergina flag
My choise. The flag of Macedonians is Kutleš star. State flag is the current flag of the country. Kutleš is flag of macedonians, and the others non macedonian in Macedonia have also flags. Turks have, serbs, etc. And the flags are not same with the national flags.--Raso mk (talk) 07:42, 9 May 2008 (UTC)
I vote for Sun of Kutlesh,and i allready told that this is a simbol of all ethnic Macedonians,and if you want to show the world oposit you will allways find someone who will tempelate sun again and again!!! Makedonij 10:42, 9 May 2008 (UTC)
My first choice is old flag with the star on red background which is confirmed by foreign sources as the most used symbol of identification among the ethnic Macedonian population both in Republic of Macedonia, the minorities in the neighboring countries and the diaspora. --Revizionist (talk) 10:30, 9 May 2008 (UTC)
I vote for this flag for the same reasons stated above. KöbraKönverse 13:44, 9 May 2008 (UTC)
One big vote for the Star of Kutleš. This is our only symbol, we do not have another. Regards --MacedonianBoy (talk) 18:50, 9 May 2008 (UTC)
I vote for this flag for the same reasons as everyone else. --Justmakingonearcticle 19:44, 9 May 2008 (UTC)
Someone deleted my past post. Anyway, this is retarded that a poll is being considered especially since some Greek uses may have more then one screenname. Anyways, I vote for this flag also. Mactruth (talk) 20:11, 9 May 2008 (UTC)
Number one choice, because it is the rallying symbol for all ethnic macedonians, many people do not recognise the current flag, and even in macedonia it is not always used.Most emigrant communities dont use the current flag at all.PMK1 (talk) 07:45, 10 May 2008 (UTC)
My first choice. Most of the people considering themselves ethnic Macedonians, consider this flag a symbol of their ethnicity. So do I. --Filipgd (talk) 13:28, 13 May 2008 (UTC) — Filipgd (talk • contribs) has made few or no other edits outside this topic.
my first choice. The eight-rayed flag is the flag of the country. this is the flag of all ethnic Macedonians, everywhere in the world. but i think it is better to use only the vergina star, not the old flag.Ancient Brain (talk) 22:31, 14 May 2008 (UTC)
11. I prefer the vergina sun too. Polibiush (talk) 22:56, 14 May 2008 (UTC)
No flag/CoA at all
My first choice. States have flags. Ethnic groups don't. Fut.Perf.☼ 05:57, 9 May 2008 (UTC)
Well, since I don't think the Vergina Sun is a sensible option, I'd prefer there to be no symbol. (No symbol - no controversy). --LaveolT 07:54, 9 May 2008 (UTC)
But if people feel that the national flag is unrepresentative for whatever reason, having no flag or symbol at all is the only obvious (uncontroversial) solution. ·ΚΕΚΡΩΨ· (talk) 12:24, 9 May 2008 (UTC)
First choice as per Fut.Perf. --Avg 17:50, 9 May 2008 (UTC)
Same as above. --Tsourkpk (talk) 23:06, 11 May 2008 (UTC)
"Ethnic group" ≠ "State", therefore no flag at all seems most reasonable. First Choice. NikoSilver 12:54, 12 May 2008 (UTC)
There is no desperate need to have any flags on ethnic groups template.--Staberinde (talk) 13:16, 15 May 2008 (UTC)
You've managed to turn this whole vote into a big joke. I hope you enjoy it. We had canvassing, and now we have even newly registered users coming here only to vote. Great show (I wonder how he knew about this). --LaveolT 19:42, 13 May 2008 (UTC)
Strong possibility that Filipgd may be a sock. --Tsourkpk (talk) 19:56, 13 May 2008 (UTC)
Nope, no sock. There is such a user on MKwiki. I do believe, though, that some of the current users are in fact socks of previously blocked ones (including Frightner of whom we all well know). --LaveolT 22:30, 13 May 2008 (UTC)
Then it seems likely that there is some off-wiki canvassing. Too many coincidences. --Tsourkpk (talk) 22:39, 13 May 2008 (UTC)
The on and off-wiki canvasing is beyond all doubt. No coincidences. I think they view it as a question of national pride. Btw Fut.Perf. are we allowed to do some canvassing ourselves? I mean, they did it, why can't we?--LaveolT 22:47, 13 May 2008 (UTC)
An exercise in futility, most likely. The only honest way to solve the whole matter would be: a) users who are against ethnic Macedonians using the flag, because of a particular POV, (since no one can forbid them from using it, on wiki, at least; if Future is right, that is) giving up or b) ethnic Macedonians showing good will and coming to a compromise of sorts ("ok let's mention that the Vergina sun is still an important symbol for Macedonians, show it even, but let's not flaunt it in various templates"). Or getting completely uninvolved people to decide, though those would be hard to find; I doubt that many non-involved people give a flying fork. Of course, either result will disappoint the "Other" side but will be as NPOV -that is, expressing "outsider POVs"- as possible (one can hope;). 3rdAlcove (talk) 23:15, 13 May 2008 (UTC)
Seems like you had too much faith in it, Laveol! It's not half bad for a sockpuppet show. A shadow play would be much better, though. Alexander slaying the "accursed snake", perhaps. jaay kaay 3rdAlcove (talk) 20:01, 13 May 2008 (UTC)
Τι λιες, ρε ανιψούδ'? Καλτσουθέατρου? Α μπα, τέτοιο πράμα δε γίνιτι. Αμα σκώσ'ν τς κάλτσις, δε θα τς πλακώσμι στου ξύλ'? -- Fut.Perf.☼ 20:47, 13 May 2008 (UTC)
Κοίτα μη καταλήξεις σαν το Νιόνιο. Πλακίτσα! Με εντυπωσιάζεις. Μια μέρα να μας πεις τι σχέση έχεις με το Ελλαδιστάν;)
Btw, as an asides, if this doesn't fall under the whole WIPO intellectual property etc. (have no idea; that's why I'm asking dumb questions), on what grounds would one be able to forbid ethnic Macedonians from using the "old flag" in the template? Besides creating bad blood and the like, that is. Hypothetical question, if you feel like answering... 3rdAlcove (talk) 20:23, 13 May 2008 (UTC)
The whole WIPO thing is irrelevant here. It's just about use as trade marks, not about any other use by private individuals or organisations; plus it logically cannot affect any usage going back to the time prior to registration. If the WIPO registration gave a legal handle to the Greek state to stop ethnic Macedonian organisations from using it, we'd have seen the Greek state win a few court cases by now, don't you think? For us at Wikipedia, this is definitely not an issue at all. Fut.Perf.☼ 20:47, 13 May 2008 (UTC)
Just to get this right, FYROM itself has committed to the UN not to use the Vergina Sun in any official way, but this is not an issue for Wikipedia?--Avg 21:53, 13 May 2008 (UTC)
Two different issues, one legal, one political. The Interim Accord binds the state, but not its citizens and private organisations. The WIPO thing binds almost nobody. Neither affects our use in this template. We report. That the Vergina Sun is still being used by many ethnic Macedonians is a fact. Fut.Perf.☼ 22:24, 13 May 2008 (UTC)
Yes, no idea about 'cases'. That's why I was asking. Any info, Avg? (just interested, nothing much to do with this case. I swear dammit) 3rdAlcove (talk) 21:59, 13 May 2008 (UTC)
I wouldn't think Greece as a state would sue individuals, since they have achieved their goal to ban Vergina Sun usage by the Republic.--Avg 22:50, 13 May 2008 (UTC)
How about this compromise! to stop the whole bickering. Create a list of every single ethnic macedonian organization/groups based on the image they use represent themsleves. eg, Current Flag, Star of Vergina, Lion, Combinition, Coat of Arms, Other. Which ever flag is used by more organizations will be the winner. Is that not democratic???PMK1 (talk) 04:22, 14 May 2008 (UTC)
Kocovski, I knew this would happen. Non-Macedonians trying to pick what Macedonians want has been occurring for a while now, and that simply destroys self-determination. Since Macedonians have chosen the Macedonian Sun and outnumber the other choices, non-Macedonians are now using the ridiculous argument that new-users are the cause. Even though I said the vote is ridiculous and Macedonians should pick for themselves, my voice was ignored. I believe your solution works Kocovski!!! The problem is if the Greeks see the results are not what they wanted, then they will make some silly excuse up (as usual). Mactruth (talk) 05:19, 14 May 2008 (UTC)
Alright, everything was transparent and democratic. Now we may proceed in putting the symbol that received the most votes (a symbol that is most used by the ethnic Macedonians all over the world) on the template. Regards. --Revizionist (talk) 10:59, 14 May 2008 (UTC)
Your words are my command.--Makedonij (talk) 13:19, 14 May 2008 (UTC)
Makedonij, I thought that we should wait for Futur to put the symbol, but anyways, I will inform him, and ask him for the final approval. --Revizionist (talk) 13:48, 14 May 2008 (UTC)
Uhm, guys, this is really not for me to decide. I voted myself in this, don't you remember? I'm not sure that the result of this poll can serve as a binding resolution either way, to tell you the truth. I mean, you could try and find some trustworthy, completely uninvolved person willing to have a look at make a call whether this constitutes "consensus" either way. It's a pretty hard one though, if one wants to weigh more than just brute force of numbers. Fut.Perf.☼ 14:13, 14 May 2008 (UTC)
Can I decide since I didn't vote?;) 3rdAlcove (talk) 14:40, 14 May 2008 (UTC)
Thank you Future for your prompt and sincere answer. Ok, let us recapitulate - According to the vote (in which you too participated), we included the star on a red background in the template (this is also backed by the fact that this is the most used symbol by ethnic Macedonians all over the world). Regards. --Revizionist (talk) 14:23, 14 May 2008 (UTC)
Yes i think the same.this is not to offence someone.Greek Macedonians use the blue one,we use this one,anyway tht simbol was found in OHRID too,and it was used 25 years befoure ANDRONIKIS found it. http://vbb.blog.com.mk/node/150317/print --Makedonij (talk) 18:39, 14 May 2008 (UTC)
Now that you had your fun, simply forget about including Vergina Sun in the template. Okay? Enough is enough.--Avg 18:45, 14 May 2008 (UTC)
And why not???Leave your negative energy elswere! Makedonij (talk) 18:48, 14 May 2008 (UTC)
This is pure THEFT. I do not condone theft and will not let it in Wikipedia. Go have your nationalistic wet dreams elsewhere.--Avg 18:53, 14 May 2008 (UTC)
No it's not,and you was a part of consensus!!That is not Greek Vergina star,that is Ethnic Macedonian Sun of Kutlesh,or Sun of Ohrid.Makedonij (talk) 18:56, 14 May 2008 (UTC)
Yeah whatever... you yourself canvassed votes and obvious socks voted in this comedy. As for the Vergina Star, really, let it go man, this is an encyclopaedia, you don't have any luck POV pushing.--Avg 19:04, 14 May 2008 (UTC)
No it's not,and you was a part of consensus!!That is not Greek Vergina star,that is Ethnic Macedonian Sun of Kutlesh,or Sun of Ohrid,or Sun of all Macedonians,either they speak GREEK or Macedonian,they both use sun.And Macedonian one is shaining above every single Ethnic Macedonian.That is a fact,and if this is to be neutral,the Kutlesh sun is the simbol of all Macedonians.--Makedonij (talk) 19:07, 14 May 2008 (UTC)
Except Slavomacedonian editors and their socks, is there ONE uninvolved third party who voted for the Vergina Sun? No. Apart from that, who declared the vote finished and who declared there is consensus? Are you an admin?--Avg 19:12, 14 May 2008 (UTC)
Actually, the Vergina Sun is indeed the symbol of all Macedonians, not just 'ethnic' ones. 3rdAlcove (talk) 19:44, 14 May 2008 (UTC)
Stop offending or I will start with offendings! Your talking is not civilized at all! --MacedonianBoy (talk) 19:23, 14 May 2008 (UTC)
Sure, you guys are pushing a highly offensive template to Greeks in Wikipedia and you're accusing others? And by the way, where did I offend you? --Avg 19:27, 14 May 2008 (UTC)
And on the other side of the voting process were only Greeks! Equall process--MacedonianBoy (talk) 19:25, 14 May 2008 (UTC)
Sorry on the other side there is at least one German and one Bulgarian.--Avg 19:27, 14 May 2008 (UTC)
And Greek users did not canvass and organize CAMERA-style off-wiki. --Tsourkpk (talk) 19:28, 14 May 2008 (UTC)
It is not the problem in organizing! We, the Macedonians, when we are in danger we unite our selves in one and fight for our rights. that is why we are here today from the alexander the Great`s period till today. --MacedonianBoy (talk) 19:31, 14 May 2008 (UTC)
That's the spirit! Continue this way, and your POV pushing will be exposed in an instant.--Avg 19:32, 14 May 2008 (UTC)
Only that POV is in your mind! You cannot accept the reality! I cannot help here anymore, it is your own problem! Cheers--MacedonianBoy (talk) 19:33, 14 May 2008 (UTC)
Actually, "uniting" in this case is more along the lines of "dishonest ganging-up". Let's not comment on "we are here today from the alexander the Great`s period till today" and instead focus on the fact that most of Macedonia is outside the Republic.;) 3rdAlcove (talk) 19:43, 14 May 2008 (UTC)
But that's the best part. They're so blinded, they can't understand they're digging their own hole when they admit they gang up and that they try to push the POV that they're descendants of Alexander.--Avg 19:45, 14 May 2008 (UTC)
Why? I don't think anyone on wiki gives a toss about their fantasies (as long as they don't insert them into articles; which they do at times but they get tossed out;)). The same applies to us, of course. The thing is that we can't forbid them from using it (especially if the whole copyright thingie is as Future said). Only good will on either side's part would solve it tbh. I doubt this has much to do with the Vergina sun being "our (ie ethnic M.) symbol" and more with "we want to FLAUNT it since we are DESCENDANTS". Perhaps it's better if we show good will and let them fl...use it. (much as it pains this Macedonian to admit it;) 3rdAlcove (talk) 19:53, 14 May 2008 (UTC)
I'm all for NOBODY using this symbol. It's an ancient Macedonian symbol. Leave it at peace. And of course if anybody is to use it today, then definitely it will not be some people totally unrelated to the ancient Macedonians. I don't see Greeks flaunting it by the way, it's only one side, which speaks volumes. Did you see a template "Macedonian Greeks" with the Vergina Star on it?--Avg 19:59, 14 May 2008 (UTC)
Yes, I was talking about the other side, mostly;) (though I'm not sure if we wouldn't, were we in their place). The best way would be for both symbols to be used only in Macedonia (Greece) and Macedonians (ethnic group) under 'symbols'. As for the 'unrelated' thing, while irrelevant (imo, despite what either side says; "you ARE" "we AREN'T"), everyone in the adjacent area can be considered a "descendant of ancient Macedonians" if a certain people with no links at all can, of course. But I honestly don't care much about its use; silly polls with plenty of off-wiki cooperating and lack of good will (the last from both sides; sorry) are much worse. 3rdAlcove (talk) 20:09, 14 May 2008 (UTC)
Just for notification all round, I've brought this whole situation over to WP:AE. Expect some blocks soon. Please everybody show some sign of reason and refrain from turning the AE page into a flamefest too. Fut.Perf.☼ 21:39, 14 May 2008 (UTC)
Leaving any blocks aside, what will happen with the template? That's what concerns me. Let's say everybody is blocked and the star remains, then what? Will you finally act on the obvious sockpuppeting, SPAs and canvassing? --Avg 22:15, 14 May 2008 (UTC)
The Macedonian Star of Kutleš is quite different from that of Greece so it can be used. It is not Greek symbol at all.--MacedonianBoy (talk) 22:19, 14 May 2008 (UTC)
I'm not familiar with the differences, would you mind explaining why they're different? And in which country is "Kutlesh" anyway?--Avg 22:34, 14 May 2008 (UTC)
Wow a lot of fighting here... For those of you who don't know, Kutlesh was the name of the village before the Greek-Asian settlers came and renamed it to Vergina. The name also appears on old Greek maps as "Koutles". Polibiush (talk) 22:54, 14 May 2008 (UTC)
So is it in Greece or not? Are you claiming as yours a symbol that yourselves name after a city in Greece?--Avg 22:58, 14 May 2008 (UTC)
If anything, that makes the whole "Greeks stole it from us" line of thought a bit dubious. Unless it was used before Andronikos' discovery, that is.;) 3rdAlcove (talk) 23:56, 14 May 2008 (UTC)
http://vbb.blog.com.mk/node/150317/print read this link,good informations about this discussion.Any way let Ethnic Macedonians use red one,and Greek Macedonians the blue one.Big deal,we are just hating ich other becouse simbol????HM....----Makedonij (talk) 05:24, 15 May 2008 (UTC)
Cmon man, "the Greeks ripped off the East India Company flag" is serious discussion? It gets even worse from there. I don't believe I voted either; I simply commented on the absurdity of THAT line of thought. (I've seen the East India Company joke from Greeks as well so;) 3rdAlcove (talk) 11:30, 15 May 2008 (UTC)
Ok, as i said further up. Why dont we compile all ethnic macedonian organizations and which ever symbol is used more often can become the symbol. @ AVG, this will stop the POV pushing slavomacedonian editors from bieng to biased, wont it? That would be more democratic. PMK1 (talk) 06:13, 15 May 2008 (UTC)
Let's put the Vergina Star then as FYROM's flag since this is what you want. Let's call you simply Macedonians since this what you want. Let's call Thessaloniki Solun since this what you want. I've said it before, I say it again. You don't have only rights, you have obligations as well. You have to respect other people's sensitivities as they respect yours. You go all along playing the victim card and yet when you consider you've achieved superiority in numbers (by gaming the system of course), you show your true face by imposing your POV to the encyclopaedia, ignoring all consensus process and any objectivity concerns. Why should we even care how many Slavomacedonian organisations use it? They use it because they want to monopolise it. It is a symbol undoubtedly found in Greece and used by Greece long before FYROM. It's either we don't use it at all here (less friction and I can accept that), or if someone is to use it, it should obviously be the one in which it belongs.--Avg 07:05, 15 May 2008 (UTC)
Actually i thought we were voting to decide which emblem would be used. Now, you obviously have a problem with the verdict because of "POV pushing slavomacedonians", SO the next obvious alternative would be to let the Ethnic Macedonian people as a whole decide what their emblem should be? A comprehensive collation of all the different organizations would provide a comprehensive veiw of how they identify them selves? I cannot see what is the problem with that? I Know i do not object to the greeks of Macedonia using the star on a blue background as their emblem. PMK1 (talk) 08:31, 15 May 2008 (UTC)
The people on Wikipedia must understand the Macedonian Sun was being used as a symbol by the Ethnic Macedonians the same time the Greek Macedonians in Greek Macedonia were using it. Neither have historical ties to it, and both use it as a MODERN symbol. Ethnic Macedonians grind there teeth everytime we see the Vergina Sun on the blue background, but we understand that is the symbol Greek Macedonians self-determinate with. Ethnic Macedonians self-determinate with the Macedonian Sun on the RED background, which should be respected by the Greeks. The Macedonian sun is found in the Republic of Macedonia, it differentiates from the Greek Macedonian symbol since it uses different colors (the same as Norway and Sweden differentiate their flag), the symbol is of modern use by both parties, and the vote as shown the majority are in favor of the Macedonian Sun. Greeks, you cannot always have it your way, and you cannot see this as a lose, this is not a battle, this is a right to self-determinate. Mactruth (talk) 18:55, 15 May 2008 (UTC)
The people on Wikipedia must understand the Macedonian Sun was being used as a symbol by the Ethnic Macedonians the same time the Greek Macedonians in Greek Macedonia were using it. Neither have historical ties to it, and both use it as a MODERN symbol. Ethnic Macedonians grind there teeth everytime we see the Vergina Sun on the blue background, but we understand that is the symbol Greek Macedonians self-determinate with. Ethnic Macedonians self-determinate with the Macedonian Sun on the RED background, which should be respected by the Greeks. The Macedonian sun is found in the Republic of Macedonia, it differentiates from the Greek Macedonian symbol since it uses different colors (the same as Norway and Sweden differentiate their flag), the symbol is of modern use by both parties, and the vote as shown the majority are in favor of the Macedonian Sun. Greeks, you cannot always have it your way, and you cannot see this as a lose, this is not a battle, this is a right to self-determinate. Mactruth (talk) 18:56, 15 May 2008 (UTC)
Administrators, what else must we do? We have done a vote which Greeks elected to do and we have respected Greek Macedonian self-determination by using the Vergina Sun on the blue background. Ethnic Macedonians differentiate by using the Macedonian Sun, which is found in the Republic of Macedonia, on a Red background. Because of this, they are not the same, Other examples:
As you can see, other countries also have similar flags, yet only this one causes dispute. The only other options is choosing an Ethnic Macedonian symbol based on non-governmental affiliated Macedonian organizations, as Kocovski has stated. Mactruth (talk) 19:08, 15 May 2008 (UTC)
Thanks everybody, now we have a template without any image. And every time a new link needs to be added, we have to go to Moreschi or Future. I told you all that the Vergina Sun will lead to this, and that we should choose amongst ourselves between the Coat of Arms and the Lion, regardless of it being the most widely used symbol or not. But no, you had to pick the Sun, even when I explained the edit-warring power of the Greek Wikipedians. And some of them are now thinking of this as a "victory". Denes nad Makedonskite statii se ragja, nov sablon na zaebancijata. BalkanFever 07:57, 16 May 2008 (UTC)
The immaturity of this discussion is striking. The question shouldn't be whether ethnic Macedonians are entitled to use the Vergina Sun emblem (they can use whatever emblem they want), but whether it actually is used more than any other emblem. Ethnic Macedonians have a nation-state and the Vergina Sun is not on that state's flag or coat of arms (and neither is the Bulgarian Lion), so how on earth can it possibly be proven that the Vergina Sun (or the Bulgarian Lion) are more representative of the people in question than emblems which have been officially recorded as such. If an emblem is to be included in the template, the nation-state's flag (or coat of arms) should be it, unless it can be proven that another emblem is actually used and is used uniformly throughout the ethnic group (i.e. not only by those of neo-fascist persuasions, something which seems to be the case). Until such conclusive proof in the form of reliable sources is found (and it won't), there is no point in even discussing it.--Dexippus (talk) 15:53, 16 May 2008 (UTC)
That's a reasonable point, I think, although I'd not be quite so pessimistic about the sourcing. But in any case, another point I'd like to make is, I'm actually quite content with the no-image solution also on aesthetic grounds. For a short while yesterday, an article like Macedonians in Serbia had two Vergina stars on it, one in the infobox and one in the nav box right below it. Both in slightly different sizes and shades of red. Now, that looked really shitty. I personally have no problem at all with Macedonians of all persuasions using whatever version of that star they like, but having more than one in front of my eyes gives me headaches. Fut.Perf.☼ 16:27, 16 May 2008 (UTC)
First of all, let clearify some facts. That lion is not Bulgarian at all. Where did you get that idea? The Bulgarian lion is different and the Macedonian one is different. And second thing, the Star is Macedonian symbol and there is no doubt of that. Although it is not on the present day flag, it is still Macedonian symbol since the new flag is short version of the old one. And why it cannot be Macedonian symbol? As I know the German national symbol is the eagle and the eagle is not on the German flag. It is the same case as here. And about that article Macedonians in serbia, the first star is about the community in Serbia only. And once for all, the Greek flag is blue not red. --Raso mk (talk) 18:41, 16 May 2008 (UTC)
I'm not saying that the Vergina Sun or the Bulgarian Lion "can't" be the "true" Macedonian symbol. What I am saying is that you haven't proven it is yet. In order to prove it, you'll have to produce a reliable source saying something like "despite the change in the official flag, most people still identify with the old flag". Focusing on the emblems of individual nationalist organizations is not sufficient because reaching the conclusion that the old symbol is more popular would be arbitrary and original research. As for the German Eagle, it is on the German coat of arms.--Dexippus (talk) 19:22, 16 May 2008 (UTC)
So the ethnic group themselves doesnt fulfill the right to identify with the old flag, we need a "reliable" source to say that people identify with it??? How bizarre? PMK1 (talk) 12:23, 17 May 2008 (UTC)
Heh, and I thought that Polish/Baltic/Russian disputes are bad:) Anyway, it depends how reliable we consider dozen anonymous wikipedian members of ethnic group representing whole group of more than million people. So reliable source would be indeed very useful, and give lot less room for edit warring.--Staberinde (talk) 13:13, 17 May 2008 (UTC)
The only other option would be to view Macedonian organizations (international ones):
As you can see, all the organizations use the ancient Macedonian Sun to represent themselves. Another point: Some Greeks argue "If the Vergina Sun were your ethnic symbol then it would be used nationally by the Republic of Macedonia." My response is: We DID have that as our national symbol until a Greek embargo to the South (and NATO embargo to the North) forced us to change it. Hope that answers your question. Mactruth (talk) 23:11, 17 May 2008 (UTC)
Did you not read what I wrote above? Let me repeat: "Focusing on the emblems of individual nationalist organizations is not sufficient because reaching the conclusion that the old symbol is more popular would be arbitrary and original research". I stand by what I said. Individual Wikipedians cannot collect their own raw data and then add their own interpretations of it into the article; attributable interpretations by reliable secondary sources are necessary. The flag and emblem of the relevant nation-state are assumed to be the national symbols of the nation in question until the requisite secondary sources proving otherwise are produced. The personal research of Wikipedian Mactruth (what an agenda-concealing user name!) or anyone else is irrelevant.--Dexippus (talk) 00:32, 18 May 2008 (UTC)
Dexippus, I am simply stating:
Greeks initiated to do a vote which resulted in a ancient Macedonian Sun symbol
Most Macedonian Organizations (which represent and were chosen by Macedonians) use the ancient Macedonian Sun.
The Emblems of these "Individual Nationalist Organizations" are not Nationalistic Organizations at all. That is your incomprehension. Those show the Macedonians in Albania, the Macedonians in Serbia, the Macedonians in Bulgaria, and the Macedonians of North America all chose the ancient Macedonian Sun or a variant of it as their symbol. Like I stated, your argument about "flag and emblem of the relevant nation-state are...national symbols of the nation" are problematic because you ignore the situation in which the Flag and Emblem were (forcefully) chosen. The Flag was the ancient Macedonian Sun from 1991-1995 but a Greek embargo to the South and NATO embargo to the North forced us to change it into the current flag. Also, the Macedonia Lion was supposed to be used to upgrade the current Coat of Arms, but Bulgarian pressure not to use it caused the upgrade to halt. But again, what secondary source is needed, it seems like I have already fulfilled that criteria. I'm guessing you want a statement from a source stating "The national Macedonian symbol is the Sun" which is outlandish and will be regarded by you (and your fellow Greeks) as "just a Nationalistic statement." Also, the statement "everything else is irrelevant" and even your argument are your own POV. Mactruth (talk) 01:56, 18 May 2008 (UTC)
I'd like to request to the Administrators what would be needed to get the symbol which got majority vote? Isn't it unfair that everyone chose a vote would be fair, now since it went our way another criteria must be met? Mactruth (talk) 02:02, 18 May 2008 (UTC)
Greeks do not have some privilege in wikipedia relating to Vergina sun matters, so the fact that some of them was the initiator of poll which macedonians won is irrelevant, WP:NOTDEMOCRACY. Secondly spamming links and drawing your own conclusions on them is irrelevant and original research. You need reliable source which states that flag with Vergina sun is more widely used by Macedonians, then current official flag. (Sorry for bolding sh?t but some people just seem to fail understanding the point)--Staberinde (talk) 08:32, 18 May 2008 (UTC)
Staberinde, I don't understand how they are spamming pages? My God, most are Wikipedia pages, and I included secondary websites to support those pages, unless you are arguing Wikipedia is a spam website? I did not draw my own conclusions: I stated Macedonians in Albania, Bulgaria, Serbia, and North America use the ancient Macedonian Sun on political levels, which the websites I show leave no doubt. So, Wikipedia is not a reliable source, the UMD website is not a reliable source or any other of the websites are not a reliable source. The only reliable source for you would be a Greek website. Mactruth (talk) 21:46, 18 May 2008 (UTC)
Also, I asked the ADMINISTRATORS what what needed since even though Greeks initiated the poll, the Administrators accepted the results of that poll would be used as the Ethnic Macedonian symbol. Mactruth (talk) 21:53, 18 May 2008 (UTC)
Firstly, if administrators promised you something, then you need to contact those administrators directly, complaining here is not helping about it. Secondly, is my English really that bad? I tried to spell it out as clearly as possible but he still didn't understant. Macedonians in other countries form quite small minority compared to Macedonians in Macedonia. You need reliable source that says something along the lines: "Despite Macedonia adopting new official flag in 1995, majority of Macedonians still use more the old flag with Vergina sun."--Staberinde (talk) 07:34, 19 May 2008 (UTC)
Both symbols are present in Macedonian nation since ever!!! Makedonij (talk) 13:47, 17 May 2008 (UTC)
Firstly every random webpage is not reliable source. Secondly in this case it isn't about proving that Macedonians use Vergina sun, its about proving that they use it more widely then official flag or coat of arms.--Staberinde (talk) 14:19, 17 May 2008 (UTC)
Yup, you only prove that nationalistic webpages use it. Non of these is anywhere near a reliable source (it's mostly propaganda crap). And btw most of them use the flag as well. --LaveolT 15:56, 17 May 2008 (UTC)
I bet Macedonian heraldry assotiation is propaganda to a?Makedonij (talk) 16:54, 17 May 2008 (UTC)
se -ARTICLE on that web pageMakedonij (talk) 16:58, 17 May 2008 (UTC)
More or less. The site is laughable at the least. I mean, they could've worked out a more descent site if they were such a respected organisation. --LaveolT 17:00, 17 May 2008 (UTC)
But what should we see there? --LaveolT 17:44, 17 May 2008 (UTC)
You are supposed to see that both of the symbols are used by Macedonians. PMK1 (talk) 08:36, 18 May 2008 (UTC)
Come on people you are putting links to prove our own national symbols? It is funny! If so every nationality on this Wikipedia should prove their own national symbols. This is just funny. Ha ha ha ha Everuone knows what are we and who are we and to everyone is perfectly clear what is the national sumbol of Macedonia, Hellas or Balgaria. --MacedonianBoy (talk) 15:08, 19 May 2008 (UTC)
i hope you are able to read it. If someone could make the changes it would be appreciated. Just basically adding some more topics to the template. PMK1 (talk) 12:16, 21 May 2008 (UTC)
Agree to this change. BalkanFever 12:22, 21 May 2008 (UTC)
Is the Ilinden uprising necessary? --LaveolT 12:25, 21 May 2008 (UTC)
It is necessary!But i don't think that your comments are!Makedonij (talk) 14:14, 21 May 2008 (UTC)
Thanx for making the changes. PMK1 (talk) 23:58, 21 May 2008 (UTC)
With all do respect, I think that the Ilinden Uprising does not have to be included in the template. Yes, it was conducted by the grandfathers of the Macedonians that have ethnic Macedonians conscience today and by their Vlach brothers in arms, but those people that organized the Ilinden uprising did not have the same ethnic Macedonian conscience as we have today. the people that organized the Ilinden uprising were from the pro-Bulgarian party in Macedonia. Yes, a lot of them during WW2 and after revived them selfs as Macedonians, but in in 1903 the insurrection was organized by Macedonians that regarded themselves as Bulgarians. I am always OBJECTIVE when I write or revise articles. P.S. Also exclude Judaism from the template and include it in the Republic of Macedonia template. P.P.S. I also request that the results from the voting be recognized and include the old R. Macedonia red background flag on the template. Regards. --Revizionist (talk) 17:39, 22 May 2008 (UTC)
{{editprotected}}Hi can i make another request to edit please inorder to accomodate the changes on wikipedia. Thanx.PMK1 (talk) 09:54, 29 May 2008 (UTC)
So, just to be sure, you want the text below to replace the current text? I just want to be clear, as you specified no specifics. PeterSymonds(talk) 14:45, 29 May 2008 (UTC)
Yes the template below as it has more information on it. Thanx. PMK1 (talk) 06:09, 30 May 2008 (UTC)
<!--Categories-->
[[Category:Ethnic group templates|Macedonians]]
Are Macedonians from Pirin known as "Pirin Macedonians" and are they viewed as a sub-group(?) like the "Aegean Macedonians" are? 3rdAlcove (talk) 19:14, 30 May 2008 (UTC)
Well when i started the article about Pirin macedonians it was promptly deleted and then i had to recreate the page under Ethnic Macedonians in Bulgaria. But it still is a posibility. As for being a subgroup, in the 40's and 50's they would have been grouped together with the Macedonians in Yugoslavia, the major split being Vardar+Pirin vs. Aegean. But the different circumstances of the people in the Pirin region, could classify them as a sub group. For excactly the same reasons as Aegean Macedonians, eg. Songs, dialects, branch of orthodoxy, repressions etc. But by the 2000's there were more significant differences. So i guess you could classify them as a sub group. PMK1 (talk) 00:56, 31 May 2008 (UTC)
Yeah, those repressions sure make for a different cultural experience! 3rdAlcove (talk) 08:25, 31 May 2008 (UTC)
Lol, are you bieng sarcastic? But that would be the major reasons why they are a subgroup, but the bulgarian editors would chuck a fit, if the link was Pirin Macedonians. Thats probably why no one has pusued it. PMK1 (talk) 05:24, 1 June 2008 (UTC)
{{editprotected}}
Per the results of the above discussion about the image (sections 12-15), can an admin familiar with HTML please update the image with the Vergina Flag. Thanks, PeterSymonds(talk) 08:19, 31 May 2008 (UTC)
Admins removed it, in the first place. 3rdAlcove (talk) 08:25, 31 May 2008 (UTC)
Contact User:Moreschi - an admin, before trying something like that. The image was removed by him and for a reason. You can also contact another admin - User:Future Perfect at Sunrise if you want. I think they share the same view on the subject.--LaveolT 11:43, 31 May 2008 (UTC)
Just to clarify: I voted against that image, so I'm certainly not an "uninvolved admin" here. I would certainly not stand in the way of somebody else if they, after careful weighing of the merits of the arguments, came to the conclusion that a consensus for that image had been reached in the poll. I do note, however, that Moreschi, in removing the image and then protecting the page, apparently intended that to be the administrative outcome of the process. Reinstating the image now without consulting him would be a bit wheel-warry, especially as it would defy the very purpose the protection was installed in the first place. Fut.Perf.☼ 16:05, 31 May 2008 (UTC)
I believe the protection occurred before the vote took place... I remember I was one of the initiators in which constant changes from the Lion to the current Coat of Arms were occurring, so I am not sure it the protection occurred after the vote or before hand, he may remember though. Mactruth (talk) 16:47, 31 May 2008 (UTC)
It was after the vote and after a couple of contributors got blocked for edit-warring on this and other articles. --LaveolT 16:49, 31 May 2008 (UTC)
NEdit declined for now. The image was removed and the page protected because editors edit warred about the flag, which indicates that there wasn't much of a consensus about this issue, despite the poll above. To reinsert the flag, we would need some evidence that there now is a consensus . Sandstein 22:55, 31 May 2008 (UTC)
Sandstein, can you give some examples of evidence because I am unsure of what you mean Mactruth (talk) 18:54, 1 June 2008 (UTC)
A clear consensus must exist at the time the edit request is made. See WP:PER. Sandstein 16:49, 10 June 2008 (UTC)
<!--Categories-->
[[Category:Ethnic group templates|Macedonians]]
hi could someone please edit the template so the new Diaspora article can be added thanx. PMK1 (talk) 07:38, 10 June 2008 (UTC)
NEdit declined, consensus not demonstrated yet. See WP:PER. Sandstein 16:48, 10 June 2008 (UTC)
In my understanding, the protection was only about the image. The inclusion of other articles , especially one that is so obviously relevant as a summary article to several that are already in the list, should not be controversial at all. Fut.Perf.☼ 16:59, 10 June 2008 (UTC)
{{editprotected}}?? May i try again, my edit has nothing to do with the image. thank you. PMK1 (talk) 11:23, 11 June 2008 (UTC)
Can we finally put a symbol in the template? This is not good without any sumbol. Only the Macedonian does not have symbol. --MacedonianBoy (talk) 08:33, 14 June 2008 (UTC)
. Agreed, I propose something new, this image on left. Please vote. Bijornos (talk) 06:49, 18 August 2008 (UTC)
Hi everyone, this has to go in regards to the template symbol for Macedonians (ethnic group). At the Eurominority, it recognizes the symbol of the Macedonian minorities (diaspora in Europe) as being the ancient Macedonian sun. Would this have any grounds for proof? Also realize its the official symbol of Macedonians in Serbia and Albania.
It's difficult to use RoM symbols because the Republic of Macedonia changed its flag due to Greek pressure, and kept the Communist coat of arms due to a number of reasons including the Albanians, VMRO-DPMNE, and Bulgarian objection. Not to mention Greek Macedonia gets to unanimously use the symbol without any argumentation. Mactruth (talk) 02:03, 10 November 2008 (UTC)
"Eurominority"? That's the same site that also claims "Makedonia xakousti" is their ethnic hymn, right? Then let's put that in too...;-) Fut.Perf.☼ 05:53, 18 August 2008 (UTC)
By the way, Mactruth, why don't you just have your password reset if you forgot it? Since you have e-mail enabled it should be possible. Fut.Perf.☼ 05:55, 18 August 2008 (UTC)
Hmm... good point, didn't even realize that. The only thing I can think of is its the hymn of assimilated Macedonians, or the hymn of the regions Macedonians make a large minority (hymn of Republic of Macedonia and hymn of Greek Macedonia). Other then that, can't really think of another reason because if you look at the cities it says both Skopje and Thessaloníki so I'm leanly more toward the hymn of the regions they live in, but its just a guess. Future, if I have my password I would be on WP all day, everyday. Having my password forgotten allows me to avoid overuse of WP. Mactruth (talk) 02:03, 10 November 2008 (UTC)
I great question for you Future, the Vergina Sun is claimed by Greeks to be a Greek symbol, I on the other hand believe it is a regional symbol just like the double headed eagle. Why? Thracians also have been shown to use, not only the Greek alphabet, but also the Vergina Sun. Also, Czar Samuel of Bulgaria has also been shown to either use the Vergina Sun or treasure the symbol due to its finding in his castle in Ohrid. So, if it were Greek, then Thracians and Czar Samuel are Greek also according to Greek logic. Do you not see the problem with this. Yes, I agree Greeks used the symbol, but so did non-Greeks thus it is a regional symbol. That is why I cannot understand why Greek Macedonians get to self-determinate with the symbol, but ethnic Macedonians are not allowed to on WP. It's difficult to find a source which states "Macedonians use the Old Flag to self-determinate." It's difficult to find a source stating this for any ethnic group. Mactruth (talk) 02:03, 10 November 2008 (UTC)
There seems to be a lot of to-and-fro over the use of Image:Macedonianbox.png. I only have the vaguest of ideas as to how to parse the imagery of this, but: is there consensus for its inclusion here, and is there evidence for its common use "in the wild" -- in at least something fairly close to that form -- as a symbol for the Macedonian people? We should obviously not be using this page as a kite-flying exercise for someone's personal exercise in ethnographic design, but if it's a reasonable assemblage of generally-acceptable elements... Alai (talk) 05:18, 10 November 2008 (UTC)
Well, not really. The ray design is of course reminiscent of the national flag, but only just, the colours and geometry are different. The lion emblem is used though. I'd personally have no objection against the lion emblem alone; what I found more objectionable was the version where an old 17th-century copy of that lion was used, implying an historical continuity that is really quite dubious. Fut.Perf.☼ 08:46, 10 November 2008 (UTC)
It sounds to me like it's going to be problematic to find any such image that meets the required standards. If it's just a collage of "Macedonianish images", it could be objected to on ORish grounds. If it's based on a national flag, current or historical, or that of a pan-Macedonian nationalist movement, there are obvious neutrality issues. It's for this sort of reason that such pages don't typically have flags or logos, I have to suggest. Alai (talk) 17:27, 10 November 2008 (UTC)
First of all as i see above, there was a transparent vote, and the formal flag of the R.Macedonia took the majority of the votes. I do not know why it is not put as the symbol used by the majority of the ethnic Macedonians both in R.Macedonia and the world, and which is backed by so many references in the disscutions above. Plase let us be real, there are a lot of nations which have official state symbols, but different national symbols - the etnic Macedonians are thus. There are hundreds of references telling that the vergina sun of a red backgriund is the symbol ethnic Macedonians use for selfidentification. Regards. P.S. Abouth the lion as a symbol of medieval Macedonia, the best references can be found here: Грбовите на Македонија, Александар Матковски. "Мисла" 1990, Скопје. --Revizionist (talk) 07:58, 9 September 2008 (UTC)
And what "medieval Macedonia" has to do with our subject here? (BTW are you aware of the medieval Macedonia (Byzantine thema)?) Furthermore, what is this strange business, around these articles to quote obscure, non-English language, of questionable credibility (if not outright propagandistic or even partisan approach) sources and expect to take their "word" for granted? I stand by what I've said; there is no evidence what-so-ever as to include this spurious emblem here. -- 157.228.x.x (talk) 15:24, 19 October 2008 (UTC)
Wasn't this settled months ago in favour of leaving any symbols out of the template? What's happened since then?·ΚΕΚΡΩΨ· 15:42, 19 October 2008 (UTC)
I double you. What happened with the consensus? Why can't we just have the flag of the country or something else that's not controversial? Btw I recently had one of thеse old books and took a picture of the lions (guess what name it had - hint: It didn't start with an "M")--LaveolT 23:04, 20 October 2008 (UTC)
"One (singular) of that [sic] old books (plural)"... Bias according to your own words, well done. Köbra | Könverse 08:46, 21 October 2008 (UTC)
Anything constructive to add?--LaveolT 11:52, 21 October 2008 (UTC)
Apart from being critical of your self-centeredness? Umm... No, not really. I have no time to deal with internet warriors, especially in a virtual war as pathetic as this one. Köbra | Könverse 12:19, 21 October 2008 (UTC)
You say this and in the same time you're actually quite involved in one yourself. --LaveolT 15:14, 21 October 2008 (UTC)
If only. Köbra | Könverse 09:10, 23 October 2008 (UTC)
This template does not need an image. Therefore, to reduce edit-warring, it won't have one. Thank you. Moreschi (talk) 22:59, 21 October 2008 (UTC)
Who the hell are you to make something clear or to decide whether there will be the national symbol of the macedonians on their template or not? I bet you are not even familiar with the matter and even if you are, it does not matter. If this template does not need an image, others don't need one, too. This is an act of pure discrimination. The macedonians agree that their national symbol is the Vergina sun. That is the only thing that matters. It does not matter if the whole world likes it or not, it is a fact. I'm sure that this template will bear that symbol in near future, because I believe that wikipedia is democratic. Cukiger (talk) 03:28, 22 October 2008 (UTC)
Note: the ethnic flag of the Slovenians (white-blue-red) is the same tricolour as the Russian flag and there is no such childish trouble.. This is as ridiculous as it can be, just like the Macedonia name dispute. Cukiger (talk) 03:33, 22 October 2008 (UTC)
To tell you the truth, I don't like those red bars very much. Too garish for my taste. Fut.Perf.☼ 08:46, 7 November 2008 (UTC)
They're bloody hideous. Yes, we know you're the reds and we're the blues, but c'mon.·ΚΕΚΡΩΨ· 08:53, 7 November 2008 (UTC)
Yes, they are a bit too strong i think. Maybe a background style colour would possibly be more appropriate. Any other suggestions? Or just to remove the colours? Anyway kekrops, the colour choice isnt vital, i would be against say yellow, blue or even brownish maybe? PMK1 (talk) 09:38, 8 November 2008 (UTC)
Would anything but scarlet red and fluoro yellow be acceptable to the more excitable types?·ΚΕΚΡΩΨ· 09:39, 8 November 2008 (UTC)
Not into the yellow either? PMK1 (talk) 02:49, 9 November 2008 (UTC)
The yellow looks pretty good, actually. BalkanFever 03:31, 9 November 2008 (UTC)
And if you make them all redlinks, you may finally get the ethnic template you've always wanted.·ΚΕΚΡΩΨ· 04:02, 9 November 2008 (UTC)
Ohoho, sarcasm. How intelligent of you. You're that much closer to becoming a neutral Greek scholar. Köbra | Könverse 09:41, 9 November 2008 (UTC)
You laughed, didn't you? Admit it.·ΚΕΚΡΩΨ· 09:57, 9 November 2008 (UTC)
I just couldn't help it, but click on the Redlinks. Now, the question is - should I create the article bout them?:)--LaveolT 11:02, 9 November 2008 (UTC)
red looks pretty hot actually, any way we can get red letters? Mactruth (talk) 02:04, 10 November 2008 (UTC)
@kekrops, then you can have this article, which im sure youd love to start. PMK1 (talk) 07:06, 12 November 2008 (UTC)
Anybody noticed that Aegean Macedonians are also linked from Greece? Could you sort this out? Or I should become paranoid and presume that you do it on purpose to confuse people on who the "Aegean Macedonians" are?--Avg (talk) 17:38, 10 November 2008 (UTC)
This dispute over symbols seems to be as interminable as it's intolerable. Per Moreschi above, I've removed the image and protected the template for the time being to end the edit warring until this dispute can be resolved. I'm happy to help with that, but I'd like to set out some suggetsions for you first. I can see two possible routes here. One would be to use a symbol that is generally agreed to represent the Macedonian people. Note that this must be sourced. It won't be acceptable to make this claim without reliable, verifiable sources. The other would be to do what many other ethnic articles/templates do and present a collage of images of famous Macedonians, similar to what is presented in Albanian people, French people, Russian people and many other articles. Or, of course, if there's no agreement then it's probably best not to have an image in the template at all. -- ChrisO (talk) 19:56, 10 November 2008 (UTC)
Wait, these collage images are typically placed in the infobox, at the top of the main article only. We are here dealing not with an infobox but with a navbox, to be placed in all of a series of articles. You don't really want those face collages plastered into every Macedonian-related article, do you? And by the way, the collages have their perennial problems too. (Lots of room for OR and POV-pushing in selecting the persons to be shown!) Actually, I find those collages a pest, but that's a different matter. Ethnicity navboxes do typically have a flag or emblem-like symbol at the top, look at {{Albanians}}, {{Greeks}}, {{Turkish people}}, {{Croats}}, {{Montenegrins}}, {{Catalans}}. Not that I'd insist it's a very good idea to have them. In fact, there seems to be a correlation: the higher the affectedness of an ethnicity's coverage in Wikipedia by nationalist edit disputes, the higher the probability that somebody will come up with a navbox featuring a patriotic symbol at the top. Fut.Perf.☼ 21:35, 10 November 2008 (UTC)
I agree with both of the above points. If an image is to be used, it must both properly sourced, and achieve a good deal more consensus than contention among the available sources. But Macedonians (ethnic group) already uses a collage-style infobox, and it would not seem correct to duplicate that in the widely-transcluded nav template. Perhaps too widely-transcluded: part of the issue here is that it's used on articles whose (apparent) scope is the modern Republic of Macedonia, as well as various articles on communities in other Balkan countries, and on migrants elsewhere. It might be a useful exercise to review whether different version of this templates might be usefully employed on different articles, with a view to mitigating the impact of this dispute. Alai (talk) 23:21, 10 November 2008 (UTC)
I don't see a problem with the previous picture. It represents Macedonians, a lion modified with the rays of the current flag of. RoM. Why not try and that way. The image is in some kind modern. I don't think that thats a big dial, but simply changes some things.By the way to rise up so much dust because this infobox gained a picture-you simply know what I want to say. Please take a cold shower.Vlatko (talk) 17:03, 11 November 2008 (UTC)
I asked you on my talkpage and I'll ask you again - what is this lion? What does it mean? Tell me and I'll give you a list of the problems (as has Fut.Perf. by the way). --LaveolT 20:03, 11 November 2008 (UTC)
Here Laveol, since you are Bulgarian, wont be hard to understand the language? Documentary movie about Macedonian heraldy:
Knowing that you will say that is not an good source, here is a book for you which is very old,Aleksandar Matkovski - Grbovite na Makedonija. If that is not good to, tray College and museum of Bolognia, the founding will be nice for Bulgarian reader.Makedonij (talk) 17:25, 19 May 2009 (UTC)
And something else, tray Nine worthies on wiki.:)Makedonij (talk) 17:28, 19 May 2009 (UTC)
It is a historical symbol of the Macedonian people dating back to at least 1595, but I bet you have a different theory. Cukiger (talk) 20:38, 11 November 2008 (UTC)
It's getting soooo lame. A historical symbol of who? I see you had a look at the BG article. What did you see? Let me guess - the same lion? Do you have an idea that people in the Balkans call this a Balkan lion? Not you of course - you call it a "Macedonian" lion. And do you know that poeple in Europe (not, let it be scholars in Europe) call this a European lion? Any idea? I guess you don't, cause this is obviously the one and only especially "Macedonian" lion that lived only in the region of Macedonia. Is this the case? Cause as I said this sounds laughable at the least. Oh, and this is not a battle, as ou know. The fact that the image has been contested here, doesn't mean you have to fight your way to the Bulgarian article. --LaveolT 20:49, 11 November 2008 (UTC)
Then give us a source in which the same yellow lion on red background with two tails? I am very keen to see them, as I am very interested in heraldry and exillology. I've never heard of that lion being called "Balkan" or "European" lion. And I said that this lion is a symbol of the Macedonian people, don't you agree on that? And please don't be sad, you're manipulating Macedonian articles all the time as if it is your job. That's the only reason why you're a member of Wikipedia. Cukiger (talk) 21:05, 11 November 2008 (UTC)
No use discussing the historicity of the thing here. It is probably undisputed that the symbol is being used as a Macedonian symbol (among other things) today, and as such, yes, it is a reasonable candidate for use here. Whether it was ever a symbol of Macedonians before the 20th century is disputable (to say the least). To use it as a present-day symbol here wouldn't strike me as particularly objectionable; to use the 16th-century image, with the implication of historical continuity, I'd find highly problematic. Fut.Perf.☼ 21:16, 11 November 2008 (UTC)
We've moved the discussion to the relevant talkpage.:) --LaveolT 21:21, 11 November 2008 (UTC)
Here is no ned for explanation at all, the entire time we only see how other spend their free time in cyclic discussions. If here in wikipedia the administrators had the right to judge over this phenomenon, 90% of the "talkers" would have won a big BAN. You have a problem with the present self convince of your own nationality truth. I know who I'm and stop dreaming that i'll change in regard. Leave the macedonians, novadays the free will is respected not suppressed. We have and use our national symbols, the lion the sun... you use them to... its OK. Don't forget that serbia, montenegro, russia and others use the byzantine eagle .... we use a version of a lion. Please believe me that I'm tired in explaining in a reasonable way the question " please tell me why is that so", in no way that is making you clever but only more obvious. if you understand this you'll stop playing and become constructive. The lion is symbol that I respect as a macedonian and use to represent me as bulgaria uses it, also and england, norway... but any version is unique. What are the similarities between this coats in regard of the macedonian and the bulgarian? User:Vlatkoto/talk 23:19, 11 November 2008 (UTC)
Hi. Please update this template's first line to read
{{Sidebar with heading backgrounds
as this is the updated name for the metatemplate it uses. (The only effect on the template should be the appearance of a gap between its title and first heading.) Sardanaphalus (talk) 14:23, 12 November 2008 (UTC)
Nothing to do with the present-day country of a similar name. 1. The text is highly contested (see the talkpage) and 2. I think it means Macedonians in a different way.--LaveolT 10:32, 23 November 2008 (UTC)
1. It has everything to do with the country, it is part of the history and formation of Macedonian statehood 2. It talks about Macedonians in a national sense. 3. The text was found in the Russian archives and is mentioned in several Bulgarian archives. 4. The text is only being disputed by a couple of nationalist users who want special access to the Russian archives to search for the document themselves, otherwise the text is invalid according to them lol.Polibiush (talk) 17:16, 23 November 2008 (UTC)
Seriously, I'd recommend leaving it out of the template until the article itself is better sourced. We need secondary literature telling us about the historical significance of that movement and all. The article is also written in very poor English. You don't really want to showcase this article as part of the core treatment of your nation in Wikipedia at this point. Fut.Perf.☼ 18:05, 23 November 2008 (UTC)
You don't really want to showcase this article as part of the core treatment of your nation in Wikipedia at this point.
May I ask why? Polibiush (talk) 20:28, 23 November 2008 (UTC)
Because it's too poorly written, that's why, it would be embarrassing. But those links of yours are interesting. Does that book discuss this document somewhere? That's what we'd need, not just a n edition of the manifesto itself. Fut.Perf.☼ 20:35, 23 November 2008 (UTC)
Future, why would the grammar of the document have anything to do on whether its used? Macedonians are going to be selective now being "ooo its poor writing, it would embarrass us"? You have to be kidding, they fought for Macedonia and the formation of a Macedonian state, nothing embarrassing about that Mactruth (talk) 00:42, 30 November 2008 (UTC)
Ahem, you know, if my goal here were to write a good encyclopedia about topics related to my favourite country, then I would be embarrassed if among the first ten-twenty articles I advertised to my readers there was one that was unreadable crap. Your mileage may vary. Fut.Perf.☼ 01:00, 30 November 2008 (UTC)
It's a historical document, grammar isn't a checkpoint needed to use them, thats all I'm saying. If you mean the Wikipedia article is horribly written, then I agree grammer on the article should be updated. Mactruth (talk) 01:22, 30 November 2008 (UTC)
Of course I meant the article, not the document. Fut.Perf.☼ 08:18, 30 November 2008 (UTC)
gotchya. Mactruth (talk) 23:08, 30 November 2008 (UTC)
Please update the following template: Mactruth (talk) 01:22, 30 November 2008 (UTC)
Ugh, is this a competition for the most tacky colour combination? That red is terrible, IMHO. Fut.Perf.☼ 08:23, 30 November 2008 (UTC)
No, there is no competition, I'm guessing its a feature people recently found out about lol. But, the red isn't bad at all, actually it looks quite good on my computer at least. I changed the color to a different tone of red. Many ethnicities have both their symbol and colors of their choice on the templates, at least grant us our colors. Thanks. Mactruth (talk) 23:23, 30 November 2008 (UTC)
I must agree with Fut. Perf., the red is a bit Cliche. PMK1 (talk) 08:36, 1 December 2008 (UTC)
How is red cliche? Red and yellow are our colors, and it looks a lot better then currently having Black and Blue on a Yellow background. Mactruth (talk) 06:45, 4 December 2008 (UTC)
I'm strictly opposed to all non-standard colouring of text, as a matter of principle. Readers should not have their normal text colour preferences (as defined in their skin settings) messed around with. For most of us, that'll probably be: normal text is black, links are blue, redlinks are red. Anything that disturbs this convention is damaging to reader friendliness. Especially if it's done for such a frivolous reason as appealing to an ethnic group's favourite national symbol colours. Fut.Perf.☼ 07:00, 4 December 2008 (UTC)
How about canary yellow writing on a scarlet red background? That'll be a sight for sore eyes.·ΚΕΚΡΩΨ· 10:43, 4 December 2008 (UTC)
Macedonian colors are, Gold on Red platform:)Makedonij (talk) 13:28, 9 February 2009 (UTC)
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Done — Tivedshambo (t/c) 19:48, 21 May 2008 (UTC)
Edit declined for now. The image was removed and the page protected because editors edit warred about the flag, which indicates that there wasn't much of a consensus about this issue, despite the poll above. To reinsert the flag, we would need some evidence that there now is a consensus . Sandstein 22:55, 31 May 2008 (UTC)
