Template:Did you know nominations/Ein as-Sahala

Ein as-Sahla

(

• Back to T:TDYK
• Article history

)

• ... that Ein as-Sahla was established as a daughter village of Barta'a in the 19th century?

• Comment: The article was created from a redirect on 26th of May, 2016.

Created by Bolter21 (talk). Self-nominated at 14:18, 2 June 2016 (UTC).

• Article is new enough (former redirect), long enough, and neutrally written with inline citations. No close paraphrasing detected. The hook is interesting and is cited in the article. QPQ is not required. This should be good to go. Random86 (talk) 08:07, 6 June 2016 (UTC)

• The article does not mention when Ein as-Sahala was established. The 19th century was only mentioned as the time when the founders of Barta'a left Ya'bad. Therefore, the proposed hook cannot be used on MainPage. Please put the relevant details and refs into the article, or propose a new hook. --PFHLai (talk) 15:34, 8 June 2016 (UTC)

• The Hebrew source says it was established in the mid 19th century.. Obviously you don't speak Hebrew, how can I prove it?--Bolter21 (talk to me) 16:28, 8 June 2016 (UTC)

• The Hebrew source, titled "Ein a-Sahala: Type: Non-Jewish village", reads: An Arab village in Reches Um al-Pacham, two kilometers northeast of Arara. Established in the mid-19th century by residents of the village of Ya'bad.
• Note: The village name is spelled incorrectly in the title and text. Arab names begin with "a-" or "al-". This should be Ein a-Sahala. Yoninah (talk) 20:49, 8 June 2016 (UTC)

• The village is called Ein a-Sahala in Hebrew, but not in other sources. The name can be translated as "as-", "al-", "el-", and "es-". There is no correct form to write in English, it's a matter of dialect and we don't know which dialect does the people of Ein as-Sahala speak.--Bolter21 (talk to me) 20:53, 8 June 2016 (UTC)

• When it comes to foreign-language names, there are many variants in English-language sources. Wikipedia goes by WP:COMMONNAME. The article in the Hebrew Wikipedia calls it Ein Al-Sahala. Rather than go by your gut feeling, please go by the majority of sources. Yoninah (talk) 09:51, 9 June 2016 (UTC)

The question, should it be "al" or "el"? All Hebrer sources only use "a".. The sources doesn't provide an answer.--Bolter21 (talk to me) 17:07, 9 June 2016 (UTC)

• I see. The Israel Economist and Israel Government Yearbook, which you did not consult, spell it Ein el-Sahala. So do the Arab sources, Umm El Fahem Archive and Iron Construction Committee. The Hebrew sources call it either Ein a-Sahala or Ein Sahala. I would go with the majority of sources and call the page Ein el-Sahala. Yoninah (talk) 20:14, 9 June 2016 (UTC)

• Alright, but it needs to be Ein el-Sahla, because most sources I"ve seen said Sahla and not Sahala.--Bolter21 (talk to me) 21:55, 9 June 2016 (UTC)

• Fine. Yoninah (talk) 22:50, 9 June 2016 (UTC)

• Right, I don't know Hebrew. But I'm not looking at the sourcing issue yet. The history section of the article currently says:

  Some of the clan members left Ya'bad in the mid-19th century searching for sources of living, and they found a spring with pastures for their cattle and bought the lands around it and established Barta'a.[3][4] Ein es-Sahala was established as a daughter village of Barta'a.[3][2][4]

  There is no info in the artcle on how long it took to find the spring and buy the land, and how long it took Barta'a to grow so large/crowded that there were enough people to form a daughter village such as Ein as-Sahala ... (This seems to require a few generations?? Was it still the 19th century by then?? early 20th??). IMHO, the article does not support a hook that specifies when Ein as-Sahala was established. Since refs are available, please elaborate on the establishment of Ein as-Sahala and add the relevant info to the article. Otherwise, it seems a new hook is needed. --PFHLai (talk) 01:05, 11 June 2016 (UTC)

• There are several sources that state Ein as-Sahla was established in the 19th century. The source for the "daughter village fact says that the builders of Barta'a arrived at the middle 19th century, but we know that Ein as-Sahla already existed in the 19th century, as an actual source from the 19th cenutry mention Ein as-Sahle. I think this imply there is no debate that both Barta'a and Ein as-Sahla were established in the 19th century. New Arab villages at the time were not too developed, many of them were mud buildings, so I don't think there is a need in a doubt that a village from the mid-19th century can already have a daughter village in the late 19th century. Also, sorry for not responding and maybe making anyone feel like I am wasting his time.--Bolter21 (talk to me) 22:37, 30 June 2016 (UTC)

• Unlike the hook, the article currently does not specify when Ein as-Sahla was established. --PFHLai (talk) 21:01, 2 July 2016 (UTC)

• I"ve added the info and it is backed by the sources following the statement. (Spesifically this one (original Arabic version ), and this one in Hebrew which Yoninah translated in this discussion.--Bolter21 (talk to me) 21:38, 2 July 2016 (UTC)

• Thank you for adding the info to the article. Now both the article and the hook are saying the same thing. While I am not sure if "daughter" is the right word (development was so fast, I would have thought it was more like a "little sister"...), but I won't argue against sources in a language I do not speak. Rest of the review per Random86 above. --PFHLai (talk) 09:03, 3 July 2016 (UTC)

• @PFHLai: the English-language source in footnote 3 says that the parent village was a "mother" to Ein as-Sahala and other villages, so the "daughter" label works. Yoninah (talk) 12:23, 3 July 2016 (UTC)

• Thanks, Yoninah. --PFHLai (talk) 20:04, 3 July 2016 (UTC)