Talk:Catharism/Archive 1
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There should be no problem in the merging of the two articles. But i do differ with JHK on the point that the word "albigensians" is purely geographical. True it is geographical insofar as it refers to the town of Albi, but it also refers to the crusade by the same name. Let not Pope Innocent's Magum Opus go completely unacknowledged.arunvenkat
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Cathars are albigensians. Albigensians is a geographical name. Unless anyone objects, I'll combine both under Cathars, and fix links to Albigensians = Cathars. I'll leave this up for a day or so befor changing.JHK
So, what's the deal with the merge? They definitely need to be merged! Coontie 04:03, 22 April 2006 (UTC) I can merge the articles... Is there a how-to on how to do this properly?
ARE ALL CATHARI ALBIGENSIANS?
Cathar was a catch all term for heretics with ascetic and iconiclastic tendencies. Albigensians were Cathars in the Languedoc area. Patarines were Cathars in northern Italy. There were several branches of Humiliati one of which was purely Cathar. There was another branch of Cathars called the Apostolics. Patarines were Cathars but not all Cathars were Patarines. A branch of Humiliati were Cathars but not all Cathars were Humiliati. Albigensians were Cathars but not all Cathars were Albigensians. To put it another way: Greek Orthodoxy is Catholic, but not all Catholics are Greek Orthodox. Baptists are Protestants but not all Protestants are Baptist.
When most people refer to Albigensians they are referring to the later Cathari that were living close to the time of the massacre at Montsegur. Gibbons, Arnold, and others say that these late Albigensians came closer and closer to orthodox Christianity before their extermination. In fact they were so close to orthodoxy that remaining Albigensians merged with the Waldensians which left the Albigensian mark on both doctrine and customs of the Waldensians. The earlier Cathari were so infested with docetism and gnostism that they were sharp enemies with the early Waldensians. True there were still some very die hard gnostics at Montsegur but there were also many closer to orthodoxy and it is this group that forms an integral part in the evolution of Protestantism. There was much more going on here then Gnosticism and religiously biased history has skipped over that fact.Whether we like it or not Albigensianism strongly affected the history of religion and many of her marks are still in our denominations today. Many of their ideas were central in the Protestant reformation and the Roman Catholic Franciscans were carbon copies (in many respects) of the Albigensians and the Waldensians.
Until someone can come up with an universally accepted term for these later Cathari that dwelled in this specific area then I do not think we should merge this article out of existance.
Hopefully the Albigensian article can be cleaned up and added to. If time permits I will attempt this in the near future. ===CDW
- I think that would work well. Note that in searches, there have been references to Cathar, Cathars, Catharist, Cathari... oy! -- April
- I do not think the Albigensian artical should be merged with the Cathar article. Please click on 3 below for more comment on this. C.D.W. **
Look, the distinction between Cath & Albi is in your head, really. I looked in EB2006: "From the 1140s the Cathari were an organized church with a hierarchy, a liturgy, and a system of doctrine. About 1149 the first established himself in the north of France; a few years later he established colleagues at Albi and in Lombardy." That's all that means. First Cathars settled in Albi. Coontie 04:16, 22 April 2006 (UTC)