A million Turks in France, 100,000 in Egypt, 50,000 in Kosovo, 2 million in Algeria........
is anyone supposed to actually take any of this seriously? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 31.146.35.112 (talk) 18:44, 28 May 2012 (UTC)
- What exactly makes these estimates crazy? They are all sourced; in fact, many of these estimates have been double/triple sourced.Turco85 (Talk) 19:32, 28 May 2012 (UTC)
- most of them aren't even proper sources.
- well i just looked at Kosovo, for example, and the source is talking about 50,000 Mesketian Turks in Kyrgyzstan, not Kosovo! HA HA. And the other link is broken. So, are you going to correct your mistake? Seeing as you claim to have written this whole article, you must have put that info in to? Gonna own up?
- I think you are getting yourself confused. Kosovo's sources are footnote 60 & 59 not 60 & 61. The sources for Kyrgyzstan are footnotes 44 & 61. Hence, no mistakes have been made, it seems as though you have misunderstood the citation process. Turco85 (Talk) 09:55, 30 May 2012 (UTC)
The given number for Bulgaria is of the Muslim population, not of the turks, who are about 400000-500000. The rest of us are Bulgarian, who speak Bulgarian (some also understand Turkish, but personally I don't know it) and even follow some Bulgarian non-religious traditions. I have respect to the turks I know, but my people and I don't want to be counted as such, especially if with this, we're related somehow to the imperialist Ottoman empire, so please diminish the number down!
82.46.239.160 (talk) 22:11, 26 November 2012 (UTC) Kubrat Gadjanov (this is my real name, not account)
- we base our content on what reliable published sources say. do you have sources that indicate different numbers? -- TRPoD aka The Red Pen of Doom 22:14, 26 November 2012 (UTC)
- What reliable source does exactly show 800000 turks in Bulgaria? In the last census in 2011 they were about 550000 (check exactly how many, can't remember). I'll also emphasize to you that during it, there were people from the town, who came to my grandparent's village near Omortag to agitate the Muslims to call themselves Turkish, although the village is mixed (there are also Christians, who btw treat us much better than the Ottomans Muslims did in the past) and all the people are Bulgarians. So I think even this number of 550000 may be overrated. Simply said - please, stop counting us as your reaya and diminish this number of 800000. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 82.46.239.160 (talk) 23:04, 26 November 2012 (UTC)
Can contributor 31.146.35.112 please stop reverting my edits. I am in the process of trying to improve this article by using wiki's guidelines. Please read the following:
Have a look at other ethnic articles such as Greeks (which actually has good article status, unlike here) to see the size of the paragraphs. Turco85 (Talk) 09:39, 31 May 2012 (UTC)
- I simply restored information you deleted (which contradicted information you inserted) on etymology - and YOU reverted ME. Now, how does that make sense? 31.146.35.112 (talk) 06:34, 1 June 2012 (UTC)
- I have removed some of the information I had prevously written because the article was getting far too long. Nonetheless, you are not actually "restoring" the information I removed to exact past... especially since you are removing any mention of "Seljuk Turks" and replacing it with "Seljuk-Persian". Yes the Seljuk Turks were influenced by the Persian culture, but this article is about the Turks; hence, removing the term "Seljuk Turks" seems politically motivated. One must remember that this article is about an ethnicity not empires. This article should only be dealing with Turks who lived in the Seljuk, Beylik, Otttoman periods rather than being about the empires itself which had many ethnic groups within its borders. Do you understand where you seem to be going beyond the scope of this articles purpose? Turco85 (Talk) 22:04, 1 June 2012 (UTC)
- Furthermore, your edits are not supported by what the citations actually say whereas the version of the article I have written actually does correspond with the sources.Turco85 (Talk) 22:06, 1 June 2012 (UTC)
- You're confusing the reader by your omissions. First, your putting forward your preferred etymology of the word "Turk", despite there being numerous theories as to its origin. Second, your version of the article implies that the "Turks" of the Seljuq Empire are synonymous with the Turks of today's Republic of Turkey - which of course is not true. Third, your version has inserted a politicized paragraph that argues that the native Anatolians somehow preferred the Seljuq rulers to the Byzantines - maybe that's true, maybe it isn't, but that's a argument not suited to such an article.
- More importantly, you position here seems to be "Only I am allowed to edit this article, and I am just going to automatically revert anyone else who attempts to contribute". I'm sorry, but that's just bollocks. 31.146.35.112 (talk) 06:22, 3 June 2012 (UTC)
Your edits conflict with what the sources actually say; simple as that. You have in no way justified your edits nor have you shown any citations to support your arguments. Until you actually follow the wiki policies and learn to work together, you wont be taken seriously by me.Turco85 (Talk) 22:50, 5 June 2012 (UTC)
- That's because you have deleted all the other sources in your version; simple as that. 31.146.35.112 (talk) 05:24, 6 June 2012 (UTC)
My "position" is to only illustrate what the sources say. Here is a wide range of citations for you to read:
Stavrianos, Leften Stavros (2000), The Balkans Since 1453, C. Hurst & Co. Publishers, p. 34, ISBN 1850655510.
The Seljuk Turks…above all…broke the traditional frontier of Asia Minor along the Taurus Mountains. They accomplished this when they defeated the Byzantine army in the fateful battle of Manzikert in 1071. This victory proved a turning point in the history of Asia Minor. Large numbers of Turkish settlers migrated northward in the wake of their victorious soldiers, and the native Anatolian population gradually lost its thin veneer of Greek culture. Between the eleventh and thirteen centuries the larger part of Anatolia was transformed from a Greek and Christian to a Turkish and Moslem region, and it remains to the present.
Federal Research Division (2004), Turkey: A Country Study, Kessinger Publishing, p. 27, ISBN 1419191268.
…to exert its authority directly in Anatolia. The gazis carved out a number of states there, under the nominal suzerainty of Baghdad, states that were continually reinforced by further Turkish immigration. The strongest of these states to emerge was the Seljuk sultanate of Rum which had its capital at Konya… The society and economy of the Anatolia countryside were unchanged by the Seljuks, who had simply replaced Byzantine officials with a new elite that was Turkish and Muslim. Conversion to Islam and the imposition of the language, mores, and customs of the Turks progressed steadily in the countryside, facilitated by intermarriage.
Masters, Bruce (2010), "Turkey", in Ágoston, Gábor; Masters, Bruce Alan (eds.), Encyclopedia of the Ottoman Empire, Infobase Publishing, p. 574, ISBN 1438110251.
With the victory of the Seljuk Turks over the Byzantines at the Battle of Manzikert in 1089, Turkish-speaking tribal peoples increasingly settled the region that had formerly been inhabited by Greek-speaking and Armenian-speaking Christians.
Darke, Diana (2011), Eastern Turkey, Bradt Travel Guides, p. 16, ISBN 1841623393.
The Turkish language and Islam were introduced and gradually spread over the region and the slow transition from a predominantly Christian and Greek-speaking Anatolia to a predominantly Muslim and Turkish-speaking one was underway.
Duiker, William J.; Spielvogel, Jackson J. (2012), World History, Cengage Learning, p. 192, ISBN 1111831653.
The Seljuk Turks were a nomadic people from Central Asia who had converted to Islam and flourished as military mercenaries for the Abbasid caliphate, where they were known for their ability as mounted archers. Moving gradually into Persia and Armenia as the Abbasids wakened, the Seljuk Turks grew in number until by the eleventh century, they were able to occupy the eastern provinces of the Abbasid Empire.
Campbell, Verity (2007), Turkey, Lonely Planet, p. 47, ISBN 1741045568.
…the Turks are the descendants of the assorted Central Asian tribal groupings, including the Seljuks, Huns, and the nomadic Oguz. Although academics believe the Turkic languages may have been spoken as early as 600 BC, the Turks definitively first appeared in medieval Chinese sources as the Tujue (or Turks) in the 6th-century Mongolia and Siberia. As they moved westwards they encountered the Arabs and converted to Islam. The Seljuks became Anatolia’s first Turkic empire. It’s believed that as news of Seljuk conquests and expansions spread, other nomadic Turkic people moved into Anatolia.
Waldman, Carl; Mason, Catherine (2006), Encyclopedia of European Peoples, Infobase Publishing, p. 806, ISBN 1438129181.
At the beginning of the 11th century the Seljuk Turks began consolidating their power. The Seljuk’s were Oguz Turks, related to the Turkic peoples known as Torks who has migrated to eastern Europe. The Seljuk’s had been employed as mercenaries by the Abbasids, and Arabic dynasty, but eventually rebelled. They conquered both present-day Iran and Iraq, entering Bagdad in 1055, and overran Syria. In 1071 the Seljuks defeated the Byzantines of the Eastern Roman Empire at the Battle of Manzikert, after which waves of Oguz tribesmen settled in Asia Minor; they eventually occupied most of it and conquered surrounding areas as well.
Baker, Mona; Saldanha, Gabriela (2008), Routledge Encyclopedia of Translation Studies, Routledge, p. 550, ISBN 0415369304.
The Turkish language was introduced into Asia Minor/Anatolia by the Seljuk Turks in the eleventh century…
Bainbridge, James (2009), Turkey, Lonely Planet, p. 33, ISBN 174104927X.
During centuries of Byzantine waxing and waning, a nomadic people, the Turks, had moved ever-westward out of Central Asia. En route the Turks encountered the Arabs and converted to Islam. Vigorous and martial by nature, the Turks assumed control of parts of the moribund Abbasid Empire, and built an empire of their own centred on Persia. Tugrul, of the Turkish Seljuk clan, took the title of sultan in Baghdad, and from there the Seljuks began raiding Byzantine territory… the Seljuk legacy persisted in Anatolia in the Sultante of Rum, centred on Konya. Although ethnically Turkish, the Seljuks were purveyors of Persian culture and art.
Kia, Mehrdad (2011), Daily Life in the Ottoman Empire, ABC-CLIO, p. 1, ISBN 0313064024.
Turcoman tribes had been settling in Anatolia since 1071, when the Seljuk Turks defeated the Greek Byzantine Empire at the battle of Manzikert. The victory at Manzikert destroyed Byzantine defences and allowed Turcoman tribesmen from Central Asia and Iran to push westward and settle in Anatolia.
Turco85 (Talk) 11:29, 6 June 2012 (UTC)
- And could you please tell me where any of those sources contradicts any of the edits I have made? 31.146.35.112 (talk) 12:06, 6 June 2012 (UTC)
- You are removing all the mentions of Seljuk Turks (e.g. removing Seljuk Turks from the "see also" template) and replacing it with Turco-Persian. The sources do not say anything about the Seljuk Turks being Turco-Persians. This article is not about the Seljuk Empire, it is about the Turks and hence would include the Turks who were within the Seljuk empire. If you have no objections to the sources above, why an earth are you changing the article to this? Turco85 (Talk) 12:13, 6 June 2012 (UTC)
- Yes, you've stated that before, and I've stated my disagreement. Unfortunately for you, I am supported by reliable scholarship - you are not. Just look at what the Encyclopedia Britannica has to say (that's an encylopedia, not Lonely Planet or whatever other stuff you've found on Google):
- Seljuq, also spelled Seljuk, ruling military family of the Oğuz (Ghuzz) Turkmen tribes that invaded southwestern Asia in the 11th century and eventually founded an empire that included Mesopotamia, Syria, Palestine, and most of Iran. Their advance marked the beginning of Turkish power in the Middle East.
- Persian cultural autonomy flourished in the Seljuq empire. Because the Turkish Seljuqs had no Islamic tradition or strong literary heritage of their own, they adopted the cultural language of their Persian instructors in Islam.
- - http://www.britannica.com/EBchecked/topic/533602/Seljuq
- You can also look to the numerous references provided in the main Seljuq dynasty article on Wikipedia:
- Hottinger, Arnold, The Arabs, (University of California Press, 1963), 90; "..and for these Turko-persian Seljuks who now ruled the largest Islamic state..."
- Grousset, Rene, The Empire of the Steppes, (Rutgers University Press, 1991), 161,164; "..renewed the Seljuk attempt to found a great Turko-Persian empire in eastern Iran..", "It is to be noted that the Seljuks, those Turkomans who became sultans of Persia, did not Turkify Persia-no doubt because they did not wish to do so. On the contrary, it was they who voluntarily became Persians and who, in the manner of the great old Sassanid kings, strove to protect the Iranian populations from the plundering of Ghuzz bands and save Iranian culture from the Turkoman menace."
- Nishapuri, Zahir al-Din Nishapuri (2001), “The History of the Seljuq Turks from the Jami’ al-Tawarikh: An Ilkhanid Adaptation of the Saljuq-nama of Zahir al-Din Nishapuri,” Partial tr. K.A. Luther, ed. C.E. Bosworth, Richmond, UK. K.A. Luther: "... the Turks were illiteratre and uncultivated when they arrived in Khurasan and had to depend on Iranian scribes, poets, jurists and theologians to man the institution of the Empire”(pg 9)
- Jackson, P. (2002). "Review: The History of the Seljuq Turks: The History of the Seljuq Turks". Journal of Islamic Studies 2002 13(1):75–76; doi:10.1093/jis/13.1.75.Oxford Centre for Islamic Studies.
- Bosworth, C. E. (2001). "Notes on Some Turkish Names" in Abu 'l-Fadl Bayhaqi's Tarikh-i Mas'udi. Oriens, Vol. 36, 2001 (2001), pp. 299–313.
- Dani, A. H., Masson, V. M. (Eds), Asimova, M. S. (Eds), Litvinsky, B. A. (Eds), Boaworth, C. E. (Eds). (1999). History of Civilizations of Central Asia. Motilal Banarsidass Publishers (Pvt. Ltd).
- Hancock, I. (2006). On Romani Origins and Identity. The Romani Archives and Documentation Center. The University of Texas at Austin.
- Asimov, M. S., Bosworth, C. E. (eds.). (1998). History of Civilizations of Central Asia, Vol. IV: The Age of Achievement: AD 750 to the End of the Fifteenth Century, Part One: The Historical, Social and Economic Setting. Multiple History Series. Paris: UNESCO Publishing.
Thanks for playing. - 31.146.35.112 (talk) 12:42, 6 June 2012 (UTC)
- Thanks for playing what? Is this a game to you? Because some of us take editing articles on wikipedia very seriously. All you have done is listed a bibliography here, no quotations with that list, nor any page numbers...
- Ummm..... trying reading again... 31.146.35.112 (talk) 13:49, 6 June 2012 (UTC)
Since you find Britanica so reliable compared to all the other sources, here is what it says:
- Britannica (2012), Anatolia, Encyclopædia Britannica. Encyclopædia Britannica Online, p. 17.
By diverting their aggressions into Anatolia, the sultans prevented depredations in Muslim territories, increased their own power against the Byzantine Empire, and provided land and livelihood for the Turkmen warriors... Anatolia was subjected to periodic Turkmen raids for nearly 30 years, some reaching as far west as Sivas (Sebastea) and Konya (Iconium). These offensives culminated in the decisive Battle of Manzikert north of Lake Van on Aug. 26, 1071, in which the Turkmen forces under Alp-Arslan vanquished the Byzantine army and captured the emperor Romanus IV Diogenes. With the frontier completely shattered, the Turkmens were able to range over most of Anatolia virtually at will.
- Unless you actually come up with a valid reason as well as sources to back up your views, your argument is not proving to be valid. I have no problem with the paragraph mentioning that the Seljuk Turks' culture was influenced by the Persian, because that is a fact. But the idea of removing the term "Seljuk Turks" in an article about the Turks seems utterly absurd. Furthermore, I should point out, we should be focusing on the Seljuk Turks who actually arrived in Anatolia rather than, what you seem to be doing, focusing on the ones in which stayed in Persia. The paragraph cannot be talking about the period of Khurasan after we have mentioned the Battle of Mazikert because it would not make sense chronologically. Turco85 (Talk) 13:34, 6 June 2012 (UTC)
- Again, how does any of that contradict my edits????? I didn't delete any use of the "Seljuk Turks" term, I simply removed that terminology from the opening two paragraphs, because it's outdated. Nowadays we use "Seljuqs" or "Saljuq Dynasty".
- And so now you admit they were a Turco-Persian dynasty, that used the Persian language.... so what specific problems do you actually have with my edits? Other than the fact that I had the temerity to tamper with your pet, and improve on your rather clumsy English? 31.146.35.112 (talk) 13:49, 6 June 2012 (UTC)
- I'm not sure whether you are genuinely misunderstanding me or not. This article is not about the dynasty. i.e. the paragraph is not meant to be an explanation of the Seljuk Empire, it is meant to be a paragraph about the Turks who lived within it. I have not got any objections in stating that they were influenced by the Persians. But saying Turco-Persians is not correct at all. They were not Turco-Persians, they were merely Turks who had been influenced by the Persians. There is a big difference between what you have been writing and the actual reality. And like I said before, within the Seljuks ear section, we are focusing on the Turks after the Battle of Manzikert because that is when the Turkish-speaking migration to Anatolia really began, as the overwhelming sources above illustrate. Turco85 (Talk) 14:06, 6 June 2012 (UTC)
- If you don't personally believe they were Turco-Persian, take it up with the academics I listed above (and the authors of the Wiki article on the Seljuqs) - they are precisely the type of Persianate (read: Central Asian Islamic) people for which the term "Turco-Persian" was invented. But please, don't try and alter history for your own narrative purposes. 31.146.35.112 (talk) 14:11, 6 June 2012 (UTC)
- I'm starting to think that you are just trying to take the piss here! I am going by what the sources say, and it is you who keeps on making up your own views about so many articles relating to the Turks. Gosh, it's so obvious that you are yet another sockpuppet of User:Ledenierhomme and I've had enough. Let me direct you to a book which is probably suited to someone like yourself:
- Davis, Craig S. (2011), The Middle East For Dummies, John Wiley & Sons, ISBN 1118053931.
- Whatever you say kid. Here's some more reading material for you, that talks about Turco-Persian societies:
- Josef W. Meri, Medieval Islamic Civilization: An Encyclopedia, Routledge, 2005, p. 399
- Michael Mandelbaum, Central Asia and the World, Council on Foreign Relations (May 1994), p. 79
- Jonathan Dewald, Europe 1450 to 1789: Encyclopedia of the Early Modern World, Charles Scribner's Sons, 2004, p. 24: "Turcoman armies coming from the East had driven the Byzantines out of much of Asia Minor and established the Persianized sultanate of the Seljuks."
- Ram Rahul. March of Central Asia, Indus Publishing, page 124.
- C.E. Bosworth, "Turkish expansion towards the west", in UNESCO History of Humanity, Volume IV, 2000.
- Mehmed Fuad Koprulu, Early Mystics in Turkish Literature, Translated by Gary Leiser and Robert Dankoff, Routledge, 2006, pg 149.
- O.Özgündenli, "Persian Manuscripts in Ottoman and Modern Turkish Libraries", Encyclopaedia Iranica, Online Edition, (LINK)
- http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Turco-Persian
- http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Persianate_society
- - — Preceding unsigned comment added by 31.146.35.112 (talk) 14:24, 6 June 2012 (UTC)
- Well I just checked Jonathan Dewald (2004) and did not find such a quote on page 24. Moreover, trying to direct me to other wiki articles means nothing. In fact, it seems that all you have done is copy-pasted the references and notes from those articles. Why don't you try and find citations with the quotation and page number yourself and place them on this talk page? Turco85 (Talk) 14:30, 6 June 2012 (UTC)
- Wasn't difficult. http://books.google.ge/books?id=CIYYAAAAIAAJ&q=%22Turcoman+armies+coming+from+the+East+had+driven+the+Byzantines+out+of+much+of+Asia+Minor+and+established+the+Persianized+sultanate+of+the+Seljuks.%22&dq=%22Turcoman+armies+coming+from+the+East+had+driven+the+Byzantines+out+of+much+of+Asia+Minor+and+established+the+Persianized+sultanate+of+the+Seljuks.%22&hl=en&sa=X&ei=M2rPT-CMKo3O4QTi6OWIDA&redir_esc=y 31.146.35.112 (talk) 14:53, 6 June 2012 (UTC)
- Well that's page 80, not page 24, so you can't expect me to find the quotations if you are giving me wrong page numbers. Would you be willing to compromise if we place the article back to the version which I have previously reverted it to, but including in the first sentence that it was "Persianized"? Because so far our discussion has not resolved anything. You seem to still be arguing about an entire empire whilst I'm trying to write an article about the Turkish people, because if you have not realised that is what this article is called. Turco85 (Talk) 15:48, 6 June 2012 (UTC)
I though I was a "sockpuppet" Ledenierhomme? Why would you want to compromise with a sockpuppet?
In all this huff and puff, you've yet to point out, specifically, what is wrong with my edits. What specific changes, specifically, are problematic for you? Can you quote something from the article that I inserted, that you believe to be factually incorrect? 31.146.35.112 (talk) 17:01, 6 June 2012 (UTC)
- Yes I do believe that you are a sockpuppet of User:Ledenierhomme, and if not of that user, or some of user who has been at wikipedia for a while. I doubt very much that these last few days have been your first here. Nonetheless, I'll compromise not because I want to "get on with you" but because you actually provided a source (shocking right!, well that's how wikipedia actually works...). What is incorrect is the simple fact that you have removed "Seljuk Turks" from the template above the heading, where it currently says "Main article: Great Seljuq Empire", and have removed the word "Turks" in the majority of sentences. For example, "The Seljuks were originally a nomadic people from Central Asia" whilst the sources actually say "The Seljuks Turks were originally a nomadic people from Central Asia". Turco85 (Talk) 18:15, 6 June 2012 (UTC)
- There, I have clarified in the opening that the Seljuqs were originally a Turkic nomadic people from Central Asia. It should be abundantly clear now to any reader. If you have any other objections to my edits, please raise them here before deleting them for the 10th time. Thanks. Whatisgeorgianwhatisgood (talk) 15:17, 11 June 2012 (UTC)
- There are almost a dozen sources listed above, many with page numbers. The fact that you are unable to verify them immediately via Google (although I did with the one you contested) is irrelevant. Wikipedia, I gather, is not deisnged to be a repository of information that is already online - but a repository of encylopedic information full-stop. A "temple of knowledge" I believe I've seen the founder on TV say.
- And yes, this is me the IP, I am back. You got me blocked because I was apparently on an "open proxy" (which I wasn't, but I realize now why the User:Alison may have thought so, and I have made the necessary changes to my dial-up settings). Whatisgeorgianwhatisgood (talk) 15:08, 11 June 2012 (UTC)
You were not blocked for simply being an "open proxy" you were blocked for your continuous disruption to this article. Rather than actually helping to improve this article you have tried to take control of its entire content by adding words/sentences which the citations do not support and removing words/sentences which are actually supported by the references.Turco85 (Talk) 23:26, 11 June 2012 (UTC)
- I don't think there is any controversy in saying that Anatolian Seljuks being Turko-Persians. I would think that a middle ground could have been found. AverageTurkishJoe (talk) 02:10, 28 August 2012 (UTC)
The Turks came to Anatolia (where they still live) much before Xth Century. The first Turkish peoples (or tribes) to form part of the Eastern Roman (Byzantine if you wish) Empire and to fight in its armies mostly turned to Christianity and after the islamisation of the bulk of the Turkish immigration into Anatolia, either disappeared within the Christian society (some of them) or were converted to islam (most of them) and their previous existence in Rome (Anatolia) mostly forgotten.
One reason the Turks won the Manzikert War easily is the fact that many Turkish tribes, who were within the Byzantine army ranks, changed sides when they realized that the "enemy" they were fighting against was their own kins. (Some of those Christian Turks survive in Moldovia, the Balkans end elsewhere under the name of Gagauz.
I wish to attract attention to the article Bardanis o Toupkos or "Bardanes the Turk", about an Armenian general of the Byzantine army who served between 895-903 as Commander of the Anatolian Army for the Empire. In other words, even by then (as early as the end of IXth Century) the so-called Armenian plateau (today part of Eastern Anatolia Region of Turkey) was known as a place associated with the Turkish people, who dwelled in that area, and had such a strong presence to outname the Armenians who claim to be contemporaries of Noah at times...
I hope this information may be useful to develop the contents of the Turkish people article. --E4024 (talk) 21:57, 14 July 2012 (UTC)
- Can you provide some sources to support your theory? Turco85 (Talk) 12:58, 15 July 2012 (UTC)
I have no theories of my own but many Turkish history books (not the textbooks you read at school that make us hate history) confirm the presence of Turks in Anatolia before Manzikert. Manzikert is only a milestone in the changing of the political geography of Turkey. If you are interested in the presence of Turkish soldiers (therefore their families, in short Turkish colonies) in Rome (or Byzantium if you like) at the time of Manzikert and before, begin by reading the first sentence of the article Turcopole in this WP. — Preceding unsigned comment added by E4024 (talk • contribs) 13:51, 15 July 2012 (UTC)
- Ok, well would you be able to help by listing some of these sources please? I'll try look into it in more depth as well. Turco85 (Talk) 14:59, 15 July 2012 (UTC)
Religion
It was changed from this:
Predominantly Hanafi Sunni Islam, minority Alevism
To this:
Predominantly: Sunni Islam, minority: Shia Islam (Alevi), Christianity, Judaism, Atheism, Agnosticism
The original version is both simpler and more precise:
- Very few Turks are explicitly atheist or agnostic by percentage. And neither atheism nor agnosticism are religions.
- An even smaller minority are Christian, whereas Judaism is an ethnic religion.
- Turks are almost uniformly Hanafi when they are Sunni and Alevi when they are Shia.
Related ethnic groups
From this:
Turkic peoples
To this:
Ancient Anatolians, Balkan people, Turkic peoples
Now, I am not against a genetics section in this article, but editors mustn't overstate its relevance:
Mttll (talk) 05:12, 3 November 2012 (UTC)
- Anatolians' language got extinct, but the people themselves did not go extinct. A map from 1880's does not prove your argument. Ethnicity is not just about language. Are people from Congo related to French, just because they speak French? Cavann (talk) 16:22, 3 November 2012 (UTC)
- Once again, Turks had no contact with ancient Anatolians. By the time Turks arrived in Anatolia, they had become Armenians, Greeks etc. Can you quote one scholar that says Turks are ethnically related to Armenians or Greeks? Also, can you quote one scholar that says Turks don't speak Turkish as an ancestral language like the French speak French but instead perceive it as a foreign language imposed by colonial overlords as in the case of the Congolose and French? Get real. --Mttll (talk) 21:52, 3 November 2012 (UTC)
- And I posted that French map from 1880 so that people wouldn't complain about pan-Turkist propaganda. Here are some others:
- Mttll (talk) 22:10, 3 November 2012 (UTC)
- Yes we are closer to Greeks and Armenians, than to Central Asians. That's what genetic studies show. For you, everything seems to be about language. Are Mexican people Spanish? Are Congolese people French?
- In any case, this discussion is irrelevant, because what matters to Wikipedia is not our personal opinions, but sources. And I sourced what I put into the infobox. So do not delete it based on your personal opinions or on your subjective interpretation of old maps. Cavann (talk) 22:48, 3 November 2012 (UTC)
- I asked you to quote a scholar, not to express your personal opinion. You are the one introducing original research into the article by overstating the relevance of genetics. --Mttll (talk) 23:08, 3 November 2012 (UTC)
- The source is already there: Yardumian, A., & Schurr, T. G. (2011). Who Are the Anatolian Turks?. Anthropology & Archeology Of Eurasia, 50(1), 6-42. doi:10.2753/AAE1061-1959500101. Here's the abstract:
“ |
Due to its long-term geographic position as gateway between Europe and
Asia, the genetic constitution of Anatolia is highly complex. In spite of its
overwhelming diversity, most citizens of the Republic of Turkey are firstlanguage
Turkish-speakers and consider themselves ethnic Turks. This was not
the case during the early Middle Ages and the time of the Byzantine Empire.
Although we are able to identify four successive Turkic empires, Islamicization,
and post–World War I nationalization as the essential steps toward
ethnic homogenization, from historical texts alone we cannot determine to
what extent mass migration from Central Asia and Siberia is responsible for
Turkish dominance in Anatolia today. To assess the extent of gene flow from
lands east of the Caspian, we examined the patterns of genetic variation in
Turkic-speaking populations from Anatolia to Siberia. This analysis allows
us to build the case for incommensurable, long-term, and continuing genetic
signatures in both Anatolia and Siberia, and for significant mitochondrial
DNA and Y-chromosome divergence between the regions, with minimal
admixture. We supplement the case against mass migration with correlative
archeological, historical, and linguistic data, and suggest that it was irregular
punctuated migration events that engendered large-scale shifts in language
and culture among Anatolia’s diverse autochthonous inhabitants. |
” |
Cavann (talk) 18:52, 4 November 2012 (UTC)
- Can you read at all? This very source itself explicitly contrasts genetics against native language and ethnic identity:
Due to its long-term geographic position as gateway between Europe and Asia, the genetic constitution of Anatolia is highly complex. In spite of its overwhelming diversity, most citizens of the Republic of Turkey are first language Turkish-speakers and consider themselves ethnic Turks.
- Mttll (talk) 19:44, 4 November 2012 (UTC)
- Yes, can you read at all? "We supplement the case against mass migration with correlative archeological, historical, and linguistic data, and suggest that it was irregular punctuated migration events that engendered large-scale shifts in language and culture among Anatolia’s diverse autochthonous inhabitants"
- Where's your source that says Turks are only related to Turkic people? Cavann (talk) 23:09, 4 November 2012 (UTC)
- If you want we can delete everything there. Not all ethnicity articles have a field for related ethnic groups. But if Turkic people is gonna stay, so should Ancient Anatolians. And not all Central Asian people may see themselves as being related to Turks. A possible example: if you look at the article Kazakhs, it only lists "Nogais, Karakalpaks." Cavann (talk) 23:20, 4 November 2012 (UTC)
- It's perfectly clear that the source you posted says Turks may be genetically related to pre-Turkish Anatolians despite not being linguistically or ethnically related. Now, let's take a look at what scholarly sources says Turks are ethnically related to.
- Search results for Turks "ethnically related" in Google Books: (Link)
The Uygurs are themselves Turkic and ethnically related closely to the Turks of Turkey.
The 10 million natives of Xinjiang are ethnically related to Turks and Kazakhs, and are predominantly Muslim.
Bosnians are Slavs; Turks are an Altaic people. Bosnians are ethnically related to Russians and Czechs; Turks are ethnic relatives of such as the Uyghurs.
March, the Turkish parliament voted ... ethnically related Turkmen minority and in preventing the Kurds there from establishing their own state, which Turkey feared ...
Turkey managed also to develop close relations with its ethnically related Asian Turkic peoples, seemingly without ...
Azerbaijanis ... They are ethnically related to the Turks.
- Using the same results from Google Books, who are Turks not ethnically related to? Let's see:
Kurdish is related to Persian. Historically, Persia has been closely associated with the Kurds, who are ethnically related to the Persians, but ethnically distinct from the Arabs and Turks.
The island of Cyprus, strategically located near the mainland of Turkey, is divided between two major population groups, those ethnically related to the Greeks and those ethnically related to the Turks.
By assisting the national liberation movement of the culturally and ethnically related Balkan peoples, the Russians were in a strong position to push the Turks back in this area.
- Results for Turks "ethnically related in Google Scholar: (Link)
The second group included the Crimean Tatars and Karapapaks, speakers of an Eastern Anatolian dialect, were welcome since they were ethnically related to the Turks.
... most of whom are religiously Islamic and ethnically Turkic-that is to say, they speak a range of related languages, such as Uzbek and Kazakh, of which Turkish is only the westernmost example. Today the Central Asian nations and the giant and ethnically related Xinjiang Uighur ...
- Again, it seems quite clear what being ethnically related means in general, or who Turks are ethnically related to, in the academic community, or in the rest of the world, for that matter. Wikipedia editors don't have the right to express their personal interpretation of things in the articles against an overwhelming body of verifiable sources. --Mttll (talk) 01:25, 5 November 2012 (UTC)
- Don't spam with random incoherent quotes. I have sourced what I put into the infobox. See: Wikipedia:Core content policies, especially Wikipedia:Verifiability. If you need help with what sources to use, ask an admin. Ethnic group does not simply mean linguistic group, it may also mean ancestry. This is all I will say. I do not have the time to read random quotes from Google, especially considering that I did not remove Turkic people from the list. Cavann (talk) 01:37, 5 November 2012 (UTC)
- The quotes I posted are only perfectly coherent and yes, they are certainly numerous, but I am not about to apologize for that. The source you put, on the other hand, talks about genetic connection despite lack of ethnic connection, in other words the complete opposite of what you claim it says. --Mttll (talk) 01:52, 5 November 2012 (UTC)
- In the end:
- The sources I posted say Turks are linguistically and ethnically related to other Turkic people as well as that Turks are not ethnically related to neighboring Balkan Slavs, Greeks or Kurds.
- The source you posted says Turks are genetically related to pre-Turkish Anatolians but not linguistically or ethnically.
- And if you read any anthropological source on this matter, you will see "ancestry" in this context means a common heritage passed down by generations. It's not something determined by tests on the Y-chromosome in genetic laboratories. No geneticists would claim such a thing either, it's just your attempt at WP:OR here. --Mttll (talk) 14:48, 5 November 2012 (UTC)
- By the way, having not heard any argument on religion part, I'm restoring the older version. --Mttll (talk) 20:11, 5 November 2012 (UTC)
- You quoted 3 texts without writing their sources (not everything in google is reliable) about whom Turks are not ethnically related to and they do not say what you say they do. Genetic studies are done to find out about ancestry. And I already said ethnicity is related with ancestry, although it is sometimes about culture and language too. That's why Anatolian people needs to stay along with Turkic peoples. And that's all I'm gonna say because you keep repeating yourself or say nonsensical stuff like no geneticist would claim they are talking about ancestry. Look up what ancestry means in dictionary. Cavann (talk) 20:47, 5 November 2012 (UTC)
- Correction: I quoted 11 different sources. The results I posted are not raw Google searches, they are from Google Books and Google Scholar. So they are published material. And I gave you the links.
- By the way, I just checked your other source which you put next to Balkan people in the infobox:
The present results suggest a common ancestry of all Balkan populations, including Aromuns, with a lack of correlation between genetic differentiation and language or ethnicity, stressing that no major migration barriers have existed in the making of the complex Balkan human puzzle.
- Once again, the source, by contrasting genetics against language and ethnicity, is saying the complete opposite of what you claim. Seriously, enough is enough with this dishonesty. --Mttll (talk) 21:35, 5 November 2012 (UTC)
- In short, geneticists say they find genetic connections between ethnically unrelated peoples. You claim this makes whom geneticists call ethnically unrelated, ethnically related.
- As for the word, ancestry, let me just quote a referenced passage from the Wikipedia article, Ethnic group:
At the level of "ethnies" or "ethnic communities", the members themselves have clear conceptions of being "a named human population with myths of common ancestry, shared historical memories, and one or more common elements of culture, including an association with a homeland, and some degree of solidarity, at least among the élites". That is, an ethnie is self-defined as a group, whereas ethnic categories are set up by outsiders whether or not their own members identify with the category given them.
- Mttll (talk) 21:56, 5 November 2012 (UTC)
Your quotes were incoherent. For example, how is this quote relevant? "By assisting the national liberation movement of the culturally and ethnically related Balkan peoples, the Russians were in a strong position to push the Turks back in this area."? How is that relevant to Turks and Anatolians? Where are the sources for individual quotes (eg: "Bosnians are Slavs; Turks are an Altaic people. Bosnians are ethnically related to Russians and Czechs; Turks are ethnic relatives of such as the Uyghurs.")?
As for words, from OED:
Ethnicity: 2 "Ethnic character or peculiarity."
Ethnic: 2a "Pertaining to race; peculiar to a race or nation; ethnological. Also, pertaining to or having common racial, cultural, religious, or linguistic characteristics, esp. designating a racial or other group within a larger system; hence (U.S. colloq.), foreign, exotic."
Ancestry: "1. The relation or condition of ancestors; progenitorship; ancestral lineage or descent. Hence, distinguished or ancient descent."
Lineage: 1c "A family or race viewed with reference to its descent; a tribe, clan. spec. in Cultural Anthropol., patri- or matrilineal descent within a social group traced from a single ancestor; also occas. the traditional line of descent for the handing down of skills and knowledge pertaining to a particular craft or profession."
Descent: 8a "A line of descent, lineage, race, stock."
In short, your insistence on only Turkic peoples seem to be WP:POV since ethnicity has several meanings. Therefore "ethnically related" will have several meanings too. Cavann (talk) 22:59, 5 November 2012 (UTC)
- That quote is relevant because it's telling how Russians were helping the national liberation movements of the ethnically related Balkan Slavs against Turkey in the 19th century. It highlights how outlandish your original research idea that Turks are ethnically related to Balkan Slavs. An affront to the most basic knowledge of history, really.
- The source for the second quote is Lies of Our Times (Sheridan Square Press, 1993). You can read the passage in Google; the 7th link in the 2nd page: Link.
- And no, we don't need to dissect the words and contemplate on their meanings when both of the sources you brought explicitly say they are finding the genetic connection of Turks to Balkan peoples and pre-Turkish Anatolians despite the lack of ethnic relation. Currently you have 0 sources that support your viewpoint. --Mttll (talk) 14:34, 6 November 2012 (UTC)
- We seem to be running in circles, feel free to ask for WP:DR
- You do not know what is a reliable source? "Lies of Our Times" seem to be a monthly magazine, . This is an example of how you cannot comprehend that everything you find in "Google scholar" may not be a reliable source and is certainly not comparable to peer-reviewed journal articles. Cavann (talk) 02:59, 7 November 2012 (UTC)
- The trouble is, you don't have peer reviewed sources supporting your viewpoint. I'm not quoting sources that Turkish people are linguistically related to other Turkic people and then argue here there must be ethnic relation as well. The sources I quote say Turks are linguistically and ethnically related to other Turkic people.
- You, on the other hand, quote sources that say Turkish people are genetically related to Balkan and pre-Turkish Anatolian people, but not linguistically or ethnically. Then you come here and argue by yourself genetic relation means ethnic relation as well despite the fact that the very sources you post explicitly say otherwise. --Mttll (talk) 09:14, 7 November 2012 (UTC)
- WP:DR Cavann (talk) 20:04, 7 November 2012 (UTC)
Ethnicity and genetics remind me of racism. I think culture, beginning with language, something with which we express and define our identity, is the key to the relationship between all the Turks or Turkic peoples if you wish. The article should be dealt with within these lines, too much discussion confuses everybody. --E4024 (talk) 11:53, 7 November 2012 (UTC)
- No one is saying ethnicity = genetics. But ethnic relatedness may mean more than linguistic relatedness. That's why I'm saying Turkic people SHOULD STAY ALONG WITH ANATOLIANS. If anyone disagrees, WP:DR is the next step. Cavann (talk) 20:04, 7 November 2012 (UTC)
- It seems to me you are the one who disagrees with the community. --E4024 (talk) 20:08, 7 November 2012 (UTC)
- More importantly, he disagrees with the sources he himself brought forward in the first place. --Mttll (talk) 23:10, 7 November 2012 (UTC)
- That's because you did not understand what the source says or what the source is. Cavann (talk) 21:22, 12 November 2012 (UTC)
Running out of arguments here, the editor, Cavann tries to endorse his POV in the infobox until a formal dispute resolution process: (Link).
Cavann, let me remind you Wikipedia is not a bureaucracy and that the first step of dispute resolution is getting a third opinion and the editor, E4024, was kind enough to offer his and it happens be contrary to your POV. --Mttll (talk) 10:29, 12 November 2012 (UTC)
- @Mttll: Will you please be so kind to clarify if third opinion of E4024 was offered after request for third opinion was submitted at appropriate page (link)?--Antidiskriminator (talk) 21:54, 12 November 2012 (UTC)
- No, it was his spontaneous contribution. --Mttll (talk) 09:24, 13 November 2012 (UTC)
- Thanks for your clarification. It was wrong to refer to the spontaneous contribution of E4024 as third opinion within DR process. --Antidiskriminator (talk) 21:11, 13 November 2012 (UTC)
- I requested more input at WikiProject Ethnic groups Cavann (talk) 21:22, 12 November 2012 (UTC)
- My comment here is based on the request for more input at WikiProject Ethnic groups. Template:Infobox ethnic group says that field for related ethnic groups should contain a "List of other ethnic groups related to the group". I am not expert in this field and my comment is only my honest opinion. I think that Balkan people and Ancient Anatolians do not belong to the list in the field for ethnic groups related to Turks because they don't share common cultural heritage, culture, language or dialect. Balkan people are not even an ethnic group.
- I fully understand that some editors can perceive being related in sense of common ancestry. Since Turks probably share common ancestry (but not common identity trough cultural heritage, culture, language or dialect) with long list of ethnic groups (including many ethnic groups from Balkan and also Ancient Anatolians) it would be probably impossible to summarize all of them within one infobox field. Since it is already explained in the main body of the article I don't see a particular need. --Antidiskriminator (talk) 21:11, 13 November 2012 (UTC)
- There is no "common identity trough cultural heritage and culture" with Turkey and most Turkic countries, eg: Tajikistan. Latter would share more with Afghanistan. If Turkish people are related to all Turkic peoples, are Indians related to Germans because they all speak Indo-European languages? Furthermore, if you look at French people, they included Celtic peoples due to Gallo-Roman ancestry. Cavann (talk) 22:34, 16 November 2012 (UTC)
- As I already showed in this page, various published sources identify Azeris, Kazakhs, Tatars, Turkmens, Uyghurs etc., in short, other Turkic peoples, as ethnically related to Turkish people. Wikipedia is a place to describe the world using reliable sources, not to "correct" it in spite of them. --Mttll (talk) 23:01, 16 November 2012 (UTC)
- 1) you need to source them individually. 2) I did not delete Turkic people from the list. Cavann (talk) 23:06, 16 November 2012 (UTC)
- 1) No, I don't. For example, this passage is more than enough:
Turks are an ethnolinguistic group living in a broad geographic expanse extending from southeastern Europe through Anatolia and the Caucasus Mountains and throughout Central Asia. Thus Turks include the Turks of Turkey, the Azeris of Azerbaijan, and the Kazakhs, Kyrgyz, Tatars, Turkmen, and Uzbeks of Central Asia, as well as many smaller groups in Asia speaking Turkic languages. (Encyclopedia of the Modern Middle East and North Africa)
- Encyclopedia.com is not a reliable source. This is why I do not want to debate with you. You do not even know what a reliable source is. Cavann (talk) 16:03, 17 November 2012 (UTC)
- How is a published encyclopedia not a reliable source? And if you don't want to debate me, you can try debating other two editors here who seem to agree with my position. --Mttll (talk) 18:17, 17 November 2012 (UTC)
- You are right, my mistake. I had thought you got it from a random .com website. In any case, as I said before, I did not remove Turkic people. Cavann (talk) 22:52, 22 November 2012 (UTC)
- The problem is, there isn't a source that ethnically lumps Turkish people together with Ancient Anatolians or Balkan peoples like Encyclopedia of Modern Middle East and North Africa does with other Turkic peoples. All you can provide is two sources that say Turks may be genetically related to the former two despite lack of ethnic and linguistic connection. The sources are against your position, the editor who offered his third opinion as a part of dispute resolution is against your position. It's time this ended. --Mttll (talk) 02:24, 24 November 2012 (UTC)
- 2) You are argued something as ridiculous as that Turks are related to other Turkic peoples in the same way the Congolese are related to the French. --Mttll (talk) 05:13, 17 November 2012 (UTC)
- Thank you for your contribution. Before Cavann reverted it, I had changed the Related ethnic groups tab to:
Other Turkic peoples, especially the Oghuz branch
- If we have reached a consensus here, I will be restoring this. --Mttll (talk) 20:31, 16 November 2012 (UTC)
- I agree with the above. BTW since when is Tajikistan Turkic? --E4024 (talk) 22:42, 16 November 2012 (UTC)
- Well, then let me answer my question myself: Maybe the reliable sources that Cavann use say that Tajikistan is a Turkic country... --E4024 (talk) 18:26, 17 November 2012 (UTC)
This is how User:Cavann behaves when the dispute resolution he initiates ends in his disfavor. --Mttll (talk) 22:55, 2 December 2012 (UTC)