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What do "Temple Names", "Personal Names", and "Era Names" mean? Please put some explanation somewhere, or at least link to it, since I don't really know what these are. And, this is a dynasty, who were the rulers during the dynasty - the "Personal Names"? If so, why not link all of them to individual articles? -- jheijmans
Linking them to individual articles was not done because of lacking a uniform format of naming convention. Now even with the standards set on Wikipedia talk:Naming conventions (chinese), articles are still titled at the writer discretion. Once the standards are agreed upon, those individual articles can then be started. User:kt2
In the table of rulers, "Shao di" and "Ai di" tell you to "see note below the table", yet there is no note? -- Jpta 19:41, 27 Feb 2004 (UTC)
how can there have been five centuries of military decline for a dynasty that only lasted for three centuries? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 62.252.128.13 (talk)
Tang Dynasty is also the name of a famous Chinese rock band. --sgfhk321
No mention of the Yulan magnoliaIts flowers were regarded as a symbol of purity in the Tang Dynasty and it was planted in the grounds of the Emperor's palace, shouldnt that be noted somewhere? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 206.176.103.66 (talk)
First, Li Shih-min did not claim the title of "T'ang T'ai-Tsung"; these "temple names" are conferred after emperors' deaths by the new emperor and court.
Second, Li Shih-min did not "kick out" his father. He passed it to him (although probably feeling pressured enough to amount as a "kick out"). However, there was no indication that Li Shih-min would've actually forced his father out. In fact, he appeared to be a dutiful son.
Third, to speak nothing of how Li Shih-min came to power is something of an outrage. The "coup" where he killed 2 of his brothers was surely one of the most important events in chinese history - allowed him to become emperor afterall, and probably the best there ever was. Although this rightfully and already belongs to another article. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Fukui (talk • contribs)
"The Emperor had three administrations (省, shěng): Military Affairs, Censorate, and Council of State. Each administration had its own job."
This sentence mixed up the three seniors of Han Dynasty with three shěng in Tang Dynasty.
The three seniors of Han led Military Affairs, Censorate, and Council of State.
The three shěng of Tang drafted policy, reviewed policy and implemented the policy. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 203.218.199.46 (talk)
I'm begging you! PLEASE tell me when the Dynasty started to when it ended. SHEESH!!
ok so i know cantonese people always refer to chinese people as ' tang ren'. i was talking to a guy from fujian who always did this too. i wasnt sure if it was just cantonese people that call chinese people tang ren or are there other chinese people who do this too such as fujian. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Chinoiserie (talk • contribs)
Uh, táng rén isn't Cantonese...it's Mandarin. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 69.22.248.78 (talk)
people who speak mandarin never refer to themselves as tang ren. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Chinoiserie (talk • contribs)
táng rén = 唐人 is of course related to the Tang dynasty, so I think there should be a reference in this article. Tang Wenlong (talk) 01:08, 30 April 2008 (UTC)
was cantonese the lingua franca of this era? —Preceding unsigned comment added by Chinoiserie (talk • contribs)
The Tang Dynasty was taken over by aliens. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 66.245.22.143 (talk)
Cantonese is at best a regional patois that happens to be famous becuase it was the language of the modern gatewate to China aka Hong Kong and Guandong. It definitely was not the common tongue of the Tang Dynasty as Guandong was something of a backwater at that time and the Tang Dynasty was based in Shaanxi which is pretty much on the opposite end of China from from Guandong. Also Mandarin or Putonghua is the lingua franca of China and has been since the Qin Dynasty, Putonghua litterally means Common Together Speach, so there you go.—Preceding unsigned comment added by 192.48.80.214 (talk)
you are all wrong. the lingua franca was ALWAYS the dialect of the region around the capital, which during tang was chang'an —Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.160.246.244 (talk) 06:24, 7 May 2008 (UTC)
The map on this article has gross errors; first of all, there was no Balhae (Bohai) in 660 CE. Secondly, Baekje didn't have any territories in Manchuria, it was Goguryeo that had expanded in Manchuria (so those two names are actually switched). Also, Balhae and Goguryeo did not co-exist at the same time. I don't know about other states in the map (Tibetan Empires, Gokturks, etc.), but there are lots of errors regarding the states I mentioned. I'm not good with photoshop (or MS paint), so If anyone would like to make a new map or make the changes, I think it would be great. I personally like maps made by Yeu Ninje, those maps are superb. Deiaemeth 05:51, 3 March 2006 (UTC)
Shouldn't some distinction be made between vassal and enemy states? --SohanDsouza 10:54, 15 May 2006 (UTC) ~~Well enemy states may become vassals and vice versa.
The vassals and borders changed considerably from generation to generation during the dynasty, and I talk of its powerful years not about the entire span of its history of course. This map is ambiguous and a bit amateur but aside from labelling and ambiguous simplicity, not outright wrong. Except for the SW border :DHeaven's knight 22:49, 9 December 2006 (UTC)
Korea nor Japan were Chinese tributaries at this time. Goguryeo waged war with the Tang Dynasty, and both Baekje, and Shilla were tributaries to Goguryeo. Shilla later broke its ties with Goguryeo, and launched an attack on Baekje. Later, a Shilla-Tang alliance was formed, and then the Shilla Imgeum (Sovereign) changed his title to Wang (King) to show Tang hegemony. Following the defeat of both Goguryeo and Baekje by the allied force of Shilla and Tang, Tang made an attempt to invade Shilla, but was repelled, breaking Shilla's tribute relations with Tang. Relations opened up again, but not tributary ones. The official title of the Shilla ruler was reverted to Imgeum during the war with Tang, according to Sam-guk-sa-gi.—Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.36.189.29 (talk)
"The article is too POV with statements of how Tang China stretched all over Asia to the middle east." it was that big you liar. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.160.246.244 (talk) 06:20, 7 May 2008 (UTC)
im warning you guys who keep messing with tang territory size, stop it right now. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 162.83.176.163 (talk) 20:15, 31 July 2008 (UTC)
im afraid your wrong. korea did pay heavy tribute to china during the ming dynasty.Historian of the arab people (talk) 02:01, 31 October 2008 (UTC)
the tang dynasty did stretch to the middle east, and did battle with the arabs im gonna expand on that.Historian of the arab people (talk) 02:03, 31 October 2008 (UTC)
the tang dynasty did battle in iraq, just like george bush did, when interfering in some dispute among the sassanids —Preceding unsigned comment added by 162.83.128.88 (talk) 07:33, 8 February 2009 (UTC)
Tang Dynasty should be part of Korean history as well, considering Tang held some territory inside of today's Korea. If China can claim on other ancient states as Chinese then Korea can do the same. --Korsentry 05:40, 13 February 2009 (UTC) —Preceding unsigned comment added by KoreanSentry (talk • contribs)
Gorguyeo is neither Korea or Chinese. The real Koreans today are descended from Chinese settlers/Sillia. T'ang ruled Korea until 755, and Korea remained a tributary until fall of Tang. Tang is not part of Korean history because Tang obviously ruled Korea as a conquerer/settler, and because modern Korean nation did not emerge until Goryeo. Tang, just like Han, Song(early), and Ming was world's strongest/richest/most advanced nation and was not concerned with KoreaTeeninvestor (talk) 00:26, 26 February 2009 (UTC)
This is my first post on Wikipedia, so please excuse any breaks of normal etiquette until I get used to the format.
Just a note: in the section entitled "20 Emperors of the Tang Dynasty," there's a small line after the table saying "The Tang Dynasty was a GREAT Success." I checked the history and apparently its been here since the original edit, back in 2002.
I originally wanted to delete it out entirely, but hesitated after seeing that it somehow survived over 4 years of edits. My problems with it:
Thoughts?
Jia 23:50, 12 April 2006 (UTC)
This really helps with homework! —Preceding unsigned comment added by 209.184.226.126 (talk) I'm in 6th grade and our reasources arnt to great. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 72.85.30.228 (talk)
The article is seriously, seriously messy. For god's sake, Tang dynasty is the most powerful dynasty in Chinese history (and one of the most documented one), even shorter than a mere school? It needs a very, very large expansion. There's a lot to talk about Tang dynasty - the history section alone should be larger than the whole article now. Then we'll have to talk about policies, emperors, relations with other cultures, etc. etc. To make matters worse, half the data here is wrong (see talk page comments above). The map is obviously exaggerated, the era names are inaccurate, and the external links section doesn't have a link. The header is actually the whole article except from a list. Would anyone want to do the expansion and cleanup? Thanks. Aranherunar 05:04, 20 August 2006 (UTC)
Well, you want to write a book, long long book :) Even Japanese version is way longer than this. When we talk about history, at least the topic should mention Chu Tang, Sheng Tang, Zhong Tang, Wan Tang(sorry don't know how to spell them in English). When we talk about culture, at lease Li Bai & Du Fu should be mentioned. On the other hand, parts of the article is too detailed. I mean the Imperial examination thing. I don't it is not import, but so much Imperial examination and not a single word about poem? the article needs a good structure before too much details are added.
and the name of the empress is still incorrect, she was not named zetian, her Posthumous name is not Wu Hou, it is much longer, any Empress whoes family named is Wu can be called Wu Hou.
As far as my edits to the article itself, I slightly touched on the article to clarify about the beginning of the decline, specifically with regards certain mentions of talas. Tang decline and subsequent withdrawal from the west is due to an shi rebellion, not a single frontier battle. It seems Talas tends to be overstated and fetishized. Still, I wonder where we shall put it then; by the same reasoning it seems rather too much to give it its own special link in related topics or what have you and yet I am reluctant to orphan it. I'm sure many of us can agree that the Tang dynasty deserves much better treatment than this and a greatly expanded article; little tidbits like Talas then would not be out of place there.Heaven's knight 22:59, 9 December 2006 (UTC)
Chill, not everything is some kind of evil nationalist conspiracy. The outer areas are ambiguously labelled, I agree. But no one seriously denies or 'forgets' the Tibetans when in discussion of Tang. I might insinuate that you yourself have 'forgotten' history; the Tibetans in fact captured the capital of Chang'an briefly once, but you do not divulge any mitigating circumstances but instead leave it at that.
What IS inaccurate about that map is the southwestern border; Tang control there was rather more, how shall we put it, receded than is shown. also the korean area is obviously mislabelled, as some have pointed out. We do need a better map Heaven's knight 22:49, 9 December 2006 (UTC)
That map on Tang dynasty is seriously misleading. The caption reads 'Tang Dynasty and its allied and conflicting states' - what the hell is that supposed to mean, when the map is coloured in such a way that it insinuates a Chinese preponderance in all the coloured areas? I wouldn't be saying this if that WAS the case, that Tang China DID exert various forms of control on all the coloured regions, but of course that is not the case. Nearly forgotten annals of the Tibetan empire at the time reveal a power that at one time threatened Chang-an itself, and of course various Korean states of Kogureyo (dunno how to spell that) and Silla were at odds against Tang China many times. I say someone strike down that map, because it was obviously made by an amateur and ignorant hand, or was made by an extreme sinophile such as Gavin Menezies quite willing to warp historical truth for China. -- 1tephania
---deleted this part because it had no details. "In 751, Chinese and Arab forces met in Turkestan. The Chinese force was routed." -intranetusa
To Zimriel. The article regarding the Battle of Talas River has been added. Have a link to that article. Intranetusa 01:22, 2 July 2007 (UTC)
I am an avid reader of Chinese Imperial history and would be interested to see some more detailed references for the article--specifically on the point about the Tang dynasty being the protector of Kashmir and apparently allied with Assam (based on the map). Could someone please provides some links to expound upon this or some more citations for those who would be interested (all the sites online pertaining to this appear to be linked to the article or directly copying it? I would be interested in reading more about it.Thank you.
It appears the request above has been here for quite some time, but no one has move forward to answer it. Is is safe to say then that the statement that kashmir was a vassal state of china was unsourced and that it is a candidate for deletion? I am avid reader of Tang history and genuinely appreciate their achievements; however, I am also concerned about accuracy, since we all want as many FA's as possible on wikipedia. I wanted to reach out to the main contributors to this article before deleting this statement myself. Are we in agreement that this is unsourced then? Please let me know.
Regards,
Devanampriya
I'm beginning to think the inner yellow area is a distorted Han map. The map overall suffers from enough distortions as it is. While the borders directly ruled by the Empire changed and some leeway can be assumed, the southwestern border is clearly extremely off, resembling a Han map, and on closer inspection the overall impression of the borders is Han. We really need a better mapHeaven's knight 22:52, 9 December 2006 (UTC)
In the section about the decline of the Tang, there is a sentence: "At the same time, natural causes such as droughts and famine due to internal corruptions and incompetent emperors contributed to the rise of a series of rebellions." This sentence is manifestly self-contradictory: how can droughts and famine be caused by corruption and incompetent governance? Is this a reflection of how people have lost faith in the divine Mandate of Heaven of the Tang emperors in their inability to curb natural disasters? Or did they bungle the post-disaster handling? Clearly, this section needs to be expounded on.
AcidFlask 06:09, 4 January 2007 (UTC)
This article is way too short and simplistic to be about Tang Dynasty. Even Encarta has about five pages solely devoted to it. I believe Wikipedia is one of the worst references when it comes to Chinese dynasties or Chinese history in general, because the contents are often short and has POV problems. Other prominent enyclopedias such as Encyclopædia Britannica has way more informations to say about it. --67.2.148.214 19:31, 4 September 2006 (UTC)
I agree Heaven's knight 22:43, 9 December 2006 (UTC)
Tanjahreeen 19:49, 29 April 2007 (UTC) The above image must be deleted or edited because its horribly incorrect. Paekche was never located above Goguryeo and Balhae didn't even exist at the time. Plus, it is way too POV. Only the yellow part should be colored in because I have never heard of a Chinese empire that controlled the middle east. Is this a joke or something to Korea? Its offending to see how Korean captions are messed up. Good friend100 00:37, 29 November 2006 (UTC)
Regarding the map of the Tang Dynasty, I reverted back to the original Tang_dynasty1.PNG picture. Gaogouli sent a tribute to Tang in 619 before the invasion of allied Tang-XinLuo (Silla) forces. United XinLuo after the demise of Goguryo effectively became a Tang vassal in 668. This should be addressed in the picture.
Tang also subdued the Western Turks for a while. The Map of Tang should address the greatest extent of Tang influence.
-The preceding unsigned comment was added by Keizhen 07:27, 2 February 2007 (UTC).
specification user reveal provoke criticism. your first manners towards a other keep. Tang dynasty is not so big. Goguryeo not Tang vassal, also Tang dominate the Manchuria only 668~670s till government. and Tang was not able to altogether conquer the korea peninsula.
once more consider.
korea history(Talk) 07:24, 2 February 2007(UTC)
First of all, please read the map more clearly. The dark yellow area corresponds to the area of Imperial Tang's vassals. Unified Silla was a Tang vassal. Secondly, Gaogouli (Koguryo) did send tribute to Tang in 619 as I said earlier (source: China, Korea & Japan to 1875) just before the Tang-Xinluo (silla) invasion of Gaogouli. A unified Xinluo became a Tang vassal in 668.
whenever you confront an imperialist, or imperialist sympathiser with imperialism, the imperialist will often say that "all countries with power will abuse it. if its not the u.s., it will be rome, or uk". however, i am curious about the chinese tang dynasty. i have heard that tang china didnt try to invade, attack or exploit other countries when it had the ability to. during the tang dynasty and throughout most of chinese history, there is no doubt that china had the ability to invade japan but chose not to. i would like to see a military or imperialist section added into the main article. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 81.159.35.185 (talk) 14:45, 22 March 2007 (UTC).
First sentence is:
Doesn't that contradict the box on the right-hand side? That says Tang was followed by Liao and 5D/10K, with Song coming later, if I'm reading it correctly. --193.99.145.162 00:29, 23 March 2007 (UTC)
I just added the section on Chinese maritime influence abroad during the Tang era.
--PericlesofAthens 17:53, 26 March 2007 (UTC)
If the Li were the royal family, why is it called the "Tang" Dynasty? Why isn't it called the "Li Dynasty"? And is it mentioned anywhere in the article what "Tang" means or why the dynasty was named that? Badagnani 08:18, 4 April 2007 (UTC)
I've looked through all the articles in question and in none of them does it explicitly state exactly why any of the dynasties are called what they are called. Badagnani 05:10, 5 April 2007 (UTC)
Personally, I felt the English term dynasty is a very inaccuracy term to describe Chinese dynasty. If I could change it, I would be better to translate it as empire(i.e. Tang Empire instead of Tang dynasty), but the term "dynasty" is so well established right now there no point in changing it. Most of the dynasty was named after aristocracy titles held by the founder of the dynasty. These titles were usually based upon the geographical area held by the founder. For example, Han dynasty(汉) if I recall correctly was not named after Han kingdom(韩) but was actually named after the founder Liu Bang's title 汉王(King of Han) after he was awarded Principality of Hàn (in modern Sichuan, Chongqing, and southern Shaanxi province). --WikiN00bz?
The Tang Dynasty was named "Tang" because its founder, was the Duke of Tang(唐公爵) in the Sui Dynasty. When he became Emperor, he took the noble title as the new dynastic name. This is what I was taught when I was in school(I am from Hong Kong).—Preceding unsigned comment added by 59.149.69.217 (talk) 2007-06-03 07:23:02
The Dukedom of Tang was conferred to the Li family during the Northern Zhou Dynasty. Li Yuan or Emperor Gaozu inherited it from his father. According to the Chinese official history, the so-called dynasty name is actually the country name. In effect, there wasn't a country known as "China" previously, but between 618 to 907 AD, here stands a country known as "Tang". However, throughout the years, the idea of nationhood appears. People no longer saying they are fighting for XX government, but for China. During the 1911 revolution, the word Dynasty was thus introduced. The country thus was no longer "Great Qing", but is China under the "Qing Dynasty", which is justifiable for removal. -- —Preceding unsigned comment added by 165.21.155.15 (talk) 15:06, 30 April 2008 (UTC)
I just added some more info on why the Tang Dynasty declined, including the natural calamities that struck during the period.--PericlesofAthens 17:23, 22 April 2007 (UTC)
I just added the infobox.--PericlesofAthens 21:27, 6 June 2007 (UTC)
It may need many more citations, but what do you guys think? Is this article becoming worthy of Good Article status? Or is it still too messy? In the meantime, I will request a peer review, so please make your comments there. Thanks.--PericlesofAthens 15:13, 5 July 2007 (UTC)
This article's Good Article promotion has been put on hold. During review, some issues were discovered that can be resolved without a major re-write. This is how the article, as of July 21, 2007, compares against the six good article criteria:
For better clarity, it should read something along the lines of:"The enormous Grand Canal of China (still the longest canal in the world) built during the previous Sui Dynasty facilitated the rise of new urban settlements along its route, as well as increased accessibility in mainland China to its own indigenous commercial market."
"The enormous Grand Canal of China, built during the previous Sui Dynasty, facilitated the rise of new urban settlements along its route, as well as increased trade between mainland Chinese markets. The canal is still to this day the longest in the world."
Please address these matters soon and then leave a note here showing how they have been resolved. After 48 hours the article should be reviewed again. If these issues are not addressed within 7 days, the article may be failed without further notice. Thank you for your work so far! — VanTucky (talk) 00:11, 21 July 2007 (UTC)
One more quick fix concerning factual accuracy: did not the Empress Dowager Cixi of the Qing Dynasty rule for quite some time in reality, if not officially? Perhaps the intro sentence should be changed to reflect this, ala "the first and only woman to officially rule China as Empress". the phrase "rule in her own right" wasn't clear enough for a layman such as myself.VanTucky (talk) 06:07, 21 July 2007 (UTC)
One more quick thing. The article goes in to wonderful detail about the development of classical Chinese poetry during the dynasty, but what (if any) classical Chinese novels or other literature were composed during the dynasty? I see some information in Chinese literature and Chinese classic texts that could be included. VanTucky (talk) 20:05, 21 July 2007 (UTC)
I am glad to report that this article nominee for good article status has been promoted. This is how the article, as of July 22, 2007, compares against the six good article criteria:
If you feel that this review is in error, feel free to take it to a GA review. Thank you to all of the editors who worked hard to bring it to this status, and congratulations. — VanTucky (talk) 20:47, 22 July 2007 (UTC)
I know, I know, I'm really pushing it, since it just got accepted to the level of GA status. However, the article is exceptionally well-written now, broad in coverage, stable, lacking POV (as far as I know), full of inline citations and proper references, etc.
I'd like to get everyone else's feedback.
Eric--PericlesofAthens 19:41, 25 July 2007 (UTC)
The article looks great, although it is now rather large, a bit too large. I think the FAC commentators would object to this article's size. Therefore, I am going to see what I can do to edit and downsize it a bit. I want to thank everyone for their contributions in adding material to the article, but now I want to focus on skimming it down a bit (such as sentences that are needlessly long).--PericlesofAthens 08:58, 27 July 2007 (UTC)
Readers may tire of reading a page much longer than about 6,000 to 10,000 words, which roughly corresponds to 30 to 50 KB of readable prose.
Wikipedia article size also says this about splitting articles:
Do not take precipitous action the very instant an article exceeds 32 KB. There is no need for haste. Discuss the overall topic structure with other editors. Determine whether the topic should be treated as several shorter articles and, if so, how best to organize them. Sometimes an article simply needs to be big to give the subject adequate coverage; certainly, size is no reason to remove valid and useful information.
And for articles that are more than 60 KB (Tang Dynasty is 85), it says:
Probably should be divided (although the scope of a topic can sometimes justify the added reading time)
I think the scope of the topic, a 300 year period of China's history that also includes info on society and culture, justifies the large amount of prose text. Don't you?--PericlesofAthens 21:25, 27 July 2007 (UTC)
This section only has one sentence, and it says that the world population grew about 50 million during the Tang dynasty. Is this information even necessary to the article? And if so, could it not be incorporated into another section? Hong Qi Gong (Talk - Contribs) 17:03, 2 August 2007 (UTC)
I'm probably nit-picking here, but the editors that hang around at FACs have become increasingly strict on good writing style. I was looking at this sentence in the intro and was wondering if there's a better way to write it:
Why are Du Fu and Li Bai mentioned as "famous" historical poets and Meng Haoran and Bai Juyi are not? How come they are notable enough for their own articles if they are not famous? And technically, while the sentence mentions that Du Fu and Li Bai were poets, it doesn't mention who Meng Haoran and Bai Juyi were. Hong Qi Gong (Talk - Contribs) 04:22, 3 August 2007 (UTC)
The article refers to "red crab"; that particular article is a disambiguation page that leads to dungeness crab (Cancer magister) and Christmas Island red crab (Gecarcoidea natalis), neither of which are native to China. Does anyone know what species of crab the article refers to? Neutralitytalk 20:07, 3 August 2007 (UTC)
唐朝正式國號為「唐」,而非「大唐」。元朝是中國史上第一個把「大」字加入正式國號的朝代。參見明朝人朱國禎《涌幢小品》卷二「國號」條:「國號上加大字,始於胡元,我朝因之。……其言大漢、大唐、大宋者,乃臣子及外夷尊稱之詞。」 , it explained that Tang Dynasty's native name is "Tang" but not "Great Tang" or "The Tang Dynasty" --Lmmnhn 08:49, 4 August 2007 (UTC)
I have discussed the Tang map with someone on my talk page, and he shares the same sentiment I have had for a long time about the amateur and poorly drawn map used in this article, as he said: "Seems very amateurish to me, like it was done in Windows Paint. Black water?!?"
I will try to find someone who has the spare time to make a decent map for this article; afterall, this article is a featured article, and a featured article requiring a map should have the best map possible.--Pericles of AthensTalk 21:20, 19 August 2007 (UTC)
I doubt the map is really accurate for Shilla's territory especially. Shilla is not the vassal state of Tang Dynasty. Of course, Shilla brought a tribute to Tang Dynasty historically but this does not mean Shilla is the Tang's vassal. you know, Shilla and Tang fought in Korean peninsula for many years and Tang acknowleged the independence of Shilla in effect. So many maps which depict the territory of Tang don't include Shilla in their works. I absolutely agree with PericlesofAthens's opinion, furthermore, I hope anyone who has a thorough knowledge of China and Korea history will make the more accurate map.--2SteamClocks 06:03, 20 August 2007 (UTC)
The map reads "China under the Tang dynasty (yellow) and its allies and at least nominal vassal states (dark yellow), c. 660 CE." (Bold style by me) Do you see any map of country which includes the terrotory of its allies and nominal vassal states featured by same color? It can help readers misunderstand the real territory of the empire and whether a neighboring state is ally or vassal state. The map of Tang with peculiar color should be excluded in the map especially in the introdution section which is shown at first. --2SteamClocks 10:15, 28 August 2007 (UTC)
I would like to bring interested editors' attention to this map. I have drawn the Tang border according to this and this, which are scanned from "History and Commercial Atlas of China." Although it isnt as nice as those high quality maps, im more than happy to upload the Tong part from the animated map as a separate image, and perhaps specifying it to include neighbouring states and tribes, or colouring the water blue. : ) Comments, suggestions, corrections welcome. Ian Kiu (ha...) 07:00, 11 October 2007 (UTC) Ive been bold and uploaded the map. I'll appreciate any comments, suggestions, or corrections. Pojanji 23:33, 12 October 2007 (UTC)
I take it by all the recent vandalism that this article is becoming somewhat popular! Lol. Well, at least amongst immature middle school students who can't think of anything wittier to say than "penis" and "vagina" and "he sucks weener"...if you're going to vandalize a page, at least make it funny for us adults. Otherwise, why even bother? That's like bothering to mark up something with graffiti but not making it look interesting, cool, or beautiful. In any case, I will jockey to put this article under semi-protection if the vandalism keeps up on this level; so far today, the page has been vandalized a total of 15 times. That's quite a bit for a single day, for any article.--Pericles of AthensTalk 00:48, 2 February 2008 (UTC)
I'm proud to announce that this article has 200 inline citations now! It now rivals the amount in Song Dynasty and Ming Dynasty. I've also added some new pictures to the article. Enjoy!--Pericles of AthensTalk 03:40, 24 February 2008 (UTC)
The Tang Dynasty had three main colors: yellow, green, and brown. They also had sidebar colors that were not as commonly used such as blue, black, and white. Their colors were presented on robes they wore during events, special occasions, holidays, plays, etc. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 75.85.211.17 (talk) 23:30, 13 March 2008 (UTC)
Actually no, the most dominant colour they had was red. It was changed to silver by Empress Wu, but was reverted after her son's coup against her which restored the Tang Dynasty —Preceding unsigned comment added by Staygyro (talk • contribs) 09:37, 2 April 2008 (UTC)
The Map does not show the whole empire, only the parts under direct Imperial control, there is a lot more to the Tang Empire than the map suggests. My map is better but it isn't in English, that is fair enough but can someone find a better map in English? Staygyro (talk) 23:48, 2 April 2008 (UTC)
If/when you have time PericlesOfAthens, your knowledge of Tang China is much better than mine. Would you please look at the existing [Image:East-Hem_700ad.jpg] and [Image:East-Hem_800ad.jpg], and let me know if the borders of Tang are accurate. I'd be happy to crop and customize one of the existing maps, or even create a new one for 750 AD, if so desired. In other words, I'd be happy to zoom-in and highlight Tang areas specifically for the article. I've been experimenting a little with enhancing them, and can probably come up with a unique map as long as I have correct info. Respectfully, Thomas Lessman (talk) 22:57, 2 April 2008 (UTC)
Thats very good but in your maps you implied that the Tubo (not Tufan), the Khitans, the Gokturks, the Uighurs, the Jurchens and the Turkic peoples east of the Caspian Sea were all independent countries. That was not the case. In reality they were all part of the Tang Empire. Only they were not all under direct Imperial control but are controlled via regional tribal chieftains and warlords, all of whom were subject to the Emperor. They sometimes revolted, but the conflicts were not between countries, but between the central Imperial Government and regional tribal chieftains. What I suggest you do is colour the directly governed regions one colour and draw approximate fading outlines for each of the regional subject authorities in the same colour as their borders were undefined approximations anyway. Staygyro (talk) 23:47, 2 April 2008 (UTC)
What I suggest you do is colour the directly governed regions one colour and draw fading outlines for each of the regional subject authorities in the same colour as their borders were undefined approximations anyway.
I like this idea, as long as independent tributary states, semi-autonomous states, semi-autonomous nomadic territories, and independent nomadic territories are clearly defined by use of heavy and light shading, as well as a neutral color for everything else outside of direct Tang control as well as Tang influence at all.--Pericles of AthensTalk 02:33, 3 April 2008 (UTC)
If/when you have time PericlesOfAthens, your knowledge of Tang China is much better than mine.
Sure, I know much about the Tang, but I have to be honest in admitting that I am no cartographer, and even less capable of showing each little territorial change for each year of the Tang. I suggest getting together a team of knowledgeable editors who can provide valuable input.--Pericles of AthensTalk 02:33, 3 April 2008 (UTC)
Or if there's a problem with the Preview Window not showing up either template correctly, then just bugreport it to Bugzilla (file a bugreport/bug report or whatever).68.148.164.166 (talk) 04:53, 2 July 2008 (UTC)
I did not remove the recently added info on the Tang federation, or the map with the legend key, but I do ask that it not be shown until a scholarly source is properly cited so that the readers can know exactly where this information came from.--Pericles of AthensTalk 19:08, 21 September 2008 (UTC)
The article states that
"The Tang, unlike the Sui, did not send royal princesses to their leaders; instead they were married to Turk mercenaries or generals in Chinese service, and such marriages only occurred in two rare occasions between 635 and 636."
However, I read sources stating that the Tang pursued "a policy of pacification through marriage." Can the following be incorporated into the corresponding section. Here are the relevant quotations:
While waiting for the Turks' weakness to defeat them, Taizong believed China had to pursue what he called "a policy of pacification through marriage." That required sending large diplomatic missions with costly gifts to accompany the Chinese princess brides.Findley, C.V., The Turks in World History, 2005, pp.40, Oxford University Press
.., the Tang emperors saw no choice, if they could not defeat the Turks, but to continue the diplomacy of marriage. For the Tang, too, the policy produced payoffs at a price. In the upheavals touched off by the An Lushan rebellion in 755, the Tang grew desperately dependant on the Uyghurs for aid against the rebels and correspondingly unable to resist Uyghur demands and depradations. Women played critical roles in maintaining the Tang-Uyghur alliance at several moments. In 758, Princess Ningguo(Ning-kuo) was married to El-Etmish Bilge Kaghan... Princess Ningguo was the first of four Tang princesses married to Ughur kaghans.Findley 2005, p.53-54
--Nostradamus1 (talk) 00:56, 30 October 2008 (UTC)
Great work on getting the article to FA status. However, I feel that the infobox needs work. Specifically:
- The display of the list of emperors and chancellors is misleading, it appears to me that the list is arbitrarily truncated to six entries due to some built-in functionality of the infobox template (as viewed on Chrome and IE, at least). This should either be remedied to show the complete list, or an explanation given for why the list is truncated. Another suggestion would be to use a collapsible box if the infobox would be too long. Good code that could possible be used for this can be found at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Template:Electromagnetism3 , which was set up by DJIndica.
- The section on 'Chancellors' is difficult for me (a non-expert) to understand. Did these men all hold the same post during the same year? (In truth, I suspect that the section is in error and the dates need to be clarified) For reference, this section was added in an edit at 19:55, September 7, 2008 by ㄏㄨㄤㄉㄧ , and has been largely unchanged since. This problem with the dates is in addition to the problem with the display. (i.e. it exists in the source code)
- Lastly, both of these sections clearly require direct citations to allow for verification of the facts.
- To warn readers of these problems, I've tagged the article as 'infobox in need of cleanup'
Cheers, Supasheep (talk) 02:40, 1 November 2008 (UTC)
The section called Establishment claims that "Li Shimin ascended the throne as Emperor Taizong" after his father abdicated in his favor. This is wrong, since Taizong was Li Shimin's temple name (miao hao 廟號), a title that was always chosen posthumously. It is conventional in Tang scholarship to refer to emperors by their temple names (because they had too many reign periods [nian hao 年號]), but the wiki should make this distinction more clearly. Maybe we could have: "Shortly thereafter, his father abdicated in his favor and Li Shimin ascended the throne. He is conventionally known by his temple name Taizong." I'm sure we can find a smoother formulation, but you get the point! --Madalibi (talk) 03:14, 30 November 2008 (UTC)
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