Talk:Swaminarayan/Archive 1

Just to remind all our good friends writing and reading this discussion that Bhagwan Swaminarayan was a nice guy, did lots of great work, and has been followed, in the past 200 years, by many millions of devotees and a few thousand sadhus. Thats a great achievement. Whether you believe him to be God, or a great human, is a belief, but that he was a positive force in this world, is a fact. As to all the other discussions about ISSO and BAPS and what-have-you, imho you people should attend a few assemblies of the 'other' camp / organization / sect. You'll probably realize - if you're honest enough - that its all the same. wildT 14:11, 10 September 2006 (UTC)

This is an archive of past discussions about Swaminarayan. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page.

Archive 1

Archive 2

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Archive 5

I would just like to clear up one thing. ISSO is an organisation within the NarNarayan Dev Gadi (Amdavad) set up to improve satsang outside india. Basically Bhagwan Swaminarayan led a sect called the Uddhav Sampradaya. Now that Uddhav Sampradaya(known and referred to as Swaminarayan Sampradaya) was divided into 2 Gadis by Swaminarayan Bhagwan in Vadtal. The 2 Gadius are NarNarayan Dev Gadi (Amdavad) and LaxmiNarayan Dev Gadi (Vadtal).

I have proved BAPS to be false on many occasions but these people don't work on the basis of philosophy, they live according to hear say(from their gurus who are worshipped as god). So these people will not be able to answer back yet they will not be able to accept the truth also.

No need to attend assemblies to find out about honesty. If you believe in Swaminarayan Bhagwan then you follow the sect and rules established by himself(Uddhav Sampradaya). If you want to follow BAPS(which say they follow Swaminarayan Bhagwan - but in actual fact don't) then you follow the rules set up by the so called Gurus.

Finally to all BAPS devotees good luck in finding moksha(salvation) because according to the scriptures of the swaminarayan sampradaya you seem to be going in the opposite way. Im sure you can work out the rest.

Jai Swaminarayan

Haribhagat 15:47, 6 February 2007 (UTC)

READ IT ALL!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!**********************!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! it has significance to all beleivers of the Swaminarayan faith.

To start with, I BELIEVE in the Vadtal gadi and not BAPS. But no one on this discussion page has been able to STEADILY stay un-biased for his/or her particular sect. (NOT CULT -- get it right)

TAKE THE TIME TO READ THIS WHOLE INPUT BECAUSE I BELIEVE THAT IT WILL END THE BAD MOUTHING GOING ON HERE. OK I have read through all these posts and the same conclusion comes up everytime. NONE of us have he right to say that "he is LOWER than us" - or - "their reasoing is FLAWED." That is taking abav-avgun(fault finding) of a person, it doesn't matter if you are a satsangi(devotee) or a follower of another religion. No one has the right to say that they are right and everyone else is wrong becuase you are not Bhagwan(God). This article is getting way out of hand. It doens't matter from what part of the Swaminarayan religion that you are from, the moment you take abav-avgun of some then you have a permant scar on yourself (i dont care if you believe it or not, but if you are Swaminarayan (any Swaminarayan) and well versed in the many relgious scriptures as many of the ones that have "contributed" [b/c i should say "taken away from"] to this discussion are, believe in not taking abav-avgun. In other words, many, if not all of us that have written on this page beleive in not taking abav-avgun, whether you BELIEVE in Vadtal or FOLLOW BAPS).I AM GOING TO SAY THIS AGAIN SO THAT PEOPLE DONT FORGET, I BELIEVE IN THE VADTAL SAMPRADAY. So everyone just stop and think of what you have done. Some regard Pujya Pramukh Swami Maharaj in a bad way (not neccesarily BAD, but many are INDIRECTLY insulting a man of his stature, but i do not see how you can do that, go to the BAPS website (swaminarayan.org), or just google his name and you will not find one bad thing about him. {on the other hand you will find A LOT OF CONTROVERSY about the Vadtal sampraday. And i dont not deny that. It IS there and it HAS happened, and we in the Vadtal sampraday need to take reponsibilty for the actions of our santos, b/c i dont not believe it to be te work of rival sects, but that is what I think) Just look at the works Pramukh Swami Maharaj has done. The Akshardham CULTURAL complexes in Delhi, and Gandinagar. He was named one of the most influencial persons in the world, and has never hated against anyone. For example, after the terrorist attacks on the Gandinagar Akshardham complex a few yuears ago, the BAPS held a MULTI-religious (cultural) assembly just so that the akward. fragile balance in India and Pakistan would not turn into chaos. To those that have refered to Pujya Pramukh Swami Mahraj as 'this pramukh' or 'this baps' please out of respect for the others on this article do not demote anyone (i say 'demote' because that is clearly what you have done either directly or indirectly)(many have done it indirectly, but please stop). And to the arguement of adding MAHARAJ to a persons name -- to those people debating that i say that you are proposing a POINTLESS arguement. It does not matter what a person's title is, It is what you BELIEVE, not what "raj" or "haribhato" (to name some ppl in this disccusion). It doesn't matter what these people say. It is only what thier mind tells them, but if you want to go ahead and beleive them, then do not add to this discussion because obviously you dont have a point of view. Religion (in all parts of the world) is mainly about you and god not about RAJ, Haribhakto, Shah, Vivek, and then GOD. NO ---- God is placed before everyone else. And as i have seen, whoever's post it was, they "called out" (challenged) someone to defy them -- get this in your mind YOU are not GOD.) you have no right to challenge anyone to believe that you and only you are right. SO everyone that has taken all this abav-avgun on other peoples or sects of the Swaminarayan faith, believe what you want, but know that you have done something wrong b/c NO ONE is perfect.

Just to reiterate my point, I am a strongly proponent of the VADTAL sampraday, so i dont want anyone challening that this was more biased then most of the other pieces of garbage posted on this page. The BAPS believes in what they KNOW to be RIGHT and TRUE, and to them I say, "Good job" becuase many of the followers of the same gadi as me, we have not lived up to Swaminarayan Bhagwan's expectations. I would like to hear everyones comment but i do not want anyone to think that i am like user 'haribhagat' (who has posted in this article) and i am not "challenging anyone who disagrees!"

And to one and all good-night and Jai SWAMINARAYAN.

email at vspam91@gmail.com (no spam please b/c this is my seondary email account)

Jai Swaminarayan,

Before I reply back to the post above I would like to point out that I have on a few occasions moved the post in question to the bottom of the page, however the person who has posted is adamant that it stays on the top(as he has reverted my actions), perhaps because he feels so strongly upon the issue.

Comment by vspam91@gmail.com(I do not know what else to call you) - To start with, I BELIEVE in the Vadtal gadi and not BAPS. But no one on this discussion page has been able to STEADILY stay un-biased for his/or her particular sect. (NOT CULT -- get it right)

I am assuming that when you say not cult, you are referring to my comments towards BAPS. I have posted the reason why I concluded that BAPS was a cult on this page, you can reply back to that post. Just after this initial part of your post I am getting the feeling that you are not actually a of the uddhav sampradaya but are in fact a devotee of BAPS. Perhaps this is a ploy?

Comment by vspam91@gmail.com - OK I have read through all these posts and the same conclusion comes up everytime. NONE of us have he right to say that "he is LOWER than us" - or - "their reasoing is FLAWED." That is taking abav-avgun(fault finding) of a person, it doesn't matter if you are a satsangi(devotee) or a follower of another religion. No one has the right to say that they are right and everyone else is wrong becuase you are not Bhagwan(God).

I think you are not reading the posts properly, are you sure you understand the basis of this discussion/debate? We or even I am not taking avgun but are pointing out the truth and backing up the claims with scriptural reference, now if that is avgun in your eyes then perhaps you need to back to your books and re-check the definition. Also no one is saying they are bhagwan we are just pointing out what is written in scriptures if you find this hard to digest then just question the references that are provided as this is the only thing that you can do. If the references and the point made are justified then that person is correct. Note this is not about other religions, this is about swaminarayan bhagwan and the sect that he set up.

Comment by vspam91@gmail.com - This article is getting way out of hand. It doens't matter from what part of the Swaminarayan religion that you are from, the moment you take abav-avgun of some then you have a permant scar on yourself (I dont care if you believe it or not, but if you are Swaminarayan (any Swaminarayan) and well versed in the many relgious scriptures as many of the ones that have "contributed" [b/c I should say "taken away from"] to this discussion are, believe in not taking abav-avgun. In other words, many, if not all of us that have written on this page beleive in not taking abav-avgun, whether you BELIEVE in Vadtal or FOLLOW BAPS).

I agree I have proved BAPS to be false yet there are still ignorant people who are posting on this page without actually answering back to any of my posts. Let me explain one thing to you clearly(if you are a devotee of vadtal diocese you should know this, however I will re-iterate the point)Shreeji Maharaj was the head of the Uddhav Sampradaya, he then created two gadis(Amdavad and Vadtal). So what you say doesn’t make sense as according to Swaminarayan Bhagwan there is only one Sampradaya. If you read the rest of this page you would understand this. I have talked about Abhav-Avgun in my previous point.(You seem to be mentioning this term a lot, yet it seems to me you do not know the full meaning of the term in this context)

Comment by vspam91@gmail.com - I AM GOING TO SAY THIS AGAIN SO THAT PEOPLE DONT FORGET, I BELIEVE IN THE VADTAL SAMPRADAY.

You have mentioned this at the start of the post, why do you feel the need to re-iterate your point. Is it because people may not believe you? Next you say I believe in the Vadtal Sampradaya, which to all devotees of Uddhav sampradaya is referred to as Vadtal Gadi and not Sampradaya. Can you see why people might start to think that you are from BAPS and not from Uddhav Sampradaya or Vadtal Sampradaya as you like to call it.

Comment by vspam91@gmail.com - So everyone just stop and think of what you have done. Some regard Pujya Pramukh Swami Maharaj in a bad way (not neccesarily BAD, but many are INDIRECTLY insulting a man of his stature, but I do not see how you can do that, go to the BAPS website (swaminarayan.org), or just google his name and you will not find one bad thing about him.

I myself and others in support of Uddhav Sampradaya have justified our points on this talk page already. Please if you do not like the comments made question them with direct reference instead of making up this post which does not direct at anything specific. Quote and Debate! So because there isn't anything bad about him on google, you came to the conclusion that what he is doing is correct? Is google a scripture? Last time I checked it was a search engine, unless people now regard it as a scripture. Have you ever even glanced at the scriptures of the Uddhav Sampradaya? Please do it should clear up a lot of your doubts and misconceptions.

Comment by vspam91@gmail.com - {on the other hand you will find A LOT OF CONTROVERSY about the Vadtal sampraday. And I dont not deny that. It IS there and it HAS happened, and we in the Vadtal sampraday need to take reponsibilty for the actions of our santos, b/c I dont not believe it to be te work of rival sects, but that is what I think)

What point are you trying to make?, apart from the obvious to show vadtal in a bad light and BAPS to be faultless. Are you sure you’re a devotee from the Vadtal Gadi? ISKCON was hit with scandals, this does not mean they are incorrect. Vadtal was hit with scandals but they have been dealt with, so to answer your point action has been taken.

Comment by vspam91@gmail.com - Just look at the works Pramukh Swami Maharaj has done. The Akshardham CULTURAL complexes in Delhi, and Gandinagar. He was named one of the most influencial persons in the world, and has never hated against anyone. For example, after the terrorist attacks on the Gandinagar Akshardham complex a few yuears ago, the BAPS held a MULTI-religious (cultural) assembly just so that the akward. fragile balance in India and Pakistan would not turn into chaos.

What does all this have to do with Siddhant of Uddhav Sampradaya? Bill gates is going to donate 99.8% of all his money when he dies to charity. What if he starts a swaminarayan sect soon do we start believing him? Look how much money he donates and you wont find anything bad about him on google...WOW lets all bow down to him, he is our saviour. When it comes to issues regarding religion please refer to scriptures to back up your point rather than google or cultural complexes.

Comment by vspam91@gmail.com - And to the arguement of adding MAHARAJ to a persons name -- to those people debating that I say that you are proposing a POINTLESS arguement. It does not matter what a person's title is, It is what you BELIEVE, not what "raj" or "haribhato" (to name some ppl in this disccusion). It doesn't matter what these people say. It is only what thier mind tells them, but if you want to go ahead and beleive them, then do not add to this discussion because obviously you dont have a point of view.

I am trying to put this to you as nicely as possible, it is obvious that you knowledge regarding swaminarayan bhagwan is limited, hence you are not actually debating but merely stating things off the top of your head. We are having a Siddhant debate here where scriptures are referred to not your own personal view. I (HariBhagat NOT haribhato) and Raj have used scriptures to back up our points and we are not forcing anyone to believe. We are placing the facts in front of them(on this page) it is then up to the individual what they believe. Note my mind is not telling me to believe this my Ishtadevs words(from scriptures) are telling me to believe this. Your last sentence does not make sense, this is a talk page anyone with a point of view can post just like yourself, it may not be correct but that doesn’t mean you can stop them from posting.

Comment by vspam91@gmail.com - Religion (in all parts of the world) is mainly about you and god not about RAJ, Haribhakto, Shah, Vivek, and then GOD. NO ---- God is placed before everyone else. And as I have seen, whoever's post it was, they "called out" (challenged) someone to defy them -- get this in your mind YOU are not GOD.) you have no right to challenge anyone to believe that you and only you are right.

No one is claiming to be god, are you sure you have read this page? Perhaps you skimmed through another page. We are challenging those who outright breach the words of Swaminarayan Bhagwan yet claim to believe in him and in actual fact mock him. Of course we can challenge others please refer to Panchala 5(to make it clearer for you this is a reference of the Vachanamrut - a scripture from the Uddhav Sampradaya). If I believe that you are insulting my Ishtadev or saints then I have a right to prove you wrong or challenge you. Was muktanand swami wrong to challenge the scholars in Vadodra? Was Nityanand Swami wrong to challenge all scholars in India? It is clear you do not know enough about the sampradaya but are enthusiastic(I admire this, but I advise you to read more and find out for yourself the truth)

Comment by vspam91@gmail.com - Just to reiterate my point, I am a strongly proponent of the VADTAL sampraday, so I dont want anyone challening that this was more biased then most of the other pieces of garbage posted on this page. The BAPS believes in what they KNOW to be RIGHT and TRUE, and to them I say, "Good job" becuase many of the followers of the same gadi as me, we have not lived up to Swaminarayan Bhagwan's expectations.

Yes you have mentioned this point 3 times(talk about insecurity) BAPS may believe in what they perceive to be right but as a devotee of vadtal gadi you should not say good job, why? They have split themselves from vadtal. They do not accept the authority of vadtal mandir or the acharya. BAPS believe in their own philosophy but not swaminarayan bhagwans philosophy. BAPS can follow what they want, but when they claim that they follow swaminarayan bhagwan or they are correct and we are incorrect that is when we should challenge. Explain how the devotees of the same gadi as you, have not lived up to Swaminarayan Bhagwans expectations? and how you’re trying to say that BAPS have? How can BAPS live up to Swaminarayan Bhagwans expectations if they do not follow what swaminarayan bhagwan has instructed them to do? BAPS was not set up by Swaminarayan Bhagwan or was it?

Comment by vspam91@gmail.com - I would like to hear everyones comment but I do not want anyone to think that I am like user 'haribhagat' (who has posted in this article) and I am not "challenging anyone who disagrees!"

You are not challenging anyone who disagrees because you know that in actual fact you cannot challenge them. You have not answered any of the questions posed on this talk page yet have written this post just directing at many comments. If you felt the comments were wrong why didn’t you quote and actually explain what is correct(by using scriptural reference of course).

Perhaps you need to decide what you follow and why you actually follow it. To many it may seem that you are a BAPS devotee trying to prove a point in a cunning way, you may be you may not be. One thing is for sure you do not know where your priorities lie. If you believe in Swaminarayan bhagwan to be your Ishtadev then you believe in the following Swaminarayan Bhagwan, Acharyas established by Swaminarayan Bhagwan, Murtis installed by Acharays, Scriptures authenticated by Acharayas, Saints initiated by Acharyas and devotees who are under Vadtal or Amdavad Gadi and not BAPS, as to True Swaminarayan devotees they are VIMOOKHS!!!

Haribhagat 15:47, 6 February 2007 (UTC)

Also why doesnt this page show the behavior of Vadtal and ISSO Acharya's and its " sadhus". These "sadhus" who are suppose to be celebate had sex. Then they taped it. If it is really the original samprady why would they be doing this. Acharays, the one from ISSO went and drived drunk. even your own followers admit this. Also BAPS doesn't just put murtis of Krishna, Ganapati, Humuman just for show. We give devotion to these murtis. We just don't talk about Pramukh Swami Maharaj all the time. This week a bal mandal presenation has to do with Krishna. Also we do not try to hide split from VAdtal. We say it openly.Also why do your follower thnk that they are all that. they believe that we are wrong and always start a debate. Well if you guys think you are right then why do you have to be shwing off. Also after MAharaj went to Dham the Acharya rewrote some parts so who can prove that he didn't swtich around thinks about/ Akshar and Purshottam. A devotte of MAharaj's time admits that Maharaj said Gunatitanad Swami was his abide.

Bravo, what a write up by the anonymous person, I can see you have gone to a great length to make a point but I really don’t know what that point is? But let me clear up some vague aspects mentioned in you write up:

Firstly when you say “the behavior of Vadtal and ISSO Acharya's” this does not make sense because there is no ISSO Acharya, only Vadtal Gadi Acharya and Ahmedabad Gadi Acharya. This behavior you talk of for the sadhus, are now excommunicated from the Sampraday and this “sex scandel” is the result of actions performed by the rivelry groups of the sect just to stain the name of the Sampraday but than even the sadhus are human being, some of the more venerable can be lured in to such an act.

Till today I have not heard of such an allegation of the Original Swaminarayan Sampraday acharya drinking alchohol of any kind please explain yourself. Id like to know more of what you are trying to say in the line “BAPS doesn't just put murtis of Krishna, Ganapati, Humuman just for show” who said they did put it for show? And from what I see on your websites this Pramukh Swami is shown to be equivalent to Bhagwan Swaminarayan when he shouldn’t be and lot of your devotees see him as a form of God is that not true? Can I ask what was the point of saying the following “This week a bal mandal presenation has to do with Krishna”? what do you want a medal?

Regarding the split of BAPS from the Swaminarayan Sampraday, I did not say you hide this fact but you try and twist the truth as much as possible to your benefit and than you went on to say “why do your follower thnk that they are all that” Im not even going to comment on this because I cant even think of what sate of mind you were in when writing this? The question of the authenticity of the Original Swaminarayan Sampraday is quite clear as shown in the Swaminarayan Scriptures, Mandirs and religious texts whereas BAPS is a splinter group or break away of the Original Swaminarayan Sampraday as well as them there are many other smaller sects.

Next you went on to say “Also after MAharaj went to Dham the Acharya rewrote some parts so who can prove that he didn't swtich around thinks about/ Akshar and Purshottam” the Acharyas did not rewrite the scriptures but additionally wrote some texts, kirtans etc. All the orignal texts is unchanged such as Vachanamrut, Shikshapatri, Satsangi Jeevan etc. Log on to the Digital Shikshapatri website to see the original scripture, Which by the way has no mention of this AksharPurshottam God as well as in the Vachanamrut which is the divine gospels of Bhagwan Swaminarayan. As for this devotee of Maharaj whom you say admits that Bhagwan said Gunatitanand Swami was his abide, well is there anything to prove this claim and even so there are lots of people whom say this today because these are the teachings of the BAPS, so does that prove anything? On a finishing note if there is no mention of AksharPurshottam in any in the Swaminarayan/Hindu scriptures and Shriji Maharaj did not initiate any murti’s of AksharPurshottam in any of his first nine Mandir’s than how can you say AksharPurshottam is a Swaminarayan deity, you will find more salvation if you prey to Bhagwan Swaminarayan buts thats what I think.

Jay Swaminarayan Raj - सनातन धर्म 13:08, 21 June 2006 (UTC)

Rightyho folks, lets clear some things up, shall we?

1) Pramukh Swami is not treated as being the SAME as Shreeji Maharaj, we do not claim he IS Shreeji Maharaj, but he is worshipped on par with Him. Why? Have a read of the following Vachanamrut Vadtal 5: "Just as one performs mansi puja of God, if one also performs mandi puja of the ideal Bhakta along with God by offering him the prasad of God; and just as one prepares thal for God, similarly if one prepares a thal for God's ideal Bhakta and serves it to him; and just as one donates five rupees to God, similarly, if one also donates money to the great Sant - then by performing with extreme affection such similar service of God and the Sant who possesses the highest qualities, even if he is a devotee of the lowest type who was destined to become a devotee of the highest type after two lives, or after four lives, or after ten lives, or after a hundred lives, he will become a devotee of the highest calibre in this very life. Such are the fruits of the similar service of God and God's Bhakta." Any questions?

2) Regarding the split, I fail to see why there are any questions. Shastriji Maharaj felt Akshar-Purushottam upasana should be followed and obviously Vadtal mandir wasn't following it. He also felt some sadhus were slightly lax in their niyams (and judging by recent events, it seems he was right). So for these two reasons, he, five santos and a handful left to establish a branch of Swaminarayan Hinduism that HE felt was correct. Wether he was or not is not for you, me, or anybody to decide or state here on Wikipedia. We can debate the issue till the cows come home elsewhere, but HERE on THIS website, it its not anybody's place. Let each side post their own entries and elsewhere. Simple as that.

3) As for proof of Akshar-Purushottam, I suggest you read your Vachanamrut. Look these up for starters: Gadhada I-8, Gadhada I-54, Gadhada I-68, Gadhada I-71, and Vadtal-5. Also, before it is claimed that the BAPS translation is wrong, please note that it is a direct translation of the original authentic manuscript published in 1928 by Acharya Shripatiprasadji of Vadtal, so if you wish to refute the above Vachanamruts, read manuscript they were translated from. Whilst you're at it, look up Prakran 2 in the Bhaktachintamani by Sadguru Nityanand Swami :)

Also, how about the following Bhajans composed during Bhagwan Swaminarayan's life by his own Nand Santos: 'Sukhdayak Re, Sachha Sant no Sang', 'Sant Jan, Soi Sada' by Muktanand Swami, 'Sant Param Hitakari', 'Balihari Mein Aisi Santki' by Brahmanand Swami, 'Eva Santni Balihari Re' by Premanand Swami, 'Dhanya Dhanya E Santne' by Nityanand Swami...shall I carry on?

As you can see, all the above and many more (just give me the word and I'll post more...) highlight the need, greatness, and attributes of a Sant or Guru. Whilst the Acharayas Swaminarayan Bhagwan put in place are to be revered (they are, after all, part of the Dharmakul), if Maharaj is reffering to them in the Vachanamrut he says 'Acharya', therefore 'Guru' and 'Sant' cannot be taken to mean the Acharayas...

4) Lay off the kid. It's obvious he or she was a Balak or Balika judging by their comments on their sabha. There is no need to be rude to somebody younger than you, kids can be passionate about things and sometimes get carried away. Relax.

--86.138.155.10 09:42, 23 June 2006 (UTC)

Nice write up but if you don’t mind I’ll add some further points, firstly I did not say that you treat Pramukh as same as Shriji Maharaj or that he is Shriji Maharaj I said you treat him to be equivalent to Shriji Maharaj because if you take a look at your BAPS website there is only a big image of pramukh but not Maharaj and also regarding Vachnamrut Vadtal 5 some parts of what you say are correct but it is shown to be more of a question from bhakto brought forward to Maharaj and this can be done but don’t have to, also this still has no mention of AksharPurushottam.

In the Shikshapatri slok 109 – 110 there are many other names of Swaminarayan Bhagwan such as and I quote “When Shri Krishna is accompanied by Radha, the dual form should be known as Radha-Krishna. When He is with Rukmini, He should be known as LaxmiNarayan. When He is with Arjun, He should be known as NarNarayan, and when He is with Balbhadra and other devotees” but it does not state when he is with Gunatitanand Swami he shall be known as AksharPurushottam as well as in the Janmangal Namvali it states all of Bhagwan Swaminarayan’s names but none of them is AksharPurushottam.

If you think there is a difference between the Acharya and Guru than your right but in the Swaminarayan Sampraday the Acharya of which ever Gadi you belong to is the Guru and this is clearly proven in the Shikshapatri slok 128-129 read your version, mine of even the different translations in www.shikshapatri.org.uk, they state that the Acharya is established as the guru, they give Bhagwati Diksha for the ones whom desire it and Guru-mantra to the males and the wife of the acharya’s provide diksha to the females. In BAPS if Pramukh is the only leader and a celibate who would initiate the females in to your fold?

Also just for the record diksha can only be given by the acharya in the Swaminarayan Sampraday so how can all the BAPS celibates be considered as Santo’s and same goes for the Pran Pratishta only Murti’s installed by the Acharya, of the Ahmedabad or Vadtal gadi and Bhagwan himself can be preyed to, all others can only be bowed down to as a mark of respect.

Regarding the split, this Shastriji Maharaj you refer to how can he have the title Maharaj because he is still a celibate and a normal human being can not earn this title. More to the point he left the Sampraday because he had different views but I think its fair to say he left the original Sampraday which was started by Bhagwan Swaminarayan so in effect he went against Bhagwan Swaminarayan and started his own sanstha where he made him self the head of the BAPS but Gunatitanand Swami was a loyal Nand Santo of Bhagwan and he did not go against Bhagwan Swaminarayan. So if anything this belief in AksharPurushottam really started from this Bhagatji Maharaj.

The Bhajans you speak of are more to do with sant samagam not AksharPurushottam but yes they are about highlighting the need, greatness, and attributes of a Sant which is all good but it doesn’t put into place on how a sant can hold the sect in control.

Lastly my comments on the last write up done by the anonymous person was not a personal attack it was only to show the correct path and facts so hope no offence was taken whether the person was young or old. Raj - सनातन धर्म 13:12, 23 June 2006 (UTC)

Ok. This is my last response on the topic for the time being as I dont wish to be drawn into an argument. I'm sure it is clear to all that the views of BAPS are just as important as the views of the Vadtal and Ahmedabad Gadi followers. What you have to remember, is that regardless of whether or not you believe the philosophy BAPS is based upon is right or not, it has over a million followers, 600 temples and 5000 centres around the world, and is currently the fastest growing Hindu organisation (ref: Williams, 2001). Thats makes them a significant player in the Swaminarayan world. That means BAPS should be allowed to have an entry on the Swaminarayan page. Regardless of whether or not YOU consider them to be Swaminarayan, BAPS followers offer bhakti to their ishtadev: Bhagwan Swaminarayan. They follow the five vartmans and other religious laws. That makes them Swaminarayans. Its like a Catholic not letting an Anglican edit the Christianity page! Its madness! I dont see why BAPS and Ahmedabad/Vadtal and Swaminarayan Gadi, Anupam etc can't all submit their own information about their OWN organisation.

I'm not suggesting we let everybody edit each others (which has been happening up till now by Ahmedabad/Vadtal followers. Note how BAPS/Swaminarayan Gadi/Anupam haven't edited the Ahmedabad/Vadtal Section), I'm simply suggesting we all give each party their voice. Each organisation holds Bhagwan Swaminarayan to be their God, surely that qualifies them to have an entry on the Swaminarayan page. Theres nothing stopping organisations having their own wikipedia pages, and most do, but the Swaminarayan page should be shared by all organisations. The only organisation I know that would be against this is the Ahmedabad/Vadtal one...and I'm not quite sure why. It's as if you're worried one or more of the other organisations may actually be right...

If you wish to carry on this discussion, I suggest we move to e-mail or some other medium. This isn't the place to discuss the differences in beliefs and philosophies. This is meant to be a place to discuss edits. Thanks.

--86.138.155.10 17:48, 25 June 2006 (UTC)

Good Lord...some people HAVE to spoil it for everybody else, don't they? What the hell is wrong with letting each organisation present their ideas, beliefs and facts. I thought one of the basic principles of Hinduism was the fact that Hindus do not evangelise? Surely by not letting some people contribute, you are pushing your own agenda? People aren't dumb. Let them make up their own minds. Stop being so damn childish and grow up...all of you!

Yes thanks for your input second anonymous person, just to let you know I just want to convey the truth which is what the people should know and yes they can make their own minds up and Hinduism is also about truth and justice. Raj - सनातन धर्म 22:24, 21 June 2006 (UTC)

Hey Raj, Anonymous #1 here. Dude i think that you have way to much time on your hands. Also i think my buddy Anonymous 2 was the bigger man there. The web is the place to argue like two little scholl girls. We gotta seem united to the world. Thats the only way this SAMPRADAY- MAy it be BAPS the GAdis wtaever can grow and we can speard the truth the Bhagawan Swaminarayan is Sarvopari.

BAP visitor and Vachinamrut Scholar would appreciate a private or open diaologue with anyone about SN. Thank you. Mike Hooten, Concord NC, mlhooten@gmail.com

Below is a comment made by an anonymous BAPS believer.

Ok. This is my last response on the topic for the time being as I dont wish to be drawn into an argument. I'm sure it is clear to all that the views of BAPS are just as important as the views of the Vadtal and Ahmedabad Gadi followers. What you have to remember, is that regardless of whether or not you believe the philosophy BAPS is based upon is right or not, it has over a million followers, 600 temples and 5000 centres around the world, and is currently the fastest growing Hindu organisation (ref: Williams, 2001). Thats makes them a significant player in the Swaminarayan world. That means BAPS should be allowed to have an entry on the Swaminarayan page. Regardless of whether or not YOU consider them to be Swaminarayan, BAPS followers offer bhakti to their ishtadev: Bhagwan Swaminarayan. They follow the five vartmans and other religious laws.

MY REPLY

Can we please use siddhant(Philosophy) as a mode of debate rather than bringing up figures of mandirs and devotees.

Secondly bhakti performed by BAPS devotees is not offered to Bhagwan Swaminarayan. You are confused, let me explain. For us mere mortals our bhakti is offered to a archa roop(Visible - idol) of Bhagwan. Im assuming BAPS also do this as i have seen pictures of murtis within their website(www.BAPS.org).

Shikshapatri Slokh 62 states - All shall worship with singular devotion only that form of Lord Shri Krishna which is installed by the Acharya and which is given to them for the purpose by him.All other forms of Lord Shri Krishna shall but be bowed and respected. (Please refer to Arthadeepika for more info)

Please correct me if i am wrong but i have not seen Acharyas performing and murti pratishthas of any murtis in BAPS mandir. So that would mean that according to the rules prescribed by Swaminarayan Bhagwan himself, (whom you supposedly perform your devotion towards) bhagwan is not actually residing in any of the BAPS murtis. So you may think you are performing bhakti for Swaminarayan Bhagwan but in actual fact it is not recieved by him because you have not gone about the correct way of Upaasna-Bhakti as prescribed by Swaminarayan Bhagwan.

Finally you say you follow five Vartamans, please get it right they are called five VRATMAAN. please refer to the fifth Vratmaan, which is Vatalvun Nahi ane Vatlaavun Nahi which means Not to perform irreligious, unsociable or immoral deeds or have others perform them.

As proven by Raj on previous posts BAPS do not follow Swaminarayan Bhagwans Siddhant, but instead choose to follow what they believe is correct instead. I could quote a number of Shikshapatri Slokhs which BAPS choose to ignore. Also same knowledge is given to new and existing devotees.

Based on this evidence alone it is clear BAPS do not follow the Fifth Vratmaan.

Another Comment made by an BAPS devotee - We gotta seem united to the world. Thats the only way this SAMPRADAY- MAy it be BAPS the GAdis wtaever can grow and we can speard the truth the Bhagawan Swaminarayan is Sarvopari.

Reply

This Sampradaya which is Uddhav Sampradaya (known and referred to as Swaminarayan Sampradaya)only consists of 2 Gadis according to the Shikshaptri never heard of BAPS ever being mentioned in there. Either you are not well versed in scriptures or you have completely lost it!

BAPS along with other cults which have left the Swaminarayan Sampradaya are Vimookhs(Those who have turned their backs on God)

I challenge anyone who disagrees!

Haribhagat 15:47, 6 February 2007 (UTC)

I disagree. I'm am not a vimookh and BAPS is not a cult, neither is any other groups of people that might have left the Swaminarayan Sampradaya. Me and you both having something in common. We both believe Swaminarayan Bhagwan to be God, thus making both of us to be devotees of God. Calling others vikmoohks because they feel different about God's teaching or have a different means of attaining God is ignorant. To some, it even hurts them. If one reads Gadhadã I-71 then one can realize that harming a devotee of God is more serious than the five grave sins.

Thank You for your reply anonymous BAPS devotee.(I admire your courage)

Let me try to explain by using scriptures(within the uddhav sampradaya). Shikshapatri slokh 207 states - All male and female followers of My Sampradâya shall consider all the males and females who live and behave against the precepts of this SHIKSHÂPATRI as outcaste from My Sampradâya.

BAPS devotees along with all other cults which have left the Sampradaya(set up by Shreeji maharaj himself) do not follow certain sections of the shikshapatri i.e Acharya Section. Now the question may arise that not all devotees within the uddhav sampradaya follow all the rules, this may be true however the difference being that we strive to follow, yet BAPS choose to ignore! So the slokh 207 mentioned above applies to yourself. Now you work out for yourself whether you are vimookh or not as i have laid down the reference for you.

Secondly you say we have something in common which is believing Swaminarayan Bhagwan to be God. If you follow BAPS then you do not follow Swaminarayan Bhagwan as you do not follow his Aagna as mentioned numerous times on this talk page. If you beleived someone to be God you would accept all his words to be true, but not pick and mix to what you want to follow. Let me give you an example, if your parents set rules and you did not abide by them would they be happy??

Finally i agree by taking avgun of a devotee is a big sin, but you are a devotee of BAPS not Swaminarayan Bhagwan as you do not follow his original doctrine. understand the meaning of Bhakt first. Bhakt in english one can translate to be Disciple or Devotee. One would assume that a Disciple/Devotee can only be given the title if he were to adhere to the commands given by his master, which you clearly do not abide by. Evidence given above is more than clear that you do not adhere to Bhagwans Aagna(Commands), meaning you are not actually a Bhakt. Have i insulted a devotee? NO, i have repeated infront of you what the shikshapatri and various other scriptures refer to you as, which is VIMOOKH! If you do not like being called that then follow you Bhagwans commands rather than following something which is flawed!

My intention here is not to show everyone apart from myself in a bad light, but rather to show what the original teachings of Swaminarayan Bhagwan are. Also to try and explain to those innocent souls who have been brainwashed by this rubbish that the Sampradaya that Maharaj set up himself still exists, so why do people feel the need to go elsewhere? Remember Satsang is like walking on the edge of a sword, one slip up may mean falling from the path of moksha(as prescribed by Swaminarayan Bhagwan)

Jai Swaminarayan

Haribhagat 15:47, 6 February 2007 (UTC)

I'm the anonymous replyer..so you insist on calling BAPS a cult but the only difference between a cult and a religion is the number of people following a beleif. BAPS has more followers than the Swaminarayan Sampraday thus BAPS is less of a cult. You say that I'm not a devotee of Swaminarayan Bhagwan but how can you say that when I beleive so? Just because I might prefer to worship in through another way doesn't make me any less of a devotee. Are you telling me that you've never commited a sin? You know as well as I do that you have. Right now you're not practicing ahinsa which is a vital concept in hindu religion. Since Swaminarayanism has its root deeply rooted in hindu scriptures, and you're not practicing ahinsa something REALLY BIG, you're not a swaminarayan let alone a hindu? You're concept of thinking is very elementary. The way you think makes everyone not a Swaminarayan, almost everyone at least, especially you. Although I might disagree with some other stuff you stated, I don't care what you think. God knows what I think and He knows what's in my heart, everything else doesn't matter. Have a good day.

Jai Swaminarayan

Just to remind you, none of my points or references have been answered in your post does this mean you do not have an answer and that i am right?? In order to avoid this confusion i think we should quote a section from the post and then reply, in this way users reading will be able to understand what we are talking about. You will be able to recognise my text from it being italics and i will quote your text and keep the original font, i hope this will make it easier.

so you insist on calling BAPS a cult but the only difference between a cult and a religion is the number of people following a beleif.

Definition of Cult - A religion or religious sect generally considered to be extremist or false, with its followers often living in an unconventional manner under the guidance of an authoritarian, charismatic leader. Obsessive, especially faddish, devotion to or veneration for a person, principle, or thing.

According to the Uddhav Sampradaya(Set up by Shreeji maharaj himself - Supposedly your Ishtadev) the highlighted sections is believed and proven to be true. Hence i have referred to BAPS as a cult.

BAPS has more followers than the Swaminarayan Sampraday thus BAPS is less of a cult.

Please prove that BAPS has more devotees than the Swaminarayan Sampradaya, and even if it does that does not mean it can rid itself of the term cult. To the true believers of Swaminarayan Bhagwan BAPS will always be a cult and referred to as VIMOOKH!

You say that I'm not a devotee of Swaminarayan Bhagwan but how can you say that when I beleive so? Just because I might prefer to worship in through another way doesn't make me any less of a devotee.

You are a devotee of Swaminarayan Bhagwan yet you do not follow his Aagna(Commands)? That is very strange. Surely a devotee accepts everything his Lord says? or have i got it wrong? I have proven in my previous post how i came to that conclusion, if you disagree refer back to that post then quote and debate. You may prefer to worship a different way, but that is not the way prescribed by Shreeji maharaj so then how can you be a devotee of his. So we come back to the conclusion that you are a devotee of BAPS and follow their rules.

Are you telling me that you've never commited a sin? You know as well as I do that you have.

When did i mention that i have not committed Sin??? Are you sure you are reading my post or just reading what you want to hear?? Also how is this related to our debate please explain?

Right now you're not practicing ahinsa which is a vital concept in hindu religion. Since Swaminarayanism has its root deeply rooted in hindu scriptures, and you're not practicing ahinsa something REALLY BIG, you're not a swaminarayan let alone a hindu? You're concept of thinking is very elementary.The way you think makes everyone not a Swaminarayan, almost everyone at least, especially you.

''Quote from my last post - Finally i agree by taking avgun of a devotee is a big sin, but you are a devotee of BAPS not Swaminarayan Bhagwan as you do not follow his original doctrine. understand the meaning of Bhakt first. Bhakt in english one can translate to be Disciple or Devotee. One would assume that a Disciple/Devotee can only be given the title if he were to adhere to the commands given by his master, which you clearly do not abide by. Evidence given above is more than clear that you do not adhere to Bhagwans Aagna(Commands), meaning you are not actually a Bhakt. Have i insulted a devotee? NO, i have repeated infront of you what the shikshapatri and various other scriptures refer to you as, which is VIMOOKH! If you do not like being called that then follow you Bhagwans commands rather than following something which is flawed!

In actual fact i do follow ahimsa, prove that i do not! you say im not a swaminarayan let alone a hindu. Yes im not a Swaminarayan, im actually a devotee of Bhagwan Swaminarayan. I am trying to explain the truth to you, and i am within my rights to do that with the use of strong words. Please refer to Vachanamrut Panchala 5 - One should have maan when droha is being done of Bhagwan or his saints. I beleive you are a drohi of swaminarayan bhagwan so i have every right to have maan and prove you wrong. Unlike you i accept all words of my Ishtadev. Even if i do not follow them today i will strive to do so tommorrow, whereas as you will never follow some parts! You are a DHONGI, you say you believe in swaminarayan bhagwan but actually do not follow all of his rules, you are a hypocrite along with the whole of BAPS.''

Although I might disagree with some other stuff you stated, I don't care what you think. God knows what I think and He knows what's in my heart, everything else doesn't matter. Have a good day.

Do you actually agree with anything i say?? remember i use scriptures to back up my points and you do not back yourself up at all. Yes Bhagwan knows that you do not follow the sampradaya(Uddhav) set up by himself and the aagna/niyams(Shikshapatri etc) He knows that you have gone against his teachings and everything else does not matter.

P.S I am having a great day

Jai Swaminarayan

Haribhagat 15:47, 6 February 2007 (UTC)

HOLD UP.

U WANTED PAGE NUMBER> HERE THEY ARE:

Rightyho folks, lets clear some things up, shall we? 1) Pramukh Swami is not treated as being the SAME as Shreeji Maharaj, we do not claim he IS Shreeji Maharaj, but he is worshipped on par with Him. Why? Have a read of the following Vachanamrut Vadtal 5: "Just as one performs mansi puja of God, if one also performs mandi puja of the ideal Bhakta along with God by offering him the prasad of God; and just as one prepares thal for God, similarly if one prepares a thal for God's ideal Bhakta and serves it to him; and just as one donates five rupees to God, similarly, if one also donates money to the great Sant - then by performing with extreme affection such similar service of God and the Sant who possesses the highest qualities, even if he is a devotee of the lowest type who was destined to become a devotee of the highest type after two lives, or after four lives, or after ten lives, or after a hundred lives, he will become a devotee of the highest calibre in this very life. Such are the fruits of the similar service of God and God's Bhakta." Any questions? 2) Regarding the split, I fail to see why there are any questions. Shastriji Maharaj felt Akshar-Purushottam upasana should be followed and obviously Vadtal mandir wasn't following it. He also felt some sadhus were slightly lax in their niyams (and judging by recent events, it seems he was right). So for these two reasons, he, five santos and a handful left to establish a branch of Swaminarayan Hinduism that HE felt was correct. Wether he was or not is not for you, me, or anybody to decide or state here on Wikipedia. We can debate the issue till the cows come home elsewhere, but HERE on THIS website, it its not anybody's place. Let each side post their own entries and discuss the issues elsewhere. Simple as that. 3) As for proof of Akshar-Purushottam, I suggest you read your Vachanamrut. Look these up for starters: Gadhada I-8, Gadhada I-54, Gadhada I-68, Gadhada I-71, and Vadtal-5. Also, before it is claimed that the BAPS translation is wrong, please note that it is a direct translation of the original authentic manuscript published in 1928 by Acharya Shripatiprasadji of Vadtal, so if you wish to refute the above Vachanamruts, read manuscript they were translated from. Whilst you're at it, look up Prakran 2 in the Bhaktachintamani by Sadguru Nityanand Swami :) Also, how about the following Bhajans composed during Bhagwan Swaminarayan's life by his own Nand Santos: 'Sukhdayak Re, Sachha Sant no Sang', 'Sant Jan, Soi Sada' by Muktanand Swami, 'Sant Param Hitakari', 'Balihari Mein Aisi Santki' by Brahmanand Swami, 'Eva Santni Balihari Re' by Premanand Swami, 'Dhanya Dhanya E Santne' by Nityanand Swami...shall I carry on? As you can see, all the above and many more (just give me the word and I'll post more...) highlight the need, greatness, and attributes of a Sant or Guru. Whilst the Acharayas Swaminarayan Bhagwan put in place are to be revered (they are, after all, part of the Dharmakul), if Maharaj is reffering to them in the Vachanamrut he says 'Acharya', therefore 'Guru' and 'Sant' cannot be taken to mean the Acharayas... 4) Lay off the kid. It's obvious he or she was a Balak or Balika judging by their comments on their sabha. There is no need to be rude to somebody younger than you, kids can be passionate about things and sometimes get carried away. Relax.

THESE PAGES NUMBERS ARE THANKS TO MY FRIEND FROM BAPS> THEY ARE ALSO POSTED AT THE TOP OF THE PAGE>

This is quite a long post but all people with any interest in Swaminarayan Bhagwan should read this!!!

It is clear that this BAPS person who is posting lacks the basic skills of reading and understanding English. I had said in my previous post that it would be easier if we quoted the section in question and then reply. I will now re-iterate this point again, if anyone wishes to debate with me then please quote and debate as it will be easier for myself and other users to follow. I shall refer to you as BAPS devotee.

Comment by BAPS devotee - HOLD UP. WHO DOES THAT IDIOT THINK HE IS BY CALLING BAPS A CULT. U WANTED PAGE NUMBER> HERE THEY ARE:

I have stated why i believe BAPS is a cult in my previous post. In fact it is you who is the idiot as you have not answered any of questions in my post and have tried to answer back with another question (your so called references?). Please answer back the questions i have asked, if you can because at the moment it seems as if you are avoiding them. Perhaps because you have no answer??

Shikshapatri slokh 9 states - And all those who disregard them (scriptures) and behave according to their own whims are indeed evil-minded and shall verily meet with great miseries in this life and the life beyond. In the Gujarati text Kubuddhi term is used. Buddhi means intelligence and Kubuddhi means unintelligent/idiotic. It is clear you do not accept certain sections of the shikshapatri and act according to what you feel is correct. The shikshapatri is backing up my point. Please try to back yours up!

You say I wanted a page number? Actually I wanted answers to the questions i asked, when have asked for a page number and for which book? Are you sure you understand what is being discussed here? Do you want me to simplify my English? Please let me know as it seems you are struggling to grasp the concept of this debate.

Comment by BAPS devotee (near end of post) - THESE PAGES NUMBERS ARE THANKS TO MY FRIEND FROM BAPS> THEY ARE ALSO POSTED AT THE TOP OF THE PAGE>

I think you will find the whole post is by your friend from BAPS and not just the page numbers. In regards to the actual post the questions posed have been answered by Raj already. Note that your friend from BAPS did not have a reply to Raj's answers. Perhaps you should read this page before you type this will save confusion. However you have posted the quotes so i will oblige and answer.

Comment by BAPS devotee - 1) Pramukh Swami is not treated as being the SAME as Shreeji Maharaj, we do not claim he IS Shreeji Maharaj, but he is worshipped on par with Him. Why? Have a read of the following Vachanamrut Vadtal 5: "Just as one performs mansi puja of God, if one also performs mandi puja of the ideal Bhakta along with God by offering him the prasad of God; and just as one prepares thal for God, similarly if one prepares a thal for God's ideal Bhakta and serves it to him; and just as one donates five rupees to God, similarly, if one also donates money to the great Sant - then by performing with extreme affection such similar service of God and the Sant who possesses the highest qualities, even if he is a devotee of the lowest type who was destined to become a devotee of the highest type after two lives, or after four lives, or after ten lives, or after a hundred lives, he will become a devotee of the highest calibre in this very life. Such are the fruits of the similar service of God and God's Bhakta." Any questions?

Yes just one question, how does this Vachanamrut justify worshipping Pramukh Swami on par with Shreeji maharaj. Maharaj mentions ideal bhakta and saints. At maharajs time there were many of these and today there are many. Imagine if people took each of them and treated them like pramukh swami is this mahrajs orders? Essence of this Vachanamrut is by serving devotees and Sant we will gain their qualities and they will bless us, as bhagwan is present in Murtis,Acharyas,Santos and Haribhaktos - Take a read of Nishkhulanand Kavya(Purushottam Prakash). In this way serving a bhakt and sant is similar.

Shikshapatri slokh 115 states - Lord Shree Krishna, his incarnations and his images are alone worthy of meditation, therefore they alone shall be meditated upon, but one shall never meditate upon a person, a deity or Jeeva (a being) even though he may be a profound devotee of Lord Shree Krishna or a Brahmveta.

This clears slokh clears up any misconception about anyone being worshipped on par with Bhagwan. Finally Pramukh Swami has not taken Bhagwati Diksha according to Swaminarayan Bhagwans Instructions in the Shikshpatri. So in actual fact he not even a sant in the sampradaya, so how can he be worshipped on par with shreeji maharaj?

2) Regarding the split, I fail to see why there are any questions. Shastriji Maharaj felt Akshar-Purushottam upasana should be followed and obviously Vadtal mandir wasn't following it. He also felt some sadhus were slightly lax in their niyams (and judging by recent events, it seems he was right). So for these two reasons, he, five santos and a handful left to establish a branch of Swaminarayan Hinduism that HE felt was correct. Wether he was or not is not for you, me, or anybody to decide or state here on Wikipedia. We can debate the issue till the cows come home elsewhere, but HERE on THIS website, it its not anybody's place. Let each side post their own entries and discuss the issues elsewhere. Simple as that.

Where is it mentioned that Akshar-Purushottam upasana should be followed? Of course Vadtal mandir and also rest of sampradaya wasnt following this, it is not what has been prescribed by maharaj. Sadhus lax in niyams? This can't be proved at the time of Yagnapurush(shastriji). In regards to recent events(im assuming your talking about the saints who were ex-communicated for breaking their niyams), well i dont think you can use this point to prove that Yagnapurush was correct in leaving the Sampradaya set up by maharaj himself.(Note you cannot merely go on these kind of stories to prove whether you are correct or not, truth lies with siddhant. Siddhant points towards Uddhav sampradaya set up by maharaj himself, the fact that shastriji left just shows that he turned his back on maharajs aagna making him and the sanstha Vimookh). Yagnapurush may feel he is correct but the fact still remains he went against Shreeji Maharajs Aagna and then taught his own method of Upaasna, if this isnt droha of maharaj then i dont know what is? Please let me know where else we can debate? On this website It is my place because I am writing about the truth according to Swaminarayan Bhagwan yet you are not!

Comment by BAPS devotee - 3) As for proof of Akshar-Purushottam, I suggest you read your Vachanamrut. Look these up for starters: Gadhada I-8, Gadhada I-54, Gadhada I-68, Gadhada I-71, and Vadtal-5.

Right we get to the interesting stuff now(so called proof of worshipping akshar purushottam?)

1st reference (Gadhada I-8 or GP-8) – No mention of worshipping akshar purushottam. Let me guess what you are trying to refer to. Last section of vachanamrut which states stay in the company of saints and avoid company of kusangis(bad company). When a person leaves company of bad and keeps company of saints then the attatchment towards body and its relatives will disappear, and love for bhagwan will develop along with unattatchement towards everything apart from bhagwan. This is true by keeping association of saints we will become stronger from their words and their actions. If we keep bad company we may fall from satsang. Maharaj doesn’t mention that akshar should be worshipped along with param tattva(shreeji maharaj), nor does this vachanamrut justify worshipping saints.

2nd reference (Gadhada I-54 or GP-54) – No mention of worshipping akshar purushottam. I think you want me to look at Shreeji maharajs answer to muktanand swamis question. Muktanand swamis question was how to nourish and advance Bhagvat dharma and how to open ones door to ultimate salvation? Shreeji maharajs answer Bhagvat dharma will nourished by associating with an ekantik sant. Also doors to salvation can be opened through their association. This is referring to an Ekantik Sant. There could be many of these in the world. There needs to be many as if there was only 1(as BAPS suggests – Pramukh Swami) then when would devotees have chance to associate? Point to be noted is that doors to salvation are opened but not guaranteed by sant, at the end of the day Shreeji maharaj decides who recieves moksha – Not Gopalanand Swami, Brahmanand Swami, Muktanand Swami or even Gunatitanand Swami!

3rd reference (Gadhada I-68 or GP-68) – Again no mention of worshipping akshar purushottam. Vachanamrut explain glory of saints and by acknowledging them to be divine we can become like them. What must be rembered is no devotee of Uddhav Sampradaya is disputing the greatness of saints, but in no scripture does it say that saints can be worshipped on par with bhagwan or that akshar and purushottam should be worshipped together, please find a quote if you can!

4th reference (Gadhada I-71 or GP-71) – Again no mention of worshipping akshar purushottam. Perhaps you would like me to read last few sentences which read - the lord accepts all the services of his devotees so that they can experience eternal bliss. Therefore a devotee of bhagwan should understand that it is the lord himself who has descended on this earth along with his akshardham. You must also explain this phenomenon to others in this manner. Bhagwan has come on this earth to give his devotees bliss along with him he has brought his akshardham. BAPS devotees will be all over this section like a rash. However maharaj does not state that Akshar and Purushottam must be worshipped together. All he has said is he has come down with his akshardham. So the BAPS devotees misinterpreting this to mean Gunatitanand swami then you are wrong. Find me one quote within the vachanmrut of maharaj stating that akshardham is gunatitanand swami.

5th reference (Vadtal-5) I have talked about this vachanamrut earlier in this post. Finally what must be rembered is no devotee of Uddhav Sampradaya is disputing the greatness of saints, but in no scripture does it say that saints can be worshipped on par with bhagwan or that akshar and purushottam should be worshipped together, please find a quote if you can! It is misinterpretation of Scriptures by Kapti and Agnaani people such as your so called gurus that has blinded you from the actual truth of scriptures which is clear to be seen by any impartial view, translation and explanation.

Comment by BAPS devotee - Also, before it is claimed that the BAPS translation is wrong, please note that it is a direct translation of the original authentic manuscript published in 1928 by Acharya Shripatiprasadji of Vadtal, so if you wish to refute the above Vachanamruts, read manuscript they were translated from.

Let me remind you that Acharya Shripatiprasadji is the 5th Acharya on the vadtal side, and BAPS stopped believing in the Acharyas from the time of the 3/4th Acharya. So why are you referring to an Acharya to prove your point when you do not believe in his authority?

Comment by BAPS devotee - Whilst you're at it, look up Prakran 2 in the Bhaktachintamani by Sadguru Nityanand Swami

I think you will find that Bhaktchintamani is a volume within the Nishkhulanand Kavya composed by Nishkhulanand Swami NOT Nityanand Swami. In reference to Prakran 2 Sants are referred to nothing else. no mention of Akshar Purushottam.

Whilst you’re at it, look up Prakran 37-41 in the Purushottam Prakaash(Nishkhulanand Kavya) composed by Nishkhulanand Swami. Mahimaa of Acharyas of Dharmakul set up by Maharaj himself is written there. It mentions you must stay under Acharyas if you desire moksha. Read it, might be an eye opener!

Comment by BAPS devotee - Also, how about the following Bhajans composed during Bhagwan Swaminarayan's life by his own Nand Santos: 'Sukhdayak Re, Sachha Sant no Sang', 'Sant Jan, Soi Sada' by Muktanand Swami, 'Sant Param Hitakari', 'Balihari Mein Aisi Santki' by Brahmanand Swami, 'Eva Santni Balihari Re' by Premanand Swami, 'Dhanya Dhanya E Santne' by Nityanand Swami...shall I carry on? As you can see, all the above and many more (just give me the word and I'll post more...) highlight the need, greatness, and attributes of a Sant or Guru. Whilst the Acharayas Swaminarayan Bhagwan put in place are to be revered (they are, after all, part of the Dharmakul), if Maharaj is reffering to them in the Vachanamrut he says 'Acharya', therefore 'Guru' and 'Sant' cannot be taken to mean the Acharayas

Great Kirtans. Yes kirtans sang by his own nand santos have no mention of worshipping akshar purushottam!! So how does BAPS rectify this problem, they create new ones by their own saints(who have not been initiated into the swaminarayan sect). Kirtans highlight need of sant and guru no one is disputing this. No one is saying Sant = Acharya directly. Sant/Satpurush are play an important role in the sampradaya. In the same way Acharyas are essential in sampradaya set up by maharaj and cannot be replace by sant/haribhakt as leader e.g Pramukh Swami, that is if we really accept Swaminarayan Bhagwan as our Ishtadev and follow all his commands!

The BAPS devotee’s final comment was something like "Oh buddy now it’s on", however the person has edited their post. Conveniently deleting the sentence where I am referred to as an idiot. I was going to say i am not your buddy and what do you mean by it's on? that now the battle is on or now you are going to be challenged? If so then you are not living up to it. Your attempts are weak and baseless!!!

I look forward to hearing a reply, perhaps a sensible one. Try quoting what I have written and then arguing your point. I think this might help you in your attempt to win the debate, because at the moment you are failing miserably!!!

I will now paste some quotes from the BAPS page on wikipedia :-

Quote number 1 - Shastriji Maharaj- who separated from the original sect in order to propagate the true philosophy of the Faith.

Are you sure he was seperated? According to history of sampradaya and Bochasan Bandh Itihaas Yagnapurush was ex-communicated. As for the part of propagating the true philosophy of the faith, you are insulting Swaminarayan bhagwan. He did not know that Acharyas will become corrupt? I thought we believe Swaminarayan Bhagwan to be antaryaami? If Bhagwan knew Acharyas would become corrupt and stop the preaching of the so called true upaasna(akshar-purushottam) then why would he establish them in the first place? Just so Yagnapurush could split and set something new up? Why didnt maharaj make all devotees aware of this in the scriptures? Why has maharaj never mentioned worshipping akshar and purushottam together? Is it a secret only some devotees get to know it and not other? Then what of sarva jiva hitavaha?

This is all manufactured rubbish, so that the saints (BAPS) in question can be praised and get a position which they would never be able to achieve in the uddhav sampradaya. As true heirs to Swaminarayan Bhagwan is what he set up himself – Dharmavanshi Acharyas! You know yourself that there is too much praise of saints in your sect and not merely enough of bhagwan! For example look at the main page of your cult’s website - I see 2 pictures of pramukh swami and not even 1 of swaminarayan bhagwan, and you say you believe in swaminarayan bhagwan???

Quote number 2 - Today the Sanstha(sect) is led by Pramukh Swami Maharaj. Pramukh Swami Maharaj is the fifth spiritual successor of Bhagwan Swaminarayan and the present leader of Bochasanwasi Akshar Purushottam Sanstha(Hereby disregarding the Acharya lineage, set up originally by Bhagwan Swaminarayan himself, however in accordance with the Shikshapatri, a core scripture of the Sanstha dictated by Bhagwan Swaminarayan himself.

You mean Cult instead of sect right? Where did Pramukh Swami get the title of Maharaj from? Is this in accordance to the teachings of Shreeji Maharaj? Even the Paramhansas werent referred to as Maharaj, and Pramukh Swami is nothing in comparison to the Paramhansas(Note – Saints who followed all of Maharajs Aagna unlike Pramukh Swami). How is Pramukh Swami the Fifth spiritual sucessor of Bhagwan Swaminarayan? Can we have some quotes to back this up? I can find Quotes to back up my Acharyas authority in accordance to Swaminarayan Bhagwans teachings, question is can you? The last section is hilarious. You say you direagrd Acharyas,however in accordance to with the Shikshapatri. I don’t know which shikshapatri you read, but the one I read says Dharmavanshi Acharyas are the leaders of the Sampradaya(True spiritual succession according to Swaminarayan Bhagwan). According Yagnapurush things may be different, but who cares what Shastriji, Yogiji, Pramukh, Doctor, IP etc think. They are not important! Swaminarayan Bhagwans words should be accepted as FINAL AUTHORITY!!!

Comment from the top of this talk page by a BAPS devotee(i think) - BAP visitor and Vachinamrut Scholar would appreciate a private or open diaologue with anyone about SN. Thank you. Mike Hooten, Concord NC, mlhooten@gmail.com

I think you will find that your cult is called BAPS and not BAP. Wow, you are a Vachinamrut Scholar? How can you be a scholar of a scripture if you cant even spell the name of it properly. Note the scripture is called Vachanamrut! Why private dialogue? I have asked the questions now you try answering them Mike Hooten. Im assuming by SN you mean Swaminarayan Bhagwan? You are a scholar in Vachanamrut and yet you refer to Swaminarayan Bhagwan as SN? You people fail to amaze me.

I have openly challenged all BAPS devotees and as of yet no one has answered my questions or challenged me in any way. Come on get some knowledgeable people on here, get your head devotees or head saints. At the end of the day True Siddhant(philosophy) of Swaminarayan Bhagwan is on my side. As long as i am following the Uddhav Sampradaya and you follow BAPS, you or any other person will not be able to defeat me!!!

Why follow something different when the Original Sect(Uddhav Sampradaya) set up by Swaminarayan Bhagwan exists!!

Jay Swaminarayan

Haribhagat 15:47, 6 February 2007 (UTC)

one sees two spiritual successors, but what about the current acharaya (Pamukh Swami). He seems to be the one who has spread internationally, Swaminarayan sect. --Hydman 08:51, 8 September 2006 (UTC)

Pramukh Swami is not current acharya of the Swaminarayan sect, he may be regarded as acharya of the BAPS sect. Swaminarayan Bhagwan in the Shikshapatri has said that the acharyas are householders. So i don't think they refer to pramukh swami as an acharya. He has spread the name of swaminarayan, i agree. However he does not act in accordance to the rules prescribed by Lord Swaminarayan in the scriptures - so in reality he does not believe in Swaminarayan. He has not taken initiation from the Acharyas(as stated in the Shikshapatri - the words of Lord Swaminarayan) In my view it is a cult which split from the original sect, so that the saints could achieve a higher position i.e Yagnapurush(shastriji - who was later ex-communicated from the sect). He knew that within the Swaminarayan sect he would not be able to achieve such a high position of control as all rights had been given to the Acharyas by Lord Swaminarayan. He left and set about BAPS as a business! They have been successful, there is no doubting that. Unfortunately for the innocent followers of this cult have been led to believe there is salvation for them, but according to the scriputres of Lord Swaminarayan they will not achieve Salvation. Any person with the least bit of scriptural knowledge in the Swaminarayan sect would be able to work out what is the truth and what is not. Again unfortuantely these people have been brainwashed and the so called divinity of Pramukh Swami has been drilled into their minds. Even though they cannot really vouch for his divinity. By going against Lord Swaminarayan's commands they have turned their backs on him(VIMOOKHS). It is said in our scriptures that VIMOOKHS will not achieve Moksha for a long while. Lord swaminarayan has said i will be able to forgive those who ruin their own chance towards salvation, but those who ruin the chances of others will never be forgiven i.e Pramukh Swami, Yogiji, Shastriji and Bhagatji. They have led people astray from the true teaching of Swaminarayan Bhagwan, for this reason they will never forgiven. In scriptures it goes on to say they will become Brahmrakshas and suffer in pain for many years.

Note if my previous posts were wrong then the BAPS devotees would challenge me. However they have not done so. Why? Because they can't. Scriptures cannot be any clearer. Their cult is based on an interpretation of the scriptures and even then it is flawed! As you can see in the debate above they havent even attempted to answer my questions and pose other questions instead. I have answered all their questions and there is still no reply. Either they should reply back or it should be accepted on wikipedia that BAPS is a cult and do not act in accordance to the rules prescribed by Lord Swaminarayan. Once again i challenge all BAPS devotees!

Haribhagat 15:47, 6 February 2007 (UTC)

"Note if my previous posts were wrong then the BAPS devotees would challenge me. However they have not done so. Why? Because they can't."

I reffer you to the previous BAPS poster who said that Wikipedia was not the place to be having such discussions. The 'discussion' sections of articles are to discuss editing issues. If you would like to discuss ANY of the above BAPS/Vadtal/Ahmedabad issues, please feel free to e-mail me at: ashirwadpatel@googlemail.com Jai Swaminarayan, Ashirwad Patel

Comment by BAPS devotee - I reffer you to the previous BAPS poster who said that Wikipedia was not the place to be having such discussions. The 'discussion' sections of articles are to discuss editing issues. If you would like to discuss ANY of the above BAPS/Vadtal/Ahmedabad issues, please feel free to e-mail me at: ashirwadpatel@googlemail.com Jai Swaminarayan, Ashirwad Patel

As of yet no moderator of wikipedia has denied anyone of discussing this issue. The BAPS poster has said this to save himself as he could not answer the questions posed! What are you scared of? That you will be proved wrong? Try to answer the questions posed, perhaps with scriptural reference. I will debate on here for all to see the truth, as i know privately you will not accept the truth.

I would not like to discuss anything! I have posted what i have wanted to say on this talk page, if you have any input please do post.

Jai Swaminarayan

Haribhagat 15:47, 6 February 2007 (UTC)

Ok the main reason this fued is goin on is that BAPS should be put on the Wikipedia Swaminarayan page. If you type in Christianity then it just doesnt show The Catholic chruch. It shows the other sects that have seperated from the Catholic Church. So if you are going to do that then u must have BAPS and others on this page.

Take it up with the moderators, they have seemed to to accept what is on the page. Also please don't back down, debate and try to prove that your cult is true. What has christianity to do with Swaminarayan? I have proven that BAPS is wrong maybe they haven't done that on christianity page. In my opinion the only way the moderators will allow a space on the page is if you can prove that BAPS is what Bhagwan Swaminarayan prescribed. Both you and i know that the name of BAPS will not be mentioned in any scripture. So stop these petty comments. If you are strong enough to debate with me please try, if you can't then your comments will not be considered on this page.

Jay Swaminarayan

Haribhagat 15:47, 6 February 2007 (UTC)

I've got a question about ISSO's view on Swaminarayan... Why is he not in mukhya sthaan if you believe him to be supreme god? What's this about Narnarayan and LaxmiNarayan? And what's this about Krishna being above Swaminarayan?

I would just like to clear up one thing. ISSO is an organisation within the NarNarayan Dev Gadi (Amdavad)set up to improve satsang outside india. Basically Bhagwan Swaminarayan led a sect called the Uddhav Sampradaya. Now that Uddhav Sampradaya(known and referred to as Swaminarayan Sampradaya) was divided into 2 Gadis by Swaminarayan Bhagwan in Vadtal. The 2 Gadius are NarNarayan Dev Gadi (Amdavad) and LaxmiNarayan Dev Gadi (Vadtal).

Your post is confusing, please explain further

Haribhagat 15:47, 6 February 2007 (UTC)

Purna Purushottam Bhagwan Shree Swaminarayan, My humble and divine respect towards H.H.1008 Acharya Shree Koshalendraprasadji Maharaj of the NarNarayan Dev Gadi, Brahmnishtaay Santo’s, distinguished guests, and fellow Haribhakto’s….. Jay Shree Swaminarayan.

I must say its good to be back to this forum where petty arguments never come to a conclusion but that is something I wish to change but only with the help of all the people whom have made contributions to this discussion.

At this currant point in time I think the Bhagwan Swaminarayan page is set at a benchmark which can be accepted by all if anyone disagrees with me than please speak up now and tell me all of your comments, questions, opinions etc but this is only regarding the Wikipedia page in due time I will back up my arguments with aspects of different religious sects backgrounds as I have done in the past.

So feel free to fire in with your questions/opinions but please don’t make any changes to the main Bhagwan Swaminarayan page until these discussions are resolved.

Jay Shree Swaminarayan Maha Prabu Raj - सनातन धर्म 22:11, 18 September 2006 (UTC)

Hi, just a couple of issues I thought I'd raise:
1) In response to Haribhagat's recent post, strictly speaking Wikipedia has no moderators. This may be why 'nobody has raised any objections'. The whole point of Wikipedia is that it is contributed to by anybody and everybody, and the rules of Wikipedia state that no individual or organisation can claim to 'own' or 'be responsible' for any page. Therefore anybody has the right to edit any wikipedia article, and simply being a Swaminarayan devotee doesn't give anybody any extra rights over this page (in terms of Wikipedia, anyway).
2) IF people aren't going to be fair and give each Swaminarayan organisation a space on this article, at least give them a link to their own articles where you have mentioned their names. BAPS is mentioned towards the end of the Swaminarayan page. There is no harm in adding two square brackets around the word to provide a link to the BAPS article.
I don't really wish to be drawn into an argument regarding the above. Bhudiya2 was courteous enough to ask for opinions from all parties and I'm simply stating them. I realise that some individuals seem to relish flaming others on here into pointless arguments, but I don't really wish to be a part of such childishness because we all know that nobody from either side is ever going to back down, and nobody expects anybody to change their entire system of spiritual and philosophical beliefs because of a debate on a wikipedia discussion page. Its not the first time such debates have occured and it won't be the last. Please accept this and let it go. 86.134.109.197 11:46, 21 September 2006 (UTC)

Jay Swaminarayan brethren, I appreciate you taking your time out to writ this out I will try and answer the questions respectively as it was written to the best of my ability.

First question was :

1) In response to Haribhagat's recent post, strictly speaking Wikipedia has no moderators. This may be why 'nobody has raised any objections'. The whole point of Wikipedia is that it is contributed to by anybody and everybody, and the rules of Wikipedia state that no individual or organisation can claim to 'own' or 'be responsible' for any page. Therefore anybody has the right to edit any wikipedia article, and simply being a Swaminarayan devotee doesn't give anybody any extra rights over this page (in terms of Wikipedia, anyway).

My answer: 1) To a certain extent there are moderators on this site but none specifically for the Swaminarayan page or its associated pages and yes people have actually raised objections and have changed the page to their own accord. Than you said” rules of Wikipedia state that no individual or organisation can claim to 'own' or 'be responsible' for any page” this is correct and it applies throughout the whole Wikipedia site including the BAPS page because I have seen a few times people try to edit it by saying it is an off-shoot of the original Swaminarayan Sampraday and how the swami who started it was excommunicated from the original Swaminarayan Sampraday etc, these edits have been reverted straight away is there anyway of explaining this?. Regarding Haribhaga’ts recent post, I don’t see anything opinion based he was just clarifying the existence for the ISSO organisation and the Swaminarayan Gadi’s.

2) IF people aren't going to be fair and give each Swaminarayan organisation a space on this article, at least give them a link to their own articles where you have mentioned their names. BAPS is mentioned towards the end of the Swaminarayan page. There is no harm in adding two square brackets around the word to provide a link to the BAPS article.

My answer: Please explain to me what is being fair because the people on the BAPS site are not being fair as I explained earlier and just for the record you say that all different sects should have their own links and info on the Bhagwan Swaminarayan page this really can not be done because the Bhagwan Swaminarayan page is a page about Bhagwan Swaminarayan and his Original Sampraday as created by him, this was decided by the moderators of Wikipedia when the Shree Swaminarayan Sampraday page and Bhagwan Swaminarayan were merged into one and to clarify this they made the Shree Swaminarayan Sampraday page permanently un-editable and redirected to the Bhagwan Swaminarayan page. Also at this point it was decided for the different sects and faith’s to have their own pages e.g. BAPS page. When you mention the problem of the brackets around the word, this once again is very fortunate for BAPS to be even mentioned on this page because firstly they do have their own page maintained and controlled by them and secondly they are a different sanstha, they believe in their Akshar Purushottam and just like all other sanstha’s and sects they are not part of the Original Swaminarayan Sampraday.

I must say I liked reading your last comment and it is true we should not be drawn in to petty arguments so I hope this has helped builed a foundation for the progress of the Bhagwan Swaminarayan page and to put a stop to the arguments.

Jay Shree Swaminarayan Maha Prabu Raj - सनातन धर्म 21:03, 21 September 2006 (UTC)

Hello All, I feel this page on "Bhagwan Swaminarayan" has been hi-jacked by the Vadtal and Ahmdabda Gadi and someone from wikipedia must try and moderate the pages. Thank You - NT

Jay Swaminarayan brethren, I'm sorry to hear this is how you feel, even after the explanation I had given to explain why the page is, how it is, either you can read my answers again to get a clear understanding or tell me why you think its "hi-jacked" because this is absurd behaviour.

Jay Swaminarayan Raj - सनातन धर्म 12:59, 27 September 2006 (UTC)

Hi there, just a small suggestion for the "Immediate spiritual successors" section. The last sentence states "It is worthwhile noting here that despite instructions from Lord Swaminarayan in the Shikshapatri, Pramukh Swami has not received diksha or inititiation from a bonafide Acharya of the Swaminarayan Sampraday and the devotees therefore question whether he really does possess the virtues that Lord Swaminarayan mentions in the Vachanamrut."

I suggest adding 'of the Original Swaminarayan sect' between 'devotees' and 'therefore' - make italic so you can spot the place. The reason for this suggestion is that it is members of the Original Swaminarayan sect that question this, not devotees of BAPS, however the statement does not reflect this. BAPS devotees do not question the issue of initiation, thats accepted fact. If anybody has any objections please let me know. Regards, Dylanpatel 14:40, 4 October 2006 (UTC)

Jay Swaminarayan Haribhagat

I’m not yet saying disagree to it but I have just have one comment to make which is how can this edit be justified because its stating a fact not opinion since it does very well state in the Shikshapatri and other shashtra’s that all santo's, celibates and haribhakto’s of the Sampraday must receive there Diksha or Guru mantra from one of the two Dhama Vanshi Acharyas. So there is not really a question of weather Pramukh Swami has received diksha from the Acharya because it’s a well known fact to all that he has not, so how can you say only devotee’s of the Original Swaminarayan Sampraday are aware of this?

Raj - सनातन धर्म 20:09, 4 October 2006 (UTC)

Thank your for your reply. If you re-read my post you will find that I didn't say that only devotees of the Original Swaminarayan Sampraday are 'aware of this'. I said only devotees of the Original Swaminaryan Sampraday question this. This is true, is it not? BAPS followers see no issue in the fact that Pramukh Swami Maharaj received diksha from his Guru as opposed to an Acharya. Regardless of whether that is right of them or not, and regardless of whether or not Pramukh Swami Maharaj has received true diksha, it is undisputable fact that it is devotees of the Original Swaminarayan Sampraday who question the issue as opposed to BAPS devotees who do not see it as a problem. My suggested edit is simply a reflection of this. It would in no way be adding false statements to the article. Regards, Dylanpatel 22:29, 4 October 2006 (UTC)

Hi guys can i ask who put this on " ==See Also== *[[BAPS]] and why we cant take it off because it is unrelated so where did it come from?

Well it is related. You are welcome to discuss changes to the article here, but removing content without comment is considered vandalism. Also please consider signing in, and post ypur comments to the bottom of the page. Sfacets 09:35, 31 October 2006 (UTC)

Does any one has information regarding orignal swaminarayan sampraday and vimukh (BAPS) court case. The decission was vimukh(BAPS)can't use name of swaminarayan for their orgainzation.

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