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Here is the link to the Sudeten German Landsmannschaft, representing the people ethnically cleansed in 1945-47: http://www.sudeten.de/bas/index_b.htm — Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.29.85.7 (talk) 03:47, 1 June 2003 (UTC)
I am not a Czech or Slovak or (Sudeten) German but the article is really a piece of Czech propaganda. Also anyone who is familiar with the situation to any extent (say who looks at what happened in Southern Moravia in and after 1945) would not just understand but would also have no problems with using such desriptive terms as ethnic cleansing and murder and mass expropriation of property (including personal stuff like watches from hundreds of thousands of people) which all occurred on a scale quite unprecedented by historic standard. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 88.146.176.26 (talk) 12:09, 1 November 2011 (UTC)
They have links in English, too. The entry is barebones right now, and reflects partly the skewed version of what an average American would have learned about the area (meaning, there is a lot of the complexity missing). [Thomas, user] —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.29.85.7 (talk • contribs) 03:47, 1 June 2003 (UTC)
I think there should be information included about the period just after the war, when many Sudeten Germans were forced to leave to Germany. Pascal 08:01, 4 Oct 2003 (UTC)
I've tried to make the article as neutral as I can. For some events which are possible source of conflict I've used words from Czech-German declaration of 1997.
Please correct bad English freely, but please dont revert to "brutal expulsion and murders", use of term "ethnically cleansed" and generaly expressions which are usualy proposed by Sudeten German Landsmannschaft and oposed by Czechs. If radical changes of meaning or expressive words occur, I'm going to place article to NPOV dispute. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 81.27.192.19 (talk • contribs) 21:25, 7 February 2004 (UTC)
- You are absolutely correct, "ethnic cleansing" did not occur. Why, only 2,232,544 Germans were forcibly transferred out of Czechoslovakia and 244,000 were allowed to remain. Using the term "ethnic cleansing" probably wouldn't apply until 97% or so of those 244,000 had also been forcibly removed. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.14.217.231 (talk) 22:51, 26 July 2008 (UTC)
As far as I understood, the Munich Conference was on September 29, 1938. Mussolini, Daladier, and Chamberlain gave Hitler permission at that conference to occupy the Sudetenland, in exchange for the guarantee that his ambitions were satiated. The Germans occupied the Sudetenland on October 10, 1938... not 1939, as is written in the article. I want a verification before I correct this. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 165.123.189.12 (talk • contribs) 08:07, 3 March 2004 (UTC)
- the article looks correct, speaking of takeover of the germanpopulated regions in october, and occupation of the rest of the czech country in march. See the map on de:Sudetenland. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Guidod (talk • contribs) 06:33, 23 September 2004 (UTC)
The latent Czech Nationalism - rampant in this article- is hard to stomach.
I quote: "By the Versailles Treaty, the lands of Bohemia and Moravia became part of the new state of Czechoslovakia. The controversies between the Czechs and the Germans intensified in the 1930s and the German minority (which was actually a majority in the border regions, for which the term Sudetenland was coined), led by the Nazi politician Konrad Henlein, was gradually escalating its demands."
This does not mention the fact, that the second largest ethnicity - the Germans - was not given any choice and forced into this new state, without given the chance to practise their right of self-determination, promised by US President Wilson after WW I. It is disingenuous to say "the controversies between the Czechs and the Germans intensifited in the 1930s..." German was not even made one of the offical languages of the new state, even though there were 3 1/2 million German speakers in the country. Had the German ethnicity been accepted as one of the "official people" of the new state, as equals, they would certainly not have felt as alienated and would not have made them susceptible to the lies and hate of the Nazi demagogues.
Just my 2 cents!
Luke, Pacific Grove, CA, US —Preceding unsigned comment added by 216.228.12.58 (talk • contribs) 19:22, 8 May 2005 (UTC)
- Wow, I almost hear Alfred de Zayas (and/or contemporary propaganda) from your words. For more in-depth treatment of the topic, read Germans in Czechoslovakia (1918-1938). It does not make sense to include that article here again.
- The relationship was complicated, but the sentece included here is generaly true.
- (The Relationship was not complicated the Chech just shot the German dead when they protested Peacefully without arms 1918, so later they came with armes the Chech hat the coice )Johann
- The right of self-determination is a nice concept, but if that was noted, it should be also explained the Czech part of the states was created in thousand-year-old boundaries of Bohemia, which was quite reasonable choice. On big part of the territory the population were mixed, many Germans were settled in enclaves etc.
- The dissatisfaction of Germans was huge after the creation of Czechoslovakia - but probably mainly because of loosing of priviledged position they had in Austria-Hungary, and because of land reform. But it settled much during 20s. Czechoslovak officials were supporters of minority rigts, most notably Masaryk. I don't know how you understand the meaning of "official language", but Germans were able to use German everywhere from schools (including university) to administration. Their situation was much better that that of Czechs and Slovaks in Austria-Hungary.
- It is easy to speculate how would they have felt if..., on the other hand, it can be seen as a poor excuse for supporting Hitler. At the end of the 20s reasonable German parties participaded at the (democratic) governement of Czechoslovakia, and when Hitler took power in Germany, many Germans found temporary refuge in Prague.
- --Wikimol 09:22, 9 May 2005 (UTC)
- Hi
- I don't know how you understand the meaning of "official language"
- I think it's quite obvious if you compare Belgium, where German is an official language while only 1% of the population speaks German.
- In Czechoslovakia Czech and Slovak were official languages, while the german speaking population was bigger than the Slovakian one.
- Cheers, Rolf (Hessen/Germany/Europe) —Preceding unsigned comment added by 84.167.151.209 (talk • contribs) 14:01, 9 May 2005 (UTC)
Hi, sorry, but I still dont understand whats the point?
I don't know how the laws about languages were phrased, but my point was, as I wrote, most Germans were able to speak German all the time, including official communication with authorities, public funded schools, universities etc. I doubt there were claims about Czech and Slovak beeing the first and second language - AFAIK Czech and Slovak were considered forms of one "Czechoslovakian" language, and the same hold for ethnicity.
Certianly, minority rights of Germans in 1919-1938 Czechoslovakia were not protected to the same degree as they probably are in today's Belgium, especially if compared to the size of the minority. Czechoslovakia was not idyllic, but was much better than any state before it or after it on the same territory, and much better than its neighbours.
Btw, if German was in some aspects "not equal" , IMO the reason wasn't something anti-German, but worries it would open a big can of worms - if German, what about Hungarian, Ruthene, Ukrainian, Polish?
--Wikimol 22:21, 9 May 2005 (UTC)
- Hi
- I'm not critizising you, it was just about what "official language" means in a NPOV.
- If you want my political opinion: Switzerland might be a much more aproriate and older example, where the Francoswiss population has in percentage about the same size as the Germans in Bohemia had. I agree with you that it didn't realy make sense to subdivide such an old region like Bohemia in "ethnically homogene" little nation states even if the majority of the German Bohemians wanted to belong to Austria. But ignoring one quarter of the population in what mainly symbolises a country - the official language - (ignoring that the whole old "KuK" infrastructure and administration was still in German) is IMHO notable.
- Do I have a neutral point of view? I think yes, because the way how the huge Russians minorities in baltic countries are excluded nowadays from national symbols like official language is IMHO as well notable! (The difference anyhow is that the Bohemian Germans didn't arrive only 2 Generations before independence.)
- >if German, what about Hungarian, Ruthene, Ukrainian, Polish?
- well of course it depends how big an ethnic population is and how (and with which intention ;) this ethnic population is defined. After Malta joined the EU, Malteses became official European language - with the paradoxial problem to find 40 interpreters of Maltese in Malta - they mainly use English in official contexts and rarely write their language! Funny isn't it! :)
- Cheers Rolf —Preceding unsigned comment added by 84.167.168.99 (talk • contribs) 23:34, 10 May 2005 (UTC)
The Necas-letter is missing, in which Benes agreed to the cede territory before the Munich Agreement. The whole article reads like some bad pamphlet from the Czech embassy. In the part about 1919, why historic borders for Bohemia and ethnic borders for annexing Slovakia from Hungary--indeed going even beyond the ethnic Slavic borders by annexing the Magyar-populated Danube Valley. You will note that after World War I, NOT ONE neighbour of this CSR accepted its borders as legitimate, whether Poland, Hungary, Austria or Germany. A subtle minority policy was called for, instead the 50% non-Czechs got Czech oppression. It was not Hitler who destroyed the CSR, it was Benes, Hitler merely pushed on the rotten structure. Indeed Czech elites did it twice, and now Slovakia is independent! (Karpaten1 (talk) 01:23, 3 February 2009 (UTC))
2009 (Czech point of view (allegedly) underrepresented)
I'm sorry, but I have to mark this article as not balanced. Nowhere in the Sudeten Crisis section does the writer present Czechoslovak point of view. The sources which are pro-german are often blatantly imbalanced. For example the Runciman's investigation is quoted at length, but if anyone would make an inquiry into how his investigation has been conducted, he'd quickly find out it was a political sham. We can see plenty of photos of Germans being greeted by liberators, and of German writings on buildings, but nowhere does the article talk about all those brave Germans who escaped into the Sudetenland from Hitler - the anti-fascists, liberals, jews, and so on, nor does it mention that a good deal of Germans turned up en masse when mobilized, and were commended by their commanders for their reliability. The article does not mention that German citizens had the same rights as any other Czechoslovak citizen, and that Hitler's allegations of rampant oppression or even violence against Sudeten Germans were just as made up as the Gleiwitz incident.
This article does not adhere to Wikipedia's balanced point of view standards, and so I mark it as non-neutral. --213.129.140.142 (talk) 21:21, 18 August 2009
(U Germans definitely did not have the same rights as Czechs after World War 1. Otherwise it would not have been so easy for Hitler to convince the Super Powers in the Munich treaty. Lots of Sudeten Germans were originally Social Democrats, as they lived in industrialized areas.--92.230.68.196 (talk) 20:40, 17 June 2010 (UTC)
- Whether Czechs and Germans had or had not the same level of civil rights in Czechoslovakia as inference is Non sequitur (logic) as related to the meeting of the four on the Munich pact. Whether Hitler had been successful with Chamberlain and Deladier in forming their opinion, does not grant they were persuaded by just honest argumentation from his part, regarding the rights of Germans in Czechoslovakia. On the contrary, quite interesting is the part, when he - beforehand had meeting with Henlein and urged him to create such an situation (and He exploited it perfectly).
- This post was not trying to evaluate the extent of civil right of Germans in Czechoslovakia, I am unable to do it in its entirety, but merely point to the fact, that it would be silly to expect the conclusion of Munich agreement as a proof, that Hitler had really sound arguments supporting his demands (at least regarding the civil rights, his military strength was obviously one of the most sound arguments, which were hanging in the air) Reo ON | +++ 21:23, 8 September 2010 (UTC)
It is a biased article like this one that the Norwegian serial killer of 77 young Socialists Andres Breivik took his ideas from. Most writers here are Czech nationalists and American admins do not have the means and the knowledge to stop them. Breivik used the expulsion of the Sudeten Germans and the Benes Decrees as an incentive to get rid of Muslims from Europe. The whole world will be looking for information here as it will be a topic in Breivik`s law suit next year - and they will be shaking their heads. The discussion about the negative impact of Wikipedia on young people will certainly be going on. Why don`t you change this article to make it sound more neutral.--92.229.244.33 (talk) 16:43, 1 August 2011 (UTC)
Hello, I live in Australia with a Czech/ English european background. First of all I believe Sudetenland montes that was listed in Potelmys 2nd century maps was the name give to the moutains. And the Sudentenland people phrase only started maybe in the 20th century?. Any way lets go back to the medieval Germans Slavs example Sorbs, Wends, Polabians. What happened to these Slavic peoples of Germany?. And note that Lustatia, Margraviate of Brandenberg and part of Bariva were also were under the Czech- Bohemia crown of King and Holy Roman Emperor Charles the IV. Also he invited many Germans to live and work in Bohemia around mid 14th century. Sometime later in the Austro-Hungarian Empire in the year 1627 I believe German was the only legal written language in the present days land of the Czech Republic. Also German was spoken as a second language by the majority. Lets fast forward to 1918 after the Treaty of Versailles. The then Czechoslovakia inherited 70% of Austro-Hungarian Empire's heavy industry after 1918. And you can guess where it was mostly located?. next to he German boarder sudetenland anyone!. The 1931 census shows only 23.4% claimed to be Germans in the Czechoslovak census. The Germans were a minority and the facts show no referendum ever happened and you know why!. Also in 1938 Czechoslovakia had the 14th highest GDP in the world. And the more wealthy parts were located in the so called Sudetenland. Please prove to the world and show the original documents of the times proving that the Germans had a a majority of peoples before 1938 and the Nazi ideas of 1933 had started this in there heads! http://www1.ceses.cuni.cz/benacek/hist%20kniha2.pdf Reference:Pánek, Jaroslav; Tůma Oldřich et al. (2009). A History of the Czech lands. Prague: Karolinum. ISBN 978-80-246-1645-2. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 110.33.12.132 (talk) 06:01, 19 January 2013 (UTC)
The photo in this article relates to the Anschluss, not to the cession of Sudetenland. Shouldn't it be removed? Scarlight 14:03, 9 December 2005 (UTC)
- Where does this information come from? The photo was moved here from Anschluss because some people claimed that was taken in the Sudetenland. See this source . Martg76 13:59, 10 December 2005 (UTC)
- I found this letter to the editor when browsing some old times articles. There's no guarantee that the writer is correct, but here is what he says. http://www.time.com/time/archive/preview/0,10987,792479,00.html
- Nov. 12, 1945
- Conquerors
- "Greeting to Hitler"
Sirs: ... I feel compelled to comment upon the picture captioned "Prague 1939: Greeting to Hitler," which appears in the Oct. 22 issue of TIME.
Contrary to your caption, the locale of this picture is not Prague (as should be apparent from the German-language shop signs in the background), nor was the time 1939. . . . The sobbing woman with arm outstretched in Nazi salute has been consistently interpreted as a symbol of forced obeisance to the German conquerors of Czechoslovakia.
Let us give the devil his due: the picture was snapped by a German press photographer and first appeared in the National Socialist newspaper, Völkischer Beobachter, in the fall of 1938, shortly after the Sudeten "Anschluss." The Nazi explanation was that here were portrayed the intense emotions of joy which swept the Sudeten Germans as Hitler crossed the Czech border at Asch and drove through the streets of the nearby ancient city of Eger, 99% of whose inhabitants were ardently pro-Nazi Sudeten Germans at the time. . . .
Its appearance in TIME is the first instance I have seen wherein this photo has been depicted as showing the reception of Hitler in Prague six months after the Sudeten incident. I suspect that few if any arms were extended, either in joy or grief, on that calamitous day.
EARLE A. CLEVELAND Lieutenant (j.g.) U.S.N.R. San Francisco
TIME'S thanks to Reader Cleveland for 1) correction of what is apparently a widespread error; 2) new proof that sauce for the Nazi goose is sometimes sauce for Allied propaganda.—ED.
- Stor stark7 18:33, 8 May 2006 (UTC)
- Since the location and the occasion of the photograph, as well as the emotions being portrayed, are highly disputable, I believe the photograph (striking though it is) should be removed in the absence of clearer evidence. If retained at all, the caption needs to be very heavily qualified. Vilĉjo 00:08, 19 May 2006 (UTC)
- I agree with Vilĉjo. Olessi 04:04, 19 May 2006 (UTC)
- Since the location and the occasion of the photograph, as well as the emotions being portrayed, are highly disputable, I believe the photograph (striking though it is) should be removed in the absence of clearer evidence. If retained at all, the caption needs to be very heavily qualified. Vilĉjo 00:08, 19 May 2006 (UTC)
- Possible source: diploma thesis od Sudetenlan demography - maybe of some future use (I haven't read it yet) —Preceding unsigned comment added by Wikimol (talk • contribs) 08:09, 19 May 2006 (UTC)
How about: Image first appearing in the Nazi propaganda magazine the Völkischer Beobachter, ostensibly depicting a Sudeten German woman in Aš crying tears of joy when Hitler crossed the border in 1938. The image was later also used in Allied wartime propaganda under various headings.
That pretymuch should cover it, don't you think. It includes what the photographer claimed it shows, includes warning that it might be propaganda, and explains why there is confusion about what it means. Of cource, all this depends on the reliability on the letterwriter from 1945 (above). --Stor stark7 19:55, 22 May 2006 (UTC)
- Yes, that seems reasonable. Though a bit long, it needs to be to cover the options. I have put it in, with only slight changes. Vilĉjo 19:54, 23 May 2006 (UTC)
Controversial photo
I found this on the photo discussion page, and I was actually thinking the same thing:
This is a butchered photo, I've seen copies of the original many times. It would be best to show the whole photo - or another. (in the original, the woman to her right is bravely saluting and there is no weeping like the women pictured here)
On a side note, although a vehicle propaganda, die Deutsche Wochenschau's coverage of the annexation in 1938 paints a pretty good picture of the elation of the Sudeten Germans and certainly makes one wonder how much of an "occupation"" it really was. --Hohns3 16:53, 25 May 2006 (UTC)
- The standard cropped image can be found at the National Archives (#78). This webpage shows the original picture, along with other images of the annexation. Olessi 18:36, 25 May 2006 (UTC)
- I have a Time-Life source that, despite it being Time-Life, actually includes the entire photo. The woman to the right is actually on the left and depicted in full. Unfortunately, I am not in contact with a scanner or the book, nor would it be "legal" to post here. Still, I don't think it is scholarly to interpret the photo if it isn't even represented as its whole. I'm not impressed by the fact that it is National Archives, especially since they tampered with it, so I think we should try really hard to track down a usuable copy of the original. I'm still completely in awe with this:
"The tragedy of this Sudeten woman, unable to conceal her misery as she dutifully salutes the triumphant Hitler, is the tragedy of the silent millions who have been `won over' to Hitlerism by the `everlasting use' of ruthless force."
I'm sure Goebbels would be proud. --Hohns3 23:01, 24 July 2006 (UT
- I have a Time-Life source that, despite it being Time-Life, actually includes the entire photo. The woman to the right is actually on the left and depicted in full. Unfortunately, I am not in contact with a scanner or the book, nor would it be "legal" to post here. Still, I don't think it is scholarly to interpret the photo if it isn't even represented as its whole. I'm not impressed by the fact that it is National Archives, especially since they tampered with it, so I think we should try really hard to track down a usuable copy of the original. I'm still completely in awe with this:
What does it matter why the woman was crying? Should this photo be used as an excuse for the expulsion of 3 million Sudeten Germans? Sudeten Germans did not vote for Hitler, they did not belong to the German Reich and quite a lot of them were originally Social Democrats in those industrialized areas. By the way, how politically minded were women at that time? But they and their children had to carry the burden of the expulsion.--92.230.68.196 (talk) 21:41, 17 June 2010 (UTC)
Sudetenland also includes part of Poland, region known in German as Glatzer Ländchen and in Polish as Ziemia Kłodzka.
Someone should add this to the whole article. -
Norum 04:22, 24 April 2006 (UTC)
The following sentence from the article implies that there were only Germans living in the Sudetenlands - I think that is not true - weren't there any Czechs?
"Already from the 13th century onwards the border regions of Bohemia and Moravia, called Sudetenland in the 20th century, were settled by Germans."
I would like to correct this somohoew or add a disclaimer, or juts change the wording, but too busy right now - and don't want to mess up otherwise decent article...
PH —Preceding unsigned comment added by 168.103.68.90 (talk • contribs) 18:51, 7 May 2006 (UTC)
- Well, as was seen on the image, that unfortunetely was removed by a bot, germans were sprincled across all of the Czeck teritory. But, If you read the reference dokument in the links section, from the european university, the fact was the following when Hitler annexed the area:
- Germany took 40% of Bohemia Moravia. This area, given the name Sudetengau, had 3,500,000 inhabitants. 2,800,000 Germans and 700,000 Czecks. In what remained of Bohemina Moravia under Czheck control there were 440,000 Germans. No information is given on the number of Czecks.
- You'd probably need to cross reference these figures against some other source to verify their accuracy though. Stor stark7 19:24, 7 May 2006 (UTC)
Now that the Czech Republic has joined the EU, there is presumably nothing stopping the Sudeten Germans or their descendants settling in this region again. Are any doing so? Adam 04:21, 9 June 2006 (UTC)
- No, of course, they didn't. Who wanted to come back and settle in CR, did it soon after Velvet revolution (1989). The rest of them wants only the property or money (but most of Sudeten Germans simply wants to forget the past, without any requests).--Honzula 13:55, 16 November 2006 (UTC)
It is absolutely not the money, it is the homecountry of 800 years, with its culture and history, which have to be preserved. Many expellees are still alive. This ethnic cleansing will not be forgotten, just think of the Armenians. Their fate is still alive in people´s memory. Czechs have never managed to fill the emptied Sudetenland with culture. It is a desolate country nowadays.--92.230.68.196 (talk) 21:49, 17 June 2010 (UTC)
- My grandfather was from Sudetenland. At the time the borders opened, he was getting ready to celebrate his 80th birthday and in assisted living. He wasn't capable of traveling long distances any more, much less moving (and why would he want to, with all his family in the West?). I'm sure he would've loved to see his old homeland one more time before he died, but alas, it didn't work out for him. This probably applies to many folks of his generation. As for his descendents: We were born and grew up in northern Germany, so Sudetenland is foreign to us, a far-away country only featuring in grandpa's homesick tales. We might take a family trip there at some point just to see where he grew up and what those tales were about and see if we can figure out the mountains and churches he painted over the years and the few old scratched photographs he managed to rescue, but that's more like folks from the US traveling to Europe to see where their ancestors came from. - tameeria 18:19, 8 March 2007 (UTC)
- The number of czech citizens are known apart of population cenzus (unfortunatelly influenced by policy - Germans cound't be in CS administration). But there is a big misunderstanding: since 13th centure, there was a continual setlement of german speaking people in Bohemia, but in order of a few thousands! There is no evidence of movement of tens of thousands etc. The fact there were over 3milions of german speaking persons in 20th century was done by 1) germanisation during Habsburg era, 2) mostly qualified handycraftsman were invited to improve bohemian "economy", the progress came from german speaking coutries, and hand to hand with progress came the languege. Keep in mind, that the most of German citizens in Sudeten had czech origin names (Dworak, even Henleins mother ... ) and about a third of Wien has slavic names till today... —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 80.83.67.110 (talk) 16:09, 29 April 2007 (UTC).
I stumbled upon this document Interest of the United States in the transfer of German populations from Poland, Czechoslovakia, Hungary, Rumania, and Austria, pp. 1227-1327 from November 1944, where the Czech Government states to the U.S that it wants to expell the German population. --Stor stark7 03:44, 26 June 2006 (UTC)
- Yes, and reasons was simple (mentioned in a,b,c), and you think Czechs can live in peace with Germans after all atrocities in war and pre-war era ? Remember Lidice and Lezaky ? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 194.108.217.125 (talk • contribs) 23:52, 26 July 2006 (UTC)
- So this justifies driving people from the land they had settled for centuries? Do atrocities committed by one side (and it wasn't exactly the SGs that committed these massacres) justify atrocities on the other side. I don't think so.
- Benes bears the blame for two things: driving out the Germans of Bohemia, Moravia and Silesia, and for bringing the Czechs under the Soviet heel. Not a very good record. Str1977 (smile back) 18:55, 14 August 2006 (UTC)
And the Nazi-Germans of Bohemia are not to blame? Who brought the Czechs under the Soviet heel? --Posp68 (talk) 05:45, 26 September 2017 (UTC)
But here is one article I very missing (gathering infos and co-autors) - atrocities caused by SG Freicorps in period of pre-Munich treaty (june - september 1938). And this atrocities include murder, terorizing, kindnaping, torturing of Czechoslovaks citizines and soldiers, all caudes by SG. And yes, attrocities caused by one side dont justify another, but is here ane big difference - attrocities caused on Czechs by SG in 1938 have stong support in population, attrocities caused by Czechs on SG have not stong support in population (Czechs only want SG back in Reich, exactly who SG want in 1938, and Czechs give this to his, but without losing of Czechs teritory).
And to Benes - driving og Germans out was blessed on Postam conference and agreed before end of WWII (by all Alies). And blaming this (expeling of Germans) only on Benes is deforming of history. And for communism - comminism was "instaled" in Czechoslovakia as at last state in Europe.
Czert —Preceding unsigned comment added by 194.108.217.125 (talk • contribs) 14:47, 22 August 2006 (UTC)
- Czert,
- First of all, regarding Benes' responsibility for the expulsion: it was he who headed the Czech exile governement that returned to power in 1945 (the same Benese that been quite anti-German in the 1st Republic). The allies share in the blame as they permitted these acts but Benes and his ilk were the driving force. Benes opted for the Soviets because they were much more inclined to yield to him in this.
- You also forget that the Communists were part of Benes' post-war government with Mr Gottwald as Prime Minister. That their take over probably couldn't be helped because of the presence of the Red Army is true but there is not denying that Benes handed them CSR on a silver platter (you cannot compare this to Poland, where the non-Communist resistance had been squashed by Nazi Germany under the eyes of the halting Red Army).
- As for the Potsdam Conference - it could bless all it wanted to, this still doesn't make the atrocities right.
- Just as nothing can make crimes committed by SG freecorps right. There is no doubt that Henlein and his ilk worked towards the destruction of the CSR at least since 1935 - but the bad decisions had already occured during the 1920s.
- You say that the Czech population didn't support the horrid anti-German measures, while the "Sudetengermans" supported the free corps' crimes. Any source for that? No - large chunks of the respective groups did not support these acts, others were ambivalent (along the line of "bad, yes, but they had it coming"), and still others rejected these acts. In both cases! I know quite well that were even acts of protection made by Czechs (my grandmother and mother were saved at one instant from a fate worse than expulsion).
- So, to sum up: we should report all relevant facts truthfully, neither exploding their importance nor diminishing it, and should desist from any sort of justification and apologetics on either side. That is all that I'm demanding. Str1977 (smile back) 17:08, 22 August 2006 (UTC)
the same Benese that been quite anti-German in the 1st Republic - please, can you say me, any anti-German act of Benes in 1st republick ? And yes Benes lobing for expulsion of Germans, but first person who come with this idea (expeling of all Germans to Germany) was Chamberlain.
To communism in CSR - yes, ist very easy to punish Benes for this, but you forgeting three decisive things - 1. Munich treaty, who destroy any faith in western powers, with only USSR who show will (but only teoretical) to help CSR against Germany. 2. MOst part of Czechs and Moravia lands and complete Slovakia was liberated by Red Army, and as liberators Communist won 1946 election by 42% of votes. And third - without "help" of SG WWII probaly never broke (if yes, then with completly different enemies), and without WWII commies NEVER gain to much support in all Europe, and dont puppet anothers countries in C/E Europe. And to goverment - thanks to Benes,. CSR was ONLY later communist state with allowed London exile governent to return to liberated country.
Yes, attrocities to SG was bad, and nothing can justifi them, but if you look at years 38-45 you understand them. And need to say - nearly all attrocities commit previous nazi-colaborants or communists.
You say, bad thing alleady done in 1920 - but can you say me, yours better options ? With knowning of future is relative easy to say. And bad decisions was which ? (I know not ideal treament of econom crissin in post 1929 in Sudetenland, but let talk only of 1918-1926).
Any source for that? My sources for mass suport for attrocities of Freicorps was mostly memories of sesrvin policemans/soldiers in given time in Sudetenland (e.q. book by Jindrich Marek : Smrt v celnim pasmu - Historicke reportaze o ostraze cs. hranic v letech 1918-1948 (Death in duty? zone - Historical reposrt from guarding of borders in years 1918-48). And for non-mass support for attrocies against SG - relative lov number of incident (compared to numbers of expelled) and later investigation who make proves most of incinents against SG wa provoked or direkly lead by communists (including sabotage of militiry equipment store in Usti who direcly lead to known massacre) and rest go for personals reasons. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 194.108.217.125 (talk • contribs) 22:07, 25 August 2006 (UTC)
Benes wanted to get rid of a vast German minority - 1/3 of the whole population. In his exile in Great Britain during World War 2 he tried to persuade the Western Allies. Even the German Social Democrat Wenzel Jacksch, in Exile in Great Britain too, had no chance and was later expelled from Czechoslowakia, too.
After World War 2, Jews in Czechoslovakia were discriminated, as they had always considered themselves as participants of the German culture. So it was not just the Naszis he hated. At the end, Benes took side with Russian Communists.--92.230.68.196 (talk) 21:23, 17 June 2010 (UTC)
I do not think Jews in Czechoslovakia considered themselves as participants of the German culture after the Crystal Night or Holocaust.
Absolutely not. --Posp68 (talk) 22:18, 14 July 2017 (UTC)
The german version of this article states that on the 4th of March 1919, 54 germans and 2 czechs were killed by soldiers during the demonstrations following the czech invasion of the Sudetenland.
Can this be included? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 85.182.4.206 (talk • contribs) 01:06, 26 July 2006 (UTC)
- Yes, but why include this ? If SG do not rebel to result of victors, then was not Czechs goverment forced to send forces to his lost territories and then no causalties at booth sides.—Preceding unsigned comment added by 194.108.217.125 (talk • contribs) 00:00, 27 July 2006 (UTC)
The SG wouldn't have rebelled if it would have been allowed them to choose their own fate as it had been allowed to the Czechs. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 85.182.2.14 (talk • contribs) 00:24, 28 July 2006 (UTC)
- BUT don´t forged sudeteland was part of historics land of Bohemia kindrom (regia Bohemica). SG only colonized previosly unpopulated areas, this not give them "home teritory" or "new Germany". Calling of SG for independed state is simmilar to annexing part of US to Mexico only due to strong Mexican population in borders. All SG have similiar rights to Czechs including freedom of using German speak (in Czechoslovakia constitution in all law districts with more than 20% of German minority must clerk speak of booth langues Czechs/German) and rights of German minority in CSR was incomparable (much better) to rights of Czechs/Slovaks (and other minorities) under Austria-Hungaria empire.
- Biggest reason for rebeling of SG was lost dominance over Czechs and when knowning end of soverginity is inevitable, then trying luck with defeated Germany.
- To be clear - Czech was anexed by AH empire as indepednet nation 298 years ago . SG was not anexed by Czechs. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 194.108.217.125 (talk • contribs) 22:55, 7 August 2006 (UTC)
Please stop this game of putting forth balances and justifications. You are entitled to your interpretation but facts are facts-
BTW, just to spin forth your argument: the SGs rebelled against the (Czech) government you say, but didn't the Czechs rebell against the (Habsburg) government, against the King of Bohemia.
And references to the laws is fine and proper but you know as well as I that there was no real equality among the ethnic groups of the CSR. That's not to say that the SG were angels or did not made mistakes - they made big blunders, especially re the language issue.
The way I see it is: the post-1919 government had to chose between two options: either revive the old Bohemian Kingdom, thereby claiming its entire terrtitory but necessarily resulting in a bi(multi)national state , or opting for a Czech nation state, claiming preponderance for the Czechs but thereby respecting the right to self-determination of the parts not settled by Czechs, i.e. the so-called Sudetenland. There still would remain a German minority (Iglau and Brünn) but it would at least be consistent. But the government wanted to have its cake and eat it too, creating a Czech-dominated nation state in the boundaries of the old Kingdom. (Oh and BTW, why include Slovakia at all - they never were part of Bohemia, nor was it ethnically Czech, not to speak of the parts settled by Hungarians).
And finally: could all of you please sign your posts, typing four tildes (~).
Str1977 (smile back) 18:39, 14 August 2006 (UTC)
- I see your point Str1977, but is here one difference - Czechs rebeled against own king with blessing of victors of WWI, SG have no support for his rebelion agains CSR by victors (and victor is who create post war settlement). Reason to create state in historical borders was simple - to have self-suficient state (in term of resources) and dont lose vital par of industry (40% of total industry output of year 1920, in laters years this amount droping due to industrialization of Slovakia/Rhutenia and others parts of Bohemia ) without Sudetanland independence of CSR will be imposible (forced to be dependent on Germany, for inspiration you can look at outcome of Munich treaty to Czechoslovak industry). And yes, Czechs goverment know future CSR will be multilangual state, and for this reason study constitution and experiences of USA and Switzerland. And Switzerland model of multilangual state for CSR will be ideal, but have big flaw - all minorities must want cooperate in new state, and SG refusing this until 1926 by order by prezident of Germany to SG to cooperate.
- Yes, I know Slovaks (Slovakia) was not part of regia Bohemica, but want independe too, and Czechs was much closer than Poles or Romanians (staying with Hungarian opresors was imposible) and indepedned state for Slovaks and (later) Carpaians Ruthenians was unpractical. Creating common state for Czechs, Slovaks and Carpatian Ruthenians was based more on practical reasons to have strong state preventing future ocupation by forgein state (with artificaly created Czechoslovak nationality ) with equality to all than all others reasons. (BTW can anyone post here (any other) reason to give SG indepence instead of repeating - Indepednce was gives to Czechs, SG deserves it too)
- Czert aka 194.108.217.125 14:19, 22 August 2006 (UTC)
Czert,
What is your "one difference" supposed to prove? Are you suggesting that "might is right"? Just because one rebellion was supported by the Allies and the other was not doesn't make either of them right. Or what do you think about the Munich agreement? After all, the Allies supported it.
Historical borders are fine and dandy but that argument is meaningless as soon as one tries to build a nation state based on ethnical homogenity. You cannot have you cake and eat it too. The "Sudetenlands" were not Czech lands ... they were lands under the Bohemian crown and lands owned by various Bohemian subjects, many of which happened to be ethnically German.
As for economic reasons - yes, sure Mr Benes wouldn't want to do without the economic centres placed in the "Sudetenlands". But that's not a proper argument (unless you say "might is right"). Note that no one cared that Austria would be deprived of almost its entire economy by the secession of Bohemia and Hungary.
I myself would have advocated a binational state in the historical borders - but that is not what Mr Benes wanted and in 1919 that was not what the SGs wanted. But if you claim the right to self-determination for the Czechs you cannot legitimately deny it to the Germans. If neither wants to cooperate, the proper solution would have been that of secession of the German-populated areas. (And I am saying that in awareness that this would still have left minorities in the lurch: Czechs in the border regions, Germans in the centre).
Germans at first were not bent on compromise, but when have Mr Massaryk and Mr Benes wanted compromise in 1919? They had the secession of the SGs crushed by force ... do you think the SGs after that would immediately turned around for a compromise (not that they were asked back then). The land reform favouring Czechs also did not facilitate such a compromise. In the mid-twenties they were a couple of attempts of trying to integrate them into the political systems - a noble and sensible building up of trust - but on the whole, politics were dominated by a cartell of Czech parties.
All in all, if you raise your points to illustrate the motives of the Czech government using his advantage in power to pursue its interest, you are right. But don't preach a sermon that makes these points into valid arguments why all these policies were good, acceptable, moral, justifiable. "Might is right" is exactly the argument that Hitler used in 1938 (and also in 1939) - in this case Mr Benes reaped in 1938 what he had sown in 1918, as much as Mr Goldstücker may complain about it.Str1977 (smile back) 17:28, 22 August 2006 (UTC)
- Mayby "Might is right" is not best appochach at all, but noone invent something better. Ask someone of French in Alssase-Loriene to be part of Germany, after Franco-prussian war ? NO. (and vice versa in 1918).If you lok at history it is victor who determine post-war borders, not looser and Czechoslovakia was member of victors states, and AH in loosed side.And you are saying ethnical borders are more than historical borders or internatioanl agreements ? And why Germans dont want indepence for Czechs under AH (based on ethnics borders) and "instantly invent" this after creating of Czechoslavika ? Or is here not equality for all ?
- To Munich - by words (I thing) of Winston Churchill : It is greatest shame in history of your nation, that we sign this deal. And to make long story short - before Munich have ben tenzions between Czechs and Germans (I dont count fueling by nazis), but after Minich all Czechs wiev all Germans as enemyies and traitors. Munich agreement unrepairable harm Czechs-Germans relations. Yes, I known examples of Germans who remain loayal to Czechoslovakia after Munich, but have very though life - by his "gennosen" have ben treated as traitor of German race, and by Czechs was treated as traitor of Czechoslovakia state.
- As I said earlier - attemps to join sudetenland to Austria (or Germany) is simmiliar to (teoreticaly) attempt join parts of US to Mexico based only on stong Mexican community in area. Yes, etnical Germans owns property and lands, but only in terms of private ownership, not in terms of own country. Or better - you thing if you buy e.q. 100 acres of land in - e.q. Germany - you have right to create own state and declare indepedence over Germany ? Try this in real life, but dont be supried if your contry will not ben acknowled by Germany (or other states) and this will be violating of Germans law,and you may have future problems with this. OR another example - you thing if Chinese in China town (part of NY) will declare indepence and instal own (communist) goverment US will not act aggainst this ?
- The 3 million Germans in the Sudetenland were in favor of joining that land with Germany in 1919. Most of present day Austria was in favor of joining with Germany in 1919. How wide is your historical knowledge????
- If yours goal is independet Czechoslovakia, you cant perform this without Sudetenland, in any other case, Czechoslovakia will be puppet of Austria/Germany - depends on who will have sudetenland. And to Austria - victors have interest for workins Austria economy - for paying war reparations, but cant prefer Austria economics interest over interest of own members of alliance (losing south Tyrol to Italy, in Czechoslovakia lost only earlier annexed lands). BTW Czechoslovakia paying war reparations to allies as succesor of AH.
- I myself would have advocated a binational state in the historical borders - you mean something simmiliar to US type of goverment ? But if you claim the right to self-determination for the Czechs you cannot legitimately deny it to the Germans. Hmmm, right for self determination based on historical and etnical borders are different (not only in terms of "public opinion"), then compare only RTSD based on etnics borders - SG and Slovaks, and you can see differences too, Slovaks dont move to another (independet or anexxed) country, they stal in the same place fo all time (if you dont count Great moving of nations). And former colonist (but this is not based on etnics borders) gain indepence only if WIN war (or by peacefully deal) with his former colonial ruler (indepence of US in war against UK ... etc)
- They had the secession of the SGs crushed by force ...You are thinging if peoplers in Rhur area (yes, I know only teorecital example, but I thing best fit for this case) want independe or show will to join France/Belgium - Germany say, lets them go and not act by force ? If you thing Germans will act peacefully, then please explain this.
- The land reform favouring Czechs ... yes, only 3,5% of seized land to germans was returned back to Germans hand, but this have deeply reasons and not anti-German politic. Reason why germasn war richest in future Czechoslovakia was simple - AH favor Germans over Czechs (If you thing this is basen on skill of G , then why not are germans richest in e.q France ? - in given time), and land ferorm was attemp to rectify (hope for correct word) historical injustice. BTW not solved land reform (or better very slow progres) was one of reasons in staring of Spain civil war.
- politics were dominated by a cartell of Czech parties - but is here any reason why is this injustice ? In these terms works truly democracy, not pseudo-democacy of AH (e.q. for one representant in parliament of AH, Czech representant need 51 000 votes, German reprezentant only 41 000), and by counting of peoples in 1921 - 13 613 172 inhabitants totall - Czechs 6 850 000 (51%) 1 910 000 Slovaks (14,5%), 3 123 000 Germans (23,4%) 745 000 Hungaryans (5,3%), 461 000 Rusians and Ukrainians (3,4%) 180 000 Jews (1,3%), 75 000 Poles (0,5%) and others (0,6%).
- This clearly shows Germans have no voting power to change anything without cooperatin with Czechs and others (but have accustomed (HFCW) to rule to Czechs and others - again, you can look at languague law in AH and Czechoslovakia). And if you study composition of population in AH, you discover "bad thing" ruling of Germans (and later Hungarians) was based on minority ruling msjority, and this hapen for long time.
- With regards Czert. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 194.108.217.125 (talk • contribs) 16:53, 28 August 2006 (UTC)
- Why everybody is showing the settlement of Bohemia and Moravia in 19th or 20th century? The name Sudetenland is only slightly over 100 years old!!! Before the Germans came, most parts of the Czech lands were already settled by the Czechs and Moravians! We were in the country before the Germans! The result of the giant germanization of the Slavic countries by the Habsburgs was the increased percentage of the Germans up to over 30%. But this was the status of the recent time, not the the original one and not the present one! Lies, lies, only lies!!! —Preceding unsigned comment added by LJM (talk • contribs) 18:27, 1 October 2006 (UTC)
- The number of expelled Germans totalled 3 million of the 3.2 million Germans of Czechoslovakia[citation needed]. On the fact request that has been given here, I found a source that claims the left-wing czechs massacred thousands and over two million were deported. (The Yalta betrayal : data on the decline and fall of Franklin Delano Roosevelt, p. 262), but no specific figure of 3 million. Still, one should bear in mind that the figure given was a reflection on the event prior to its finalization.--72.94.87.243 00:46, 8 October 2006 (UTC)
- As for the unsigned user's comment directly above mine...German settlement in the 19th and 20th centuries is completely different from the German tribal settlement over 1000 years ago. Calling these regions a "country" - "your" country, no less - reveals obvious ignorance on your behalf. They were "Slavic" countries? Oh really now? With full confidence, I'm guessing you also know nothing Slavic migration and settlement into the land you blather about being "yours".--72.94.87.243 00:46, 8 October 2006 (UTC)
- The borders of czech state as it were, were always on the mountains, not in inlands and it is so already from 9th century. In the middleages were invited german craftsmen which settled mainly in boarder among czech population. Then after lost 30year war in 1648, and return to stato quo of 1627, began forced germanization of czech population. New independence was only to thanks of many patriots through 19th and begining 20th century. Austria was torn to Austria-Hungary due to nationalism. Same was in the czech lands. The so called sudeten germens itselfs wanted go to the "reich", so their wish was fullfilled in 1945. Our people had enough of those, who bragged and wanted to torn state to pieces. As a victorious state Czechoslovakia had full right to do so. Yes, there were crimes against expelled, but before you make another comment like you didn't that, please look at your history and tell that your nation didn't anything like this before. Especially americans can proud on what they did to their natives. I think we czech don't have problems with foreigners, only with troublemakers and that sudetengerman during fist republic certainly were. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 89.102.183.15 (talk) 01:33, 5 June 2008 (UTC)
- WHAT AN AMAZING HISTORICAL MEMORY YOU HAVE!! Please reveal how many "czech population" lived in 1627 in what came to later be called the Sudetenland. 3 million or so? (or was that a somewhat extremely smaller increment?) And then the Germans started showing up???? What an amazing story !!!
- "As a victorious state CZ had full right to deport 3 million Germans having a 400 year or so ethnic history there"??: That's as good a definition of ethnic cleansing as one might find. The Human Rights Convention/Pronouncements in Helsinki in mid-1970s reject such "victor's justice"/generalized ethnic guilt by ethnic membership. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.14.217.231 (talk) 00:25, 17 July 2008 (UTC)
- Regarding, "The borders of czech state as it were, were always on the mountains": Don't you mean the boundaries of Bohemia?
The official name of the country in Middle Ages was Čechy, in Latin Bohemia. "But if you claim the right to self-determination for the Czechs you cannot legitimately deny it to the Germans." Hmmm, Self-Determination of Nations or Self-Determination of Minorities? German immigrants to the Czech Lands were a minority and not a nation, and most countries in Europe have minorities. A minority ruled by a Nazi like Konrad Henlein is not a minority, but a horde. --Posp68 (talk) 18:11, 18 June 2015 (UTC)
The Germans had been living in the border region of Bohemia for about 800 years. They were called into the country by Slavic rulers to cultivate it. German city rights were established in the newly-founded cities. Mountainous regions are very often uninhabited so there was enough room for German farmers and city-people. The word Sudetenland is not very old, it was introduced at the beginning of the 20th century for Deutschböhmen. The dialects were influenced by the surrounding German and Austrian inhabitants and there was just an inofficial capital Reichenberg. So the Sudetenland consisted of a great cultural variety.--92.230.68.196 (talk) 21:12, 17 June 2010 (UTC)
- please exclude the mention to the 54 civilian deaths in 4 March 1919
the source is quoted as being http://www.radnitzky.de/pub/2002c-t.pdf. The website www.radnitzky.de is unexistant. The text at the PDF file (in German) contains several statements without mentioning sources. The text is not listed in Gerard Radnitzky's bibliography in Wikipedia so maybe it was not written by him. This is not a reliable source, please remove it both from German and English Wikipedia or add a reliable source for the 54 civilian deaths.
--Wend2011 (talk) 14:22, 12 August 2011 (UTC)
Wasn't Sudetenland designated as any region with an over-30% German minority, so quite a few, if not all, of the regions actually contained Czechoslovak majority? I think I heard that somewhere, but I can't remember where. +Hexagon1 (t) 05:25, 8 November 2006 (UTC)
there was really about 3 millions of german speaking inhabitants in CS, 1/2 a million in cities outside of "Sudeten", so it seems logical... --David Baca
The so called "Sudetenland coat of arms" displayed in this article is in fact the coat of arms of Sudetengerman's movement and was designed in jully 1950 in Germany. Because this article don't describe the history after 1950 I suggest to remove this picture!--Honzula 13:56, 16 November 2006 (UTC)
Well I move it to "Sudetendeutsche Landsmannschaft" article - please, control if it's OK, before this one will be deleted.--Honzula 14:29, 18 November 2006 (UTC)
Whatever your interpretation of the image, it doesn't make sense to have two copies 1. Image:Anschlusstears.gif and 2. Image:Prague 1939 tragic greeting.jpg? Does anyone have a preference, the darker or the lighter? I think I prefer #1, the darker of the two. Please post your comments at Talk:German_occupation_of_Czechoslovakia#Photo:_Tears_of_joy.2C_tears_of_sadness NOT here. - TheMightyQuill 03:57, 16 March 2007 (UTC)
How come none of the given sources provide any page references? If you have actually read the works surely you can provide page references for where the provided sources state that:
- 1 Lord Runciman was a quote "faithful appeaser" end-quote.
and
- 2 "His mission failed because, on Hitler's command, Sudeten German Party refused all conciliating proposals."
The speed with which you provided the names of the books, but without being able to provide page references, is in my eyes suspicious.--Stor stark7 Talk 20:55, 7 April 2007 (UTC)
- For me is for ever suspicious everybody, who refers the web site denying holocaust (Richard know, what I'm talking about). For me more is credible to refer some books -if you read any- than find some sentences by Google and use them without thinking! --Honzula 03:42, 10 April 2007 (UTC)
- Quite fascinating to see you reveal your blatant POV pushing so clearly. And please forgive me for saying so openly, but your English is so poor it's quite frankly rather difficult to follow exactly what it is you're trying to get across. Are you perhaps calling Richard a holocaust denier? Tsk tsk, bad Honzula. What on earth has the topic of holocaust denial to do with the sources you provided "for ignorants" as you called them. Poor ignorants by the way, if I was one of them I'd have gotten quite peeved with your little joke by now. Now, the information that I provided was published in the book Várdy, Steven Béla and Tooly, T. Hunt: "Ethnic Cleansing in Twentieth-Century Europe". Columbia University Press, (2003) ISBN 0-88033-995-0 and was provided with proper page references, since I actually had read the source that I provided. I feel the urge to let you know that your little sentence about reading books and Google was rather amusing. I read lots of books. How about you? Lets go through what happened shall we.
- 4 Now, I can only assume this, but I guess that once you realized the paragraph was not simply going to be permitted to disappear, you proceeded to modify it according to your POV. Despite the fact that the paragraph described the situation for the Sudetenland Germans over a period of several years, you began by moving it from the section "Within the Czechoslovak Republic (1918-1938)" to the section "Sudeten Crisis and German annexation", and although you in your explanation pretended that you were just moving the paragraph "Runciman's mission moved where it belongs", I do believe I can see quite a lot of heavy duty POV statements inserted. Naturally all of your claims were inserted unsourced.
- 6 Meanwhile, remembering what you said about reading books and Google, isn't it odd that shortly before providing the book "sources", you managed to insert an un-sourced Churchill quote into into the appeasement article . Funnily enough the same type of quote one sees if one does a Google search on Runciman and appeaser What a truly astonishing coincidence. Good thing there were people there who could correct it and provide a source
- --Stor stark7 Talk 21:17, 10 April 2007 (UTC)
So-called "Sudetenland" is only German and teleologic denomination of geographically roughly determinated territory of Czech state. It has never been official, not even unofficial, not even after occupation of the rest of Czechoslovakia by Nazis in 1939. It was only a political and tactical product of Hitler´s intention of Third reich expansion.--Jan Blanicky 18:32, 23 June 2007 (UTC)
- The term Sudetenland was formed at the beginning of the last century for the border region of Bohemia, where mainly Germans had been living for 800 years. Before that time the Germans there considered themselves as Deutschböhmen. It has nothing to do with the Nazis.--92.230.68.196 (talk) 20:58, 17 June 2010 (UTC)
I am looking für the article Dr. Walter Staffa in the german Wikipedia (See:~http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Walter_Staffa) for informations to the Hodolein-camp near Olomouc (in this time called too "Olmütz"). Which persons where in the camp? Normal members of the german "Wehrmacht", normal people called "Sudetendeutsche", or members of organisations of Konrad Henlein oder NSDAP-members? Dr. Walter Staffa is a far right, former in the "Sudetendeutsche Landsmannschaft" und in the "Witikobund", leader of the extrem right "Deutsches Seminar". See here*http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deutsches_Seminar
I want to proof what he said about the "Lager Hodolein" near "Olmütz".
Any information is warmly welcomed. Please inform me only in the german" Wikipedia, under member "Nup".
Just klick here: *http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Benutzer_Diskussion:Nup
Thank ou in advice!
Nup (talk) 12:26, 30 November 2007 (UTC)
I am writing and editing under some difficulties (in the moment application to wipe it away) and some other actions, see
the article Dr. Walter Staffa in the german Wikipedia (See:~http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Walter_Staffa) for informations about Dr. Walter Staffa, a high member of the "Sudetendeutsche Landsmannschaft" in Germany, but a Far Right too.
Even I'm looking for informations about the so called Hodolein-camp near Olomouc (in this time called too "Olmütz"). Which persons where in the camp? Normal members of the german "Wehrmacht", normal people called "Sudetendeutsche", or members of organisations of Konrad Henlein oder NSDAP-members? Dr. Walter Staffa is a far right, former in the "Sudetendeutsche Landsmannschaft" und in the "Witikobund", leader of the extrem right "Deutsches Seminar". See here*http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deutsches_Seminar
I want to proof what he said about the "Lager Hodolein" near "Olmütz".
Any information is warmly welcomed. Please inform me only in the german" Wikipedia, under member "Nup".
Just klick here: *http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Benutzer_Diskussion:Nup
Nup (talk) 12:26, 30 November 2007 (UTC)
A Landsmannschaft is not a political party and is therefore made up of different kinds of people. Your family history is important and not your political views. Although the notion Heimat is often falsely connected with right-wing views. Without past not future. Depriving people of their roots is a serious crime against humanity.--92.230.68.196 (talk) 20:50, 17 June 2010 (UTC)
What about Poland and Hungary? Did they not also both take (relatively small) sections of Czechoslovakia for themselves in 1938? Seems to me relevant, for a fuller (and thus more honest) picture of the period. Historian932 (talk) 03:30, 18 September 2009 (UTC)
- ok it's been added, i still have a question however the article states: "This area was annexed by fascist Hungary."...i seem to remember Hungary had a conservative-nationalist government until 1944, when the Arrow Cross (Hungarian fascists) staged a coup (with German help I believe?) Historian932 (talk) 20:54, 3 October 2011 (UTC)
Hungary was a fascist state.
Under Miklos Horthys leadership, Hungary introduced anti-Semitic laws. Marriages between Jews and non Jews were prohibited in 1941.
Jews were forbidden to acquire Hungarian citizenship. Absolute elimination of Jews from all positions in the public sector.
The introduction of forced labour service for Jewish males in 1939. From the spring of 1944 Hungary caught up with the rest of Axis-occupied Europe and in the period of nine months 600,000 Jews were murdered. This task was tackled with such enthusiasm, that when the Wehrmacht requisitioned the trains and thus the deportations would have come to a halt,
Hungarian fascists “invented” the forced death-marches.
Hungarian armies fought with the Nazis on the Eastern Front and during the German invasion of Yugoslavia.
Almost 250,000 soldiers were sent to certain death in fighting the Soviet Union on the Eastern Front;
On December 12, 1941, after the Japanese attack on Pearl Harbor, Horthy’s regime followed Hitler and declared war on the United States.
Horthy’s Prime Minister, László Bárdossy was executed as a war criminal in 1946. Horthy was also arrested by US troops but saved himself through his contacts with Stalin; the Russian Communists thought that the old turncoat would be useful for the Soviet expansion in Eastern Europe.
- --Posp68 (talk) 09:59, 26 May 2019 (UTC)
- Sorry,
- this question is more complex and has been discussed also by other articles. Hungary was not a fascist state in general, though there are certain topics and eras when we may speak about fascist ideologies or parties. In your argumentation here you cherrypicked some of you POVs in support of your label regarding fascism, although these are not the definiton of fascism. The work you cited as well discusses of the development of "three-phases" of fascism, namely using the term proto-fascism at the first stages, that would manifest after the German occupation and the Hungarist takeover of Hungary. From the latter point, a totalitarian or fascist deisngation may be accepted but not before, when Hungary was a regency with parlamentiarism, even may be described as an authoriter democracy, but certainly not a fascist state.(KIENGIR (talk) 16:24, 27 May 2019 (UTC))
- Blatant nonsense, Hungary was a fascist state. Prime Minister Gömbös moved Hungary towards a one-party government like those of Fascist Italy and Nazi Germany and scapegoated the Jews for the country's failing economy. The Kingdom of Hungary under Horthy was an Axis Power during World War II--Posp68 (talk) 19:55, 28 May 2019 (UTC)
- No way, Gömbös was known to sypmtahize with Italy and it's model, but he died in 1936, and Hungary did not become a "fascist state", and "moving towards" or any aim that in the end was not carried out is just a hyphotethical stigma by your side. Being an Axis Power does not mean og being a fascist state.(KIENGIR (talk) 14:04, 30 May 2019 (UTC))
- Blatant nonsense, Hungary was a fascist state. Prime Minister Gömbös moved Hungary towards a one-party government like those of Fascist Italy and Nazi Germany and scapegoated the Jews for the country's failing economy. The Kingdom of Hungary under Horthy was an Axis Power during World War II--Posp68 (talk) 19:55, 28 May 2019 (UTC)
Utter nonsense. Gömbös' successor, Kálmán Darányi, attempted to appease Nazis by passing the First Jewish Law. World War II saw many nations fighting the fascist with great bravery. Fascist Hungary was of course not among them. Hungary has not yet shaken off its fascist past.--Posp68 (talk) 19:04, 17 June 2019 (UTC)
Hungary, ruled by Regent Admiral Miklós Horthy was a fascist state. Read above again if it is still not clear to You, Thank You. --Posp68 (talk) 19:43, 17 June 2019 (UTC)
According to Time Magazine, "CZECHOSLOVAKIA: Pax Runciman" Monday, Aug. 15, 1938, the first day of Lord Runciman's program included 20-minute meetings with President Eduard Benes and Premier Milan Hodza; two lengthy conferences with "henchmen" (as the article calls them) of Henlein; and, next day lunch with Dr. & Mme Benes; a short conference at his hotel with non-Nazi Czech Germans.
It is obvious from the use of the word "henchmen" that this article is not exactly unbiased, but it does seem to show that the statement in the article that, and I quote "Lord Runciman has however conducted his investigation in a rather peculiar manner, by directly meeting the Sudeten Germans from Henlein's SdP, and asking them what are their biggest grievances. During his entire mission, Lord Runciman did not contact the Czechoslovak side even once" is just plain wrong. Currently I am reading through some of the UK Cabinet papers of the time up to Munich, and including the Runciman period, and I will see if I can find more detailed information.
For those of you who are interested, I am currently reading the relevant documents available from the National Archive website in the UK.
The files are large, but interesting. Kuitan (talk) 01:18, 30 September 2009 (UTC)
I am just now reading the Conclusions of the Cabinet meeting of 17th September, 1938 which Lord Runciman attended. It is very clear that he had met with, and had discussed many things with the Benes and others in Government. I have yet to find confirmation of Chamberlain's view that Runciman had in fact srtablished some influence in the country, and that he was respected for his impartiality Cabinet Conclusions 39 (38) p 1. Runciman's presentation is summarised in pages 2 to 6 of the same document, and includes assessments of the members of the Czechoslovakian Government, and of the Sudeten Germans - including some who did NOT want to be absorbed into the Reich - that he had met, outlines of four specific plans which could be looked at in dealing with the future of the region. Runciman admits that he had not immediately understood the relationship between the Sudeten Germans and Berlin (page 7) to change this section, simply to correct the mistake about Runciman, and to examine the things that Had been discussed would take a whole section.
The Document can be found as part of cab-23-95.pdf which can be found at the Conclusions link I give above.
Kuitan (talk) 21:01, 30 September 2009 (UTC)
Finally, Runciman had a brief conversation with President Benes. Not bad to come up with the idea of talking to the president too — Preceding unsigned comment added by 171.23.6.111 (talk) 15:31, 16 October 2020 (UTC)
The article says:
British Prime Minister Neville Chamberlain met with Adolf Hitler in Berchtesgaden on 15 September and agreed to the cession of the Sudetenland. Three days later, French Prime Minister Édouard Daladier did the same. No Czechoslovak representative was invited to these discussions.
This account is problematic. According to Neville Chamberlain's account no decision was made after the first meeting, no decision COULD be made after the first meeting. [CC 39(38) p 15 ]
The first paragraph, about Henlein, is clearly out of place and needs to be deleted or repositioned. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Srendall (talk • contribs) 14:35, 20 October 2010 (UTC) (Comment from Reo On: the intro quote for Sudetenland#Sudeten Crisis as is in this version was ment.)
- I see. Actually You are right.
- I did'nt see it at first, but it trully deserves to be somewhere else if ever. It should be put in context maybe somwhere inside Sudetenland#Sudetenland as part of Nazi Germany? If there would be some comment about Henleins doing/not doing as nazi, this said quote sentence should be included there. But why it is as an intro for sudetencrisis? Really Reo ON | +++ 14:26, 30 October 2010 (UTC)
- Deleted.
- There an inconsistency in the following passage:
- "On 24 April 1938 the SdP proclaimed the Karlovy Vary Programme (Karlsbader Programm), which demanded in eight points the complete equality between the Sudetengermans and the Czech people. The government accepted these claims on June 30, 1937."
- How could the government accept the claims before they were proclaimed? Would someone who is familiar with the events correct this, please. Marshall46 (talk) 09:09, 15 April 2011 (UTC)
See Egerland for the sources for the Eger 1061 mention as a German city of the March of the Nordgau. This became part of the 1919-1939 "Sudetenland" political region. South Moravia also has another settlement history than Asch and Mährisch-Schönberg in the northwest and northeast!Smith2006 (talk) 15:09, 21 August 2011 (UTC)
See Egerland for the sources for the Eger 1061 mention as a German city of the March of the Nordgau. This became part of the 1919-1939 "Sudetenland" political region. South Moravia also has another settlement history than Asch and Mährisch-Schönberg in the northwest and northeast!Smith2006 (talk) 15:10, 21 August 2011 (UTC)
The current map at the start of the article is unsourced. Looking at its description it seems it was based on unscholarly source from a private homepage which no longer exists.--MyMoloboaccount (talk) 08:35, 25 August 2011 (UTC)
In current English-language usage, when — if at all — is the name preceded by the definite article, i.e. the Sudetenland? The page at present appears inconsistent (or follows a rule unfamiliar to this native speaker of American English). -- Deborahjay (talk) 09:04, 23 February 2012 (UTC)
- It's uncommon in modern American English and was previously (i.e., during the time of its existence) used inconsistently in British and American English. If the exact numbers or dates are important, you could check with Google ngram. — LlywelynII 11:39, 27 December 2012 (UTC)
- The term may be used infrequently in America. But the definite article is still used in English. I cannot see why it is stated that Sudetenland was "used in English in the first half of the 20th century". Both "The Sudetenland" and "Sudetenland" are still used in English.Royalcourtier (talk) 06:09, 14 March 2014 (UTC)
Fixed an unsourced (and unsourceable, since false) sentence in the intro claiming the area was majority Czech. Since it was probably added by a local nationalist, it's likely to reappear. Anyone keeping an eye on the page, kindly fix it each time. — LlywelynII 11:39, 27 December 2012 (UTC)
Looks like the last paragraph on that section got mangled at some point. I have recovered what I think must have been the original text from a previous edit in the history, but I haven't a fucking clue whether that text is any accurate at all. I can only vouch for the grammatical correctness of the present version.
I have also corrected a couple of basic spelling mistakes.
In the "Sudeten Crisis" section, it says "On 24 April 1938 the SdP proclaimed the Karlsbader Programm (de) ... The government accepted these claims on June 30, 1937." Impossible. There is insufficient specification of years throughout this whole section, unless the June 30, 1937 date is erroneous and everything actually took place between March and October 1938. Chris the speller yack 13:10, 9 August 2013 (UTC)
- I see above that this came up a couple of years ago, in April 2011. I am going to be bold and change 1937 to 1938, since this article is not getting much attention from caring editors. Chris the speller yack 15:00, 9 August 2013 (UTC)
- What you have done aligns the English language entry with the German language entry and (as far as I can figure it out which isn't very far) the Czech language entry. Probably you already spotted all that. But I thought I detected a residual sadness that you were maybe writing a note only to yourself. Wrong. You're not alone and for whatever it may be worth I think you did something good here. Regards Charles01 (talk) 17:17, 9 August 2013 (UTC)
Brno was in the past also called Eburodunum. Read the "eastern march", Slavic or wend march", Avar march" Brno has been populated for over 20000 years do your own research. And Germans did not exist 20000 years ago!. http://www.iabrno.cz/~skrdla/ANTROPARK/pavlova.htmhttp://donsmaps.com/dolnivenus.html https://www.google.com.au/search?q=The+Mammoth+Ivory+Male+statuette+from+Brno&oq=The+Mammoth+Ivory+Male+statuette+from+Brno&aqs=chrome..69i57&sourceid=chrome&espv=210&es_sm=93&ie=UTF-8 http://www.cs-magazin.com/index.php?a=a2011021048 http://www.spiegel.de/fotostrecke/photo-gallery-ptolemy-s-geography-fotostrecke-59994-2.html https://www.google.com.au/#q=skoda+works+tanks&spell=1 Also Germans have the most named Slavic tribes in the world. So why are you not writing the truth?.
Is/was the Sudeten Germans of Austrian or German nationality? --85.76.71.203 (talk) 22:19, 19 November 2014 (UTC)
- Herrenvolk und Lebensraum, sounds german to me. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 171.23.6.11 (talk) 19:54, 13 May 2015 (UTC)
- They were German speaking people from the former Austro-Hungarian Empire. To the extent that they had a nationality, they were Czechs. Before then they were Bohemian citizens of the Austro-Hungarian Empire. Do not make the mistake of equating language, ethnicity, and nationality. Hmoulding (talk) 21:32, 9 December 2015 (UTC)
No, they weren't of Czech nationality, this is nonsense. In the interwar period they had a Czechoslovakian citizenship (as the other nationalities as well). But this is different to the nationality. Even Benes wrote above maps prepared for the 1st WW treaty negotiations: "Les Allemands de Boheme".188.105.69.39 (talk) 13:49, 11 December 2015 (UTC)
They were German immigrants, Drang nach Osten, who lived and worked in the Czech lands.
They never learned Czech and were called the dumb - meaning German in Czech.
--Posp68 (talk) 09:28, 24 April 2016 (UTC)
During the Habsburg misrule of the Czech Lands, the Czech language was removed from public administration and higher education. Yes, do not make the mistake of equating language, ethnicity, and nationality.
--Posp68 (talk) 08:21, 19 June 2016 (UTC)
The article says, "skilled forced labour of remaining ethnic German men remained necessary." That is weaselly. I have fixed it. Hmoulding (talk) 21:40, 9 December 2015 (UTC)
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This article is constructed in a very biased manner and is unfair. 2A00:23C4:B63A:1800:919B:8642:DD49:D1B5 (talk) 14:41, 15 March 2020 (UTC)
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What happen in Eastern Ukraine, the annexation of the Donbass region, is an exact repetition of what Hitler did in 1938. 2A02:1210:6E75:F200:9BE:D575:4367:DE40 (talk) 09:39, 24 February 2022 (UTC)
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