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This is an archive of past discussions about Stefan Molyneux. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 1 | ← | Archive 4 | Archive 5 | Archive 6 | Archive 7 | Archive 8 | → | Archive 10 |
FYI. Fyddlestix (talk) 19:19, 6 January 2018 (UTC)
New feature length article from the Southern Poverty Law Center has just been published online. Among other things, the SPLC describes Molyneux as "alt-right," "white supremacist," and "alleged cult leader." The article mostly talks about Molyneux's involvement in pro-Trump circles, his advocacy of Human Biodiversity or more commonly referred to as "Scientific Racism," and his earlier advocacy of cutting off all contact from parents and friends who aren't anarchists. Does this article deserve any mention on this page? [1] 2601:982:4200:A6C:7547:1AC1:9C34:39C7 (talk) 06:00, 3 March 2018 (UTC)
Just wondering if Daily Beast should be considered as a reliable source, especially as the only use we have for it in this article is within the cult accusations. --Truther2012 (talk) 21:32, 18 June 2018 (UTC)
"In 2017, Molyneux interviewed James Damore, the Google employee who was fired after writing and distributing the Google's Ideological Echo Chamber memo." Source listed is The Guardian https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2017/aug/09/james-damore-google-memo-youtube-interviews. Damore did not distribute the memo. He posted it internally as a reply. It was distributed by employees who got their feelings hurt by reading biological facts. The source is also wrong on several other points and quite biased - "James Damore, the engineer fired this week for his criticism of diversity..." Damore did not "criticize diversity," but Google's way of trying to accomplish it. "James Damore went from an unknown software engineer at Google to widespread internet notoriety..." Not notorious except among SJWs. "Damore – who argued in his memo that “biological” differences between men and women contribute to the gender gap in the tech industry..." Sexual dimorphism is an actual thing, except for SJWs, who insist that sex is a social construct. Placing biological in quotation marks shows science denial - men and women are biologically different, humans are a sexually dimorphic species. Writer of the article is either an activist posing as a journalist or painfully politically illiterate, given that he labels anyone who does not agree with SJW views as alt-right, which is ridiculous. Given the widespread activism in mainstream media, perhaps it's time to reconsider reliability of sources. Accuracy is important for an encyclopedia. Nikolaneberemed (talk) 13:25, 9 July 2018 (UTC)
The reversion of the description of Lauren Southern's character as "Alt-Right", should not be undone. The current description "Canadian political activist, internet personality and journalist..." is contextually not the same as "Alt-Right...", and is blatantly different than her character description on her own Wikipedia Page - Lauren Southern. This breaks Wikipedia's Biographies of Living Persons Policy - (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Biographies_of_living_persons#Non-article_space). It is not a problem to shorten the sentence to one adjective, however it breaks the BLP policy to use a description that is blatantly characterizing her inaccurately. If you want to characterize her as "Alt-Right", you need to provide evidence, as her page states: Lauren is a Canadian political activist, internet personality, and journalist. She has been described as far-right and alt-right, though she claimed she is not alt-right, in a video that was part of an argument with the YouTuber Thunderf00t
. This is as close as an accusation as can be made on her own page, and to say she is "Alt-Right" here is exactly mischaracterization. Her Wikipage is a reliable sources. The corroborating characterization must remain, or be shortened to within the same context as the original. Zinxochai (talk) 22:29, 8 August 2018 (UTC)
Usually, there is a bibliography section on pages of pundits/intellectuals/talking heads/etc. I can help contribute, but I don't think I know how to make a new section on the page. Bzzzing (talk) 12:11, 19 July 2018 (UTC)
I don't see the point of removing the section about Molyneux and Lauren Southern's proposed New Zealand tour in 2018. Especially since it's been reported in a number sources that the tour is going ahead.[1][2] Perhaps, maybe having a shortened version of the original text? Any thoughts? I'm unfamiliar with Wikipedia:Neutral point of view#Undue weight. And those sources would be mainstream NZ media sources by the way. Andykatib 09:52, 26 July 2018 (UTC)
References
AHC300 (talk) 19:09, 27 September 2018 (UTC)
give him an opportunity to say whatever he liked... Yeah, that's just what Molyneux needed. Anyway, as I said, this would need a reliable source specifically saying his position has changed. If a reliable source doesn't explain why comments from Molyneux are significant, they are not treated as significant by Wikipedia. This applies to both obscure softball interviews as well as his countless self-published works. Grayfell (talk) 07:59, 3 December 2018 (UTC)
I support adding content from this SPLC source , but it has to be attributed to the SPLC. I don't think we can say he is a white supremacist in Wikivoice. Seraphim System (talk) 01:53, 5 December 2018 (UTC)
This doesn't even belong in the lede: "According to the SPLC, Molyneux is said to 'amplify' scientific racism, eugenics, and white supremacism." "Amplifying" is a reference to to what any interviewer does. Molyneux is a podcaster and YouTuber. Yes, his guests include white supremacists. In that sense yes, he amplifies white supremacism, scientific racism, and eugenics, or at least the SPLC alleges. But this doesn't belong in the lede because it is simply a consequence of what he does: he is a podcaster and YouTuber. We don't negatively portray people simply for interacting with other people and we don't give prominence of place in the lede of our article on that same basis. A nuanced statement to this effect can be placed in the body of the article. Bus stop (talk) 13:32, 5 December 2018 (UTC)
"the source never mentions the word "strange". I'm sorry I wasn't clear. I didn't mean to imply the word "strange" was found in the source. I was referring to your use of the word "strange". You said
the way you interpret "amplifies" is quite strange.
I've made this edit. It gives the reader a much more extensive quote from the SPLC, but it places it in the body of the article. According to the SPLC, Molyneux "amplifies" the mentioned racist qualities. The SPLC is not saying that Molyneux embodies these racist qualities. Bus stop (talk) 14:21, 6 December 2018 (UTC)
This Wiki page has been the source of discussion among a popular anti alt right subreddit on Reddit. This may or MAY NOT be the source of current and future attempts at vandalism and/or edit warring. Thank you for your time. Ndunc1 (talk) 06:29, 5 December 2018 (UTC)
This is not a forum for generalized discussions about the subject or Wikipedia, but a place to discuss changes to this article. ᛗᛁᛟᛚᚾᛁᚱPants Tell me all about it. 15:26, 6 February 2019 (UTC)
When I read this article the only word I'm able to think of is defamation. How much are you guys paid for writing this stuff. 80.213.77.249 (talk) 01:09, 31 December 2018 (UTC)
Yes Wikipedia is meant for defamation. Practically every article about a right-of-center political figure is chock full of defamation. If you try to remove any of it the admins will block you, so it's pretty clear that defamation is part of Wikipedia's goal. 2601:3CA:4100:5610:9D14:EE02:CCF6:D21F (talk) 08:29, 6 February 2019 (UTC)
Perhaps more constructive to this article would be to change the section heading rather than closing this section. Therefore I've "un-hatted" this section. Of course I am someone who clearly feels this article unfairly portrays Molyneux negatively. I think that there are several slightly complex reasons for this. That is why I have raised a question about this article at the WP:BLP/N.
MjolnirPants—I hope you don't mind my un-hatting this but I think "hatting" can wait for at least a little while. My apologies. Bus stop (talk) 14:12, 7 February 2019 (UTC)
nonspecific whinings. Bus stop (talk) 15:39, 7 February 2019 (UTC)
to me it is entirely obvious that Radio New Zealand is not referring to our article White genocide conspiracy theoryYou've already failed to convince anyone of that argument at BLPN. If you're just planning on using this thread to continue to repeat your already-refuted argument, then you're accomplishing nothing but facilitating further disruption on this page. ᛗᛁᛟᛚᚾᛁᚱPants Tell me all about it. 16:51, 7 February 2019 (UTC)
Jwray From what I can glean from your edit summary, you A) don't believe we have adequate sourcing to say Molyneux belives in the white genocide conspiracy theory, B) think he does, C) think it isn't a conspiracy theory and is just 'some facts about demographic changes'. Is this accurate? PeterTheFourth (talk) 01:06, 2 February 2019 (UTC)
Mr Molyneux subscribes to a conspiracy theory about a white genocide and claims that violence is caused by how women treat children. Such views prompted Auckland Council to ban them from speaking at its venues. But Immigration Minister Ian Lees-Galloway said they were still entitled to work here.PeterTheFourth (talk) 05:47, 2 February 2019 (UTC)
IMO, the onus should be on the secondary sources we cite to provide primary source citations' This is not, and likely never will, be how Wikipedia works. PeterTheFourth (talk) 06:01, 2 February 2019 (UTC)
Inclusion of the entire sentence informs the reader of one source's opinion on Molyneux. You are writing in the article "Radio New Zealand reported that Molyneux subscribes to a white genocide conspiracy theory " when the source says "Mr Molyneux subscribes to a conspiracy theory about a white genocide and claims that violence is caused by how women treat children." You are misleading the reader in several ways. We do not know that Radio New Zealand includes all of qualities found in the article White genocide conspiracy theory, the first sentence of which reads "The white genocide conspiracy theory is a neo-Nazi, alt-right, white nationalist/supremacist conspiracy theory,[1] which contends that any one of mass immigration, racial integration, miscegenation, low fertility rates, abortion, governmental land-confiscation from whites, organised violence[2] or eliminationism are being promoted in either predominantly white countries, or supposedly white-founded countries, to deliberately replace, remove, or liquidate white populations,[3] dismantle white collective power,[4] turn the countries minority-white, and hence cause white people to become extinct through forced assimilation[2] or violent genocide.[5]" The Radio New Zealand source is not referring to all of the above, is it? We are here to inform the reader, not to mislead them. The source, Radio New Zealand, says what it says, and it is only one compound sentence long. The citation provided from Radio New Zealand supports that sentence. It does so without piling additional and unknown charges on Molyneux. I am not arguing for omission of information relevant to a reliably sourced assertion. I am only objecting to turning this article into an attack page. Whenever we write an article such as this, we are balancing two interests: inform the reader but don't unnecessarily disparage the subject of the biography. That is accomplished by the various choices we make. I'm trying to dial back some of the disparagement while still allowing an assertion made by a relevant source to illuminate the subject of a biography. That is what we are here for—to tell the reader about the subject of a biography. Bus stop (talk) 01:56, 3 February 2019 (UTC)
The sentence I am suggesting for inclusion in our article is: Radio New Zealand writes that "Molyneux subscribes to a conspiracy theory about a white genocide."
Do you feel that the above suggested wording is unreasonable in any way? Bus stop (talk) 04:07, 3 February 2019 (UTC)
You are not at liberty to construe the source's import to anything that pleases you.' Pal - the source isn't the one with literacy problems, because that sentence makes absolutely zero sense in English. Further: The source is not commenting, it is reporting - it's not an opinion piece. We shouldn't care if it's negative or positive coverage because it's a reliable source, and I'm having trouble thinking of other ways to tell you this. PeterTheFourth (talk) 19:37, 3 February 2019 (UTC)
You are unnecessarily demonizing Molyneux by writing in the article that: "Radio New Zealand reported that Molyneux subscribes to a conspiracy theory about a white genocide." We do not know, because the source does not tell us, that all of the aspects of an amorphous and poorly defined "conspiracy theory" addressed in our article White genocide conspiracy theory are applicable to Molyneux. Your suggested wording amounts to an unnecessary magnification of the disparagement of Molyneux, above and beyond the actual words found in the source. I am suggesting sticking closely to the wording found in the source. I am also suggesting that our sentence not try to accomplish two things at once by additionally linking to our article on White genocide conspiracy theory at the same time that it is conveying the assertion found in the Radio New Zealand source. I am suggesting an edit simply reading: Radio New Zealand writes that "Molyneux subscribes to a conspiracy theory about a white genocide." Those are the exact words found in the source. This neither downplays nor amplifies the import of the source. By the way, our article White genocide conspiracy theory can certainly be linked-to, elsewhere in the article. But the contents of our White genocide conspiracy theory article are not known to be what Radio New Zealand had in mind. And the subject area "White genocide conspiracy theory" is not so concise or clearly defined that we can safely assume that we know what Radio New Zealand had in mind. So the way forward is to play it safe. Include the quote. Omit the internal link. Let the language of the source speak for itself. Bus stop (talk) 21:13, 3 February 2019 (UTC)
I am suggesting sticking closely to the wording found in the source'. The current wording is actually identical to that found in the source. You need to stop lying about things which are easily checked if you want to have any sense of credibility. Could you please explain why you want any of the three changes you apparently want? PeterTheFourth (talk) 09:03, 4 February 2019 (UTC)
Here is the edit I've made to address the concerns that I address above.
PeterTheFourth—I have initiated another discussion at Wikipedia:Biographies of living persons/Noticeboard#Stefan Molyneux. Bus stop (talk) 14:31, 4 February 2019 (UTC)
Actually, ALL of your links are opinion pieces, and you can tell just by reading the tendentious, value-judgment-laden headlines.Bullshit. Literally everything you said in this comment is unmitigated bullshit. If you can't engage with reality, you have no business editing this project. ᛗᛁᛟᛚᚾᛁᚱPants Tell me all about it. 12:59, 8 February 2019 (UTC)
The Southern Poverty Law Center is considered generally reliable on far-right politics.The only attribution that is directed by that summary is the labeling of hate groups, which you might note we're not discussing here. You should probably read those pages before you link to them in the future. ᛗᛁᛟᛚᚾᛁᚱPants Tell me all about it. 18:30, 8 February 2019 (UTC)
In this edit, Bus_stop removed a source because he claimed 'The source doesn't even mention Molyneux
'. If one were to actually read the source, here, and perform the most basic of searches on a browser (try ctrl+f), you will find the sentence 'These guests include Stefan Molyneux, a talk show host who promotes scientific racism, and Lauren Southern, a Canadian citizen journalist who has since been barred from entering England because of her vehement anti-Islam and anti-immigration activism.
' on the end of the first paragraph of page 12. I am finding that misreading of sources is a common problem displayed by Bus Stop. Accordingly, I have reinserted the source. PeterTheFourth (talk) 19:43, 3 February 2019 (UTC)
My recent rewrite of the FOO and Cult accusations sections was reverted. I think my edit summary did a fine job of explaining the issues with the former/current phrasing:
whipple source overweighted: reduce; merged FOO claims in with FOO views, but can be paraphrased further; [it is] non-neutral to break cult accusations to [its] own section if the claim is solely discussed in light of his views on family disassociation
What, exactly, is objectionable about the edit? We avoid "controversy" sections and this should be no different. We can easily and fairly present the cult claims in context of his FOO views. czar 21:52, 9 February 2019 (UTC)
As someone who has no real opinion of this guy but came here to find out more about him, I must say that this article comes across as extremely biased. By over representing accusations and negative comments about this guy it paints him in a completely negative lights, and subtly accuses of him sexist and racism. Providing sources for comments is not enough, since if you only items that cast him in a negative light it paints a negative picture of him.
As an example, if I were writing an article on Hitler and described him as an aspiring artist, animals rights activist and anti-smoking campaigner this would all be true. But if I left out the entire "started WWII" and "committed mass genocide" it wouldn't exactly paint an accurate picture of the man.
In the case of Stefan Molyneux the article comes across as extremely biased, as if you asked a very liberal activist to write the article. More neutral revisions are constantly overwritten by most accusatory and biased versions.
I added the following paragraph; (MarkinBoston)
This article bleeds with bias. It's full of 'people say' claims, and nothing from the man himself. Does he claim to be alt-right? What does he say about the accusation? You won't learn it at Wikipedia - this is a hack job.
MarkinBoston (talk) 19:51, 25 February 2019 (UTC)
I have tried to re-add what another editor has previously put in, under the "White genocide" section. The text seems to be pretty relevant to the section. It's a small of example of something Molyneux has said on this topic. If the section was larger, filled with other examples, I wouldn't care if this was removed, but given the current situation, it seems worthy of inclusion. I'm baffled by the editor was has reverted me, since there isn't any dispute about what Molyneux said. --Rob (talk) 01:56, 4 April 2019 (UTC)
@Newimpartial: what's the justification for this 8-word section? It goes against MOS:BIO and looks ugly. wumbolo ^^^ 22:12, 9 May 2019 (UTC)
""Radio New Zealand" reports..." is obvious WP:WEASEL. There's a ton of sources for this. The quote from SM without context is UNDUE. And, uh, Wumbolo, you're the one who removed it!Volunteer Marek (talk) 19:08, 10 May 2019 (UTC)
Hey, User:Wumbolo, this is the guy who said, quote: ""Screaming 'racism' at people because blacks are collectively less intelligent...is insane."". Are you seriously gonna sit there and pretend with a straight face that this guy isn't pushing racism, scientific or otherwise (and yes, sources say he is)? Unless you want to own that statement right there, stop removing or weaseling well sourced material.Volunteer Marek (talk) 19:11, 10 May 2019 (UTC)
@Volunteer Marek: here you remove "by CNN" when it is clearly the only citation verifying the preceding labels. Is it a mistake? wumbolo ^^^ 21:20, 10 May 2019 (UTC)
Never saw a “see also” section like this before, is it guilt by association? I think it should be deleted. Isn’t there a Catagory for people like Molyneux? Raquel Baranow (talk) 17:21, 29 May 2019 (UTC)
Hi. I came across this entry unintentionally from a google search, and made my user profile after reading the entry. The entry isn't representative of the individual as a whole. I don't think it is useful for learning about the individual, the information provided is very selective, (assuming everything in the current version of the page were true, which I personally doubt). This man is a philosopher primarily, in regard to public presence, far moreso than he is a 'white supremacist promoter', or a 'promoter of scientific racism'. His books are primarily if not exclusively pholosophy books, with eyecatching names, including ones exploring morality, ethics, authoritarianism vs anarchism, etc. He interviews people of different opinions on a variety of subjects to explore complex issues. He advocates for changing ones opinions to align with established facts, rather than say, dogma ( - or the assumption that recognition of statistics is support for them). His general methodology stems from his internal logical consistancy and his high value on the non-aggression principle. He differentiates pride from vanity, and gives away all of his works for free, living off donations. He is a survivor of childhood parental abuse who now is passionate about straightforward accountability, and helps people recognise the factors in play in regard to their own situations, as well as choices and trends of behaviour regarding those involved - Including during the call-in shows. He has often mentioned how therapy helped him, and suggests it to people. He is a proponent of peaceful parenting. I've been listening to him sporadically for several years, and the current page as of writing this is simply not representative of him. It seems more like an attempt to get people to treat and consider him with unconditional negative regard than a wiki entry. ClaustrumAlan (talk) 14:11, 1 June 2019 (UTC)
Serious question: How are the “Southern Poverty Law Center” and “NBC News” reliable sources? Obviously they are not considered academic sources by any stretch of the imagination. What is their reliability based on? I haven’t posted that much on Wikipedia since I joined, but I honestly don’t understand what is considered a reliable source. In this case these sources are claiming that Molyneux promotes “white supremacist views”. Now I don’t agree with everything Molyneux says, but I’ve watched a quite lot of his content on youtube and he has never promoted any such thing. He never talks about “white supremacy” or anything even related to it. Seriously. What is going on here?MoMoBig (talk) 18:17, 22 July 2019 (UTC)
Thank you. I will look into the discussion about what is considered a reliable source. But another question: Why is the “promotes white supremacist views” in the very first sentence about Molyneux. Who determines that? I am asking because Molyneux has done thousands of hours of talks and interviews. I’ve listened to a considerable amount of it and the overwhelming majority of his content is totally unrelated to the stuff that is claimed in this wikipedia article. There are plenty of other wikipedia articles, where the first paragraph about a person literally just quotes stuff from that persons own book or website. Why would this not be the case here? MoMoBig (talk) 18:09, 23 July 2019 (UTC)
The SPLC for example has fished through thousands of hours of Molyneux’s shows and taken some soundbites (mostly out of context) to paint the guy in this light. In my opinion this is just straight up slender. I also still do not know where it could be disputed whether something is a reliable source or not. The list that I found had NBC(!) listed as a reliable source. Where can I dispute this? Also, the things given as sources for this article are basically opinion pieces. Does that mean, that if some webpage was declared reliable, opinion pieces on it count as facts? MoMoBig (talk) 09:59, 8 August 2019 (UTC)
SPLC is a far-left source, relying on it to write the article completely removes it from reality.
Not going to bother editing (good luck trying to find sources that are "credible", as if the new york times is after they linked phillip de franco to the alt right) but I want to add that I was also shocked when I read this wikipedia article. It is insanely biased, to the point my jaw dropped. It uses really weaselly methods in an attempt to link him to the alt right. Referencing studies that have proved that race affects IQ is not white supremacy, especially since non white races dominate the IQ spectrum. Is he conservative? Probably. A nazi? No. This whole thing is really detestable and makes me lose hope in this website's neutrality. The fact that some random journalist's absolutely uneducated opinion constitutes a reliable source just because it is attached to a big name newspaper blows my mind. 24.194.186.225 (talk) 02:30, 4 August 2019 (UTC)
Is there some reason for this? DemonDays64 (talk) 16:46, 11 July 2019 (UTC)
@Menacinghat: the sources are questionable
you can then take them to WP:RSN. On the other hand, the WP:LEAD should be a summary of the article and although far-right is found in the titles and sources of various citations, it's currently not in the body itself. Alt-right is, in the body and the lead, which may be enough (and is a subset of far-right)... As such I'll personally let your change stand. —PaleoNeonate – 08:20, 17 July 2019 (UTC)
Why is it that whenever I try to read articles on anti-communist thinkers, the user Grayfell almost always awkardly finds himself in the article's edit history? I guess I (as most people) have given up trying to counter this leftist bias among wikipedia editors (my attempts to fix Gavin's article were rejected), I should at least mention it here in this talk page. No mention of Molyneux's most important works were even mentioned (ie. his secular theory of ethics, his peaceful parenting advocacy which EVERYONE knows him for, and most importantly his anarchism/anarcho-capitalism.) This article is a joke - it mostly mentions the slanders leftists lobbed at him, never the praises. Dennisne (talk) 13:42, 11 August 2019 (UTC)
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