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What is the etymology of the word "Soviet"? I know it comes from the title of the worker's councils, but does it have any other relevance? For example, "America" comes from "Amerigo Vespucci".
ThisMunkey (talk) 08:04, 12 February 2008 (UTC)
(Comment from visitor): I agree that it would be useful to add this information - I actually came to this page trying to find out what the word 'Soviet' meant, and did not find the answer until I looked at this talk page. Perhaps an explaination that the word 'Soviet' refers to the nature or design of the workers' councils could be added to the article.
ThisMunkey (talk) 08:04, 12 February 2008 (UTC)
whats with all the suppression and assassinations during the soviet times =?! —Preceding unsigned comment added by 217.94.236.185 (talk) 17:19, 16 December 2007 (UTC)
I typed in Soviet and got Soviet Union. Its like typing in United and getting United Kingdom... I can work out what a Soviet is but its not as nice as being told where he come from(Soviet Union is only a big place.. . :) ThisMunkey (talk) 08:04, 12 February 2008 (UTC)
In the Post-Stalin Soviet Union section, it's mentioned that: "Throughout the period, the Soviet Union maintained parity with or superiority to the United States in the areas of military numbers and formations, but this expansion ultimately crippled the economy."
While I do not have much in the way of doubts that it crippled the economy, isn't it the case that the parity or superiority of the Soviet Union to the US, military-wise, turned out to be a myth promulgated by one part of the US government or intelligence apparatus that was at odds with another part of the US government? I vaguely recall that it was mentioned that, during Gerald Ford's administration, certain elements insisted that we build up defense because the Soviet Union had some sort of secret super-weapons despite the CIA's insistence that the USSR did not even have parity with the US, and despite the fact that those pushing for this defense buildup couldn't produce such evidence either.
Take this with a grain of salt, as I'm trying to remember something I read a while back. I'm thinking that, at the very least, there should be some sort of citation for the statement made in the article.--King V (talk) 20:02, 27 January 2008 (UTC)
I am not sure whether this could be of interest to members of this forum, but I created a table with Olympic medal statistics that includes a total medal count for the USSR and its successor organization CIS (among many other things). I'd be glad if someone could find some time to comment on this: Olympic Medal Statistics: Medal Count Winners. Thanks a lot in advance! Medalstats 16:37, 30 March 2006 (UTC)
In fact, recently someone nominated this table for deletion. Whether it really should be deleted is being discussed here: this article's entry. Medalstats 14:41, 31 March 2006 (UTC)
-G
There is not enough mention of the People's Republic of China, such as tensions during the Khrushchev era, in the foreign relations section of this article. Also no mention of China's Tiananmen Square demonstration in June 1989 (Gorbachev was there when it happened!), which was a major impetus for the fall of the Berlin Wall and subsequent collapse of the USSR.
"For the majority of Soviet citizens, therefore, religion seemed irrelevant."
Citation please, even though half professed themselves atheist, does that mean they found the murder of priests and the closure of churches 'irrelevant'? Atheist POV has been allowed to fester for too long, the Atheist race must come to terms with the fact that Atheists do not OWN wikipedia, and that POV doesn't apply just to Religious pages. So can the Madalyn Murray O'Hair bullshit and deal with the facts.
AND WHAT A POV IS? THANK YOU ThisMunkey (talk) 08:06, 12 February 2008 (UTC)
In the article it states that we have a picture of the soviet flag being lowered for the first time, further study notes that it is NOT a true picture, but from a movie. Should be noted.
its fun to have a wikipedia account!
I'm going to put the conclusions of the peer review below:
1. adding references, preferably with the use of Wikipedia:Footnotes.
2. History section seem POVed: The article states: [after 1945] The Soviet Union aided postwar reconstruction in Eastern Europe. I'd very much like to learn how? SU forbade them to join the Marshall Plan, took (part of?) their part of repatriations from Germany and gave what in return? The communist economy? The history section also makes no reference to the Soviet invasion of Poland in 1939, and I see no mention of how it gained control of Eastern Europe, killed of or forced into exile any opposition, and ruled over its satellite states for the next four and a half decades (if you haven't read it, I recommend History of Poland (1945-1989), a Featured Article). Besides the Soviet invasion of Afghanistan, such events as the 1956 Hungarian Revolution, Prague Spring, Cuban Missile Crisis and the Sino-Soviet split should be mentioned as well. Then there is not a single word of those satellites slipping the SU grip (Solidarność) and how that contributed to the eventual fall of the SU.
The Soviet Union DID aid postwar reconstruction in Eastern Union. Tons of supplies and lots of workers were sent to rebuild the economy. You can accuse USSR of political mistakes but not with NOT helping the new created Soviet controlled states. Just the opposite: the Soviet Union strived to build communism in GDR and other republics, therefore investing heavily in their economy. --Davydov 23:49, 19 April 2006 (UTC)
3. sections like 'Geography' are a stub-sections (expand), 'Culture' is a list (write!).
4. Remove see also sections from mainbody, and transform them, as well as some of the main articles, into the proper {{details}}.
5. economics section: 'Soviet citizens of the 1980s had economic parity to the West.' - what?? source please. I wouldn't call the shortage economy parity. And one of the few bright sides of the Soviet economy, its independence of the business cycles and thus depressions (including the Great one and the Oil Depression of the 70's) are glaring omission from this section.
"Although Stalin tried to avert war with Germany by concluding the Nazi-Soviet Nonaggression Pact" - POV. Stalin's intentions are still not clear. Maybe he just wanted to secure his part of Poland, who knows.
"Battle of Stalingrad in 1943" - it took part mostly in 1942, with only last month or so in 1943 —Preceding unsigned comment added by 195.128.182.143 (talk • contribs) 02:02, 25 December 2005
I've taken the liberty of adding in some photos/images from commons, I think it improves the article, however feel free to remove/replace some if you can find more appropriate ones, there are thousands to choose from on commons. See WPSU page for links. - FrancisTyers 23:54, 6 December 2005 (UTC)
Should the Gulag system be mentioned somewhere on the page or at least linked off it. I think it could safely come in the history section, the politics section or the economy section. It is definately notable, being one of the things that probably comes to mind (at least in the West) when you hear USSR. Some suggestions would be welcome. - FrancisTyers 20:11, 9 December 2005 (UTC)
Gulags are not worth mentioning in this article, but definately in articles on Stalin or WWII. The Gulag system did not exist past Stalin.
I think that there should be a brief section about the Gulags somewhere in this article with it then linking to the Gulag page for more detail on the subject.--Rhydd Meddwl 16:52, 22 March 2006 (UTC)
"[D]id not exist past Stalin"?!! That will come as a great surprise to the million or so arrested and imprisoned after Stalin's death (and an even greater surprise to the families of those murdered in Gulag during the period). See, for example, Wikip.'s own article on the subject. For a more thorough investigation of Gulag Post-Stalin, see the Gulag Archipelago. Harrowing stuff. Even worse is your suggestion that the apotheosis of the terror systenm that kept Stalin (and yes, his sucessors!) in power is "not worth mentioning." That is as absurd as it is grotesque. (See patent nonsense) Literally tens of millions passed through Gulag's maw, and it was intrumental in underpinning the political and social apparatus of the Soviet state, as well as being directly responsible (through slave labor) such massive projects as the Belomorkanal The suggestion that it is not worth mentioning is an insult to the millions of victims of Soviet State terror. While an editor more expert than I should add the section (the authors of the Gulag article spring to mind) I willl add the necessary passage, if no one else does. Reimelt 21:41, 30 March 2006 (UTC)
First, where did I say an "army" of sucessors? Second, Nikita was not the only sucessor to use prison camps, it continued (but by no means thrived) up to and including Breshnev. Next, where did I say that the CCCP was nothing but a big gulag?
More important, you translate,'"художественное исследование", as "fiction research," implying that G. Arch. is meant to be fiction. This is either a matter of poor translation, or deliberate apology. The phrase in English is "literary investigation;" there is no implication in the phrase that G.A. is anything but his attmpt to give a non-fiction account. If you have evidence that contradicts the book, by all means point to it; please don't use a mistranslation of the phrase that describes the book's style as evidence of the veracity of the contents. Moreover, Solzhenytsyn is "biased" because he lived through it? Of course he's biased against Gulag, what victim would not be One is reminded of Churchill's immortal response when he was accused of bias in his journalism: "I refuse utterly to be impartial between the fire brigade and the fire." Additionally, what, pray, is an "unfair prisoner"[sic]? And, yes, S. is angry--why shouldn't he be? How does this invalidate his eye-witness account?
Gulag Arch. aside, If you really believed that Krushchev completely shut down the Gulag, then why on Earth aren't you busy editing the entry on "Gulag" instead of accusing fellow editors of being "emotional" (whatever that means in this context) with no evidence about an issue (the inclusion of Gulag) you concede you don't care about. On reflection, yes, my comments here are emotional--the systematic murder of a million and a half innocent people tends to do that. However, that's why it's here in Talk, and not in the encyclopedia article itself. Sir, as I have not chaged even a commma on the article itself, don't you think it's a bit premature to warn of Solzhenitsyn-dominated anything. More to the point, I do not think (and never suggested) S.'s book is by any means the last word in Gulag research; however, that the Soviet government imprisoned millions post-Stalin is admitted by the Soviet and now Russian goivernment itself. Finally, I note that you comment not at all on the (yes, Post-Stalin) construction projects that relied on gulag slave labor.
I still hope that my OP will garner commments from fellow editors who are able to give a list of Soviet leaders beyond Stalin that consist of more than a single name. Surely, there must be someone more informed than this! I remain convinced that an article about the CCCP that doesn't include GULAG is like an article on Germany without showa. Reimelt 18:41, 17 April 2006 (UTC)
When the issue boils down to what to include and what not to include, it really is a partial decision. For instance, in the Wikipedia article on the US, I saw nothing about the Japanese internment camps during WWII. What parameters should be set for deciding?
And what does Germany have to do with "showa?" Kozlovesred 00:01, 18 April 2006 (UTC)
Showa is a less popular transliteration of the hebrew for "calamity." More commonly Sho'ah or shoah. It refers to the holocaust. As to parameters--that's exactly the discussion I'd like us to have. A quick glance at the Wikipedia entry for gulag seems to demand a short section and link here as millions were imprisoned for many years and at least a million were killed. I'm all for a short reference to Japanese interment in the U.S. article (although, of course any equivalence here is, to be blunt, ludicrous.) One caution here, however, even if the U.S. article, or the article on, say, Pol Pot are incomplete, that really has nothing to do, strictly speaking, with an article on the Soviet Union. If you mean that it is inconsistent to include the camps of the S.U. and not the U.S., I agree, let's include both in their respective entries. However, let's tackle the article that this page discusses, without enlarging the problem. Reimelt 19:59, 18 April 2006 (UTC)
"Showa!" You learn something new everyday!
I suppose my only concern has to do with the inclusion serving as a portal to a pathological anti-communism; not the kind that loathes Stalin and his crimes, but the Richard Pipes and Robert Conquest type, which paint the USSR in the worst possible light in all circumstances. The US article is incomplete for a reason. The anti-communist propaganda drilled into people's heads from a young age serves a purpose. Kozlovesred 04:26, 19 April 2006 (UTC)
I'm all for balance here. It seems to me the section should be short, link to the real gulag article. and emphasize that the overwhelming impact of Gulag was under Stalin. Still, it should make clear that prison camps did not evaporate with the death of J.S. Telling the truth about Gulag needn't devolve into antii-soviet propaganda, especially if the lion's share of the fault is assigned to Stalin. 02:51, 20 April 2006 (UTC)
The Gulag should be mentioned. But there should be no separate section on the Gulag. All topics in Soviet history-- from the Gulag to glasnost-- is supposed to be covered under the single "history" section. So I added content on the subject in the history section. 172 | Talk 04:37, 20 April 2006 (UTC)
40 million people died in gulags- the soviet concentration camps- and its not even mentioned in this article ? ! —Preceding unsigned comment added by 217.94.236.185 (talk) 17:35, 16 December 2007 (UTC)
" Soviet leaders faced a fundamental dilemma: the strong central controls of the increasingly conservative bureaucracy that had traditionally guided economic development had failed to promote the creativity and productivity urgently needed in a highly developed, modern economy."
I find this to be bious. If the industry lags in quality and efficiency because of heavy bureaucracy of central planning, then individual creativity is not the solution. Creativity would be the means to improve quality and efficiency but not strictly the strategy. It implies that creativity is a value in itself and that everyone should choose the creative worker. It's derived from market economy where this consept is used as a competitive advantage. The correct solution to the bureaucracy of the central planning is to change the bureaucratic form of administration. You can't have creativity if you don't create better conditions for it. On the other hand you shouldn't scrap an entire government system just because it causes insufficient production with quality. The current notion talks about an absolut and a trademark in competition and ignores the past system of the Soviet Union. It is as if we shouldn't even consider other systems than the market economy. This should revised. Teemu Ruskeepää
The box seems too big because of the large sized map.
It contains mostly biased pro-Soviet description of the SU in 1980ties, but the SU existed 70 years. The Council of Europe about the SU: http://assembly.coe.int/Mainf.asp?link=/Documents/AdoptedText/ta06/Eres1481.htm Xx236 14:34, 26 January 2006 (UTC)
Who is the Council of Europe? Why they not write a similar declaration about the fascism in Spain or Portugal in the second half of the XX century? In Spain there are already a thousands of fascists.
How a text about a non-existing state can describe mostly its last ten years of existence and omit the other 60? Which text has been generated by the USL? The one in the WIkipedia? Where is the border between the Wikipedia and the USL? Xx236 13:58, 27 January 2006 (UTC)
How is what the Council of Europe saying about the SU NOT biased as well? Kozlovesred 17:29, 26 January 2006 (UTC)
Please, prove that the SU didn't murder tens of millions, didn't introduce total censorship, didn't destroy the Orthodox church and many other churches. Xx236 13:58, 27 January 2006 (UTC)
Where is the Katyn crime? 1940. Nothing. You may check if the massacres of prisoners after the German invasion are described under 1941. Xx236 15:13, 27 January 2006 (UTC)
Now I'm also not exactly a lover of the bureaucracy in the SU, but I am also aware that there is a large Western bias AGAINST it, bordering on the pathological, and that should be considered. There's a huge double standard when it comes to describing anything SU and anything West. Take, for instance, the FDR or Churchill page, which wax elegant about their "personal charm," hardly mentioning anything about Churchill's "butchering at Gallipoli." Did the SU murder millions? Yes, it did, but so did the US, either directly or indirectly, and you don't see anything so general as that in ITS article. Did the SU introduce censorship? Yes, it did, but what about the US during WWI, WWII, Vietnam, and right now? Did the SU destroy the Orthodox Church? It depends on which period you're talking about. I'm not justifying the crimes of the bureaucracy, but a pathological hatred against the SU has no place on Wikipedia. If one is going to apply such general epithets against the Soviet Union, without any contextual basis for their claims, much less an understanding of WHY they happened, (implying simply that the bureaucracy was composed of just a bunch of "evil" "bloodthirsty" tyrants), I will delete it. This is not how history is done. Kozlovesred 16:39, 27 January 2006 (UTC)
There is a pro-Soviet bias in many Western texts. Cold war - really. Xx236 14:17, 31 January 2006 (UTC)
I have several arguments of the same kind for you
Xx236 13:46, 2 February 2006 (UTC)
The problem is one of proportion. The US didn't send millions of its own people into forced labour camps. It certainly did NOT censor as consistently as the USSR. Censorship in the US was intermittent and limited; it was a fact of life in the USSR from 1917 until 1991 (and beyond). Kozlovesred, I have a feeling you want to be "fair"; but equating things that are not equal does not make you NPOV.
Cvereb 11:03, 4 February 2006 (UTC)
Gotcha! It did: during the Great Depression of the 30s thousands of people, most of them "army age" 18-25 were sent to massive labour camps in the 1930s to avoid revolutions and civil unrest. Same years. And censorship in USSR was CANCELED in 1960s by Khrushev ( at least to some extent)--Davydov 23:58, 19 April 2006 (UTC)
By Jove, Davydov led me to remember! If the projects like the TVA after the Great Depression weren't forced labor camps, then what was? And that was millions we're talking about.. Kozlovesred 00:06, 20 April 2006 (UTC)
No, the US did not send millions of its own people into forced labor camps, but then we're talking about the US, not the USSR, a section of the world with its own history and rate of development. Censorship in the US was introduced frequently in the 20th century, and there is every right to believe that it will be again. Besides, I'm sure you're aware of the pervasive socialization process in the US, quite the powerful propaganda machine. Also, the USSR didn't have a progressive liberal past; it had only a feudal one to contend with. The purpose of my above rant was to highlight the double standard behind historical analysis. And this is nothing strange. History is a cooperative affair. Let's try to make it as neutral as possible. Kozlovesred 16:36, 6 February 2006 (UTC)
Not to mine the topic or anything, but wasn't the complaint that the article focuses too heavily on the end of the USSR instead of the beginning, not that the US did or did not treat its citizens better than the USSR did? How about we just try to get some extra data from pre-Cold War and be done with it? This hogwash about who has polish sympathies and "the Jews" is pretty irrelevant. 129.237.90.22 (talk) 02:41, 26 February 2008 (UTC)
Am I dreaming? You call the genocide "separation"? Do you understand meaning of words? I can imagine your "pov" version of the Holocaust. Xx236 14:10, 27 January 2006 (UTC)
Would you please not teach me? ~I'll do what I want. Do I understand you correctly that Poles and citizens of Baltic States are people don't have the right to discuss? Xx236 14:15, 31 January 2006 (UTC)
The whole text is biased. There are thousends of books describing Soviet crimes, crazy economy, censorship. How is it possible to ignore everything? Xx236 13:41, 2 February 2006 (UTC)
It is NPOV, irrespective of its depiction of a leader or a régime if it is objective fact without judgment and loaded language. What Messhermit simplifies as "bad" is in practice "what most people consider objectionable. The mass death attributed to Josef Stalin's régime is a documented fact, as is the Holocaust. It is up to the reader of a Wikipedia article to decide on his own whether the mass death linked to Stalin is evil. Saying that Stalin was evil for his culpability in millions is POV even if the common knowledge that he promoted and enforced a forced collectivization that led to the deaths of millions through starvation and coercive methods of enforcement of his vision. Check the article on Adolf Hitler; it documents deeds that most people considers monstrous crimes without directly calling him evil. To state that others considered him fantastically evil, as to cite Sir Winston Churchill's quip that upon the start of Operation Barbarossa, that he would have to say some good words on the behalf of the Devil if Hitler ever invaded Hell, is to make an objective statement that Churchill considered Hitler monstrously evil and that, at least at the time, Stalin was the lesser of two evils. That wartime propaganda of the Third Reich consistently depicted Churchill through word and image as monstrously evil shows so much that Churchill was evil but that the Nazis thought him evil.
It would be non-NPOV to deny the mass deaths, to deny a link to them with Stalin, to state that culpability lies entirely with underlings who went "too far" without the knowledge or consent of Stalin, or to offer an absurdly-small and contrafactual number of deaths as the consequences of the Soviet policies under Stalin (as in, "it was only a few tens of thousands"). It is also non-POV to call Stalin the Antichrist or to use a colorful-but-loaded metaphor such as "butchering", "slaughter", or "carnage". Likewise, the use of the word "crazy" or "mad" to describe the Soviet economy under Josef Stalin and his successors is loaded. Stalin seemed to think that his effort to hasten modernization of the Soviet Union was not only sane, but necessary. Others might think differently -- but that is opinion. Wikipedia is for facts, and not judgment.
It is not the function of Wikipedia to decide ethical issues, even the most basic one that distinguishes good and evil at their most apparent manifestations to most people. Such is for people to do themselves, and those who do what most people consider "evil" risk the consequences of legal judgment (to the extent of capital punishment in the case of serial murderers Ted Bundy and Andrei Chikatilo), a catastrophic personal end (Hitler shooting himself on a sofa as the Red Army closed in on his bunker) or at the least, unflattering depictions in history among those who have the choice to write it (Stalin is vilified almost everywhere these days, including the former Soviet Union and its satellites that he shaped and whose influence upon demographic and economic reality remains extant).
What is acceptable in a news or history chat is not always acceptable in Wikipedia. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Paul from Michigan (talk • contribs) 09:41, 2 December 2007 (UTC)
What happened to religious people between 1917 and 1980? No word here about the persecutions. Xx236 14:46, 31 January 2006 (UTC)
Is Solshenitsin NPOV? I believe he has described the fate of Orthodox clergy in Gulag. What NPOV sources have you got? Soviet laws? Xx236 13:38, 2 February 2006 (UTC)
Solzenetzyn is far from NPOV. Kozlovesred 18:19, 2 February 2006 (UTC)
From the section on Religious groups:
From the main article Religion in the Soviet Union:
I find it hard to believe that there is no mention of persecutions when the article explicitly mentions persecutions. I think a more careful reading of the article would allay some of your worries that some aspects of the Soviet Union aren't covered appropriately. I would encourage you to make specific complaints about sections of the article. - FrancisTyers 19:42, 2 February 2006 (UTC) The article Religion in the Soviet Union, but not the Soviet Union. The Soviet Union calls extermination - separation. When KGB nominated Orthodox bishops it's not "separation" but styate control over the Orthodox church. Xx236 12:41, 6 February 2006 (UTC)
Rooting out superstition and backwardness required drastic measures, and for that the Bolsheviks under Lenin should be commended, not blamed.
—Preceding unsigned comment added by Kozlovesred (talk • contribs)
Mr Anonim, do you mean that if special atheistic forces destroy 100 000 churches in the USA and kill one million of religious people, the GNP will radically grow? Xx236 12:37, 6 February 2006 (UTC)
The material conditions have to be addressed first. But there is no doubt that religion should go the way of the dinosaur. We live in the 21st century! Kozlovesred 16:29, 6 February 2006 (UTC)
It describes in biased pro-Soviet way the SU in the 1980-ties. It's not an article about an existing state, beacuse the SU doesn't exist any more. It's not an historical article, because it concentrates on the 1980-ties. Xx236 14:51, 31 January 2006 (UTC)
I have read hundreds of texts, including Russian ones, about the SU and used to live under Soviet occupation. I doubt very much that I can learn something more. The texts your like describe the SU as it was 1989 (or maybe as it was seen in 1989, before the archives were opened. It's a snapshot. You may write your text "Soviet Union in 1989". "Soviet Union" should describe 70+ years.
Xx236 14:16, 1 February 2006 (UTC)
The article is not very good indeed. With such a subject we are reaching the limits of NPOV. One has to be very cautious when editing. I scrapped a few words saying that Russia invaded the Baltic states before WWII "to prevent Nazi invasion": that seemed not-so-subtly non-neutral. Russia had its own, less disinterested motives such as expanding its own sphere. So, rather than keeping just that one motivation, I remomved these words. Cvereb
Thje article is "very good" the same like "Soviet democracy" was democratic or "Soviet economy" was economic. Xx236 13:35, 17 February 2006 (UTC)
Saying that the USSR "aided postwar reconstruction in Eastern Europe" sounds really gross. They didn't send funds for reconstruction (they couldn't possibly have done so) and prevented Eastern European countries from accepting the Marshall plan. I think they exploited Eastern Europe, but don't have facts or sources to back it up. They are known to have dismantled factories in former German territories to rebuild them in the USSR. It would be closer to the truth to say that the USSR "was aided by Eastern Europe". To remain NPOV, let's just say that they "extended their influence on Eastern Europe", or something to that effect. Cvereb 11:14, 4 February 2006 (UTC)
The Soviet Union DID aid postwar reconstruction in Eastern Union. Tons of supplies and lots of workers were sent to rebuild the economy. You can accuse USSR of political mistakes but not with NOT helping the new created Soviet controlled states. Just the opposite: the Soviet Union strived to build communism in GDR and other republics, therefore investing heavily in their economy. --Davydov 23:49, 19 April 2006 (UTC)
I don't know why the LC supports Soviet propaganda. Maybe they don't have funds to review, what an ignorant wrote in 1989? But they have written: "Instead, the Soviet Union compelled Soviet-occupied Eastern Europe to supply machinery and raw materials." The SU delivered machinery and raw materials to construct ironworks in Communist countries. The technology (and ecology) was obsolete and the quality of the machinery was low. I don't know what the prices were. Poland had to deliver coal, almost free. Even Polish Communists protested in 1956. Xx236 12:25, 6 February 2006 (UTC)
But Wikipedia isn't Gulag. Xx236 08:14, 19 February 2006 (UTC)
The main objective of Wikipedia is to present a fair an accurate NPOV version of historical events. In these article, we are not pointing out that Everything was good in the USSR. That would be a violation of the NPOV policy. However, your clear anti-soviet POV, reaganism and polish/baltic nationalism are clearly a POV. Once you get rid of those feelings, feel free to come and make interesting and reasonable contributions. Messhermit 17:31, 19 February 2006 (UTC) Once you learn the Soviet history, feel free to contribute. Xx236 12:57, 27 February 2006 (UTC)
Just responding to the point about the USSR dismantling German factories, this happened in the West too. Many politicians in the West wanted to turn Germany into an agricultural country with little industry. in 1945, there were no firm plans what to do with the 4 occupation zones. It was only as the Cold War escalated and the West saw the advantages of having a pro-Western government in(West) Germany that they introduced the currency reform and started helping to rebuild the country.
From Libarary of Congress:
As for the Russian Orthodox Church, Soviet authorities have sought to control it and, in times of national crisis, to exploit it for the regime's own purposes; but their ultimate goal has been to eliminate it. During the first five years of Soviet power, the Bolsheviks executed 28 Russian Orthodox bishops and over 1,200 Russian Orthodox priests. Many others were imprisoned or exiled. Believers were harassed and persecuted. Most seminaries were closed, and publication of most religious material was prohibited. By 1941 only 500 churches remained open out of about 54,000 in existence prior to World War I.
Xx236 09:36, 19 February 2006 (UTC)
The text "Religious groups" describes probably an another country than "Religion in the Soviet Union", because they are so different. Xx236 13:05, 27 February 2006 (UTC)
The state was separated from church by the Decree of Council of People's Comissars 1918 January 23. Official figures on the number of religious believers in the Soviet Union were not available in 1989.
But according to various Soviet and Western sources, over one-third of the people in the Soviet Union, an officially atheistic state, professed religious belief. Christianity and Islam had the most believers.
Christians belonged to various churches: Orthodox, which had the largest number of followers; Catholic; and Baptist and various other Protestant sects, the Baptists (Protestants) suffering the most government persecution with children being forbidden to attend home services and church leaders frequently imprisoned.
Government persecution of Christians continued unabated until the fall of the Communist government. There were many churches in the country (7500 Russian Orthodox churches in 1974).
Although there were many ethnic Jews in the Soviet Union, actual practice of Judaism was rare in Communist times. Jews were the victims of state-sponsored anti-semitism and were one of the few Soviet citizens allowed to emigrate from the country.
What you mean - it is rare? Thera are several Judaic sinagogues in SU, e.g. in Moscow. Also, why do you think buddhists number in USSR was less than Jews? Please note, Jews are mainly urban population, more government-controlled and atheistic.
Other religions, which were practiced by a relatively small number of believers, included Buddhism, Lamaism, and shamanism, a religion based on spiritualism. The role of religion in the daily lives of Soviet citizens varied greatly.
The majority of the Islamic faithful were Sunni. Because Islamic religious tenets and social values of Muslims are closely interrelated, religion appeared to have a greater influence on Muslims than on either Christians or other believers.
Two-thirds of the Soviet population, however, had no religious beliefs. About half the people, including members of the CPSU and high-level government officials, professed atheism. For the majority of Soviet citizens, therefore, religion seemed irrelevant.
Proposed version:
Calling Soviet genocide "Separation of the church" is a lie. Stop your Soviet propaganda. Xx236 10:19, 2 March 2006 (UTC)
Messhemit, you asked me to not discuss with you - respect your words. I call "Soviet Genocide" the murders of religious people in the SU, both Soviet citizens and people under Soviet occupation Xx236 15:57, 3 March 2006 (UTC)
Well I know of several Russians that lived under Soviet regime and some of them were very religious and they were respected. They also told me stories about the reconstruction of several Churches in USSR after WWII and Revolution and some of those people and/or their relatives contributed to those reconstructions. In my perspective it's dubious that there was any kind of anti-religious Genocide taking that into consideration. 201.129.240.39 17:03, 29 July 2006 (UTC) ZealotKommunizma
From what I've heard comming from these Russians I know is that in school they were taught that Religion was something like a "fable" rather than something true thus meaning Soviet state tried to make religious faith to gradually dissapear. Knowing that, religious leaders could have done "anti-state-policies" movements which could have led to repression of those movements, nonetheless I truly doubt that a person would be repressed just because of believing in any certain religion. 201.129.240.39 15:42, 30 July 2006 (UTC) ZealotKommunizma
Although Stalin tried to cooperate with Germany by concluding the Nazi-Soviet Nonaggression Pact, which involved the engagement of Red Army into Lithuania, Latvia, Estonia, the invasion of Poland in 1939.
In late november of the same year, the Soviet Union demanded Finland strategical islands and ports (Petsamo's convoited nickel stores). The Finnish ministers tried frantic negociations with Stalin, in answer, the latter asked the Finns to move back their border from 30km. President Kallio refused and the negocations failed, ensueing the 1939-1940 Finland Winter War. The five fronts conflict, targeting ports such as Petsamo and the capital, started by the 30th of november in the morning, with the Red Army's bomber fleat attacking Helsinki before the heavy infantry starts its offensive on military and non-military Finnish positions. Commander Mannerheim took the lead of the Finnish army, adopting the guerilla tactics a 4 million people country only can afford to confront a 180 million people superpower and the world's first army. Where the Red Army send modern tanks, Mannerheim's partisans used to hide limited artillery pieces and employ alpine skiing white dressed men, sleds and horses as the only efficient way to transport men and troops by the 40/50-below zero Arctic winter. Applying Mannerheim's words "Nothing but scorched earth cursed by God will fall into Russian hands. The Finland of today will never fail thus we stand for the right in the name of democracy, we'll live in shining light through all of tomorrows of eternity", the Finns adopted the scorched earth policy used before by Russians against Napoleon's Grand Army. They destroyed their own villages thus depriving their enemy of shelter and supplies, forcing him to seek frozen food in junks. [citation needed] The Nazi Germany invaded the Soviet Union in 1941. It has been debated that the Soviet Union had the intention of invading Germany once it was strong enough. The Red Army stopped the Nazi offensive, with the Battle of Stalingrad from late 1942 to early 1943 being the major turning point, and drove through Eastern Europe to Berlin before Germany surrendered in 1945 (see Great Patriotic War). Although ravaged by the war, the Soviet Union emerged from the conflict as an acknowledged superpower.
There is probably a call for a sentence or two on the Winter War, but not nearly this much information, the article is big enough already and this is probably covered in the History of the Soviet Union series of articles. - FrancisTyers 19:46, 15 March 2006 (UTC)
Repost.
EDIT: ok no problem about this. EnthusiastFRANCE 23:05, 15 March 2006 (UTC)
So here is the sentence: "In late november 1939, unable to obtain strategical Finnish ports control (Petsamo) in a diplomatic way, Staline conducted a blitzkrieg in Finland, known as the Winter War." (mistakes as well)
Das ist gut! (für meinen Freund Scaife), perfect Francis, couldn't have done better myself hehe! (je n'aurai pas mieux fait, faites comme chez vous). Write at your ease. ;) EnthusiastFRANCE 23:38, 15 March 2006 (UTC)
We've had a little back and forth trying to get an accurate story of population change. It is extremely important to keep the periods (dates) in mind to avoid overgeneralizing about birth and death rates. The BSE (Great Soviet Encyclopedia) is not the most reliable source of information because it seems to avoid some of the blank spots, especially the well documented evidence of mortality increases among working age males and among infants in the 1970s. The previous version of this article that I amended referred to the situation through 1974. That's a bit of an artful choice of years by the BSE, since it was really in 1974 that the infant mortality rates rose sharply, and shortly thereafter the government literally stopped publishing mortality data for several years. When it resumed such publication in the latter 1980s, it did not comment on the reasons for the infant mortality increases. However, with respect to the rise in adult male mortality, certain Russian and French demographers (Shkolnikov and Mesle among them), came up with some convincing analyses that focused on alcoholism as a major culprit.
I would add that just referring to regional differences in geographic terms (north, south) misses the important cultural fact that the high fertility rates in Central Asia were conditioned on values -- and were not simply a result of slow urbanization. Culture/religious traditions shouldn't be masked by more generic "regional" language.
I've tried to be faithful to the efforts of other authors in this section, but have been adding well documented facts based on expert analyses and not relying on an encyclopedia that glosses over the demographic reality and in any case only includes data through 1974. I hope to add more detail and citations in due course.Mack2 00:10, 6 July 2006 (UTC)
Later: I accept cmapm's advice about the Shkolnikov citation, since it carries the timeframe to post-Soviet Russia. But Shkolnikov along with Vallin, Mesle, and others, have done fundamental (and, I might add, politically dispassionate) work trying to untangle the patterns and causes of the mortality trends in the USSR in general as well as in Russia during the Soviet era and later.
I've supplied alternative citations that refer strictly to the Soviet era, though regional differences within the USSR are important to note and have been slighted throughout the USSR article as a whole.
Another important lacuna in the article is any detailed discussion of the period of collectivation (though it is mentioned briefly). It's an important reference in the context of the population section because collectivation, war, and famines were times of net population declines. Mortality rises and fertility declines in these periods. I note the Wikipedia article on "Ukrainian famine," which, however, tends to focus on this as a case of genocide and doesn't give enough attention to the evidence of famine outside of Ukraine in the same year. But that's a different subject. "Collectivization" deserves a separate article in Wikipedia.Mack2 18:25, 6 July 2006 (UTC)
I have a dilemma with Soviet losses. Here are the facts:
1- The Russian Academy of Science published a report in 1993 that gave data on the demographic impact of the war on the USSR. The losses were 26.6 million including 17 million draft aged males.
2-The official Russian military report published in 1993 listed 6.9 million confirmed dead plus 1.8 million POW and MIA deaths combined. They claim 4.5 million POW & MIA less 2.7 liberated in 1945.
3-The Germans claimed to have taken 5.7 million POW not counting Sov MIA.
4-Most western historians( I could make a list) give Sov POW losses as 3 million+. Not counting in MIA
5-An independent Russian researcher Vadim Erlikman published in 2004 a handbook of statistics on war casualties(with decent footnotes) that claimed the USSR military losses were 10.6 million in the war including 6.9 million Killed, 700,000 MIA, 2.6 million POW and 400,000 partisans and milita. His number of POW and MIA seems more credible than 1.8 million. Erlikman is not an apologist for the communist system or the Russian government. He listed an estimated 1.7 million dead due to Soviet repression in addition to war losses of 26.5 million
6-Back to the 2.7 million POWs and "Vlasovites" that were sent back to the USSR in 1945. I wonder how many are included in the total of 17 million draft aged males lost in the war. They were marched off to the Gulag. We just do not know their fate.
7-Please go to my talk page --Woogie10w 00:14, 17 March 2006 (UTC)to see a posting I copied from the Dupuy Forum on Soviet Casualties. Today there is a high level Russian military official( now he is head of the military archives) who claims there is a card file in Russia with the names of 13.8 million Soviet war dead.
I really need the help of people in Wikipedia who may have knowledge on this topic. We need to get the numbers right--Woogie10w 00:14, 17 March 2006 (UTC)
I haven't looked at these figures in some time, but may be able to check and add something. As you may know, for many years the "official" count of war dead (not talking about populatioin deficit but rather about actual number killed -- both civilian and military) was "20 million" -- a nice, round "political number." To my knowledge, in about 1988 or so analysts in Goskomstat itself finally addressed this (e.g., E. Andreyev) and published an estimate of 27 or 28 million (as I recall). There is no true "body count" to work with, partly because it's not always obvious which civilian deaths to label as "war losses," and partly because any reckoning of a counter-factual argument usually relies a lot on evidence that's very trick to use correctly, for example on infant deaths. During the siege, for example, Leningrad had infant mortality rates of over 200 per 1000 live births. But of course fertility was also down, and so these were high rates applied to a small birth cohort. And how many of these deaths should be attributed to civilian "war deaths"? After all, the "normal" infant mortality rate for that population was probably something on the order of 40 or 50 per 1000.
I hope someone can reconcile the POW and other data for you. But I think the estimate of total war dead is probably on the order of what Andreyev came up with.Mack2 00:20, 6 July 2006 (UTC)
Should I use this article as a source for my project?
This article gives the date of recognition as February 1, 1924; recognition by whom? Recognition is given by different countries in different ways and at different times. I don't think that there was any general act of widespread international recognition on this date. Whom does the 1st Feb refer to?
Xdamr 12:10, 22 April 2006 (UTC)
The large recently added section was word in word taken from MSN Encarta , this seems to be copyvio:see copyright notice on that page. I'm removing it. Feel free to revert my changes and give a rationale for this here. Cmapm 22:39, 23 April 2006 (UTC)
I believe, that the following excerpt should be reworded or removed: "Politically the USSR was divided (from 1940 to 1991) into 15 constituent or union republics — Armenian SSR, Azerbaijan SSR, Byelorussian SSR, Estonian SSR, Georgian SSR, Kazakh SSR, Kirghiz SSR, Latvian SSR, Lithuanian SSR, Moldavian SSR, Russian SFSR, Tajik SSR, Turkmen SSR, Ukrainian SSR, and Uzbek SSR — joined in a strongly centralized federal union."
USSR contained some republics since its establishment, besides, in 1940-1956 it had 16, not 15 republics. Cmapm 23:20, 23 April 2006 (UTC)
Why is the article on the Soviet Union illustrated with the picture of an ATOMIC BOMB exploding? While at the same time the article on the United States has no pictures of atomic bombs exploding! I am in no way siding the Soviet regime here, but I want to point out that the POV is obvious. If any of these articles should be illustrated with the A-bomb it should be the US. The USA was the first country to develop the atomic bomb, and in history, the USA is the only country that has used atomic bombs in war! Bronks 10:46, 25 April 2006 (UTC)
That's a good point, Bronks. Anybody have any ideas over how to change this? Kozlovesred 16:19, 25 April 2006 (UTC)
AS a communist, I must say that the USSR, though proclaiming itself led by the Communist Party, is essentially a state capitalist nation. I wonder if I'm the only person who would like this changed, as it belittles and soils the name of communists everywhere. Mellesime 12:59, 04 May 2006
I disagree. It wasn't a state capitalist nation, for even though it degenerated into totalitarian dictatorship, the economic foundations established by the October Revolution were preserved until this criminal bureaucracy reintroduced capitalist property relations in 1991. Kozlovesred 17:29, 4 May 2006 (UTC)
This is true, not all forms of economy where the government is in control of distribution is communism. The expressed goal of Soviet leaders was communism, but it was never reached, and many of the leaders were probably insincere. I would support changing this article to describe the soviet economy as something other than communist, which as you can look up is the final stage of Marxism where among other things the government fades away. Obviously not the case for the S.U.
I agree with Mellesime, as a communist I also deny USSR being communist. Not only because a country claims to be something it actually is that. Mexico claims to be a democracy when pollitically only 23% of population governs for example. USSR employed both a market economy as well as money thus implying the establishment of capitalism, the difference with other economies: it was State runned and ATTEMPTED to apply socialist rules contradicting the nature of its economy, leading to its fall and soiling communism's name. USSR was a Capitalism of State nota Communist nor Socialist state. 201.129.240.39 17:32, 29 July 2006 (UTC) ZealotKommunizma
Society without money,how long would the USSR have lasted if it had no money? Capitalism was only allowed on a small scale.
1936 Constitution of the U.S.S.R. Article 9. Alongside the socialist system of economy, which is the predominant form of economy in the U.S.S.R., the law permits the small private economy of individual peasants and handicraftsman based on their personal labour and precluding the exploitation of the labour of others. Dudtz 9/7/06 5:31 PM EST
Since this appears to be a somewhat controversial matter, there should probably at least be a mention of the fact that some charge the USSR of not actually being a communist state. Jeff Silvers 13:32, 8 September 2006 (UTC)
The truth of the matter is that the USSR was a communist state, however imperfect. If you're a communist and you have an idealised view of what communism should resemble, it's very difficult for you to say that "the USSR was not communist". Most communists still stand true to the Marxist-Leninist principles of the USSR and most would have to admit that socialism is necessarily a top-down system. Put simply, the USSR was a communist state - just not the communist state you'd want to live in.
I just want you to read this article explaining why the West gets such a twisted view on the USSR, even after it's collapse: http://www.soviet-empire.com/ussr/viewtopic.php?t=28616
-G
Come on, what tyrannical state enslaves its people? Gulag camps people, Gulag.Tourskin 00:18, 22 February 2007 (UTC)
Prisoners in the US are sentenced to hard labor? Hmm. How many of these laborers get less than what they need to eat and die of work? None. When I mean by crushing rebels, the term rebel refers to protestor because in all communist countries today yes all of them, if you protest like in Tiananmen square, tanks will soon roll over you.
I understand that you are presenting yoru points clearly and apologise if I seem to be personal about this but come on people. Tourskin 02:37, 2 June 2007 (UTC)
PEOPLE ARE ARRESTED FOR BEING ARABS?! ARE YOU GODDAMN CRAZY?!Tourskin 02:37, 2 June 2007 (UTC)
---
Stressed military output when nation could not even feed itself (bread queues, imported grain, Virgin land scheme failed)
I've removed Old New Year and Orthodox Christmas from the list. I see their inclusion to be POV. They were not official holidays or non-working days. Besides, they were not specifically Soviet features. Even various Soviet "Days" are not on the list, although some of them were much more widely celebrated, than these two.
If non-official holiday Orthodox Christmas is on the list, then why other Orthodox, Catholic, Protestant or non-official Buddhist, Muslim or Judaist holidays are not mentioned? Cmapm 18:42, 30 May 2006 (UTC)
I agree, those were two very odd subjects that the anonymous user added, especially the text accompanying them. Vox Populi (TSO) 18:57, 30 May 2006 (UTC)
Any idea why this article's title is "Soviet Union" and not "Union of Soviet Socialist Republics"? (Might it be related to the idiotic tendency to use acronyms, i.e. NASA, as article titles?) Paul 19:21, 3 June 2006 (UTC)
Although wiki wants the most common name to be used the nation was known globally and officially as the Union of Soviet Socialist Republics. Wouldn't the name used primarily by official records count as "most commonly used" since its prefered that information come from official sources? —Preceding unsigned comment added by Arbiter099 (talk • contribs) 00:53, 8 June 2008 (UTC)
Anybody have a clue why "HEMED MOHAMED IS A LAZY SON OF A BIZNITCH" is under History, and why it's impossible to remove through the edit page?
Why is this not even mentioned anywhere? This would seem to be the start of tensions between these powers. Practically the very first thing the USSR experiences is a foreign invasion by its future best friends, the United States and United Kingdom. Yet this aggressive act of war, which would cast a pall over the rest of the 20th century, is not even mentioned?? I think that this should be given at least a paragraph, as it is likely one of the defining moments of the last century.
It was no doubt a complicated course of events, but if you can make it into one paragraph decently, then by all means go for it! Kozlovesred 04:57, 7 June 2006 (UTC)
I agree, the intervention should be mentioned somewhere, since it is one of the main reasons the USSR became what it was. Also, it would be good to add information regarding Kosygin's reforms, oil prices in 80's and the situation with Brezhnev, maybe some chart with oil prices by the year. This would show perfectly one of the factors why the USSR collapsed.
I agree, the western intervention in the civil war should be mentioned. But my compliments to the author, this is a very good article. Zhukov 22:05, 22 June 2006 (UTC)
-G
soviet sources say the date is July 23, 1923 so is it? sveral countries did recognize the USSR on that date, Finland, Germany, Turkey, Afghanistan, Mongolia, Poland, Iran.
Hi all,
This article has been removed from the good article list because its references are insufficient for its length. Please consider using inline citations to make clear the source of content. I have added this article to the appropriate project for improvement. If you disagree with this delisting you can seek a review or if you feel the article has changed significantly to address these concerns you can renominate it.
Cedars 01:14, 13 August 2006 (UTC)
"22,402,200 km² (1st before collapse)" in the table, concerning the area. "1st before collapse" seems strange to me, because an inexistent state can hardly have a ranking. Moreover, its nominal successor state, Russia, is still 1st after its collapse. How about "22,402,200 km² (1st), before collapse"? Aran|heru|nar 15:43, 29 August 2006 (UTC)
"On September 4, 2006 Vladimir Putin issued a statement revealing that the Soviet Union had been reunited. All of the 15 countries referred to as the 'former Soviet Union' were once again annexed by Russia, and the Soviet Union was reborn. Wtf?"
XD
-G
It appears some group of people have started a fad claiming the Soviet Union reformed Sep. 4, 2006 and have been posting this false statement on the History section. I have seen discussion of this on a certain, unnamed message board. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Vampyur (talk • contribs) .
Under History: "The Soviet Union was established in December 2037 as the union of the Russian (colloquially known as Bolshevist Russia), Ukrainian, Belarusian, and Transcaucasian Soviet republics ruled by Bolshevik parties." Obviously this is incorrect, but I don't know what the actual date for this event was, or even what they're talking about.
well, perhaps he was just telling the future: something wikipedia is not allowed to tell. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 69.14.240.200 (talk) 07:26, 16 December 2007 (UTC)
As if samizdat was the main feature of the Soviet culture. The section should be a short summary of the Soviet culture, not a dissident-POV-article on censorship and a collection of links "for futher reading". Even that section of more ideologically strict DPRK is much better. Also compare it with "Culture" section in Vietnam article. Cmapm 00:35, 9 October 2006 (UTC)
The main feature of the Soviet culture was censorship, persecution of writers, centralization (Party control).Xx236 15:05, 27 February 2007 (UTC)
I can tell you why they put a picture of an atomic bomb. Whilst the soviet union was obssesed with nukes, the United States was helping Europe after the war. The Soviets simply replaced the Nazis.
Well, picture of nuke exploding would be definitely POV, because SU never used nukes in action - they stockpiled them just for protection. Whatever SU was bad or not (for example, U.S. saw it as certain threat just because of "nuts" like Stalin) is not a point here. Claiming that only SU was obsessed with nukes is typical US Reagan time propaganda (Yes, US had it's own lies about enemy as SU had, I say both were equally bad in this game), because it was US who pressed creating bigger and bigger bombs to destroy enemy. See movies like "The Trinity and Beyond" and "Power of Nightmares" for more objective POV about Cold War and Mutual Destruction - and what kind of persons drove them. Pecisk 15:31, 10 May 2007 (UTC)
Oh its okay to kill priests and people who don't agree with you right? Why don't you read your history and find out that Stalin also persecuted Jews (hence he was unable to reach his dotor who was a jew at the time of his death). It is well known that Stalin killed just as many if not more than Hitler . World War 2 isn't usually counted because thats got so many different causes as well as hitler. Tourskin 02:41, 2 June 2007 (UTC)
The text from the holidays section was copied-and-pasted into Public holidays in the Soviet Union. I don't care where it will eventually end up, but it shouldn't be in two spots. ~ trialsanderrors 08:29, 28 December 2006 (UTC)
The article is pretty damage by vandalism. Lock and repair the arictle? Tiwonk 18:28, 30 November 2006 (UTC)
May be it will be better to separate autonomus territories by republics? Also, there are a lack of Autonomous Okrugs, which are easily mixing with Oblasts.
EnglishEfternamn, you seem intent on excising this sourced section from the article. We don't need to provide direct links to written material, however they are sometimes given as a convenience. It seems to me as though you are gaming the cite system. However in this case all the material is available online. Criticism of Soviet contamination of the air, water, and land. The quote given by the government minister. Judging from the bibliography this book is well cited and certainly reliable and verifiable.--RWR8189 21:56, 23 January 2007 (UTC)
This is what I have so far, I'm open to any suggestions before putting it in the article.--RWR8189 00:52, 24 January 2007 (UTC)
The infobox should take the form of a former country infobox, as (obviously) the Soviet Union no longer exists. However, there is a great deal of information in the template which needs to be reformatted so that the Infobox will recognize it as such and post it. I am a bit inept at doing these things, so someone with more experience in fixing poorly-written infoboxes should try to repair it. Lockesdonkey 03:31, 11 February 2007 (UTC)
Yes, especially in censorship, forced labour, propaganda.Xx236 15:02, 27 February 2007 (UTC)
-G —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 134.117.157.7 (talk) 04:53, 1 March 2007 (UTC). Not to mention being betrayed by Hitler, poor to begin with, and with many millitary officers being corrupt, (as well as many government officers).
Yes, I understand the tragedy of good-natured comrade Stalin, who was betrayed by Adolf Hitler. Confidence is typical during wars, Adolf Hitler for the first time in history attacked without former warning. Poor comrade Stalin...
And the invasion during the civil war, something unbelievable. Millions of imperialists came to stop the revolution. Happily they failed and the Soviet government was able to construct working camps for millions. The big success of the SU was the the biggest Holodomor in Europe during peace time.
I understand the imperialists who opposed the Soviet Union, their nature is imperialistic and evil. But the internal enemies were the worst ones. Such Lithuanian grandmas who conspired to pray in imperialistic roman-catholic churches -no, such crimes are unpardonable. Xx236 13:47, 29 March 2007 (UTC)
Not to fuel further tensions, I would like to explain why native people of the Baltic states and Poland sometimes hold such POV - it is simply of Russia and Russians' lack of will to accept that SU was found on very harsh and violent basis, it was very murderous, and it was very hostile to it's neighborhoods and closest nations. Also problem is that most of people and their relatives suffered from actions of SU see Russia recent actions as Historical revisionism to get claim that:
Russians, we have nothing against you as a nation - lot of people listen to Russian music, read Russian literature, poetry, watch excellent Russian movies (which, thanks God, doesn't hold lot of pro-bias for Soviet regime). Problem is that they fear of the past repeating itself. You are quite violent and accept it as natural, however people of Eastern Europe yearns more towards liberalism and equality, something Russia feels now is "unnatural" and "anti-Russian" (See Putin triads about Russians version of democracy). You see your "victory" against Hitler as main selling point why we should love you. Well, maybe it will be news for you, but most people remember both regimes with nightmares. Both. Not only Nazis. And also stop call everyone who oppose you in slightlest detail Nazi. It is silly and just make you look very childish.
Problem is that you see no other way to "rule" people minds as with fear (how about kindness, how about forgiving and asking forgiveness, how about economical prosperity together?). Most nations have big problems with that. You just blankly refuse to accept that your nation have been a little bit savage in a past - and still fighting it with that today. There is nothing glorious about that. But I hope you should understand that no one will attack you, no one will refuse to talk with you, if you just won't be arrogant. We are not your enemies. But we fear you, because you hurt us very seriously in the past. Pecisk
I added a redirect notice so that people who are looking to find out what a Soviet is and so they type "http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Soviet" into their URL bar have somewhere to go. The phrasing might be improved; please change it if you have a better way to word it.--Atemperman 18:32, 11 March 2007 (UTC)
It's a pity, that users, who try to replace images and to introduce significant changes into the infobox don't use the talk page first. At least I object to making this article somewhat "outstanding". There is a bunch of articles on states with similar political systems i.e. with a single-party Communist rule, including former ones: SFRY, PRC, Vietnam, Cuba, North Korea. I suggest to look through them first to have a hint on which images should be present in them and what the infobox should look like. Cmapm 18:52, 14 March 2007 (UTC)
Gorbachev isn't showing up on the main page under government leaders, although when I go to edit article everything seems to be correct. Not sure what the problem is. --Meesheek 22:27, 14 March 2007 (UTC)
The following has been removed by Lowi, I think this was part of the LOC text, but don't want to revert until I have a source. I know that NKAO (now NKR) believes their declaration of independence to be inline with Soviet law.
"In the late 1980s, the constituent republics of the Soviet Union started asserting sovereignty over their territories or even declaring independence, citing Article 72 of the USSR Constitution, which stated that any constituent republic wasfree to secede."
- Francis Tyers · 14:46, 15 March 2007 (UTC)
The one used in the Italian language article is much clearer and better-looking, so I switched it to that. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by ErikB (talk • contribs) 18:05, 31 March 2007 (UTC).
Cite requests are of course unnecessary when they are demanded of something that is patently uncontroversial. Does anyone really contest the statement that people deliberately referred to the Soviet Union as "Russia?" A little common sense is called for, sometimes. --SECurtisTX | talk 17:48, 23 April 2007 (UTC)
This appears in the article:
"...in agriculture collective farms were established all over the country. It met widespread resistance from wealthy peasants who withheld grain, resulting in a bitter struggle against the authorities and famine, causing millions of deaths."
If you simply follow the link associated with the rich peasants words, you will arrive at the page on Kulaks, which gives a more accurate description. This line however, is unfairly biased against the "rich peasants". In reality the peasants are not to blame, as I feel this quote suggests.
As is stated in the Kulak article:
"Sovnarkom issued a decree that formalised the notion of "kulak household" (кулацкое хозяйство). Any of the following characteristics defined a kulak:
* regular usage of hired labour; * ownership of a mill, a creamery (маслобойня, butter-making rig), or other complex equipment, or a complex machine with mechanical motor; * systematic letting of agricultural equipment or facilities for rent; * involving in commerce, money-lending, commercial brokerage, or 'other types of non-labour occupation'."
Any one of these made you elgible for persecution if Savnarkom saw fit.
Again to quote the Kulak article:
"Often local officials were assigned minimum quotas of kulaks to identify, and were forced to use their discretionary powers to find kulaks wherever they could. This led to many cases where a farmer who only employed his sons, or any family with a metal roof on their house, being labelled kulaks and deported.
The same fate met those labelled "kulak helpers" (подкулачник), those who sided with kulaks in their opposition to collectivisation."
It was not peasants withholding grain, no matter how punative the quotas that caused death and famine. Nor even was it the refusal to pass on livestock to collectives (a sentiment far from unique to the 'kulak' class). It was the persecution of a largely fictional class, the Kulaks, created by Stalin as a propaganda puppet that caused most of the conflict, as well as the violent shutting down of all of the most efficient farms, that caused the famine and death.
Drew.Cason 06:53, 25 April 2007 (UTC)
this article has too little mentioned SU-s crimes against humanity for example silent genocide against native nations etc. Also the Molotov-Ribbentrop pact that was the fundament of WW2 has not been mentioned. The whole text gives a image, that SU was just another superpower and that is it.
At last... something I can agree to. I agree that Stalin may have been an necessary evil. We don't know for sure if he was a necessary evil, because we don't know if an alternative government could have won but probably not. Nationalisation of industry is a different, but related, topic from collectivisation, though still part of the general centralization of the means of production in the "hands of the proletariat" (sure, whatever u say Stalin). Geneva convention was followed better by Allies than by Soviets, thats a fact. Rights to freedom of speech, freedom from fear and freedom to pray existed better in the Allied states than in the Soviet states. True, the Soviet people cannot be blamed for having Nazi Germany so close, so perhaps having the freedom from fear of the Cheka and NKVD had to be sacrificed in order to preserve the people, and arguably the world from Nazidom. But during peace time, do you really still gotta kill priests and people who talk too much? The US wasn't much better with McCarthyism I agree. The idea of Human rights is a very old one my friend; look at John Locke and his rights to Life, Liberty and Property. My conclusion is that perhaps the Soviets had to sacrifice the right to liberty and property for life in World War 2, but they sacrificed more people's rights to these then the Allies did. I am not saying that the Allies were perfect either; just that they were better. Perhaps the Nazi war had such a devastating effect that totalitarianism continued even after ww2? I beg to disagree but I can't see why else the Allies were better other than that the Soviets bore 90% of the Nazi war machine.Tourskin (talk) 05:26, 13 April 2008 (UTC)
Last I checked, did not every most every official document identify itself as produced by the Union of Soviet Socialist Republics? If so, the page should identify itself likewise; Encyclopedia Americana, circa 1988, called it that. --Chr.K. 11:51, 10 June 2007 (UTC)
ok guys i'm going to go change "North Korea" to "Democratic People's Republic of Korea" and "Libya" to "Great Socialist People's Libyan Arab Jamahiriya" 72.12.163.230 05:55, 6 July 2007 (UTC)
Not just because I see no reasons for inclusions of different versions of Soviet insignia here (COA had much more significant differences throughout its history, BTW), but also because the statement: "Flag of the Soviet Union, from 1923 to 1980. Hammer and sickle slightly altered in the 1980 to 1991 flag." is wrong at least in respect of the flag version pictured. Here is the image from the Great Soviet Encyclopedia, which was published in the 1970s, note the difference. Hence I'm removing it from the article. Cmapm 00:20, 11 June 2007 (UTC)
I don't know how to add a reference for the population figure in the infobox, if anyone does please add: <ref>Andreev, E.M., ''et al.'', ''Naselenie Sovetskogo Soiuza, 1922-1991''. Moscow, Nauka, 1993. ISBN 5-02-013479-1</ref>. Thanks!--68.239.70.72 02:18, 3 July 2007 (UTC)
It's not that incorrect. Russia controlled the USSR, the capital was Moscow, and pretty much the main language of the USSR was Russian. That sentence should be changed in some way to reflect this.1.21 jigwatts 01:57, 10 July 2007 (UTC)
Is a link really needed to say that the USSR was commonly called the Soviet Union? It's pretty obvious.1.21 jigwatts 23:55, 18 July 2007 (UTC)
The result of the proposal was no consensus to move the page, per the discussion below. Dekimasuよ! 17:25, 27 July 2007 (UTC)
I have put in a request to move this article to "Union of Soviet Socialist Republics". It can be found at Wikipedia:Requested moves. Don't mean to get into the middle of something, but I tend to think it should be titled "Union of Soviet Socialist Republics", not "Soviet Union". Squad51 22:12, 24 July 2007 (UTC)
I don't see why its the soviet union since that was its common name along with the USSr.
i always call it the USSR or its offical name.
Union of Soviet Socialist Republics should be tyhe article name with a soviet union redirect page to this, jsut to make this offical and not just public names.--68.106.210.205 01:06, 28 July 2007 (UTC)
That's actually what a Soviet is. Zazaban 23:48, 17 August 2007 (UTC) I get the point that people refer to things related to the Soivet Union as "soviet," But as do people use American to refer to things related to the Unted States Zazaban 19:24, 28 August 2007 (UTC)
I have changed the First General Secretary to Iosif Stalin from Vladimir Lenin, as Lenin was never actually General Secretary of the Communist Party. The post of the GenSec was created relatively late in the party's history and the first person to ever hold it was Stalin, not Lenin. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Korakious (talk • contribs) 18:34, 8 November 2007 (UTC)
A .gif file would be nice showing the progress of the growth of the Soviet Union as it aquired more members up to the aquisition of Afghanistan.--Keerllston 19:48, 23 November 2007 (UTC)
No -- the Soviet Union never formally annexed Afghanistan any more than it "annexed" Czechoslovakia or Romania. In Afghanistan, Soviet black ops arranged for a coup that put a toady in charge in Afghanistan and sponsored internal coups when he and his successors proved either incompetent or inadequately obedient. Formal annexation describes what happened in Estonia, Latvia, and Lithuania, where stooge governments enacted legislation (however suspect in legitimacy) that "requested" incorporation into the Soviet Union in 1940. No such event occurred in Mongolia or in any of the postwar satellites of the Soviet Union. Such was apparently contrary to Soviet interests after World War II. Just imagine what would have happened had the Cuban legislature under Fidel Castro "requested" that Cuba become a Constituent Republic of the USSR (Monroe Doctrine) or had Mongolia or North Korea done such during the Sino-Soviet hostility. It never happened in Afghanistan, either, which the Soviet Union wished to claim was an independent and sovereign "People's state".
All Soviet puppet states were generally recognized even in countries hostile to the Soviet Union as independent, if tainted -- which is very different from the situation with any "constituent republic". The "growth" stage of the Soviet Union as a political entity (if not as a power) is best described as a few years between the establishment of de facto Soviet power and formal ratification by treaties by countries "ceding" territory, rigged referenda "demonstrating local support" often intervening. That took at most three years for completion. A map showing the boundaries of the Soviet Union in 1948 was good for that purpose (one little border adjustment with Poland being the exception) was useful as late as 1990.
Spread of Soviet political influence? That, in contrast, would take a world map to encompass such countries as Vietnam, Cuba, and Ethiopia as well as central and Balkan Europe.--Paul from Michigan 10:12, 2 December 2007 (UTC)
It may be picky on my part, but Lenin's régime took over from the Provisional Government of Alexander Kerensky -- and not from the then-defunct Russian Empire. By November 1917 (Western style), practically every country not at war with Russia recognized the overthrow of the Empire and the establishment of the Russian Republic, and in turn the Kerensky government until the "October" or Bolshevik Revolution. By then the former imperial family was effectively under arrest, even if incarcerated in a "gilded cage" in which the Bolsheviks would eventually murder them. The execution of the Romanov family was not essential to the Bolshevik seizure of power.
I have adjusted the text to reflect those facts.--Paul from Michigan 10:23, 2 December 2007 (UTC)
As the Soviet Union no longer exists this article can and should represent a general overview of the period with the benefit of hind sight. See articles on any of the former manifestations of Germany.
At the moment it does not. It focuses on details with one word links to separate pages concerning such as deportations and concentration camps. It mentions successes such as rapid industrialisation and then quietly much further down the page mentions famines, agricultural problems and rising mortality. Nominal freedoms are mentioned but well away from the sections that describe how the rulers closest comrades were killed. For most of us freedom to do something is not worth much with the real risk we will be killed or sent to live in terrible conditions with a high probability of death. It reads like a newspaper rather than a brief history of the Soviet Union. There has been a huge amount of information made available since the fall of the Soviet Union sorely it should be used.
As regarding the past of countries such as the UK and US which have been involved in ignoble acts. Britain; Slavery, Concentration camps (Boar War). US; Great number of CIA activities. These obviously don't belong in the counties main articles but should be mentioned perhaps by creating pages for history periods, for instance Prussia and other German states pages deals with the periods of the time for these regions, there are fantastic boxes showing predecessor and successor states. Similarly this could be done at Milestones in countries Histories, France could have one for each Republic and US/UK for periods eg After Cold War/End WW2 to End Cold War/WW2/End WW1 to WW2/WW1/US independence to WW1/Agricultral revolution to US independence/Frankish expansion-Feudalism to Agricultural revolution and so on. This way historical actions of countries could be dealt with reasonably and consistently. Charleskenyon (talk) 12:13, 5 December 2007 (UTC)
Because Islamic religious tenets and social values of Muslims are closely interrelated, religion appeared to have a greater influence on Muslims than on either Christians or other believers.
The reason why Islam had a "greater influence... than either Christians or other believers" is not because the Christians of Russia are not zealous - its because the Muslims lived in the rural and far away regions of Russia - regions were Soviet centralized rule was nominal or not considered worth the effort destroying religion in these strategically unimportant areas. Tourskin (talk) 06:59, 7 December 2007 (UTC)
Why are Baltic states not included in the list? Alæxis¿question? 09:23, 9 December 2007 (UTC)
The Baltic States are missing from the "succeeded by" list of countries.
Xav71176 (talk) 21:22, 20 February 2008 (UTC)
It has nothing to do with "legitimate" successorship.
Estonia and Lithuania, as well as all the other former republics, are now listed as successors, but not Latvia. However the "succesor states" concept is generally used on wikipedia, this page should at least be internally consistent. Either Latvia is added, or they all go! I can't make the change myself because the page is protected. Oninnaz (talk) 03:15, 3 April 2008 (UTC)
This is preposterous... the term "Soviet" is to "Russian" as "British" is to "English" so the two are informally interchangeable. This makes it so because before The Russian Empire was carved up, there were never recognied states as, say Kazakhstan or Ukraine before that. Anything "Soviet" can also be referred to as though Russia did it. All the other Former Soviet Republics exist today merely because of the fact that Lenin carved them out of the Russian Empire. Had Lenin not done so, Russia would still be in one piece as it should have. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 141.210.9.36 (talk) 20:14, 18 January 2008 (UTC) Amandajm (talk) 09:35, 15 February 2008 (UTC)made a slight change to make format work here
Including two insurections.Xx236 (talk) 13:52, 15 April 2008 (UTC)
all soviets were given the democratic choice - lies.Xx236 (talk) 09:24, 13 May 2008 (UTC)
Image:Lenin na tribune.jpg is being used on this article. I notice the image page specifies that the image is being used under fair use but there is no explanation or rationale as to why its use in this Wikipedia article constitutes fair use. In addition to the boilerplate fair use template, you must also write out on the image description page a specific explanation or rationale for why using this image in each article is consistent with fair use.
Please go to the image description page and edit it to include a fair use rationale. Using one of the templates at Wikipedia:Fair use rationale guideline is an easy way to ensure that your image is in compliance with Wikipedia policy, but remember that you must complete the template. Do not simply insert a blank template on an image page.
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BetacommandBot (talk) 22:19, 13 February 2008 (UTC)
Anyone here that speaks Russian, please translate the text on this stamp:
I'm curious to know what it says. Thanks. - ✰ALLSTAR✰ echo 03:24, 14 March 2008 (UTC)
The block of text from the main article to which this discussion refers is reproduced below.
Following the ousting of Khrushchev, another period of rule by collective leadership ensued, lasting until Leonid Brezhnev established himself in the early 1970s as the preeminent figure in Soviet political life. Brezhnev presided over a period of Détente with the West while at the same time building up Soviet military strength; the arms buildup contributed to the demise of Détente in the late 1970s. Another contributing factor was the Soviet invasion of Afghanistan in December 1979.
Pardon me for asking, but what exactly did the Soviet invasion of Afghanistan contribute to with regards to the USSR? There is nothing in the article that suggests an answer as it stands. Moreover, this entire sentence seems out of place without a necessary lead-in. If you have any way to fix this problem, please do so or post it in this talk section. Pikalax 13:24, 30 March 2008 (UTC)
This decision of 26 December 1991 was made by not the Supreme Soviet of the USSR, but by one chamber of this Soviet, namely, Council of Republics of the Supreme Soviet. Another chamber in fact already did not exist at that time. --D.M. from Ukraine (talk) 19:44, 4 May 2008 (UTC)
I'm assuming that the demonym would be "Soviet", but it always seemed kind of like a necessarily political designation. As in an American would call someone from Russia "Soviet" and a Russian would call someone from America "Western" or "Capitalist" or something- not "American". Whatever the case may be, I think that the demonym for citizens of the USSR should be included. Chaparral2J (talk) 08:39, 7 May 2008 (UTC)
Not Russia but Soviet Union. There existed a popular song My address is Soviet Union.Xx236 (talk) 09:19, 13 May 2008 (UTC)
Soviet nation, formally since 1971, first time used in 1938 in Если завтра война song . Xx236 (talk) 09:59, 26 May 2008 (UTC)
Should the CPSU portal be placed in the Politics section? 144.32.126.12 (talk) —Preceding comment was added at 20:44, 2 June 2008 (UTC)
Sorry, pressed enter a little too early. The summary was supposed to read: Huh, didn't notice this before. As the United States article is not included into the cat "Empires", I see little reason for adding USSR to such a cat, despite what "critics say" about both countries. See Soviet empire, American empire. --Illythr (talk) 20:09, 4 June 2008 (UTC)
You have to ask to become a state but you have little chance to not become a republic and being slaughtered afterwards. Quite a big difference, isn't it? Xx236 (talk) 12:01, 11 June 2008 (UTC)
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