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This is an archive of past discussions about Shroud of Turin. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
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OK..also this video conference is mentioned in two places, both the controversy and the News part on the bottom. It needs to be removed in one place. Where do you guys think is best for it? The Controversy? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 75.72.148.192 (talk) 22:53, 22 October 2009 (UTC)
The way the article ends has to be fixed. It states that after his death there is a video conference of Rogers where he decided that the shroud was authentic. But reading what Rogers said all along, he didn't change his mind, he always thought it was authentic. He just repeated his lack of vanillin theory one more time. The way it is written now, it makes it sound as if one of the scientists who thought it was a fake decided it was now real. But Rogers NEVER thought it was a fake. In fact he is the only one I see quoted as arguing for it being real constantly. It needs to be cleared up. The phrase "he declared it to be fake and now thinks its real" is not compatible with him always saying it was real. One or the other is true. Either add the part where he called it a fake, or remove the part where he changed his mind. To make things make more sense, I moved that part up by the other information on Ray Rogers and that project. that way it fits better with the time line. I didn't copy the words "where he previously called it a fake" because it looks to me like he was always calling it real. So I just didn't add that one way or the other. I just wrote that he thought it was real in that documentary that was made near the end of his life. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 75.72.148.192 (talk) 22:25, 22 October 2009 (UTC) Maybe adding where the three samples came from would help people decide. After all, its not like they came from a corner, they came from three very different areas. I found a diagram. One of the samples is pretty much in the center, ehile the others are in the corners. I think its confusing when people keep referring to it as being one area. Its not. Also, it would be nice to figure out which of the radially different areas Rogers was testing.
This article has too many points of view and everytime I go to put a tag as such it gets removed. We need to put some sort of a lock on this. If you claim something you must back it up with fact, not conjectur or weasel words like "Some claim" this article is full of that and it's impossible for me to change any of it as my revisions keep getting changed almost instantaneously. I have therefore requested partial protection as well.
The article is also way too long, it takes over 2 minutes almost 3 minutes to download in dial up and needs to be shortened
Please do not remove tags till you clear this up 4.142.123.117 (talk) 13:51, 16 May 2008 (UTC)eric
I know this was debunked by carbon dating a few years ago. can someone please include the carbon dating findings. NOTE: There may be more, Please check the archives and GFDL histories carefully, as much tampering with active discussions has been taking place. ፈቃደ (ውይይት) 17:23, 21 December 2006 (UTC)
What's the position of the Vatican on the shroud? The speech I linked to seems to suggest that he believes it's a matter for the science to determine the origin, and if the science concludes it's from the middle ages it's fine by them. However, confirmation by somebody fluent in Catholicese would be helpful.--Robert Merkel
The official possition is that the origin is unknown. However, as with any other relic of dubious origin, personal devotion is not officially prevented or encouraged. The Pope (the present one) is clearly devout to it, but you have to take into account that the present Pope is Eastern, and so he is very devout of Icons, and the shroud can be seen as one (and one especially gifted). Pfortuny 09:59, 16 Apr 2004 (UTC)
Pfortuny's comments (above) are perfect examples of "adding apples and oranges". British possessiveness of the mummies in their museums is in no way analogous to the Catholic Church's habit of preventing critical investigation of the Turin shroud. The age and origin of the mummies in British museums is not in question. They've already been examined. If a question should arise regarding the authenticity of one or more of these mummies, and the British government refuses to allow an investigation, or allows only an already-biased group (equivalent to STURP) to do the investigating, then will be the time to criticize the British government for not allowing scientists to examine the mummies closely enough.
This Pfortuny has got to go. What is meant by "The present Pope [I take it this post dates from the reign of John Paul II] is Eastern, and so he is very devout of Icons"? Just because a Catholic is from an eastern European country doesn't make him "devout of icons". Polish Catholics, unless they belong to a Uniate jurisdiction, don't employ icons in their worship any more than French or Italian or Irish Catholics do. Nor do other non-Uniate Catholics. The ones who are "devout of icons" are the Orthodox, not Catholics ("eastern" or otherwise). True, most Orthodox churches are in eastern Europe or the Middle East, hence they're often called "Eastern Orthodox", but it's an incredible folly to confuse them with Polish Catholics. tom.amity129.93.17.63 03:56, 30 November 2006 (UTC)
Just to have a comparison for the "unparalleled artistic quality" claims, here's a random Fayum mummy portrait from ancient Roman Egypt, grayscale and blurred, positive and negative:
File:Shroud-compare1.jpg File:Shroud-compare2.jpg
-- [DELETED IMAGE OF SHROUD CLOSEUP WAS HERE] --
Which one has the greater artistic quality? Which one provides more detail? The answer to that question is inherently POV. These mummy portraits were a commodity, by the way, they were not in any way unusual. In fact, the best artists of the time probably produced even more photorealistic images, but none survived the Dark Ages. They didn't just rot away -- many of the greatest works of art were deliberately destroyed, as Christianization brought with it iconoclasm, a curious trait of religious fundamentalism that would be revived by the Taliban many centuries later. --Eloquence* 02:42, Apr 21, 2004 (UTC)
Questions (mainly to JDG, bc I am at a loss)
Maybe those questions are related and related to the discussion, but I dunno. Answers are appreciated from anyone :) Pfortuny 07:03, 21 Apr 2004 (UTC)
Fayam portrait
Here's my POV as an Art Historian who is familiar with Fayam mummy portraits. To say that this is a "random" Fayam mummy portrait is a subtle excercise in wool-pulling! This is no "random" portrait. It is one of the finest and most expertly-handled, most three-dimensional and beautiful of all the known Fayam portraits.
These portraits were painted by artists who undoubtedly specialised in creating these life-like images. Unlike Leonardo, their output probably ran into hundreds or thousands of portraits in a productive lifetime. Some of them were very very (POV, POV!) skilful at achieving a lifelike and 3D face. And they brought to life the dead body at which they were looking, fleshed it out and gave it "soul" as expertly as the most expert modern forensic sculptor.
But, (and this of course is a value judgement, made for the benefit of those who are not familiar with this particular artform) this Fayam portrait goes well beyond the average in depiction of that which is lifelike. The writer has, I suspect, selected the finest example he could locate in order to make the point, whatever the particular point is.....
ON THE VINLAND MAP -
On this topic, Pfortuny is as usual immoderate. The Vinland map was "declared authentic" by a conference whose sole purpose seems to have been the discrediting of McCrone with the aim of upping the authenticity of the shroud of Turin. Nobody took this conference seriously, except the advocates of the Turin shroud for whom it's just about their favorite conference in the world. The interesting thing about this conference is that its organizers DIDN'T INVITE McCRONE, which is extremely odd since he's the one who did the work on the Vinland map to begin with! Whom do they think they're kidding? Tom.amity129.93.17.63 04:12, 30 November 2006 (UTC)
--Amandajm 06:34, 22 July 2006 (UTC)
Note to this author: The name Nazoreth did not exist during the time of Jesus. It is a second century name. Jesus was refered to in the new testament scriptures as 'Jesus the Nararite'. A Nazarite is a person who belongs to a subsect of Essene Jewdaism. For instance, upon the cross the Romans nailed the sign 'Jesus the Nazarite, King of the Jews'. It is a mistake of translation between Greek to other languages that 'Jesus the Nazarite' became 'Jesus the Nazarene'. Later this was mistranslation was interpreted as 'Jesus of Nazareth', but only after the 2nd century, as prior to the second century no Narareth existed in Palastine, or Jordan (where Jesus was babtized by the Nazarite John the Babtist).
You're wrong in asserting that there was no such place name as Nazareth until the second century, because you don't know that. You're assuming there was no such place because it's not mentioned in any records (other than the Gospels), but that doesn't prove there wasn't such a place. The silence of the records might mean Nazareth was an obscure, small and insignificant place and that there was no occasion to mention it. The New Testament phrase which is traditionally translated as Jesus of Nazareth, and which you render as Jesus the Nazarite, is actually Iesous Nazarenos. Now, what does Nazarenos ("Nazarene" in English) mean? "Of Nazareth" or "the Nazarite"? Take your pick. Either is possible. But even though the town called Nazareth isn't mentioned in any other records, it is mentioned in the Gospels, and in the Gospel of Luke it's identified as Jesus' hometown.
Your definition of Nazarite in terms of Essene Judaism is incorrect. Essenes may have employed the term, but it goes all the way back to Torah.
You confuse the issue with your careless misspellings (Nazoreth, Nararite, Palastine, Jewdaism). Tom129.93.17.202 18:35, 22 August 2007 (UTC)
When he was placed in his tomb and that his image was somehow recorded on its fibers as a photographic negative at or near the time of his proclaimed resurrection") should not be in the intro paragraph and in fact is misleading anywhere in the article. First, there are many image modes that people believe in that have nothing "photographic" or photography-like about them (see the sections on impressions from sculptures or bodies and image formation by bas-relief, amongst others). Second, most of the more advanced "Shroudies" and almost all scientists coming from imaging backgrounds believe the idea of the photographic negative is understandable in this case, but usually misleading. Thy believe the image is probably a negative of something, but certainly not a photographic negative and not even directly analogous to a negative photo. One must bear in mind that it is the modern photographic negative that revealed tremendous detail on the Shroud, but this is quite distinct from concluding or arguing that the Shroud actually is a photographic negative. See this paper by Peter Schumacher for a good explanation: . Thanks JDG 04:32, 21 November 2006 (UTC)... BTW, I was an original author on this article way back-- not that I'm asserting ownership or anything, but just so you know I'm not swooping down out of left field. JDG
"Photography is the process of making pictures by means of the action of light. Light patterns reflected or emitted from objects are recorded onto a sensitive medium or storage chip through a timed exposure. The process is done through mechanical, chemical or digital devices known as cameras."
References in the article are a complete mess: some with {{note}}, some with inline links, and some with <ref>. Any objections against converting them all to <ref>? --Tgr 12:02, 25 November 2006 (UTC)
In the opening paragraphs this claim ―:
can be read. It’s confusing. If I remember correctly Ian Wilson (Christianity), a major pro-authenticity advocate of TS, has written in his books and newsletter that the textile evidence is ambiguous. ―Cesar Tort 03:25, 16 December 2006 (UTC)
I’ve re-read Wilson’s textile passages and yes: I remembered correctly. In The Mysterious Shroud. Wilson wrote:
“Overall, Raes’s evidence is ambivalent. It shows the Shroud could have been produced in first-century Palestine, but equally plausibly it could have been produced in fourteenth-century Europe or a fourteenth-century Muslim country, from which commercially expanding countries like France and Italy were importing heavily. Troyes, only twelve miles from Geoffrey de Charny’s Lirey, was one of Europe’s most important centers for precisely this form of trade.” (pp. 42f).
Therefore, I removed the erroneous claim in article. ―Cesar Tort 06:31, 24 December 2006 (UTC)
JDJ wrote the above in edit summary and I endorse his comment. --Cesar Tort 06:34, 21 December 2006 (UTC)
Codex Sinaiticus has already trespassed the 3-revert rule, as can be seen here.
Since revert #4 was the placement of the POV tag, it should be removed. ―Cesar Tort 20:44, 23 December 2006 (UTC)
We are not censoring the fact that sindonologists believe the image is a photographic negative, only that the way it was phrased brought up Christian apologetics (Jesus’ “resurrection”) in the intro paragraph (this is not a religious encyclopedia). Furthermore, the shroud is not a photographic negative. It’s a quasi-negative. The image differs from a negative in two respects:
1) There are blank spaces surrounding the various imprinted forms (for example, nose, cheeks, etc) within the outlines of the figure.
2) The beard is opposite in tone to what we should expect (dark on the original “negative” imprint) giving the effect when a positive is made that Jesus was a white-bearded old man.
―Cesar Tort 03:33, 24 December 2006 (UTC)
I think I just noticed part of the problem... I hadn't actually noticed this before, but on 11 Dec., user:Brandmeister changed the wording subtly, so that instead of stating that there are those who "believe" the Shroud is photographic in nature (true), it rather stated simply that the Shroud "is" photographic in nature -- which I agree is too much for neutrality. I hadn't paid attention to that minor change when I was reverting, but it seems that is what you were looking at and removing. What I actually wanted it to say is the wording just before Brandmeister changed it on Dec. 11, that some believers "consider" it photographic. Would you accept that as a compromise? ፈቃደ (ውይይት) 15:37, 26 December 2006 (UTC)
of ironies!
Although the pov tag was placed for another dispute, now I’d like it stays there until this paragraph ―:
Raymond Rogers' January 20, 2005 paper in the peer-reviewed scientific journal Thermochimica Acta provides apparently conclusive chemical evidence that the sample cut from the Shroud in 1988 was not valid
―is reconsidered. While it is true that Raymond Rogers tried to rebut Joe Nickell on this topic, it’s far from certain that the 1988 radiocarbon dating was not valid.
As stated above, it was Rogers himself who, back in 1977 (before he actually studied the shroud directly in 1978!) coined the phrase “flash photolysis” as a “scientific” term for the hypothesis of Jesus’ resurrection imprinted on the shroud. My point can be appreciated if we consider a couple of letters that Marvin Mueller, a nuclear physicist who published a critical article on the shroud in a 1982 Skeptical Inquirer, sent me. His letter was later published in no other than Joseph Marino’s newsletter: the man who first tried to refute the 1988 radiocarbon dating by claiming that the sample cut from the shroud in 1988 was not valid.
In a couple of his 1990 letters to me, Mueller wrote:
Except for perhaps two or three weeks each by McCrone, Nickell, and Fischer, there has been almost no hands-on bench work put-in by those on the skeptical side. In contrast, the total effort by STURP was probably over a hundred times larger. Shroud skeptics are not easy to motivate at the nitty-gritty, nose-to-grindstone level. Yet science, to perform properly, demands that a serious effort be made to invalidate claims and hypotheses. The image problem is not easy to address experimentally and a thorough test of Jackson’s [STURP’s main pro-authenticity advocate] conclusions could easy take months of work by a small team – preferably by a totally independent one.
But, as I mentioned in my previous letter, the chief problem lies with motivating enough scientists and artisans to undertake such a program of arduous research with a Jacksonian intensity, and the prospects of this happening seem bleak to me. There is a notable motivational asymmetry between the two sides of the Shroud controversy.
I quoted all of this because it’s clear to me that, if skeptic researchers were out there publishing like Rogers in respected peer-reviewed journals, a hole might well be found in Rogers’ argument. In other words, the motivational asymmetry between the two sides makes the research biased! And that means that Rogers, the proponent of the flash-photolysis/ resurrection hypothesis he invented before putting any hand on the shroud, is not necessarily right about what he writes in his 2005 Thermochimica Acta paper.
The tragedy is that confirming (or casting serious doubts on) the 1988 dating may be easy if the Vatican permitted a new C-14 testing. In other words, part of the mystery has to do with the church’s reluctance to allow the badly-required new battery of tests.
This situation can only favor the advocates. —Cesar Tort 09:00, 27 December 2006 (UTC)
Postscript
The above, which also appears in the opening paragraphs, further illustrates my point.
“Repeated peer-reviewed analyses” are basically STURP’s analyses. With the exception of McCrone and another agnostic, STURP was composed of almost 40 Christians and a Jew. And the STURP elite, Jackson, Jumper, Rogers, Heller and Schwalbe were latter-day champions of Christian apologetics. It cannot be a coincidence that the champions reached diametrically-opposed conclusions to the agnostic! Have McCrone’s claims, that he found traces of pigment on the shroud, being refuted by the STURP champions of Christian apologetics? I’m unqualified to answer the question. I am not a specialist. Obviously the McCrone vs. the STURP data ought to be evaluated by an independent team. Now then, a random “40 scientists” search into, say, the American Association for the Advancement of Science members would hardly give a result of 40 Christians, let alone passionate defenders of their dogma!
Can it be seen now the full force of Mueller’s point?
If the scientists who investigate the shroud are not a fair mixture of Christians, Jews, agnostics, atheists and secular humanists the research itself will always be skewed to show the hidden agenda of the researchers. —Cesar Tort 20:02, 27 December 2006 (UTC)
The present article contains this phrase:
Below you can see the replica that the late Enrique Rivero-Borrel, president of the Mexican Society of Sindonology, did years ago.
I myself took several photos of this shroud, front and back, in a MITRA library (Vatican Embassy in Mexico).
A man with pigments applied onto his body was covered by a cloth of the size of an altar cloth (like the TS). Since the sides of the man were not wrapped the result, as can be seen, is an undistorted image.
If we take into consideration what I posted above, that McCrone’s observations have been challenged but not refuted, there’s the possibility that the TS image may have been fabricated in a similar way. (We must remember that there were other imaged shrouds in France, where the TS appeared for the first time in the 1350s. The shrouds were destroyed by fanatic Jacobins in the French Revolution.) Rogers himself said that McCrone was “the best in the world” in his specialized field of microanalysis. McCrone concluded that none of the TS control (off-image) tapes showed pigment or particles, while eighteen tapes from body and “blood”-image areas showed significant amounts of pigment.
This raises big questions. Is there something similar to the Rivero-Borrel shroud in the literature of TS studies? If McCrone is right about the presence of pigments and STURP wrong, the judgment day for the TS may be at hand…
If there is nothing published similar to the Rivero-Borrel shroud, I may ask the editor of Free Inquiry to publish an article on the subject authored by me. Years ago the editor became interested when I sent him printed photos of the Rivero-Borrel images.
But I’d like to know first whether or not there’s something similar in the vast field of TS studies. ―Cesar Tort 04:52, 28 December 2006 (UTC)
In the "General Observations" section, there is a broken link to "Analysis of artistic style." Can somebody fix this to make it point to whatever it's supposed to point to? —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Capedia (talk • contribs) 17:46, 29 December 2006 (UTC).
If the Shroud is fake then the DNA test results would have come up negative. Has anyone(scientists and such) done DNA tests of the Shroud of Turin to make sure that real blood is present, and if it is doesn't that make it true that it is real? If real blood is not present then obviously it would be fake. If blood is present it could not be fake, (assuming the dating tests are true and they do date back to Christs time)since artists of the time period would not be so disgusting as to paint with real blood. Also to anyone who says that it is not human blood, that also would be disgustin to make a fake with animal blood, and besides what would be the point to make a fake Shroud of Christ? To have people from all over the world touch this piece of history for what purpose?
(if anyone must know i am not taking side just presenting a different view of things. email me with any questions: urie_alex@yahoo.com)
I think I heard something about the Radio carbon dating being innacurate because it went through a fire and all the carbon in the soot messed it up. I don't know if it's mentioned in the article or not, because I just skimmed over it and I don't really have the time to read the whole thing. I think someone should look it up and put it in the article.
I'm not sure that the article makes clear enough the fact that, despite the opponent's views on the matter, the issue as regards the image being fabricated has been more or less discredited, it's certainly not any kind of painting, McCrone was way off beam. Obviously, the article has to condense things, making rather agonising choices about what to leave out, but if you read all the literature out there on the subject as I have - both for and against - you can gain an in-depth view (as long as you're open-minded on both for and against!). Ian Wilson's marvellous work on documenting the history and also the possible early history is a great starting point. The carbon-dating is more or less discredited too, so if we put to one side exactly whose shroud it was (!) the big question still is - how was it created? That's what skeptical scientists should be applying themselves to, instead of just saying (like Gove) 'somebody got a bit of cloth and faked it up'.....hardly a scientific or satisfactory answer. It's amazing that in this day and age, with all our fantastic technology, we can't answer that question."Matthew.hartington 23:22, 2 January 2007 (UTC)"
There seems to be undue weight in the article towards Ray Rogers’ 2005 “refutation” of the 1988 Carbon-14 testing on the TS. I feel compelled to quote Nickell’s reply to Rogers in Skeptical Inquirer:
C-14 tests are reputed in general now. For example tests on living flowers result in them being dated to hundreds of years old. Some shells are dated to 100 of years into the future etc. Wheat from Egyptians jars has dating thousands of years apart for individual grains all found in the same jar! Basically the C-14 level in thing isn't constant at any time and can't be used for anything any more. All these tests actually prove is how much C-14 is in the fabric. Getting a date from that is a guesstimate at the very best. If the cloth is older than medieval it seems it would be the only piece of cloth in existence that is! —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Dacium (talk • contribs) 01:41, 12 January 2007 (UTC).
Note to the above author. It is possible that the grains found in the Egyptian jar were simply stored in an old jar to begin with no???
The C14 testing method is not questioned in general. However, it is generally aggreed that testing fabrics/fibres is difficult. Fibres must be properly prepared to remove contaminating particles. The original disrepute aligations were directed at the experimenters and the Vatican, not the C14 testing protocol. These allegations were not origionally made by Ray Rogers’ 2005 “refutation, but by earlier publication.
In the case of the 1988 radiocarbon dating experiments upon the shroud, nobody has questioned the accuracy of the measurements that were taken of the various samples tested. Rather, it is accusations (first published by respected theologian/pedagogicistin Holger Kersten, and Scientist/philosophist Elmar Gruber in the book "The Jesus Conspiracy" in 1992) that the Turin Shroud samples were switched with Samples of 'The Cope de Saint Louis'(a medieval cloth woven in the same Herringbone pattern as the Turin Shroud) directed against the Vatican Cardinal Ballestrero, and against Dr Tite (the person responsible for the overseeing of the cutting of the cloth and the sealing of the fragments into glass vials). The accusations were not only directed against these individuals, but several key figures involved in the experiements such as Professor Hall of Oxford University, Gabrial Vial of Lyon, Professor Luigi Gonella (Cardinal Ballestrero's scientific spokesman), Professor Wolfi of the Zurich laboratory, Professor Carlos Chagas, and Professor Giovanni Riggi (based in Turin). They accuse the Vatican (or elements within the Vatican along with the above mentioned scientists who were involved in the administration and conducting of the experiments) of colluding to prevent the true age of the Turin Shroud being measured. Suffice to say that this book needs to be read by any interested Shroud scholor, but for those who can't be fussed reading the book, the authors maintain a website that sumerizes their main findings.
That makes no sense at all. Why would anyone try to hide the true age of the shroud? Even if its a billion yrs old, its not likely to be Jesus. Why would anybody go to that much trouble for something that would have no effect on anyone? Nothing really changes no matter who that is in there. I still believe that Christ is a Messiah, and I still don't think thats him. If someone proved it was him...Oh well. Who would risk their reputation or possible punishment for that???? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 75.72.148.192 (talk) 23:49, 22 October 2009 (UTC)
Where it previously read " At the same time, the second image makes the electrostatic hypothesis very probable because a double superficiality is typical of corona discharge and the photographic hypothesis somewhat less probable" I changed it to "At the same time, the second image seems to support the electrostatic hypothesis because a double superficiality is typical of corona discharge and the photographic hypothesis somewhat less probable." I found the very probable" not in keeping with the NPOV, as this one piece of information falls far short of making any one claim "very" probable. --Fitzhugh 05:42, 25 February 2007 (UTC)
In 1389 the image was denounced as a fraud by Bishop Pierre D'Arcis in a letter to the Avignon pope...
According to the Avignon Papacy article, the Avignon popes reigned from 1309 to 1377, so something is obviously wrong here. Looking at the German source, it appears the pope in question was actually Antipope Clement VII. I'll amend the article accordingly. There are two references to Avignon popes in the article; I'll remove the first one (since it's not terribly relevant anyway). CJGB (Chris) 17:05, 4 March 2007 (UTC)
As is well known, the actual person died by stoning and consistent with biblical law, after he was confirmed dead, he was briefly suspended and then immediately taken down. There was no crucifix. Any wounds would have to be consistent with stoning and so the shround may be of doubtful authenticity. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 72.79.51.17 (talk) 01:26, 12 April 2007 (UTC).
I changed this:
The shroud of Turin is a fake created by someone with only cursory knowledge of human facial anatomy. It should be noted that enlarging the lower part of the face and diminishing the forehead is a common error of inexperienced artists, as well as a distinguishing feature of Medieval and early Renaissance art.
To this:
The shroud of Turin is a fake created by someone with only cursory knowledge of human facial anatomy. It should be noted that enlarging the lower part of the face and diminishing the forehead is a common error of inexperienced artists.
I did so because this assumption of medieval and early Renaissance art is the opposite of the truth: in fact the foreheads were often exaggerated to match the ideal of the time. Noble women frequently plucked their hairline to make the forehead seem higher. Perhaps this is best illustrated with an example. The Hours of Englebert of Nassau have even better examples, but I didn't see any images of that manuscript. I'm just making sure not to offend any one :).--Vlmastra 01:32, 13 May 2007 (UTC) But the artist that painted that is obviously NOT inexperienced, but in fact very good. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 75.72.148.192 (talk) 23:53, 22 October 2009 (UTC)
I've been going through the article a bit trying to tighten it up to meet wikipedia standards. One thing that I just took out was most of the text under the subheading "Analysis of proportion". This has been in the article for quite a long time it seems, but from this diff, the editor who originally added it (here) did so from original research and from the partial memory of a textbook that he or she couldn't identify or cite. Pending more solid sourcing, it seemed this should come out of the article. I've read accounts by forensic pathologists and not seen the proportionality of the face mentioned as an issue, though I have seen about the height and length of fingers being unusual. Beyazid 20:55, 9 November 2007 (UTC)
On the "Characteristics" section of the article it says that researchers could not replicate the effect when they attempted to transfer similar images using techniques of block print, engravings, a hot statue, and bas-relief.
However, later in the section on bas-relief, it says that Costanzo constructed a bas-relief of a Jesus-like face and draped wet linen over the bas-relief. After the linen dried, he dabbed it with ferric oxide and gelatin mixture. The result was an image similar to that of the Shroud. Similar results have been obtained by author Joe Nickell. Instead of painting, the bas-relief could also be heated and used to burn an image into the cloth.
I guess bas-relief should be removed from the first quoted sentence. Bobisbob (talk) 20:06, 22 November 2007 (UTC)
I guess, and it does specify that the the Jet Propulsion Laboratory scientists in particular couldn't reproduce the effects. Bobisbob (talk) 00:16, 13 December 2007 (UTC)
Is this a featured article? at least the german interwikilink to this article marks it in this way. 128.230.111.195 (talk) 23:37, 11 December 2007 (UTC)
Arguments for and against authenticity from both Christians and non-Christians should be included. One Christian argument against authenticity is that the figure has long hair when 1 Corinthians 11:14-15 says that it is shameful for men to have long hair and therefore the figure in the shroud is not Jesus --Ted-m (talk) 02:42, 31 March 2008 (UTC)
VRTS ticket # 2008022410006805 refers. The last paragraph read to me as a novel synthesis from primary sources, and actually the source cited does not appear to be peer-reviewed or formally published, so I have removed it. Please be extra vigilant when mentioning living individuals to ensure that any material which might be construed as critical or controversial is properly supported by reliable independent secondary sources. Thanks, Guy (Help!) 10:16, 5 April 2008 (UTC)
At least the article holds up to the typical Wikipedia standard of "skeptics" getting the last point in....virtually every subtopic.
A free encyclopedia written by anonymous unprofessionals....what more could I expect? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.23.245.72 (talk) 23:52, 17 May 2008 (UTC)
Why is that?? Maybe because extraordinary claims warrents extraordinary evidence!--85.230.237.204 (talk) 18:25, 27 January 2009 (UTC)
In the lead there is the sentence "It is believed by many to be a cloth worn by Jesus Christ at the time of his burial, two days prior to his alleged resurrection." Various editors have removed the word "alleged", others have re-instated it. My reason for deleting "alleged" is as follows:
The sentence describes a belief held by "many" people which connects the shroud to "Jesus Christ" and his "resurrection". Both Jesus and his resurrection are mentioned in this sentence as adjuncts to the belief held by the "many". Therefore it is not necessary to "allege" the resurrection in this context. This is confirmed and made clear by the (uncontested) use of the term "Jesus Christ" (the Messiah, the appointed of God) as opposed to "Jesus" (the man, subject of the Gospels) which places the "many" in the set of believers in the Christian faith and Jesus (and by extension his resurrection) within their belief system. As it stands, the "alleged" implies that the resurrection is not universally accepted within the set of people who acknowledge Jesus to be the Christ (i.e. within Christianity); as far as I know, this is not the case, and certainly not the intended meaning of the sentence. -- Timberframe (talk) 15:49, 24 May 2008 (UTC)
See last sentences, paragraph four, of Parapsychology and Dean Radin my user page. Kazuba (talk) 14:47, 14 August 2008 (UTC)
I have never seen an image on another piece of cloth so for that reason alone I am skeptical, however, the in ability to replicate a similar image on cloth using any type of two dimensional printing has failed to reproduce the 3 dimensional effect found by NASA. Consequently I am wondering whether the image may have in fact been produced by decomposition gases coming from the body in a sealed tomb where there is no air movement? Again since no other cloth seems to exist with this effect I am also wondering whether the cloth may have been treated with some type of wash prior to its use that would have been effected by the out gassing and then washed a second time after use with a different wash which fixed the image made by the out gassing to the cloth - all by accident of course? -- Taxa (talk) 23:07, 6 September 2008 (UTC)
This article has 70 references, yet there is a notice on top that it lacks references. I think that notice is old. There seem to be references on every point of view, pro/against etc. Unless someone has good reasons not to, I will remove that no-refrences flag in a day or so. Thanks History2007 (talk) 01:14, 14 September 2008 (UTC)
Ok, done deal. Thanks History2007 (talk) 19:20, 14 September 2008 (UTC)
I didn't count the references, nor do I think that the # of references truly matters. There ARE multiple instances of non-citated (supposedly NPOV) statements, such as this paragraph from the "sudariumof oviedo" section:
Forensic analysis of the bloodstains on the shroud and the Sudarium suggest that both cloths could have covered the same head at nearly the same time. Based on the bloodstain patterns, the Sudarium would have been placed on the man's head while he was in a vertical position, presumably while still hanging on the cross. This cloth was then presumably removed before the shroud was applied.
Without a citation, I have no idea what credence (if any) to lend to this analysis. Without a citation, I tend to believe it is a POV statement made by someone with an ax to grind.
68.8.202.217 (talk) 18:06, 7 October 2009 (UTC)
Shroud of Turin: Neutrality on forgery? That is not the figure of a man. It is obviously Midieval artwork, a painting. Just stand back and look at the thing. The American Schools of Oriental Research (ASOR) Biblical Archaeologist magazine editorial board refused to publish the shroud was a forgery. This was too controversial. I was somewhat personally involved and supported by David Noel Freedman. See: False Impressions: The Hunt For Big-Time Art Fakes by Thomas Hoving, Touchstone, 1997. Would you buy a Dale (automobile) from Liz Carmichael? Kazuba (talk) 08:03, 2 October 2008 (UTC)
YOU can find the data. If YOU are willing seek it out. Its around. Kazuba (talk) 21:14, 2 October 2008 (UTC)
Who is this Jesus Christ guy? There seems to be a lot on wikepedia about him.````Marc —Preceding unsigned comment added by 143.216.49.250 (talk) 08:42, 27 November 2008 (UTC) Not just in wiki, either. I can recommend several other books, which collectively go under the name of the Bible. -- Timberframe (talk) 21:39, 27 November 2008 (UTC)
The paintings http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:JesusinShroud.jpg and http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:OntstaanLijkwade_GiovanniBattista.png appear to be the same (referenced in the article at Textual criticism and In the Catholic Church), but are claimed to be from two different artists. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 63.249.90.91 (talk) 06:12, 12 December 2008 (UTC)
There are 7 subsections to this section, whose information content is difficult to assimilate and compare. As a reader, I would like to be able to say this or that technique might plausibly explain the image, or alternatively that the suggested technique is purely speculative. What I mean by this distinction is the following analogy, drawn from debates in the domain of artificial intelligence: If I climb a tree, and then claim that I now have evidence that I can reach the moon, then I am being speculative. If I shoot up a rocket that travels several meters off the ground, then I have offered plausible evidence that it might be possible to get to the moon.
In reference then to the various subsections:
The "Maillard reaction hypothesis" does not inform about whether there are any precedents for obtaining anything like such a detailed body image from a corpse. The referenced article simply says "may explain". I have not been able to access the reference, and am left wondering whether this "may explain" is purely speculative.
The "auto-oxidation" section also simply refers to historical claims, but gives no hard indication of whether there are precedents of auto-oxidation producing a corpse image. Again, it seems to belong in the realm of speculative.
The reference to the work of Allen in the "Photography" section is very helpful. If I read his text, then the technique appears to me as plausible, although historical evidence for the existence of photographic-like technology seems absent. (Rather, Allen argues the other way around: that since the shroud is definitely a fraud, and photography appears to be the only available explanation, therefore the photographic technology must have been available in medieval times.)
The "Painting" subsection seems to me fairly complete, and pretty much leaves the reader with the choice of accepting McCrone's work, in which case painting is highly plausible; or rejecting his work, in which case painting appears to be highly unlikely.
I find the "Solar Masking" and "Using bas-relief" subsections tantalizingly incomplete. Given that these theories are relatively recent, one would have expected visual evindence to illustrate the quality of reproduction that has been attained. The former is characterised as "crude and preliminary" but there is no indication of how crude.
Of the latter it is claimed that: "The result was an image similar to that of the Shroud". Where, then, is a picture of the results so that the reader may compare? Does "similar" mean we have a decisive breakthrough here? Or is it vaguely similar and open to dispute. The reference to PHYSORG.com is not really helpful. It has a journalistic wring about it, claiming definitive proof of the Shroud's fraudulent nature, yet not providing visual support for what has been attained. The net effect is to elevate the "bas relief" option has the most plausible to date, as if it is one that has no counter-arguments or opponents.
In neither of these two cases, am I able to form an impression of whether the researchers have shot up a rocket, or climbed a tree (to return to my earlier analogy).
A Miracle (the last subsection) would fully explain the image (although, of course, skeptics would a priori discount the occurrence of miracle as plausible in the first place.) 41.241.144.73 (talk) 12:47, 26 December 2008 (UTC)Carlos, 26 December 2008.
This is purely hypothetical but has anybody made an association between Thomas, who was known as "doubting Thomas" for not believing that Jesus had risen from the dead, the city of Edessa which he seems to have been closely associated with, and the known location of the shroud centuries ago? Is this pure coincidence or is there something bigger going on here? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.19.135.200 (talk) 22:12, 4 February 2009 (UTC)
Hello,
In case it is of interest to anyone, I wrote a small and simple software to view interactively the face on the shroud in 3D on your computer.
You can get it from here (use your Windows File Explorer and type in the address-bar the address below):
address: ftp.rxsolutions.fr login: theshroud password: zerobc
Copy all the files and paste them onto a local folder of your computer. Then check the ReadMe.txt file out for instructions. This software is freely usable and re-distributable, without any restrictions.
Regards,
LC —Preceding unsigned comment added by Infocharmoisy (talk • contribs) 13:43, 18 February 2009 (UTC)
The caption on File:Shroudofturin.jpg states that it's the negative photo, but compared to the other photos in the article, it would appear to be the positive... is that right? Unfortunately, despite being a featured picture, we don't really have a source for it. howcheng {chat} 23:27, 27 February 2009 (UTC)
I cannot make any sense of this section called 'Intermediate date between Christ and the Middle Ages' - what is it trying to say? --John Price (talk) 10:59, 9 April 2009 (UTC)
have a read and see what you think ..and let me know... (Off2riorob (talk) 13:56, 10 April 2009 (UTC))
Dr Rogers's video will be broadcast tomorrow .. The Turin Shroud: New Evidence at 8pm on the Discovery Channel.(Off2riorob (talk) 22:53, 10 April 2009 (UTC))
Barbara Frale has found a trial document from 1287 describing a ceremony that involved something like the Shroud. It would seem to be within the scope of this article. 69.64.235.42 (talk) 21:49, 11 April 2009 (UTC)
I removed: "Furthermore there is a lot of controversy about carbon dating (Robert E. Lee, Radiocarbon: Ages in Error. Anthropological Journal of Canada, vol. 19 (3), 1981, pp. 9-29) and in the case of the resurrection, Christian belief has it that the body of Christ was refulgent of light which could have rendered the carbon dating exercise meaningless". The reference to the controversy in carbon dating seems unnecessary in the lead, and refers to a very out-of-date article. The sentence about "refulgent of light" is mysterious to me, and seems to be entirely original research. Fences and windows (talk) 17:07, 12 April 2009 (UTC)
> Digital image processing <
This section is currently totally false and full of intentionally misleading garbage! It is well known that Jesus was buried with two ancient roman coins placed on his eyes.
- One shows the spiraling head of a liitus walking stick, a sign of power for roman imperial sage priests. Around it the coin's inscription reads "Tiberiou Kaikaros", Tiberius Caesar, who was roman emperor.
[The liitus priest stick signified the emperor was regarded as living god of the roman empire, therefore his money cannot be refused for trade under threat of capital punishment for blashphemy. This was important for the unity of a geographically huge empire.]
- The other coin depicts three leaves of wheat oars, more or less similar to the hungarian 20 filler coin obverse imagery as shown [here http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:HUFf_20_1987_obverse.JPG]. This kind of ancient coin is also known, it was minted in rememberance of the emperor's mother, whom imperial romans also considered a god of their panthenon.
- All this imagery and text is clear and easy to read from the Shroud's photo negative, there is nothing "Rorshach" about it. The 1980 National Geographic Magazine Shroud special edition had large size enlargements of these coin photos and attributed their meaning without any uncertainity.
- Whoever inserted the current coin nonsense into the article definitely did it out of malice! Wikipedia editors should take care to corrent atheist fifth column vandalizations! 82.131.210.163 (talk) 18:11, 4 June 2009 (UTC)
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