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This is an archive of past discussions about Seven (1995 film). Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 1 | Archive 2 | Archive 3 |
The section titles for "Texts" through "NPOV" were added by me to clean up the page a bit. They might not be what those people would have chosen for themselves. -Parallel or Together? 12:18, 29 October 2005 (UTC)
NOTE: the film technique is called Bleach Bypassing and "increased its overall tonal quality" as a description doesn't actually mean anything.
Calling the world a dystopia is a bit over the top. It's obviously New York or at least inspired by it and a theme of the movie is how screwed up current world is. Dystopia makes it sound like some 1984/Brave New World future, not today. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.183.228.183 (talk) 06:11, 1 September 2008 (UTC)
Doesn't it seem weird to give the identity of the killer so blatantly, before the spoiler warning? It almost looks planted. -qartis
I removed the "wild goose chase" comment as it was inaccurate. A "wild goose chase" is the pursuit of something impossible (or nearly impossible) to attain. In this film, they were running after a suspect and almost caught him, hardly an impossible task. --Feitclub 20:21, Nov 7, 2004 (UTC)
Although the description of the movie's plot is very good and detailed, I feel that there are too many positive comments for the movie. I liked Seven very much myself but I think that as an encyclopedia, Wikipedia should keep a NPOV in all of its articles. Bill the Greek 12:11, 28 Mar 2005 (UTC)
imo the Seven page should link to the movie directly, and have a link to 7 (number) on top; I doubt many people will look for the number by writing it out, scrolling down the number page for the movie is inconvenient; if one wants to know what the word seven means one could use wiktionary ... of course that might break consistency with articles like six or eight - sorry if that topic was already discussed. (clem 18:59, 15 Apr 2005 (UTC))
Seven (movie) - Se7en (movie). "Se7en" is the title's spelling used by IMDb, so should be accepted as standard. Zafiroblue05 02:05, 1 Jun 2005 (UCT)
It was requested that this article be renamed but there was no consensus for it to be moved. I'd recommend changing Se7en into a redirect to this article. violet/riga (t) 19:55, 8 Jun 2005 (UTC)
Move to Se7en (not Se7en (movie), because there are no other "Se7en"s). The movie's actual, official title should be used, regardless of whether or not it fits normal spelling or grammar. -Sean Curtin 23:10, Jun 1, 2005 (UTC)
Use common name. Jonathunder 04:02, 2005 Jun 3 (UTC)
At the *bottom* of the page... Zafiroblue05 06:27, Jun 5, 2005 (UTC)
Another thing: look at the website: http://www.newline.com/sites/seven/index.html The movie is always referred to as "Se7en" (except in the actual URL). Zafiroblue05 16:51, Jun 3, 2005 (UTC)
As a librarian, I can tell you that any respectable library catalog will have the movie under Se7en (hopefully with a cross reference from Seven) as that is the name from the title card. They teach us in library school to catalog according to the "item itself" and not the container. In a similar vein, the first movie released with the Indiana Jones character will be titled Raiders of the Lost Ark regardless of what the VHS or DVD boxes say. -Acjelen 00:57, 5 Jun 2005 (UTC)
FWIW, the BBFC has the film listed under the title Se7en, meaning that was the title under which it was submitted to them by the distributors. --ascorbic 22:03, 1 August 2005 (UTC)
I don't care what people who've obviously never watched this movie say, it belongs under Se7en. Seven is acceptable in a chatroom or an informal forum discussion, but Se7en is the universally accepted offical name. I know some people has to fight about things no matter what and can't stand to be wrong, but live with it. To those that say they prefer Seven: sorry but sites like Wikipedia are about fact, not opinion, so your preferences have no bearing here. To those that claim Seven is the official name: Declared official by who? You? Please provide sources and basis for your declarations of fact. I would think that the name as shown in the title card would be more official than anything you would find on a third-party site, even IMDB. Sorry, but that's just the way the world works: It's the people that create the product that chooses the name, not you or some know-it-all site. Thanks for reading my rant.
This should clearly be at Seven (film). According to Wikipedia:Manual of Style (trademarks): "Follow standard English text formatting and capitalization rules even if the trademark owner encourages special treatment" - Fredrik | talk 01:35, 12 August 2005 (UTC)
I disagree that the title should be "Seven (film)" as this isn't an issue of formatting or capitalization, but the spelling. Also, most of the time a film title is not a trademark (except in cases like Harry Potter, etc.) I vote for "Se7en". --Fallout boy 06:44, 28 October 2005 (UTC)
It has to be Se7en. That is the name of the film. It is not now, nor has it ever been Seven. IMDB has it as Se7en, the Platinum DVD has it as Se7en, libraries have it as Se7en, the BBFC has it as Se7en, New Line Cinema has it as Se7en, the movie itself uses Se7en... and wikipedia has it as Seven. No. I don't understand how we don't have consensus on this yet? Looks like it has been discussed for a while. I urge people to agree on Se7en. So far the opinion splits like this:
Se7en
Seven
Parallel or Together? 12:05, 29 October 2005 (UTC)
What about an article about the hacker named se7en?
What about no? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 64.230.4.166 (talk) 12:05, 18 June 2008 (UTC)
I added the subtitle of theme and tried to incorporate what I believe was the main theme of the movie--RZeidan 14:27, 21 November 2005 (UTC)
The subtitle of cinematography was added inorder to give the audience an appreciation of how Director David Fincher created an envirornment which was conducive for this thrilling movie.--RZeidan 14:27, 21 November 2005 (UTC)
It's about time the POV adulatory critical comments were either backed up or removed. The article has had NPOV sitting on it for far too long. Neocapitalist 03:52, 9 December 2005 (UTC)
John Doe the killer is a fascinating character and may warrant an entry of his own. Hannibal Lector has one after all.70.59.142.151 22:48, 13 March 2006 (UTC)
I think there's something missing in this article...where's vanity?
Didn't the disfigured model who commits suicide represent vanity? The article lists this as "pride". [[UserNope. Don't think so.
Vanity is missing from the article, leaving this entry with six deadly sins and not Se7en.
Now...which murder represents pride?
Edit: okay, I take it back.
Vanity is not one of the seven deadly sins. This is what I get for getting my entire religious education from the Dudley Moore/Peter Cook film "Bedazzled". —Preceding unsigned comment added by [[User:Helenabucket talk • contribs|Helenabucket talk • contribs]] ([[User talk:Helenabucket talk • contribs|talk]] • [[Special:Contributions/Helenabucket talk • contribs|contribs]])
In regards to the changes made by Mwelch: The movie doesn't appear to give any definite indication that Somerset is re-considering his retirement. Is this to be inferred from the dialogue and the Hemingway quote? Willbyr 04:24, 12 April 2006 (UTC)
- He also tells his boss that "he'll be around", hinting that he isnt leaving. He quotes hemmingway's "The world is a great place, and worth fighting for" and says he agrees only with the second part. Thus, he states that he wants to fight for the world, despite it being so horrible. A change in opinion from earlier in the movie. This means he wishes to stay on the force, and keep "fighting". - SMOOTHMEDIA
Doesn't it appear very similar to the suicide of pornstar Savannah, who recieved severe facial damage in a car accident(driving under cocain) and an hour later shot herself? -cthulhoid —Preceding unsigned comment added by 213.210.70.33 (talk • contribs) 05:01, 29 April 2006
There is one other indication in the film as to the location: Near the end, after Somerset has stopped the deliveryman, and opened the box, he yells into his microphone (talking to the SWAT team in the helicopter), "California, don't come in here, John Doe is holding all the cards!" The setting, and this comment would seem to indicate they are somewhere in southern California. --Charles 18:35, 21 May 2006 (UTC)
In the scene with Tracy and Somerset talking at a diner, she says things are very different "upstate" as though that's where she and Mills lived before. This makes me think of New York. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 66.239.85.198 (talk • contribs) on 03:53, January 3, 2007 (UTC); Please sign your posts!
Are either of the listings in the See also section really relevant? Do we really need to go read the article on the number 7? --Charles 06:25, 26 May 2006 (UTC)
The section on Lust mentions that the audience doesn't see the instrument used for this killing. However, I have seen a version where the veiwers are shown the instrument. It takes place during the interrogation scene back at the police station. For about two or three frames (similar to the length of time Gwyneth Paltrow's head is shown at the end), a polaroid flashed onto the screen showing a strap-on dildo-like instrument, with a machete in place of the phallus. The article mentions this, but I'm still not sure if the author has made it clear as to whether the audience has seen this.
I delisted the article from GA nom for the following reasons
Article needs some heavy work see Halloween (film) for a good example of an movie FA. Thanks Jaranda wat's sup 06:44, 20 July 2006 (UTC)
The added section about John Doe is an interesting read, but is heavily POV and sounds like original research. If it's taken from somewhere, it needs citations and sources. Willbyr (talk | contribs) 02:28, 18 August 2006 (UTC)
It seems that there should be some discussion (probably under the section about the "look" of the film) about the innovative opening credits sequence, with the collage of film and still images, since this was very innovative at the time. The man who did them went on to do the opening credits on a number of other films. I would argue it is an important feature of the film. ---Charles 19:10, 7 September 2006 (UTC)
Would any other users care to offer opinions on this repeated edit offered by 72.138.74.56? I'm not sure what the user's reasoning is for preferring it since the user is not offering any edit summaries. Regardless, though, I think there have been enough reverts back and forth that the time has come to try to reach a community consensus as to whether it's an improvement. Mwelch 05:32, 31 October 2006 (UTC)
When they arrive at Doe's prearranged location, dry and desert-like with rows of electrical transmission towers, a delivery van soon arrives. Somerset stops the van several hundred yards from their location and confronts the driver, who says that he was to deliver a box to their location. The box is addressed to Mills, but Somerset decides to open it. He recoils from the box in horror, and yells to Mills, who is struggling to ignore Doe's comments, to put his gun down and to not come near the box. As Somerset runs back to Mills and Doe, Doe reveals to Mills that he had visited Tracy after Mills left for work and tried to "play husband." The independently wealthy Doe envied the fruits of a common man's life and is thus guilty of ENVY. Doe then discloses that he killed Tracy and her unborn baby, and implies that the box contains Tracy's severed head; he also taunts Mills when he realizes that Mills was unaware of her pregnancy. Enraged, horrified, and grief-stricken, Mills dramatically contemplates killing Doe. Somerset tries to stop him, arguing that Doe's revelations only stand if he is killed for his sin of Envy and if Mills is the one who kills him and so becomes the embodiment of WRATH. "If you kill him, he will win," says Somerset. However, the distraught and emotional Mills shoots Doe in the head, empties his gun into Doe's body, and from the viewpoint of their helicopter watching them is shown walking away from Somerset and Doe's corpse in the direction of the box.
In the final scene, Mills is driven away in a police cruiser, while the captain assures Somerset that Mills will be taken care of. Somerset offers that if Mills needs anything, Somerset will want to help. However, given Somerset's impending retirement, the captain is unsure how he would contact Somerset if need be. The captain asks, "Where are you going to be?" Somerset wearily replies, "I'll be around," suggesting that he might not go through with his long-awaited retirement.
The film concludes when, in voice-over, with sirens wailing in the background, Somerset explains why: "Ernest Hemingway once wrote: 'The world is a fine place and worth fighting for.' I agree with the second part."
What do you think? Willbyr (talk | contribs) 13:11, 31 October 2006 (UTC)
Should the cover of the 2-disc Special Edition be used in the article along with the original DVD cover, to show the contrast between the titles? Willbyr (talk | contribs) 18:48, 26 November 2006 (UTC)
All seven of the Deadly Sins was covered by the film, but only six of them were punished by death. The gluttenous man was force fed until he exploded; the greedy man was bled to death from a wound he was made to cut; the slothful man was tortured for a year, but kept alive in agony; the lustful woman had her genitals sliced up with a knife; the proud woman was marred, suiciding out of shame; and the envious man was shot by the very man he admired. As John Doe put it "every sin was turned against the sinner". But what of wrath? Detective Mills had his wife and unborn child murdered. This was his primary motivation for killing Doe, but was it also his punishment? Was the punishment of wrath to have your love ones die, while you remain alive in brooding hatred? Is wrath itself a punishment? Either way, Mills was the only sinner to remain alive. This needs to be adressed in the analysis and discussion of the article. And more importantly John Doe's own article. It is a fundemental aspect in interpreting his "masterpiece", and understanding him as one of literature's most interesting villains. I have 3 theories on the matter: (1) that living in wrath is a greater punishment than death; (2) that Mill's was punished by the death of his loved ones; or (3) Mill's will be so shattered that he will commit suicide. I think the third theory is the most likely. --Dark_Wolf101 11:37, 17 February 2007 (UTC)
There is also an unlikely fourth theory that mills will be given the death sentence.22:01, 1 March 2007 (UTC)
To be fair, the prostitute wasn't the lustful one, the client was. So, really, there's two sinners left alive? 64.126.90.94 10:29, 13 July 2007 (UTC)
As you say yourself, the sinner of Sloth was also alive after they found him. he was admitted to the intensive care unit. They only mention that he was technically alive, if you can call it that, and bright lights would make him go into shock. --Edwardstirling (talk) 21:51, 3 March 2008 (UTC)
Was the prostitute really a sinner, at least in the extreme circumstances that John Doe's other victims were? She was killed by having her genitals sliced up (from the inside) by the blade of a knife, wielded by her client at the orders of Doe. She was killed because she commited the sin of lust. But ironically, it was her client, the man who paid to have sex with her, that was lustful. She was, in effect, only doing her job, and it is doubtful that she harboured any physical attractions to her clients. Yet, she was selected by Doe for brutal murder. This lends credibility to the idea that Doe possessed a level of mysogonism; blaming the woman for luring innocent men into her lair to be corrupted. This aspect of Doe's killings should probably be explored more in Doe's own article, rather the wider "Se7en" article. But it is worth consideration. --Dark_Wolf101 11:52, 17 February 2007 (UTC)
In the Religious imagery section, there are two references to power lines, yet no explanation as to what the religious symbolism of those power lines is? Jscarle 03:00, 5 March 2007 (UTC)
SpartanPhalanx8588, I've reverted your addition, and you have put it back. Your entry is entirely speculative and original research. You have no citation for your material. Your own words (generally accepted, just about anywhere, that policemen, regardless of the particular agency they work for, will look out for and "do the right thing for") are weasel words. If you review these guidelines, and still believe your entry is helpful, please bring it to this talk page. Thanks. The undertow 04:37, 10 March 2007 (UTC)
I've moved sections that contained unsourced text that was also original research and placed it here until it can be sourced.--J.D. (talk) 15:26, 26 March 2008 (UTC)
This article possibly contains original research. (February 2008) |
The movie is rife with religious imagery, specifically crosses which are prominently displayed in many parts of the movie:
John Doe also makes several biblical references himself, notably to Sodom and Gomorrah. There are also several angelic statues prominently displayed.
The recent comic-book adaptations of the film by Zenescope Entertainment give some insight into Doe's childhood and upbringing.
In the third issue, Sloth, it is revealed that, as a child, Doe suffered from excruciating cluster headaches, which were treated with a botched attempt at electroshock therapy.
The fourth issue, Lust, shows that Doe's mother was a religious fanatic, obsessed with sin and eternal damnation. At one point during his school years, Doe began to develop carnal desires for a sexually active girl in his class, which his mother condemned. His mother became infuriated upon finding Doe masturbating in the bathroom and severely beat him. Doe would later witness his mother making love to his equally God-fearing uncle.
The fifth issue, Pride, shows Doe, now a teenager, becoming besotted by a pleasant young girl in his religious-education class. At this stage in his life, Doe has begun the habit of writing journals describing his every thought and action. He writes that his feelings toward this girl are pure and that she is nothing like the girl he lusted over years before. He offers to help the girl with her revision and invites her to his house. Upon entering his room, however, they encounter John's mother, now a violent alcoholic. She is reading John's journals and mockingly reads them out to the girl.
The girl runs away, with John's mother physically attacking him and telling him that no matter what he does, he will always be a sinner and will inevitably go to Hell.
The sixth issue, Envy, reveals that aside from his hair and fingertips, John also went as far as removing his teeth and genitals in order to avoid identification through dental records and seminal samples. The issue also explains that John used to serve in the United States Marine Corps and that he was married and had a son who died as an infant.
The final issue, Wrath shows that John's mother committed suicide by burning herself to death, using John's childhood possessions to feed the flames.
Hello, I'm wondering why John Doe has his own section, with his own infobox on the side, and particularly why the section contains info about him from the socalled "Extended Universe". The main characters in the film (Mills and Somerset) do not have such a section. This looks like it would be better suited in its own article John Doe (Se7en character) Spebudmak 20:38, 24 June 2007 (UTC)
Seven character | |
---|---|
John Doe | |
Birth name | Jonathan Doe |
Gender | Male |
Race | Caucasian |
M.O. | Torture reflecting the victim's major sin |
Occupation(s) | Photographer, self appointed religious enforcer |
Current status: | Deceased |
The viewer is told comparatively little about the character of John Doe. The police captain describes Doe as "independently wealthy, well-educated, and totally insane," but when Somerset tries to tease any personal information out of him, Doe claims that who he is "doesn't matter." Doe has created a completely blank identity for himself; there are no clues to his real identity in his apartment, his bank account was started with cash and he has no employment records; a scene during the opening credits shows him blanking out a picture of a young boy's face with a black marker. Doe routinely and painstakingly uses razor blades to slice off his fingerprints to protect his identity. Doe is only really defined by his crimes and his religious mania, as apparent in his apartment. His apartment, and particularly the 2000 notebooks he has compiled over the years, give the biggest clues to who he is.
Doe's apartment is a shrine to his obsession with sin and revulsion at the world. His door carries multiple bolts and locks, his windows are blacked out, and there are religious icons and drawings everywhere. There is an air of asceticism about it, with his basic bed and the red neon cross above it. Doe seems to be a manic obsessive (he collects aspirin bottles and he details every part of his life in his notebooks). The list of flagged books Somerset and Mills procure includes St. Thomas Aquinas, who wrote on the seven deadly sins in his Summa Theologica. Doe also quotes from Paradise Lost. These domestic observations are contrasted to his writings on sin. Doe is revolted by the self-glorification of a sinful world. He believes that the human race in the divine scheme of things is a pathetic shadow of what we could have been, if we had not Fallen (obviously referring to the original sin of temptation that Adam and Eve gave into).
I removed the Pride section from the religious imagery article since the crucifix form is ridiculously simple and almost certainly unintentionl. Furhtermore, the whole article seems to be pretty out there. Unless there is something to back all of it up, I suggest it be removed. Dancemotron 08:19, 15 July 2007 (UTC)
I know that he didn't want billing in the opening credits or in the promotional stuff, but why isn't he mentioned AT ALL in the actual article? It's a spoiler, yes, but the article does give away the ending of the movie AND Spacey did receive billing at the end credits, so his name should be in there somewhere.--Tao of tyler 09:03, 12 November 2007 (UTC)
In the version I watched, the guy "punished" for gluttony was forced to cut "one pound of flesh, no more, no less" from himself. Or am i remembering something else?71.183.69.18 (talk) 17:47, 4 February 2008 (UTC)
Should the section which discusses Doe's development in the comic book be moved to the section dealing with the comic book? It just seems off having two different parts that deal with it, especially since the section on Doe goes more in-depth on the comic than the actual comic section. Thoughts? Thee darcy (talk) 20:29, 6 February 2008 (UTC)
What are you talking about? The Special Edition DVD (the most recent version of the film), clearly uses the title "Se7en", both on the DVD's front cover and in its menus. This is the official title, as used on the Internet Movie Database. I'm changing it back, unless someone else has a more recent version of the film proving the contrary.
Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.Shouldn't Se7en be redirected to Se7en (disambiguation)? 21:30, 6 March 2008 (UTC)
The title shown in the movie's opening credits is Se7en, not Seven. Shouldn't the listing here be the other way around - that Seven is the promotional title? --138.238.96.100 06:03, 11 Feb 2005 (UTC) It is not called Sesevenven. The title is "Seven". It's just written as Se7en in the esoterically designed title sequence and some of the posters. That doesn't make it an immutable part of the title. You might as well insist on the title of West Side Story being written exclusively in Saul Bass' handwriting. Applemask (talk) 23:08, 31 March 2009 (UTC)
Not sure where it would be appropriate, but there could be a section on "influences"; (i.e. Chris Carter has specifically stated that his t.v. show Milennium was specifically pitched as "Seven in Seattle". —Preceding unsigned comment added by 65.207.2.2 (talk) 20:59, 7 April 2009 (UTC)
I don't remember the name on the back of John Doe's jail clothes near the film's end (in the field), but they may be a clue as to the story's venue. Can someone investigate? Cuddybear130 (talk) 18:38, 21 April 2009 (UTC)cuddybear130
After watching this film several times, I am aware that Victor (Theodore Allan) has no other nickname(s) when he is referred to.
Please correct me if I have overlooked anything, cheers!
Doe kills 7 and Mills kills 1 - what was Mills' wife's sin? Nitpyck (talk) 01:20, 6 February 2010 (UTC)
The sleeping pills reference links to sedatives, these are not the same as sleeping pills, it should link to hypnotics —Preceding unsigned comment added by 137.205.31.80 (talk) 20:37, 25 March 2010 (UTC)
— Preceding unsigned comment added by Erik (talk • contribs) 21:16, 26 October, 2010 (UTC)
— Preceding unsigned comment added by Erik (talk • contribs) 10:39, 5 November, 2010 (UTC)
Although not directly identified by name, it is hinted at being New York. Mrs Mills refers to the town where she and Det.Mills grew up as 'upstate.' How many major cities have that besides New York? Mdw0 (talk) 07:44, 19 April 2011 (UTC)
Hi there,
i don't think that this guy died from shock as it is stated in the storyline of this article. In the movie, his terrible state is described by Dr. Beardsley, but not the same can be said about his prognosis, it's merely implied. I think the "PLOT" part should be changed in this bit.
Attentively, from Portugal - --Vasco Amaral (talk) 01:20, 12 August 2011 (UTC)
"Using illegally obtained library records, Somerset and Mills identify a man named John Doe (Spacey)...", in what way would PUBLIC LIBRARY book utilization be illegally obtained? The records are public record and there is no reasonable expectation of privacy for utilization of public resources which one has an exchange record of. Hence, the illegal part is POV. Unless someone with a legal background can refute that suggestion, library loan records are subject to FOI request, hence, no reasonable expectation of privacy exists. Were it a PRIVATE library, such COULD be construed to exist. To suggest the notion of a public library is private in nature is to suggest that an FOI request is also private or even urinating in a corner of a public building is private. A bar or pub is far, far more private than a public library.Wzrd1 (talk) 07:08, 28 January 2012 (UTC)
The entire alternate endings section was sourced to one reference, a broken link to a horror news site, which I doubt would pass muster as a reliable source. Until good sources are found for that section, it should not be restored. ---RepublicanJacobiteTheFortyFive 02:44, 26 April 2012 (UTC)
This is an archive of past discussions about Seven (1995 film). Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 1 | Archive 2 | Archive 3 |
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