Loading AI tools
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
![]() | This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 1 | Archive 2 | Archive 3 | → | Archive 5 |
This article as it currently stands is signficantly biased towards the Japanese's favor (it's almost entirely written from the perspective of a Japanese official; even as it introduces the Chinese claims, it refutes them in the same breath). Under the Chinese claim section, half of the content is spent refuting the Chinese claim, while all of the Japanese claim section is in support of the Japanese side (such as sarcastic quotation marks around the word "claim" for the Chinese claim). The article is deliberately written in a way that makes the PRC and ROC claims appear weaker than the Japanese. Also, in most international media, the terms Senkaku Islands and Diaoyu Islands are nearly always referred together to preserve neutrality, hence Wikipedia should do the same too by having both names in the title of this article or just use the traditional English name (this IS an English Wikipedia). Naus 21:38, 8 March 2006 (UTC)
This page should be moved over to Daiyutai, or a seperate page for sekaku. Delirum's move to this page is either bias or ignorant to politics, economics, and history. US handed over administrative rights of these island in the San Fransico treaty to Japan specifically noting administrative and no claims to right or ownership. Japan's claim is based sole on that treaty, which is also an illegal treaty under international law signed by US and Japan alone. China and Taiwan claims are based on geography, history, and legal international treaties signed by all parties involved. Specifically in the treay sign in Egypt, Japan's only legal claim are the 5 main islands. This was done intentionally to limit Japan imperialistic ambitions and to assure peace with its asian neighbors. Even disputed territories north between Russia, Korea are all illegal claims by Japan.
Despite the pacifist constitution, Japan has the military with the SDF, and the capabilty to produce 1000 nuclear warheads in a week. The only reasons Japan has not enforce these claims is its citizens and that fact that China only has to nuke 5 islands.
People go to jail for negligent homicide in the US. People go to jail in China for posting the wrong stuff on the web. Nobody goes to jail in Japan for sending troops to Iraq. Thus, ignorance does have its consequences. HD888
I moved this to Senkaku Islands instead of Diaoyutai Islands, because that's the name used by Japan, which currently controls the islands (even though they're disputed). --Delirium 11:20, Oct 26, 2003 (UTC)
IMHO, there's quite a bit of POV there, although much of it is very well veiled. It seems to have been written in favor of Japan and Japanese claims and appears to purposefully reflect badly on PRC and ROC claims.--Node ue 01:03, 7 Mar 2004 (UTC)
Woahwoahwoah... I didn't mean there was POV in Delirium's actions (although there undoubtedly was), I meant that the article itself clearly reflects the opinions of someone who favors Japanese claims to the islands.
Also, it's worth noting that the islands really and truly belong to the nice, peaceful, wonderful Ryukyuan Kingdom, which the evil nasty Satsuma clan invaded and was later evilly annexed by evil prewar Japan. However there was never any war over this land (ie the property of the Ryukyuan Kingdom) until well after Japan laid claim to it, and no residents of the land can recall their parents or grandparents or themselves signing the kingdom over to Japan under any sort of legally binding contract, and obviously to this date the treatment of the former subjects of the King is not with the best interests of the subjects or the land in mind but rather the welfare of those of the mainland Japan which is quite shameful, and for this reason now a small minority has been actively fighting for independence from Japan, and the majority would support such a move if it were an option. A couple of years ago, there was even a governor (Oda Masahide) who nearly gained partial independence for the region but failed because of Japan's recent economic slump; even though he is out of office his plans are still around but on the back burner.
Under this reasoning, if one decides that the former Ryukyuan Kingdom is the property of Japan, then by default the Senkaku Islands (termed by China the "gateway to Loochoo [ryukyu]") belong to Japan. Of course of the population of the entire world most people aren't even aware that there are people who would like to see the secession of the fmr Ryukyuan Kingdom from Japan, and undoubtedly the supporters number not many over 3 million if even that. So by this logic, the islands belong to Japan.
One could follow similar logic to reason that Sakhalin, the Amur River basin, the Kamchatska Penninsula, as well as the Kurile Islands belong to Japan because the Ainu (who the Japanese government claims are 100% extinct which is far from the truth), the former "owners" of these lands are now citizens of Japan. However this isn't really as good an argument because Ainu land was never under a single central Ainu leadership, while Ryukyuan land most definitely was for a number of centuries.--Node ue 18:47, 6 Apr 2004 (UTC)
They are Japanese territories right now as far as international law is concerned. It's gonna be very hard for China or any other nations to contest the claim if they bring it to the International Court of Justice. --211.126.45.201 17:13, 27 Mar 2004 (UTC)
This doesn't seem to me a good way to deal with the matter. The reason that the island is "administered" by Japan is exactly that the islands have not been properly returned together with Taiwan to China after World War II. Whether this claim is valid or not is disputed, but if the claim is still disputed, i.e. the administration by Japan is still disputed, we cannot use the fact of the administration to decide if we should use Senkaku Islands or Diaoyu Islands as the "proper name".
My suggestion that we should make a separate page called "Diaoyu Islands or Senkaku Islands" is the most fair and logical. By placing Diaoyu before Senkaku is only that that is the alphabetical order and that the alleged evidence in support of the claim of China is chronigically earlier than that of Japan. -- 130.88.185.84 01:50, 28 Mar 2004 (UTC)
Diaoyutai Isles, which Japanese refer to as Senkaku Islands, have been Chinese territory since 1403. There are plenty Chinese historical documents prove the Chinese sovereignty rights over the isles. History Professor Kiyoshi Inoue of Kyoto University has rightfully pointed out that documents published by the Japanese government even state so. For example, the maritime chart published for the military in 1785 by an eminent Japanese scholar, Hayashi Shihei (1738 -1793), known as the Sangoku setsujozu (i.e. A Map of Three Adjoining Countries) attached to the Sanggoku tsuran zusetsu (i.e. An Illustrated General Survey of Three Countries) clearly indicated the Chinese ownership of these islands in the maps by unambiguous color-codes.
It is simply outrageous that Japan would shamelessly declare that it "discovered" the "uninhibited Senkaku Islands" in 1885 -- exactly one hundred years after itself published the existence and lawful ownership of these islands.
Japan, a self-proclaimed pacifist nation, not only uses naval forces to take over the islands, but has announced its intention to station as many as 1,000 SDF Marines on the Chinese territory. The Bush administration has just subtly supported Japan's militarist claim through the so-called "U.S.-Japan Security Concerns" last Saturday. The neocons in the White House are desperate to find new partners-in-crime in their own empire-building venture. Japan is certainly more than willing to return to its diehard dream of imperial ambitions. W. finally finds a perfect ally for his "Coalition of the Willing." --217.230.17.157 23:04, 4 Jun 2005 (UTC)
Certainly, but this doesn't means that Japan is really a pacifist. During the 2nd World War Japan has killed 7.5 million Chinese civilists. (versus 0.6 million jews killed by nazis.) Today Japan has the most powerful and modern naval forces and missile systems. A Japanese mayor said even, if Japan want, it can make 1000 atom bombs within a week. (USA and Russia have even to import chips, sensors, turbines etc to produce their submarines, aircraft ... And Japan is make more and more aggressive politics (see the news about japan-korea- and japan-china-relationships) and it is on its way to liberate from the restrictions of 2ww-penalty on him. I don't know the word Chinese imperialism. Please explain me what do you mean. --84.173.17.228 01:52, 7 August 2005 (UTC)
So let's say, do you think a separate page for both is fairer instead of directing one to the other?
If you agree so, then change it accordingly. If not, please kindly advise me why.
Also, consensus is not the proper way to deal with the matter like the present one. I mean we may decide who is to lead us by a majority. But when we are disputing what is the factual "right" and what is factual "wrong", consensus or majority opinion does no help. This is not about moral right and wrong, and not about norms when the majority opinion prevails. This is about the fact, which even if the majority agrees to what is the fact is no proof to the fact itself. The only way to do so is by valid, sensible arguments made out of good faith. (by 130.88.185.84)
And why the Republic of China should be placed before the People's Republic of China then? It is well settled in the international arena that the PRC Government is the ONLY authentic government to represent the Chinese people. The one who insists on doing things according to the international platform seem to ignore this fact when it is about whether the Republic of China or the People's Republic of China prevails. On the other hand, personally, I don't like to do things according to norms (not to say "varying norms"). I only place PRC in front because that's the alphabetical order. (by 130.88.185.84)
Your argument is not quite sound to me, my friend. In Olympic Games we only call the Taiwanese representatives as Chinese Taipei. That is clear evidence that who exercises control doesnt matter. What really matters is who is entitled to a place. And if that is disputed, then we should keep things impartial.
For example, you have a cat called "Lina". You have an ownership right to it. No one can steal that ownership right? And if somebody suddenly steals the cat, and he/she calls it "Mary" instead, do you think the general public will like to refer it as Lina or Mary?
This may be an awkward analogy. But my whole point is control is not a proper objective standard. It is the ownership that is in dispute now. So we can't call the cat Lina or Mary until the ownership is settled. And one thing I have to make clear: I am not concluding that Japan is a thief. The owner and the thief of that cat can either be one of the other, and I do not want to comment on that here in an encyclopedia.
I also don't agree moving to a separate page will continue to cause endless disputes. That should be an effective way to finish off things. I also don't understand why updating will be difficult. Readers will be redirected to the correct page automatically. They shouldn't find it difficult to locate to the correct page for updating.
(by 130.88.185.84)
Also, the reason I talked about the PRC and Republic of China thing is that when you reverted my edits you also reverted my changing the order according to what the alphabet tells us.
The New York Times
The island of Uotsuri-Jima is claimed by both Japan and China.
Diaoyutai Isles, which Japanese refer to as Senkaku Islands, have been Chinese territory since 1403. There are plenty Chinese historical documents prove the Chinese sovereignty rights over the isles. History Professor Kiyoshi Inoue of Kyoto University has rightfully pointed out that documents published by the Japanese government even state so. For example, the maritime chart published for the military in 1785 by an eminent Japanese scholar, Hayashi Shihei (1738 -1793), known as the Sangoku setsujozu (i.e. A Map of Three Adjoining Countries) attached to the Sanggoku tsuran zusetsu (i.e. An Illustrated General Survey of Three Countries) clearly indicated the Chinese ownership of these islands in the maps by unambiguous color-codes.
It is simply outrageous that Japan would shamelessly declare that it "discovered" the "uninhibited Senkaku Islands" in 1885 -- exactly one hundred years after itself published the existence and lawful ownership of these islands.
Japan, a self-proclaimed pacifist nation, not only uses naval forces to take over the islands, but has announced its intention to station as many as 1,000 SDF Marines on the Chinese territory. The Bush administration has just subtly supported Japan's militarist claim through the so-called "U.S.-Japan Security Concerns" last Saturday. The neocons in the White House are desperate to find new partners-in-crime in their own empire-building venture. Japan is certainly more than willing to return to its diehard dream of imperial ambitions. W. finally finds a perfect ally for his "Coalition of the Willing."
(by alphakey)
Since nobody inhabits the island, and since the island is in dispute, I do not see how it is possible for Japan to be a controlling power. For an uninhabited island strongly contested by three governments (China, Taiwan, and Japan), I do not see how you can redirect Diaoyutai to Senkaku without taking a blatantly anti-Chinese/Taiwan stand in the issue and overtly supporting Japan's disputed claim. There are three nations disputing an UNINHABITED island. How does Japan have a stronger claim than the others if nobody lives there? One way to resolve this issue is to find a neutral name we can direct both articles to, like the Pinnacle Islands. Another way is to have separate pages and to update both simultaneously by copying/pasting one to the other. The minimal extra effort it takes to simply copy/paste both articles once in a while far outweighs the redirect/editing wars than can ensure. In terms of maintaining a neutral encycopedia, it is highly unethical to redirect Diaoyutai to Senkaku or vice versa. -Stanford08
Retrieved from "http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Contested_East_China_Sea_Islands"
HD888
I removed the word control and added unihabited. To provide a bit of balance, I also added Japan's claim in a separate sentence in the title. The details of these islands should really be linked to both Senkaku Islands and Diaoyutai Island as separate pages rather than a single one.
Hmmm. Technically, the islands belong to the USA (a technicality like Taiwan really being US territory), as I don't believe that they are specifically mentioned in the 72 treaty. I wonder if anyone in America cares.... Probably not. Heh. Stargoat 05:18, 28 Mar 2004 (UTC)
Should the names Pinnacle Islands and Tiaoyutai be added? --anon 10:27, December 7, 2004 (UTC)
The caption beneath the map at the news article plans defense against Chinese invasion says is the ROC callling so. -- 18:07, January 27, 2005, UTC
The text before the modification by Jiang.
The title of this article is Senkaku because it is Japan which is controlling the islands. It has no implications the islands belongs to Japan or any countries. For the sake of NPOV, the names of the islands are listed below according to alphabetical order in English.
As a matter of NPOV, "the Islands" will be used to refer to the islands in this article. __TOC__ ==Geography== |
after the modification
The Senkaku Islands (Japanese: 尖閣諸島; Senkaku-Shotō) are islands are currently under Japanese control but claimed by the People's Republic of China and the Republic of China (Taiwan), by which they are known as the Diaoyu Islands or Diaoyutai Islands (Simplified Chinese: 钓鱼台列岛, Hanyu Pinyin: Diàoyútái Lièdǎo) and Tiaoyu Tai or Tiaoyutai Islands (Traditional Chinese: 釣魚台列嶼, Tiaoyutai Lieyu). They are also known as the Pinnacle Islands, named by the British navigators, and the probable source of the Japanese name. Though these islands are too small to be pictured on most maps, their status have emerged as a major issue in Sino-Japanese relations. __TOC__ ==Geography== |
-- 20:15, February 9, 2005, UTC
I recovered the original status after a map check. TW Island and Uotsuri are close and both are located on the south of Zhejiang Province where Tachen is located. So at this moment there is no reason to deny ROC troops garrisoning on the island.
Any opinion?
-Yes, Tachen is a littoral island in Zhejiang provence, many miles from Uotsuri Island. The shortest distance from the Zhejiang littoral islands to Taiwan is a north-south route. From the same islands to the Senkakus is an east-west route. With the protection of the US 7th fleet, it does not make sense why US Navy Task Force 702 would travel hunderds of miles out of the way to go to Taiwan. The claim that ROC troops were garrisoned on Uotsuri and fired on Japanese ships is pure fantasy, somebody must be confusing it with Japan and Korea's dispute over Dok-do/Takeshima (I can see how one would confuse ROK (Korea) and ROC (Taiwan), or simply combine the two situations to mislead people unfamiliar with East Asian territorial disputes) and I could not find any third party sources on the net, let alone the original information. I've read many posts on veteren groups websites (simply google "Tachen Evacuation") and there is no mention of taking any of the evacuated ROC troops to Uotsuri or any other of the Senkaku Islands. Further more, a BBC article mentions that the PLA did not interfere with the evacuation of the island, thus negating the requirement to garrison troops on a far away Japanese island to protect said evacuation.
-Matt Deering 14 Feb 05 2345Z
OMG, stop changing the name of the article, and most of all, if one is going to childishly redirect the page, at least do so with the content. If people are gonna be such big crybabies over the name, have the name of the article be nice neutral Pinnacle Islands, which can be redirected from either Diaoyutai or Senkaku.
Seeing as there's been a lot of controversy over the naming of disputed territories (and not just at this article), I decided to start a strawpoll at Wikipedia talk:Naming conventions (disputed place names). Since many people here are likely to have an opinion on this, I'm advertising it here. Please notify people whom you think might be interested. --Xiaopo ℑ 02:17, 1 May 2005 (UTC)
Redirecting the article from Diaoyutai to Senkaku is a blatant support of Japan's disputed claim to the territory. In the interests of neutrality, I suggest we either keep two separate articles with Diaoyutai and Senkaku or we choose a neutral name like Pinnacle Islands. In any case, redirecting to Senkaku is way too biased to be a viable option. --Stanford08
I find it interesting that Japan unilaterally declared incorporation of these islands in 1895, the same year it occupied Taiwan as a result of the Sino-Japanese War (1894-1895).
This is exactly what happened with the islets in dispute between Korea and Japan, known as the Liancourt Rocks (Dokdo/Takeshima). Japan proclaimed them a part of the Shimane Prefecture under the doctrine of "terra nullius" in 1905, the same year that Japan annexed Korea after the Russo-Japanese War (1904-1905).
Why didn't Japan make a claim on either of these locations before? Something to think about, eh?
Obviously, these islands belong to Taiwan. Japan has simply refused to relinquish its claim. Because Taiwan is friendly with Japan, Taiwan doesn't seem to have taken up the Chinese claim for these islands as vigorously as the PRC. And Japan has taken advantage of this situation.
The key issue, however, is that Japan has occupied these islands and ownership is 99% of the law.
Regardless, this article reads biased. Too much of it is written from the Japanese POV and the title should be amended to "Senkaku/Diaoyu Islands" as is commonly accepted. I think a more balanced perspective is required.--Sir Edgar 05:00, 22 August 2005 (UTC)
I am new to this dispute as it was brought to my attention from the Liancourt Rocks discussion page. First, I must say that this article is a complete mess and needs a serious clean-up. I suggest taking the Sea of Japan / Dispute over the name of the Sea of Japan solution. There is one article for simply the facts (no politics) and one article for the politics. The Senkaku page reads like a battle-ground and not an encyclopaedia. Secondly, I suggest calling this page "Pinnacle Rocks". I know it is not the most common name (in fact a quick google search (minus Wikipedia) brought up 212 hits), but it is a fairly neutral name as it favours neither China (Taiwan) nor Japan, plus it is the English name, right? Well, after doing my quick google search, I went to the CIA fact book "China" and got this name under the dispute part at the bottom: "Senkaku-shoto (Diaoyu Tai)". I then went to "Japan" on CIA and got this: Senkaku-shoto (Diaoyu Tai). In the same paragraph, though, they mention "Japan and South Korea claim Liancourt Rocks (Take-shima/Tok-do)".
Now, I know that Pinnacle Islands are an extreme minority name for those islands, so listen to my solution:
I know that this goes against everything I have said in the past in other disputes, but I think that this might work for this one. The biggest difference (in naming) between these islands and Liancourt is that unlike Pinnacle islands, Liancourt is a fairly common name (but not the most common). Any thoughts? Masterhatch 24 August 2005 jg[a0ewjutg]0eqyg
This passage needs fact-checking.
The "Tokyo court" is too ambiguous. It can refer to the Tokyo District Court, the Tokyo High Court, (and the Supreme Court). Feigenbaum 08:06, 7 October 2005 (UTC)
The edit on Feb. 1 by User:Sumple seems biased. At first, please describe here what you want to insist. Let's discuss one by one.--Corruptresearcher 12:24, 1 February 2006 (UTC)
Regarding point 1, the Japanese policy of Terra Nuillus was also used on acquiring the Liancourt Rocks before annexation of Korea. Terra Nuillus only works if the island has been previously uninhabited and undiscovered. The Japanese claim to Liancourt Rocks nest on Terra Nuillus declared in 1905, yet Japanese foreign ministry maintains that Japan solely knew the island's existence since the 17th century. (http://www.mofa.go.jp/region/asia-paci/takeshima/position.html - Funny thing there is no mention about the Terra Nuillus part)There are historical documents from Korea which reaffirms the Korean knowledge of the islands from the 11th century. Since first Japanese (official) claim to the islands were nested on the policy of Terra Nuillus, I just wanted to point this fun fact out. Deiaemeth 00:42, 3 February 2006 (UTC)
Exactly. But Japan annexed the territory under "Terra Nuillus" and its claims were based on that the islands were not inhabited earlier and possessed by any states earlier. As you can read on the LR article, Japanese historians groundlessly asserted that Koreans did not possess the nautical skills needed to discover the island until 19th century. The Japanese authorities in early 20th century conveniently decided to forgo earlier history on the disputed territories. That's why Terra Nuillus is not mentioned in any of the Japanese foreign ministry website. Seeing as how this is the case for Liancourt Rocks, I wouldn't be surprised to find a similar incident in regarding the Senkaku Islands. Deiaemeth 09:27, 3 February 2006 (UTC)
The Chiense name "Diaoyu Dao" and "Diaoyutai Dao" respectively mean "Angling Island" and "Angling Platform Island". Angling in the sense of catching a fish using a hook and line. This is different from Fishing, which means the catching of fish in general. I'm making that edit. Hope nobody objects. --Sumple 00:58, 5 February 2006 (UTC)
I edited expression about the topic that the History of Ming classified Taiwan and Ryukyu as foreign country. The Dutch occupation in the Ming era was only for 20 years while Ming dinasty had continued 280 years. They continued to occupy 20 years in Qin eran and Zheng's occupation was also short, only 20 years. It is too short to be significant. I think it is not the reason why the History of Ming classfied Taiwan as foreign country. At least, Japanese scholars never insist so. If Chinese neither, please delete the following expression: (Chinese scholars considers this is because Taiwan and these islands were under the control of first the Dutch about 20 years before the fall of the Ming Dynasty, then the Ming-loyalist Zheng Chengong and his successor until 1683.) --Corruptresearcher 09:24, 7 February 2006 (UTC)
Today China does not recognize Japan's formal incorporation of the islands and claims that the Treaty of Shimonoseki of 17 April 1895, in which China ceded Taiwan to Japan, ceded the islands to Japan, although the treaty does not explicitly mention them.
and
Prof. Emeritus ASHIDA Kentaro (芦田健太郎) of Kobe University points out that the History of Ming (明史), the official history book of the Ming Dynasty compiled during the Qing period, described about Taiwan in the "Stories of Foreign Countries" (外国列伝) and therefore, China did not controlled the Senkaku Islands nor Taiwan and did not intend to possess them[1].
I have a question - does the History of Ming explicitly mention the islands as "foreign", or does it only mention Taiwan? If not, then I see a discrepancy here in that the text supporting the Japanese claim mentions that the Treaty of Shimonoseki did not explicitly mention them, while at the same time, this detail is left out concerning the History of Ming. And where did that "did not intend to possess them" part came from? How does declaring something as "foreign" mean that you don't intend to possess them? The reason Taiwan was foreign in the first place was because it was colonised by a foreign power.
Also, doesn't the fact that the islands were claimed in the Qing dynasty makes it moot that the History of Ming mentions them as foreign? I mean the whole point of the Qing claim was that:
And shouldn't the Treaty of Shimonoseki fall under the Chinese claim section, and the History of Ming under the Japanese claim section? It would make more sense if what's in the Chinese section actually supports the Chinese claim, and what's in the Japanese section actually supports the Japanese claim. --Hong Qi Gong 22:16, 8 March 2006 (UTC)
Also, the text about Qing dynasty China defeating Zheng Jing to reclaim Taiwan is not accurate. It was Zheng Ke-Shuang, Zheng Jing's son and Koxinga's grandson, that was was defeated. He submitted to Qing rule in 1683. --Hong Qi Gong 23:10, 8 March 2006 (UTC)
As I understand it, China has been dispatching war ships and drilling the gas fields, dispite the unsettled dispute. Could there be more information made available regarding development around the gas fields, and the geography of the gas fields and differing claims of Exclusive Economic Zones? Or is there already an article about that somewhere? (if so, a link would be nice) —Tokek 07:56, 29 March 2006 (UTC)
Seamless Wikipedia browsing. On steroids.
Every time you click a link to Wikipedia, Wiktionary or Wikiquote in your browser's search results, it will show the modern Wikiwand interface.
Wikiwand extension is a five stars, simple, with minimum permission required to keep your browsing private, safe and transparent.