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This archive includes threads from Talk:Red Dawn from the page's creation until December 31st, 2009.
 | This is an archive of past discussions about Red Dawn. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
| Archive 1 |
The page needs an update on the plot summary and can possibly have a character list.
Thank you (someone) for making this a proper entry.
Wasn't this movie banned in West Germany for its glorification of violence? Andries 08:18, 26 Jun 2005 (UTC)
- Unofficially, there were other problems with the film in West Germany. The big one being that some groups would like the film because it parallels certain events in post 1945 germany. Nobody would want to create any wave of nostalgia for the postwar diehards who fought against the occupation. Its not that far (unforunately) word-wise from "Wolverine" to "Werewolf" either. The futile death of almost everyone at the end also sent the wrong message.
we are talking about pro west, west germany rigth? as i can see why in whould be Banned in east germanyJoeyjojo 03:18, 28 March 2006 (UTC)
- While west germany was pro-west, the country was very sensitive to doing things that would deliberaly upset their communist neighbors. There was also lots of sensitivity in West Germany over anything that looked too militaristic and too right-wing because of the kind of people that stuff appeals to in the country.
This information is taken from the Wikipedia article on Calumet:
Calumet is a town in Canadian County, Oklahoma and is part of the Oklahoma City Metropolitan Area. As of 2005, the city is estimated to have a total population of 534.
Note that I have actually been to Calumet before, and know it is in Oklahoma. However, I sincerely doubt they remained in the vicinity of the town - that's a tactically unsound thing to do when you have a large enemy force looking for you. This would explain how they were in the Colorado Rockies later in the movie. There are mountain ranges in eastern Oklahoma, but Calumet is closer to Colorado than it is to the Ouachita Mountains, and because the Ouachitas have no strategic value whatsoever, it would make no sense for there to be a major tank battle underway there (not to mention the fact that Arapaho National Forest is in Colorado)). 63.215.29.111 03:38, 9 June 2007 (UTC)
Calumet is not a real city. The license plates on the cars are clearly Colorado tags, and the group flees to the Arapaho National Forest which is in north central Colorado. Also, just because an area "has no strategic value" doesn't mean their wouldn't be fighting on it. A battle could take place anywhere two enemy armies meet.
-- There are a lot of Calumets in the USA, one of which is in southern Colorado and used to be a mining town. It's near the intersection of multiple major roads/highways which expains why the Soviets would want to take it. It's also about 150 miles from the Arapaho National Forest. It's within range of Jed's pickup, but Red Dawn itself seems to imply the Wolverines operate in the mountains around Calumet. My best guess at reconciling this with the movie:
They took off down route 69 and camped out in the mountains south of Arapaho. From there, they'd be in walking range of Calumet and Google Maps even shows a ranch at the foothills which could be Mr. Mason's. Mr. Mason told them to stay the heck away from town, so they went north into Arapaho National Battlefield. After killing the 3 Soviet sightseers, they moved back south and began attacking the occupiers. 24.20.202.233 (talk) —Preceding undated comment added 05:52, 29 March 2009 (UTC).
New to Wikipedia, so forgive me for stepping where I shouldn't.
Was watching this movie on SpikeTV this evening and figured I would fix a few errors in this write-up. (Just changed Kansas City to Omaha and The Missouri River to the Mississippi River)
Wiki is phenominal by the way.
Greetings. I edited the Background info. Someone had stated that the paratroopers at the beginning of the movie were "Elite Soviet Spetsnaz" & "Cuban Special Forces", however this is never implicitly stated in the movie. They were Soviet VDV (Soviet Airborne). A very good job was done of replicating the uniforms, weapons and headgear! Also, you see the VDV marking on most of the replicate VDV (BMD's, etc) vehicles throughout the film. Also the VDV in the opening were speaking Russian, and were not Cubans.
Spetsnaz are what were used to track down the Wolverines after they were betrayed from within. Spetsnaz are very specialized units that would not participate in large scale airborne assaults as the one depicted. Also, the Cubans have never had a viable Airborne element, they lack the training, and most importantly, the means. Hence if there were Cuban paras involved in the backstory, they would have had to create this branch of the Cuban Army from scratch, train, and then equip them with transport.
Cuban and Nicaraguan ground units, yes, elite Airborne forces, definitely would be left to the Soviets.
- These are good points. In the context of this story, the Cubans could have infiltrated across the border with Mexico, instead of arriving by air. I realize the movie says that the Cuban Army's push north to link up with the Soviets was halted, but there is the possibility that the Cuban Colonel was sent ahead of the main force to take the passes in the town.
- Most likely, it is a movie goof, but I suppose you could make it work. :-P
- - grey ghost 22:13, 18 August 2006 (UTC)
Cubans and/or Nicarguans are definitely involved in the intitial paradrop. That's why one of the teens states that "I heard some of them speaking Spanish." Yes, the Soviet VDV would have made up the bulk of the force, but the Cubans did, in fact, have a viable airborne unit. In fact, they were used extensively in their war in Angola in the early '80's. It is also entirely possible that part of the massive troop build up included an expansion of this airborne force.
The background has been completed deleted. The backstory behind the war at hand is now gone. I strongly insist that this be restored. This is a war movie, so I can't imagine why somebody did that.71.192.134.75 (talk) 05:22, 12 July 2009 (UTC)
I remember reading somewhere that the plotline was inspired by a Soviet propaganda film depicting Soviet partisan resistance against the Nazis. Does anyone know more about this? GCarty 08:26, 16 August 2005 (UTC)
- I agree. I can't prove it, but it does seem to be very similar to a Soviet partisan film. However, Milius has publicly stated he was inspired by the Mujahideen and that one of his goals was to show an American audience what it was like to be an Afghan under the Soviet occupation. Palm_Dogg 05:48, 31 December 2005 (UTC)
- i can prove it im russian i actually remember that there was a film right after the Great Patriotic War where some teenagers in a Ukrainian town of Krasnodon fought the german army under largely the same circumstances and there are even plot similarities such as when one of the high school students in Red Dawn betrays all of them and is shot by one of the characters near the end, similar thing happens in the russian movie. the movie was called Molodaya gvardiya (young guards)(in russia elite armies are granted the title of guards)
- I grew up in the Soviet Union, but have been living in Denver, Colorado for many years now. So I am kind of close to the set-up of the "Red Dawn" from both sides:-). I had the same thoughts as the author of the comment above, when I first saw the movie. For those who grew up in Soviet Union the similarities to the novel by well-known Soviet author are obvious. There was a famous (in the USSR) novel by Alexander Fadeyev called "Molodaya Gvardiya" ("Young Guard"), which was later used as a basis for 1949 film with the same name. The story is based on true events that took place during WWII. See Wikipedia article about real "Young Guard" (Young Guard (Soviet resistance)). I am wondering if the authors of "Red Dawn" ever heard of "Young Guard"? The comment above that started this discussion speaks in favor of this possibility...
Now, few words regarding the likelihood of the events depicted in "Red Dawn". My father (long since retired) served with the General Staff of the Armed Forces of the USSR (a like of the "Pentagon" in US) during Cold War in the rank of General Major. He and my mother visited us in Denver on numerous occasions. During one of their visits I showed him the "Red Dawn". He enjoyed the movie, but said that during his time in the service the idea of direct invasion of USA was consistently dismissed from all possible scenarios of WWIII that were considered. Belov-usa-net (talk) 19:20, 26 February 2008 (UTC)
- You may be referring to the movie Armored Attack, which had nothing to do with either armor or an attack (it was later re-named The North Star, which makes more sense), but it portrays a German rear-echelon unit (primarily a hospital, which sucks all the blood out of Russian children for their blood supply) and how it is defeated by a communal-based guerrilla force, thus showing (IIRC) the glory of democracy (not sure how communists vs nazis does that). It's definately a propaganda film. 138.162.128.54 (talk) 07:03, 30 October 2008 (UTC)
I was bold and merged the top couple of paragraphs of an article called Operation Red Dawn (film) with this one, then redirected. No sense in having two articles on the film, and the other one had the wrong name and doesn't add any detail. I added a couple of paragraphs at top, about gun control and about Operation Red Dawn, to this article; do with them what ye will. bikeable (talk) 05:35, 31 December 2005 (UTC)
This movie sounds very expensive, with all the fake vehicles and paradrops. Captain Jackson 18:57, 21 February 2006 (UTC)
- The key word is "fake". So how expensive would something that is fake, be?
-G —Preceding unsigned comment added by 134.117.158.83 (talk) 21:17, 3 October 2007 (UTC)
Now, I have never heard the song in question, nor seen the lyrics, but that line, especially coupled with the mention of this movie, makes me wonder if the words aren't actually Iron Eagle. - SAMAS 23 March, 2006
- I have the album with the reference song, and the line is, indeed, "Iron Eagle." I changed them.
I noticed in the history of edits that the references to the band of teenagers were changed to "insurgents." In a few cases, the former term was partisan. I'm not trying to dive in too deep here, but based on the definition of the two words, wouldn't partisan better describe the band?
For example:
- Partisan - n. - A member of an organized body of fighters who attack or harass an enemy, especially within occupied territory; a guerrilla.
- Insurgent - n. - A person who rises in revolt against an established authority, especially a government.
taken from The American Heritage® Dictionary of the English Language, Fourth Edition
I guess it all depends on if you could classify the communist government in the movie as an "established authority" or if you consider the band as "members of an organized body of fighters."
- grey ghost 02:34, 9 June 2006 (UTC)
- If they were Iraqi, they'd be called terrorists... :) "Fighters" would be a better term, as it doesn't describe a motive, just an action. Dave420 12:29, 27 September 2006 (UTC)
- Iraqis are only labeled as "terrorists" if they seek to kill a mass number of innocent bystanders and non-combatants where as if they strike military targets in a manner consistent with normal warfare, they are called "insurgents." The partisan rangers in this story do not target civilians in such a manner, so they are not terrorists. I agree with what you say about "fighters." -GreyGh0st 07:50, 12 November 2006 (UTC)
- I vote partisan. Seems that the Soviets in the story were not actually an established government at any point in the story. They were at war with America during the whole movie occupying land that was not surrendered by the US. Ryratt 03:59, 23 April 2007 (UTC)
I just noticed this quote from the Plot Summary:
- "The group calls themselves the Wolverines after their school’s team/mascot and proceed to attack the occupying forces using ambushes, sniper attacks, booby traps, terrorist-style bombings in the town itself on Soviet positions, and raids on the occupiers' supply depots and convoys."
I'm pretty sure it is hard to argue that the Wolverines are "terrorists" in the confines of this plot. Of the actions that are involved in, none can be expressed as "terrorism." Take into account that the definition of terrorism according to the American Heritage Dictionary is:
- "The unlawful use or threatened use of force or violence by a person or an organized group against people or property with the intention of intimidating or coercing societies or governments, often for ideological or political reasons."
Where "against people or property" in this case is ment to mean non-military civilians and related targets. Again, none of the Wolverines' actions in the plot are specifically directed at a civilian population, hostile or otherwise.
The only part of the movie that I can remember that could be riding the line of terrorism was the bombing of the so-called "Soviet-American Friendship Center". The problem with calling this event out-right terrorism is that the center seemed to be legitimate support for the occupying army. Its propaganda purpose aside, it seemed from the movie that this center was in the business of housing troops and their collabarators.
In the end, I can agree that with the mentioned bombing scene of the center, the Wolverines were riding a fine line with terrorism, but definately not crossing the line. There purpose was never to target un-armed civilians in an attempt to coerce the Communist forces to leave or other demands. Therefore they are not terrorists.
-GreyGh0st 19:02, 31 July 2007 (UTC)
Perhaps guerrilla warfare is a more appropriate characterization than "terrorism"
-Gillwill 20:07, 31 July 2007 (UTC)
In the movie the Cuban commander calls them Partisans Bhcompy (talk) 22:26, 11 January 2008 (UTC)
This whole section is POV--somebody was offended by a besmirching of the Red Army, I guess--and is opinion. I deleted the most egregious comment but in my opinion the whole thing is offensively POV as it stands now. Rewrite or delete.--Buckboard 08:40, 16 July 2006 (UTC)
- It also has a strong whiff of original research about it. I think entirely remove it. As an aside, I find it incredible that such a minor film (and that's putting it gently) has such a long article - suspiciously fancrufty. --Plumbago 08:52, 16 July 2006 (UTC)
- Oh, I don't know. This film was hardly minor. It was a popular box office hit, possibly influential, and a good example of a pop culture tie-in with politics in the mid-1980s. Now if we had separate articles on every character in the film no matter how minor, and maybe an article on homoerotic overtones in Red Dawn and one on Red Dawn Democrats, now that would be fancrufty. 70.108.86.207 20:13, 21 July 2006 (UTC)
- Entirely agree. You got me 70.108.86.207. Kudos dude. --Plumbago 21:48, 21 July 2006 (UTC)
It would be difficult for a small band of teenagers, with very little training in military tactics, to be capable of subduing whole companies of professional Soviet soldiers, especially considering the Soviet Army had already overpowered the professional American military, unless of course they were wearing Viet Cong.
- I'd like to comment on this, so that it might be edited. They don't defeat entire companies of Soviet Troops (e.g. 100-200 men groups). In the movie, they ambush supply convoys and take on platoon strength units. This is entirely possible for guerilla forces to do. Also, the Soviet troops being used to occupy Colorado are going to be the lower quality conscripts. The best soldiers, their elites, are either actively engaging the US military or are being kept in the Soviet Union. The Soviets were widely known for having large, low quality conscript armies.
- Absolutely right, un-named person who replied to another un-named person. These are rear-echelon security troops. In any case, a study of the TTPs used by one Colonel John S Mosby will help understand how such things can be done. 138.162.128.55 (talk) 06:57, 30 October 2008 (UTC)
This whole section should be taken out as it is POV Mirlin 04:48, 22 July 2006 (UTC)
I agree totally. Clean it up or chuck it altogether. - grey ghost 22:03, 18 August 2006 (UTC)
{{unreferenced}}
- Though Red Dawn is a work of fiction, there are many aspects of the movie that are just not believable given the premise that the film takes on:
- There are many inaccuracies in translation from Russian to English. For instance, in one scene a Russian soldier yells "Help me, God!" in Russian, but the subtitles read "help me," but when the Russian soldier actually does yell "Help me!" the subtitles read "help me God!" It should also be noted that it is very unlikely that a conscript or officer in the Soviet Army would call for God since the USSR was officially an atheist state, and soldiers in the Red Army were indoctrinated as such.
- It would be difficult for a small band of teenagers, with very little training in military tactics, to be capable of subduing whole companies of professional Soviet soldiers.
- The idea that the Central American states could muster a force to invade the United States, much less form an alliance with the Soviet Union, is preposterous, considering that that region was embroiled in civil war and instability at the time and was under heavy influence by the United States.
- The conscript ensign on the hats of the Russian regulars is inaccurate.
- The Soviet Paratroopers' camouflage pattern is inaccurate.
- The Soviet Hinds were in fact French-made Puma transport helicopters.
- One of the American tanks (supposedly an M-1 Abrams) is in fact a British Centurion.
- In the movie, Soviet soldiers were seen using the AKM automatic rifle (the modernised version of the famous AK-47 rifle), although the Soviet army had officially switched over to the AK-74 (an AKM rechambered in 5.45x39mm rather than 7.62x39mm) in 1974, roughly 10 years before the movie takes place. This is somewhat expected, as most movies show "enemies" using the AK-47 or any Kalashnikov-type rifle.
- In the scene downtown shortly after the Soviets had gained a foothold, Russians are seen massacring the populace, and when one US attack helicopter comes, it causes massive casualties while remaining unscathed from large amounts of anti-air fire.
- Remember this is a hypothetical reality; maybe they never made the AK74... Also Central America probably wasn't in the same state it really was. Nicht Nein! 18:23, 26 December 2006 (UTC)
A lot of the trivia was more just pop culture references so I moved it. It does seem like the trivia section is too big, and some of it is repetitive, but a lot of it was interesting was well. What is not interesting is noting every time some lame sitcom/band mentions Red Dawn in passing. While those entries should probably just be removed, it seemed like a lot to delete.
SIGN YOUR POSTS USING ~~~~ thanks Travb (talk) 13:33, 5 October 2006 (UTC)
I always make fun of people who ask questions on wikipages, User:Travb/If I had a nickel
But out of desperation, here I go. I can't find an article that talks about Patrick Swayze being the worst actor and being responsible for the worst movies of all time, including Red Dawn, anyone read this article, if so were did you read it at? Please message me on my talk page if you have, because I am not going to watch this page. I will then track down this article and post it offline for all to read. Sounds good? Travb (talk) 13:33, 5 October 2006 (UTC)
The map doesn't seem to accurately portray the Soviet invasion on US soil. Please compare the red-colored areas on the map with the textual description. Hugo Dufort 21:42, 9 October 2006 (UTC)
- Could you plese be a bit more specific? I looked at the map and the text and they seem similar to me. I was thrown of by the little red dots at first, but if you click all the way to the image page, there is a key which explains these are approximate sites of nuclear strikes. Perhaps we need to actually include the key in the article alongside the pciture. Is there something specific that does not seem to match up for you between the map and the text? Johntex\talk 22:14, 9 October 2006 (UTC)
I just wanted to mention that there is a mistake on the map regarding Mongolia. In the map it is red and depicted as either part of the U.S.S.R or one of its allies, yet in both real life or in the film Mongolia has never been part of the Soviet Union, or been in an alliance with them. The Architect 01 19:43, 20 November 2006 (UTC)
Firstly, Mongolia was part of Comecon and so was at least somewhat associated with the Soviet Union. Secondly, someone needs to take a serious look at the map and watch the film, and decide which areas of the USA should be coloured red (I think many more than there currently are). Clearly the map is inaccurate because if Denver is under siege and the Soviets have almost complete control of Colorado, then I believe they must have had control of the surrounding states also or at least New Mexico and Oklahoma (if they don't have control of Oklahoma then they must have magically jumped over part of it and attacked Colorado instead). Cuba probably also took Florida but there's no way to prove it. Maybe states of unknown status should be striped blue and red to show that they could have been either under American or Soviet control, or the best possible estimate could be used to colour the correct places. Either way someone needs to watch the film and re-evaluate which states should be red. -- Anonymous, December 1 2006
Alright, you're correct man, I checked and Mongolia was part of the Comecon, my bad. But since Mongolia was put on the map, all of the Comecon Countries should be included. The Architect 01 17:56, 12 December 2006 (UTC)
Yup, that map is wrong. According to the movie, as stated by Col. Tanner, "the whole Cuban and Nicarguan armies rolled right up through Texas, up through the Great Plains." And later, when asked how far they got, he states, "Cheyenne. Across to Kansas. We stopped them at the Rockies and at the Mississippi." Keep in mind that the implied reason for the invasion was the seizure of American grain supplies. With that said, I think it is plausible to assume that New Mexico, Texas, Colorado, Louisiana, Oklahoma, Arkansas, and parts of Kanas are under Soviet occupation.
- It would seem logical to overlay the map with geographic information as the Mississippi and the Rockies are battle lines. This is as close as I can get to a consistent description:
- Col. Bella near the start says there are tanks coming in from the plains and to dig in. This seems to suggest that the invasion originally didn't get much farther than central Kansas or southeast Colorado wouldn't be endangered by American armor.
- Mr. Mason tells the boys they're "40 miles behind enemy lines" which mean that somewhere near south-central CO is unoccupied. On Google Maps, the logical place for the line is along route 160 halfway between Fort Garland and Calumet. Extrapolating north, this allows the Soviets to be touring Arapaho National Battlefield and besieging Denver while they were stopped at the Rockies.
- When Tanner attempts to return to America, they are in a mountainous battlefield which suggests this is the western front further into the Rockies
- But at the end, Matt tells Danny and Erica to "head out for the plains," even though the Soviet occupation at the Rockies extends up to the Kansas-Nebraska border.
- This seems to suggest that the occupation holds Arkansas, extends across southern Kansas, then slopes up into a "bubble" covering Denver up to Cheyenne before ending at the Rockies, turning south and down the middle of New Mexico back to to the border. It may have originally extended farther north, but if freedom is towards the plains then they must have been pushed back. 24.20.202.233 (talk) —Preceding undated comment added 07:06, 29 March 2009 (UTC).
Mongolia was closest ally of Soviet Union since 1920s, in fact soviet influence in internal affairs was very strong, and the country was often dubbed as "sixteenth republic" even by common folk in USSR. 195.98.64.69 03:42, 11 September 2007 (UTC)
That map is too much original research, not really encylopediac (Forgive my spelling)24.45.214.174 (talk) 17:14, 9 August 2010 (UTC)
I really like that you are contributing to the page, but I don't remember seeing this flag anywhere in the movie... if I'm wrong, just tell me where it was in the movie, and I'll move it back to the page. GreyGh0st 23:51, 18 October 2006 (UTC)
- This flag was first introduced in a parade in the main town in Red Dawn. It was the flag of the occupied zone (in the usa), which was controled by the Soviet and Cuban armies. This flag was fixed on a staff, shown at a parade, and given to citizens with the Cuban and Soviet flags. This is the only time this flag was shown. www.crwflags.com/fotw/flags/fic_redd.html (13:13, 19 October 2006 (UTC))
It mentions in the trivia that Calumet was an actual town in Colorado. However I can find nothing on Google about it. Was there really a town there or is this a rumor? -WarthogDemon 01:42, 3 November 2006 (UTC)
- It's a ghost town.
Calumet is a town in Upper Michigan. One of the producers grew up there.
Hello, at various times, this article has claimed that Lt. Col. Andrew Tanner was either an F-15 pilot or a F-111 pilot. We don't seem to have a reference that would support one being correct over the other. Therefore, I am going to change the references to read simply "fighter plane" or "fighter pilot". That way we are safe. Johntex\talk 18:00, 12 December 2006 (UTC)
- No man, in the movie right after Erica finds Tanner and brings him to the camp one of the boys asks what kind of plane he flew and he says, "Well I did fly an F-15. (Tears off patch from shoulder) Here, I'm an Eagle driver." An Eagle is code for the F-15. Change it back man! The Architect 01 17:58, 13 December 2006 (UTC)
- Can you provide a reliable source that verifies this? A link to a full movie transcript, perhaps? Johntex\talk 18:26, 13 December 2006 (UTC)
- Not at the moment, I'll look for one, but I've watched the movie a thousand times and I can GUARANTEE that Tanner flew an F-15. The Architect 01 16:58, 14 December 2006 (UTC)
- I'll post-pone making the change for now, to allow others to comment and/or find a source (which would be ideal). Johntex\talk 17:42, 14 December 2006 (UTC)
- I'll try to find a script of the movie later, but he definitely says he's an F-15 pilot... I think he tells Jed "I'm an Eagle driver." There is an F-111 in the film, on a bombing run in the scene where Tanner was killed, but Tanner never says that he piloted one. ZakuTalk 00:34, 16 January 2007 (UTC)
- Yes, I have this movie on DVD, seen it many times on TV as well; he does say he is an "Eagle driver", and the F15 is this Eagle. Nicht Nein! 07:04, 16 January 2007 (UTC)
- I'll try to find a script of the movie later, but he definitely says he's an F-15 pilot... I think he tells Jed "I'm an Eagle driver." There is an F-111 in the film, on a bombing run in the scene where Tanner was killed, but Tanner never says that he piloted one. ZakuTalk 00:34, 16 January 2007 (UTC)
- I'll post-pone making the change for now, to allow others to comment and/or find a source (which would be ideal). Johntex\talk 17:42, 14 December 2006 (UTC)
I guess this theme of foreign invasion ain't just for countries that like invading other countries. Apparently there’s a Swedish novel that involves a Soviet invasion of that country sometime during the Cold War (ostensibly as part of a wider NATO/Warsaw Pact confrontation). The only details I know about it is mention of Russian aircraft bombing the highways as the military and civilians attempt to withdraw from Stockholm. Anyone know about this book?74.36.192.6 03:50, 23 January 2007 (UTC)
- Could be Operation Garbo you're thinking about. I think there's an article on it on the Swedish Wikipedia, if you can read it. Otherwise, you could try Google. (Note: I don't think there's any English translation of it, so if you don't read Swedish it might not help you.) Custodes 08:18, 24 August 2007 (UTC)
I google box office and got 38 million but no production cost. Did it make money, is the studio get money when its on Spike monthly? —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 209.206.165.44 (talk) 06:23, 28 January 2007 (UTC).
There should be some mention of the Australian series of novels, Tomorrow when the war began which took its premise directly from the film: a foreign enemy lands in a small town and a group of teen rebels fight for their lives (and the lives of their families). I seem to recall it being on this page, I don't know why it was removed. McDanger 09:35, 5 April 2007 (UTC)
- Could you cite the source you have for the book series being inspired by the film? --Safe-Keeper 15:25, 24 June 2007 (UTC)
I don't think a Soviet invasion of the US would have been The Apocalypse or even an apocalypse. This article doesn't belong in that category. Dithadder 20:23, 13 June 2007 (UTC)
"In an episode of Scrubs the main characters call their scooter gang the Wolverines, in homage to Red Dawn. In another episode, Turk and Elliot watch Red Dawn. Turk says "You know what's the cool thing about this movie? That this could really happen." to which Elliot replies "Which part? The Russians invading Michigan or C. Thomas Howell being a tough guy?" Turk instantly replies, "Both."[episode needed]" I am kind of new to wikipedia, so if someone could add that it was Season 1 episode 16, thanks
Re: Trivia
I don't think the item is online, but it's definitely noted as such in the Guinness Book of World Records 1987 version.
Some movies released since then may have outdone it (e.g. Rambo III), but at its time, it was considered the most violent film yet released (by Guinness and the National Coalition on Television Violence anyway, in terms of number of killings directly depicted on screen).
However, technically, many other earlier films could could be considered more violent and containing more killings. At least "implied" killings. (e.g. From Here to Eternity, considering how many people were killed in the attack on Pearl Harbor or other war movies showing bombings of populated cites)
I would concur that it's questionable to declare Red Dawn as the most violent film, even up until its time; however, that such a claim appeared in the Guinness Book of Records is indeed true.
from what i what i can remember, i saw a su-25 frogfoot, a couple t-64s, some BRDMs. So were these props or the real things? IF they were real, how did hollywood get them??
- Who knows? Probably a deal with the local Army base. "Hey, let us rent some of your stuff, you can be an extra in the movie." Lots42 10:01, 27 October 2007 (UTC)
- IIRC, there's a film prop company that deals in this kind of stuff...and they were not acquired from actual military contacts. Look up Veluzat Motion Picture Rentals. It's a safe bet that some of the 'Russian armor' used in the movie were later fielded in Rambo III. To the anon: that 'Frogfoot' you saw is a YAK-36 Forger replica. Eaglestorm (talk) 17:46, 11 December 2007 (UTC)
- Some of the stuff is neither. As the train passes through town during the last shoot-out, there were one each of an early WW2 German and US 37mm anti-tank gun on a flag car. Heck, that stuff was obsolete in 1942! 138.162.128.54 (talk) 06:54, 30 October 2008 (UTC)
I say the entire 'Themes' section should go. Not only is it all unoriginal research, it's confusing, unsupported, slightly illogical unoriginal research. Who's with me? Lots42 10:00, 27 October 2007 (UTC)
Do you mean original reasearch? —Preceding unsigned comment added by Dannysjgdf (talk • contribs) 13:58, 12 July 2008 (UTC)
"Although most of the high school partisans are killed, a voice-over appears at the end of the movie by Erica, one of the two survivors, showing a World War III memorial. The American flag flying above it implies the United States had - eventually — won the war.
The exact quote framing 'Partisan Rock' is:
'I never saw the brothers again. In time, this war, like every other war, ended. But I never forgot, and I come to this place often, when no one else does.'
'In the early days of World War 3, guerrillas, mostly children, placed the names of their lost upon this rock. They fought here alone; and gave up their lives, so that this nation shall not perish from the earth.'"
- I don't see how this explains a theme in the movie, it sounds more like an explanation of what happens at the end. Either this needs to be omitted or put into the plot summary section. Demoman87 (talk) 17:55, 7 October 2008 (UTC)
In light of the recent de-tagging, it's worth noting that this section is a mixture of detail about actual events in the film, along with uncited interpretations. The collaboration of the mayor, etc., would be better placed in the plot summary. Observations about Milius's motivations for including certain scenes/details should be properly cited to reputable sources that discuss such issues and draw those conclusions. I am therefore reverting the de-tagging. Nick Cooper (talk) 10:22, 21 September 2009 (UTC)
- You wish is my command, Nick. I've made that change. The themes section is gone, and what was in it, well, most of it, is in the plot section. If people still don't believe that what's there is in the film, you're invited to come to my house and watch my copy. Openskye (talk) 01:48, 22 September 2009 (UTC)
- Good call. The section is actually completely unreferenced, so I've used a stronger tag. I'm of the opinion that it consists entirely of personal interpretation in its present form anyway, but I dare say that someone must have written an interpretation of the film's themes in a reliable source over the years. Chris Cunningham (not at work) - talk 10:34, 21 September 2009 (UTC)
I certainly hope this article doesn't end up having a list of every time a character somewhere in some other show screams the catch phrase. Lots42 (talk) 02:07, 11 December 2007 (UTC)
Who here thinks we should trim down the cast list? It's full of red links and has characters such as "Man #3 at Drive In"! I know the idea of including information is good and that's what this encyclopedia is about. But this list actually harms the article, it looks amateurish as it's just been lifted straight off IMDB, and the links weren't even checked properly! (although I have fixed that by the time of writing this). Thoughts please Ryan4314 (talk) 05:30, 11 December 2007 (UTC)
- Go ahead, leave the main characters back in. I got a feeling that some of the extra character entries were actually put in by vanity spammers. Eaglestorm (talk) 17:42, 11 December 2007 (UTC)
The trivial trivia section was actually removed here, this tag now hangs above a decent Production Notes section. I'm going to remove the tag, and also admittedly some trivial information that's currently lurking in the production notes bit. Ryan4314 (talk) 03:04, 31 December 2007 (UTC)
The supposed teen rebels call themselves Wolverines, which I heard was the name of nazi paramilitary groups who continued to resist even after the german Third Reich fell on 9th May 1945. They allegedly assassinated the soviet military governor of Berlin in autumn 1945. 82.131.210.162 (talk) 12:31, 11 March 2008 (UTC)
Sure, trivia is -discouraged-, not forbidden but I think the re-inserted trivia is just too, well, trivial to bother integrating at all. Just an opinion. Lots42 (talk) 03:02, 2 June 2008 (UTC)
- I've been incorporating some of the trivia into the main article, but the current (as of 2 June 2008) three bits of trivia I can't neatly integrate. The items about the plot being based on a study of US weaknesses (if a citation can be found) and the bit about the McDonald's massacre are worthy of note, I think. But the world can live without knowing about Colonel Strelnikov's origins and Smith's personal history. Lighthope (talk) 05:22, 3 June 2008 (UTC)
According to Empire Magazine, October 2008, filming of a remake is currently underway. Anyone have any info that we can post here? (Bobbo9000 (talk) 13:32, 1 October 2008 (UTC))
Shouldnt a fanatic right wing propaganda crap film like this one have one of those topics on the main page? Afterall it was white American Christian terrorist Timothy Mcveighs favourite film according to crimelibrary.com! And Russia attacking USA in a film that was made during the cold war! If no militia dudes objects ill make some dramatic changes here.
- Please try to make NPOV edits, not the "dramatic" kind you want to do...and take your cause-oriented diatribes somewhere else. Thank you.--Eaglestorm (talk) 02:40, 2 December 2008 (UTC)
- Naturally the edits will be fair and balanced nothing dramatic as in the film intro when the Russians land in the middle of nowhere and for no reason whatsoever starts to machine gun all school children before they blow up the school with rocket launchers. Probably because they thought we are too stupid to understand that an invading force is evil unless they did something dramatic.
- You seem unaware of the invasions that the Soviet Union carried out. You know, rolling tanks into cities and sending political opponents to the gulag? Do you have any friends in Afghanistan, Yugoslavia (former), Poland, Chechnya, Czechoslovakia (former), or Ukraine? Maybe you should check with them before spouting nonsense. As far as the article is concerned, I think coverage of any controversies it stirred would be fabulous to add, just make sure it's well sourced. ChildofMidnight (talk) 23:54, 14 January 2009 (UTC)
- The young are the members of the community most able to survive hard conditions and the most likely to be reactionary and run off into the hills. Stop resistors before they start or you'll get what the Soviets got all throughout the movie. 128.223.32.10 (talk) —Preceding undated comment added 22:30, 30 March 2009 (UTC).
- @ COM, I agree, I hope sources are still online about reviews for the film.--Eaglestorm (talk) 14:38, 10 January 2010 (UTC)
- This article sucks. Normally, the main use of Wiki is for someone who doesn't know anything about a subject and just heard of it, and they can go type it in Wiki and get a very brief outline of what it is, and read into more detail if they had further interest. This discussion page tells you 50x more about how Red Dawn fits into the world and into history. Red Dawn was the most idiotic, laughable piece of garbage of the year it came out, but it has gone on to become somewhat of a cult classic, and revered in many ways by many people for different reasons, and this article doesn't even touch on any of that. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 208.127.100.147 (talk) 09:34, 16 February 2010 (UTC)
While interesting, the info about the city is not germane enough to film to be in opening, which a little long. It should be in the body somewhere (although it needs a source), so I pasted it below for others to work it into the production section.
The film is set in a fictionalized Calumet, Colorado, in reality a former mining town and now an abandoned ghost town. Calumet was chosen as a ambiguous American township and a deliberately vague setting, so as that it could be related to almost anywhere in the US. Red Dawn was actually filmed in the town of Las Vegas, New Mexico, which stood in for this fictionalized Calumet.
This part was patently false in addition to being more an interpretation than a statment of fact based on a source (such as a reviewer's take on it). Several times the film follows the character played by Ron O'Neal and give the viewer information the principle characters do not have.
However the onset of World War III is merely in the background of the plot and not fully elaborated on, and events are seen solely through the eyes of a group of American high school students...
Hence the changes. Also, shortened up because there is the (over)long section detailing the backstory, which is amusingly as long as the section on the actual plot. RoyBatty42 (talk) 20:56, 16 April 2009 (UTC)
This is a movie. The Plausibility section is as big as the entire article. Movies don't have to make sense. Is Star Wars plausible? —Preceding unsigned comment added by Rlbarton (talk • contribs) 12:49, 18 June 2009 (UTC)
Someone has just done it. It looks like original research, so should be removed on this basis unless the author references it. On the other hand, Star Wars do not pretend to be plausible while this movie does... So plausibility section may be justifies, especially in criticism. DR2006kl (talk) 12:58, 18 June 2009 (UTC)
- It's been removed, don't worry...and you're right: section's full of OR. It's better off in some blog or a research paper, not here. --Eaglestorm (talk) 14:43, 18 June 2009 (UTC)
I added the section on plausibility because, as stated, the movie works hard at establishing itself as plausible and as this is a very well studied problem the relevant research exists. I'm confident that all of this can be referenced from open sources, but that takes time. In the meantime, I have put up the basic (and easily verifiable) facts of the logistics.
- 99.234.x (author of the above unsigned comment), you don't seem to have seen my reply on my talk page, where you asked about why I removed the plausibility section, so I'm going to copy it here:
- I actually removed the section because it was both uncited and very peripheral to the article. Even if the section was completely cited, such a long section on plausibility gives undue weight to analysis of the movie rather than encyclopedic facts about it. The fact that it was also completely without citations didn't help, but it wasn't my only motivation (although looking at my edit summary now, I notice I didn't make that clear - sorry!). Citations for analytic sections like you wrote are necessary not just for individual facts, like runway lengths, but for the analysis itself, things like "an invasion over the southern border is not credible". We have a policy called "synthesis" which disallows sections like yours appeared to be, where the author takes facts and writes something that reads between the lines of the actual facts. If someone else in a reliable source had published a plausibility analysis of Red Dawn, then we could summarize that analysis for the article. But for an editor of the Wikipedia to create that section based on their own knowledge, is pretty much not allowed. We actually tend to be quite strict about this, so even for an analysis that seems obvious to the writer, we want to see reliable sources.
- I would be very uncomfortable letting the section back in the article at its current length (a paragraph might be appropriate, a section the length of an essay is not) and without citations to a reliable source for the analysis itself, not just for individual facts. If you'd like to work on improving the section in the hopes of making it appropriate for the article, the text you added and I removed is still available in the article history (click on the "history" tab at the top of the article to get there), so you can access it there and copy it to your user page, where you can work on it at your leisure.
- I'm going to ask that you please not re-add the section to the article without working on the things I've mentioned and then proposing the addition on the article talk page, so other editors can decide if any changes you make to the section render it appropriate for addition.
- In short, unless and until you have a version of the section that is much shorter and has references for the ANALYSIS, not just the facts themselves, then the plausibility section is not appropriate for Wikipedia. keɪɑtɪk flʌfi (talk) 22:51, 27 June 2009 (UTC)
- Chaotic, he didn't see your reply but took the time to PM me because I slapped him with NOR warnings? That guy never even sought consensus. Jeez, and I suppose this warrants another lengthy response from him. To the anon: if you can't even listen to us as to how unfeasible the section you're trying to add is, well, Wikipedia's not the place for you not matter how scholarly your research is. --Eaglestorm (talk) 02:14, 28 June 2009 (UTC)
Just ran across the 1971 novel Vandenberg in a used book shop, and the premise seemed quite similar to that of Red Dawn, including a Soviet attack and occupation of the USA by Latin American forces. From the disamb page Vandenberg: "Vandenberg (novel) is a 1971 fictional book by Oliver Lange taking place in a United States under a Soviet occupation." I don't know anything else about this work. -- 201.37.230.43 (talk) 12:09, 23 July 2009 (UTC)
- Another book to look at as a source would be The Moon Is Down by John Steinbeck. Markvs88 (talk) 15:14, 30 December 2009 (UTC)
Quote: "The fall of the Berlin Wall was only 5 years away, and the total economic and political collapse of the Soviet Union was only 7 years away."
These facts are totally irrelevant for the movie's production and its reception by critics. At the time of the movies release nobody had any idea that these events were even likely to happend within a few years! Trying to construct any connection ex post is absolut ridiculous POV. Even my most conservative friends were laughing their b*tts off on this totaly crappy peace of political propaganda.
This is one of the campiest nonsense productions ever made without the slightest regards to political facts and millitary reallities. --Nemissimo (talk) 17:03, 8 October 2009 (UTC)
Is Partisan Rock a real rock formation, or was it a prop made for the movie? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.185.226.203 (talk) 05:43, 18 October 2009 (UTC)
I recall a scene in which a Russian soldier reads an English sign to his mates: the real text is about a natural park, but he tells something like "In this point, x Indians were killed by the US Army...". Was the scene so? Should it be mentioned? --Error (talk) 02:09, 30 December 2009 (UTC)
- The scene you refer to is early in the film when the three Soviet soldiers (well, at least they're speaking Russian) come up the mountain and take a sight-seeing trip. One of the soldiers (the short one supposedly well versed in American History and whom has studied English) does an amazing first rate mis-translation of the sign for Arapaho National Forest. In fact, there was no battle there and President Theodore Roosevelt was certainly not an Indian fighter ala George Armstrong Custer. Markvs88 (talk) 15:12, 30 December 2009 (UTC)
| This is an archive of past discussions about Red Dawn. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
| Archive 1 |
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