Talk:Processed cheese

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Labeling section should probably be expanded

Although processed cheese products are popular in the US, and the article has a short section on labeling, other countries also have labeling restrictions for the legal definition of "cheese", such as Canada. The article could eventually be expanded. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.10.128.192 (talk) 23:20, 18 June 2012 (UTC)

Localisation Information

I have moved the information regarding US commercial ventures from the introduction to make the article more POV-neutral (processed cheese is sold globally under a variety of names, classifications and legal constraints). The full content appeared to already exist later on in the article, but if I have inadvertently lost details, please do restore them within the relevant sub-section. I have placed the US legal and sales data in relevant national sub-sections along with the limited (and as yet uncited) reference to British brands. Additional sections on other national variants and legal codes should be added, particularly non-Anglophone countries, but I do not have the relevant information to do so at this stage. Mhbeals (talk) 00:28, 12 August 2014 (UTC)

Photos of other things

Some photos used in the article show items that are specifically mentioned as being not processed cheese, since they contain non-approved ingredients or too little cheese. Wouldn't it be better and more accurate to limit photos to items that actually fit the definition? TooManyFingers (talk) 15:08, 8 September 2023 (UTC)

I agree. I am removing the photos for Easy Cheese and Velveeta from the article for this reason. BrianHagan (talk) 20:12, 20 January 2024 (UTC)

@TooManyFingers and BrianHagan: I reverted Brian's edit because we could still use these photos to drive home the distinction between regulated "cheese" and unregulated terms. I instead added the current manufacturer names ("product" "snack").

We also have a problem of the lead section being way too loose compared to the US legal definition. But should we change it at all? It's arguably correct in the colloquial sense, as people (even snobby chefs, heck especially snobs) do not colloquially distinguish between a real slice of "processed cheese" and a "Kraft Single". Artoria2e5 🌉 12:33, 1 February 2024 (UTC)

With these good captions making it clear what they show, I'm fine with keeping these pictures in.

As to laws and regulations, I think it would be specifically wrong to conform an entire Wikipedia article to U.S. law when the article is about an international topic. I would expect a lead section that gives a half-decent world overview (of places where the topic applies, so in this case ignoring any places where processed cheese is insignificant or not recognized), and then separate sections lower down for the details in different countries. A lead section that is over-specific to one country should be avoided IMO. If that makes the lead section rather short and basic, requiring details to be moved lower down, that seems fine to me. The main premise of processed cheese really isn't complicated. (The details can vary widely, for those who want to read the sections lower down, which might get quite long.)

If a certain topic only applied to one country anyway, to me that would be a different story. But processed cheese is made and sold in many countries, and of course all have their own regulations for it. TooManyFingers (talk) 17:42, 1 February 2024 (UTC)

Added note: Some countries make and use much more processed cheese than others. Unavoidably this article will continue to have some kind of slant towards those countries, and I don't argue with that. Just don't reduce it to one country. :) TooManyFingers (talk) 17:57, 1 February 2024 (UTC)

Agreed. Regulations vary from country to country, so taking any one country's legal requirements as defining is too narrow of a focus. If it were a product that could only be made in one country, like Scotch whisky can only be made in Scotland, then defining the product in terms of those regulations makes sense. But processed cheese isn't one of those products.

And even where a product may not meet strict labeling requirements doesn't mean it's not in the general conceptual category. Kraft Singles as currently made include milk protein concentrate, the protein from non-fat skimmed milk which have been separated from the carbohydrates by ultra-fine filtering, which wasn't yet available when the regulations were written. Does including milk components really make them not a processed cheese as commonly understood? I'd say no. (Of course, I don't particularly like Kraft Singles. I prefer Land O Lakes' deli-sliced American. And if I get Kraft, it's their Deli Deluxe which is better.) oknazevad (talk) 18:10, 1 February 2024 (UTC)

@Oknazevad: makes sense. I do still want to improve on two fronts:

• The lead section mentions "vegetable oil". As far as I know, Kraft Singles doesn't use it, but some other US-unregulated and international products probably do. Should we keep that in?
• The legal definitions section says means that some products made in this way cannot legally be labeled as cheese in many countries, even though similar products containing a higher percentage of cheese can be, but only shows the distinction under US regs. We should add some more example legal standards.

Artoria2e5 🌉 04:42, 3 February 2024 (UTC)

To the first, yeah. When it comes to processed American cheese on the market, there's basically three tiers. The top tier contains the highest percentage of traditional cheese, and is typically sold as either blocks (sliced by the store's deli counter) or packages of not-individually-wrapped slices, like the Kraft Deli Deluxe I mentioned. The second tier are the individually wrapped singles, which have less natural cheese in them, but are still all dairy. The bottom tier are the ones containing vegetable oil as a filler because it's cheaper than milk fat. Those are actually regulated as cheese sauce (which is how Velveeta is advertised) because of their meltability, even when sold as individually wrapped slices. They do belong, I would say. But they're also not all that common. The second tier singles are much more typical because they're still so inexpensive that unless one is specifically looking for a product to make a cheese sauce the cost savings on the consumer's end is negligible.

I also agree that we should include info on regulations on other countries, because the article shouldn't be too US-centric. oknazevad (talk) 14:10, 3 February 2024 (UTC)

Louiemantia I'm afraid Cheese Whiz falls into the "not legally processed cheese" hole in the discussion. --Artoria2e5 🌉 06:29, 19 May 2024 (UTC)

I agree with those who state we shouldn’t conform to US regulation on the definition of cheese. Colloquially, processed cheese includes things like Cheez Whiz and Velveeta. People refer to these as “cheese” in the same way that “nacho cheese” would qualify.

This is not a US-specific page, nor is it about the legal definition of what constitutes cheese or processed cheese. If someone wants to write about that, I think that’s fine. But this article should cover the breadth of what “processed cheese” encompasses, because it is often used as a catchall term for anything that is not allowed to be called “real” cheese.

If it contains real cheese to produce it, I don’t think it matters how much milk or other ingredients are added. People call these things “processed cheese” and that’s what this article is about. Louie Mantia (talk) 06:37, 19 May 2024 (UTC)

I would like to add I don’t think this page should at all be constrained to government-regulated definitions of what processed cheese can and can’t be. It’s not just about the US.

No government decides what people are allowed to call this stuff. They can only restrict what companies label them as. That restriction does not apply to this article. Louie Mantia (talk) 06:40, 19 May 2024 (UTC)

Non-US regs

I am going to dump some cheese links here.

• Codex Alimentarius: 1978 standard; 2015 draft standard. These are two very different standards. The 2015 draft mentions a lack of consensus on minimum cheese content, other than that it's the "single largest ingredient".
• European Union: I only see a 2018 hygiene guide. There are a bunch of regulations about what can be added to processed cheese. I should probably be looking through eur-lex instead of the whole europa.eu website.
  • EC Reg 1169/2011 Art 19.1.(d) allows bare-bones processed cheese to be exempt from ingredient listing. The vast majority of results are about trade and taxes and (yawn) --Artoria2e5 🌉 14:57, 7 February 2024 (UTC)
• Australia: Standard 2.5.4 defines... a limit on tall oil phytosterol esters, what? I dunno, here's the search query; there are a couple more to check through.
• doi:10.1016/B978-0-12-821445-9.00004-2 looks juicy, but is inaccessible to me for now. I will ask around.
• The europa.eu site has a surprising amount of Kenyan standards on cheese, including processed cheese. It also has a Russian standard.

--Artoria2e5 🌉 14:43, 7 February 2024 (UTC)

Got the doi. It's quite good, working through it. --Artoria2e5 🌉 06:45, 8 February 2024 (UTC)

Looks like I forgot about this thing again. I'll see if I can finish the job this time. Artoria2e5 🌉 06:36, 19 May 2024 (UTC)

Emulsifier

The emulsifying agents in processed cheese are not traditional "emulsifiers" that help mix water and oil; they are more commonly salts of acids that, through some other magick, stop cheese from separating when melted. We should describe how they actually work and make the whole thing a lot less mysterious.

Emulsion#Emulsifiers has a footnote that says:

John R. Sevenich (1993-11-08). Quote: 'Sodium phosphates are not emulsifiers in the strict sense, i.e. they are not surface-active substances, yet they are commonly included in the group of ingredients called "emulsifying agents". (See Caric et al., Food Microstructure, Vol. 4, pgs. 297-312 (1985).' US patent № 5,466,477 — Preparation of process cheese using liquid sodium phosphate

As far as I can tell, the common thing about all these acids is that they are effective chelators of calcium. This hunch is confirmed by PMID 36903331 and https://www.cheeseprofessor.com/blog/sodium-citrate-cheese-sauce. Artoria2e5 🌉 12:31, 2 November 2023 (UTC)