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I believe it would be appropriate for this biography to cite the Pope's statement on Evolution. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 72.209.13.36 (talk) 02:22, 4 February 2009 (UTC)
First Draft:
On 22 October 1996, in a speech to the Pontifical Academy of Sciences plenary session at the Vatican, Pope John Paul II declared the evolutionary theories of Charles Darwin as factual, and wholly compatible with the teachings of the Roman Catholic Church.[1][2]
The pope said “If taken literally, the Biblical view of the beginning of life and Darwin's scientific view would seem irreconcilable. In Genesis, the creation of the world, and Adam, the first human, took six days. Evolution's process of genetic mutation and natural selection-the survival and proliferation of the fittest new species-has taken billions of years, according to scientists ...”[1]
Although accepting the theory of evolution, John Paul II made one major exception - the human soul. “If the human body has its origin in living material which pre-exists it, the spiritual soul is immediately created by God”[1]
There already appears to be a Peer Review currently taking place on this article. Please see: Wikipedia:Peer review/Pope John Paul II/archive2 -- Marek.69 talk 00:52, 21 January 2009 (UTC)
In response to comments in Peer Review, I have modified the layout, moving the 'Death and Funeral' section to the end of the article. Hopefully, it is in more of a logical order now.
I've already made many changes already from the many useful suggestions. I will continue to try and address the remaining issues. Marek.69 talk 03:35, 7 February 2009 (UTC)
Some of you which are more familiar with the subject may want to look at this edit --DFS454 (talk) 15:54, 7 February 2009 (UTC)
Statement regarding the infallibility of the papal encyclicals at the end of the "teachings" section deleetd since it is (a) inconsistent with the offical Catholic definition of infallibility (which has to be invoked "ex cathedra," a process that does not apply to encyclicals) and (b) is not supported by the reference cited. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 138.29.82.6 (talk) 21:31, 3 April 2009 (UTC)
In the early life section it says : That month, Wojtyła personally aided a 14-year-old Jewish refugee girl named Edith Zierer[40] who had run away from a Nazi labour camp in Częstochowa.[40] After her collapse on a railway platform, Wojtyła personally carried her to a train and accompanied her safely to Kraków. Zierer credits Wojtyła for saving her life that day.[41][42][43] B'nai B'rith and other authorities have said that Karol helped protect many other Polish Jews from the Nazis.
Is he counted as Righteous Among The Nations?
—Preceding unsigned comment added by Labodeng (talk • contribs) 17:01, 20 February 2009 (UTC)
I was wondering if we could reach a consensus on verb usage in the lead paragraph. Of course, his past actions should be in the past (i.e. visited many countries), but praise/discussion/etc. is still ongoing. Perhaps that should be in the present tense? i.e.
Can-Dutch (talk) 19:07, 12 March 2009 (UTC)
What the point of all links to copyright (©) every where it possible? The article is already too (!) long (loading ~ around several seconds) and need to avoid excessive decoratings like this. — Al3xil ✉ 18:36, 24 April 2009 (UTC)
(outdent) The reorganizations were plausible and in good faith. But as consensus does not exist for their action, per bold, revert, discuss let's reset and talk out how to do this best. Baccyak4H (Yak!) 13:54, 19 May 2009 (UTC)
Regarding this (profusely referenced) phrase in the lede:
I would propose removing the "It is widely agreed that" from the beginning, for two reasons. First, it reads poorly, almost weaselly. Second, strict statements of opinion may be stated as fact if there is no significant disagreement (IIRC, I looked quickly at WP:NPOV but couldn't find the relevant guidance). That may be the case for the content here.
I acknowledge of course that this proposal is quite aggressive and NPOV is sacrosanct, but a distaste for such wordings in general makes me think it has some merit. Comments? Baccyak4H (Yak!) 14:37, 20 August 2009 (UTC)
How banal, commonplace, inane, PC, trivial, uninteresting. JP2 was one of the great leaders of the 20th century, period. Who cares about what some hippies think of him. --Fertuno (talk) 12:57, 21 May 2009 (UTC)
This is not a forum. None of this actually relates to the article. Spartan S58 (talk) —Preceding undated comment added 14:59, 29 September 2009 (UTC).
The site claims to have no affiliations with any organization but is registered by Allen Buresz of Natural Health L.P. in Virginia. Checking the Virginia company records online, no such limited partnership has been registered as active. Consequently the registration is suspect with apparently false information. The site appears to be another rambling self-published and self-promotional site with no claim as to status or validity. It does not meet the guidance for wp:reliable sources and should not be used as a source, ever, by anyone.—Ash (talk) 08:41, 10 September 2009 (UTC)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Beatification_and_Canonisation_of_Pope_John_Paul_II
Read my post there, because I don't think anyone actually goes to that page. So I'm bringing it up here. Spartan S58 (talk) 14:55, 29 September 2009 (UTC)
Under "Criticism", the Pope is said to have been "waving a soft hand on" certain groups. This is simply not an English idiom, and has no acknowledged or understood meaning. Does it mean "not controlling them at all, and letting them do what they want"? "Controlling them, but very leniently"? "Waving them away as if to disagree with them, but not firmly"? These are three separate ideas, and the phrase could mean any of three. Does anyone know which of the three is meant, or is it something else? --NellieBly (talk) 23:15, 29 October 2009 (UTC)..
This American site: [Fox] tells that John Paul II Step Closer to Possible Beatification.Agre22 (talk) 16:13, 19 December 2009 (UTC)agre22
I removed the tag despite being >100kb, because the article is already a summary and has links to main articles for its sections. The actual article text is not even that extreme long but much stems from footnotes.--Kmhkmh (talk) 17:52, 28 December 2009 (UTC)
the statements made in this section are provocative (catholic hierarchy apologizes for burning witches) but provides no sources/ citations.Peppermintschnapps (talk) 03:20, 10 February 2010 (UTC)
it is sufficient to say JPII apologised to victims of inquisition & crusaders. KEEP IT NEUTRAL - LANGUAGE LIKE "SLAUGHTER OF MUSLIMS" IS NOT NEUTRAL SO CUT IT OUT YOU DRONE, WHO EVER YOU ARE... I HAVE ALREADY CHANGED THIS THREE TIMES, ONLY TO HAVE IT UNDONE.—Preceding unsigned comment added by 110.32.64.211 (talk) 13:44, 2 January 2010 (UTC)
The quotation in the evolution section attributed to JPII and starting with the phrase "If taken literally..." is false. Check the citation link and try finding that quote there. The quote was actually from a Chicago Tribune reporter's article here: http://articles.chicagotribune.com/1996-10-25/news/9610250130_1_humani-generis-evolution-theory and was in no way the words of JPII —Preceding unsigned comment added by 75.23.71.42 (talk) 04:58, 25 June 2010 (UTC)
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(help)"Scholars of Canon Law say that there is no official process for declaring a pope "Great"; the title simply establishes itself through popular and continued usage." That is true not only of the Papacy, but also of other offices of which some holders have been called "the Great," such as King of Macedon. (King Alexander III is Alexander the Great.) Czar John III is Ivan the Great. ("Ivan" is Russian for "John.") Both were called "the Great" as more or less a colloquialism. Could this general fact be mentioned in parentheses after where I just quoted? The Mysterious El Willstro (talk) 07:41, 21 February 2010 (UTC)
The other Papal bio articles use Pope & reigned (not Supreme Pontiff & served) in their intros. This article's intro shouldn't be different. GoodDay (talk) 17:09, 14 March 2010 (UTC)
Why doesn't Wikipedia just say he "was" pope and avoid the argument between "reigned" and "served?" I started to look at Wikipedia's long list of popes and got up to the 400's (there were zillions of them, they kept getting killed) and the verb consistently used is "was." "Reigned" is a loaded word and to apply it to an elected religious leader obviously demonstrates a bias against religion. Per Wikipedia, this is what he "reigned" over:
"Vatican City has a reasonably well developed transport network considering its size (consisting mostly of a plaza and walkways). As a country that is 1.05 kilometres (0.6 mi) long and 0.85 kilometres (0.5 mi) wide,[45] it has a small transportation system with no airports or highways."
Most people walk farther than that on their lunch hour.
This is who he "reigned" over:
"a population of just over 800.[5][13]"
"Unlike citizenship of other states, which is based either on jus sanguinis (birth from a citizen, even outside the state's territory) or on jus soli (birth within the territory of the state), citizenship of Vatican City is granted jus officii, namely on the grounds of appointment to work in a certain capacity in the service of the Holy See. It usually ceases upon cessation of the appointment. Citizenship is extended also to the spouse, parents and descendants of a citizen, provided they are living with the person who is a citizen.[41][42]" All of the above per http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vatican_City.
So he "reigned" over some of the people he hired. Well, a lot of people may feel that way about their boss, but they, like the "citizens" of this supposed "monarchy" can just quit. That anyone would debate whether the use of "reigned" here demonstrates bias is kidding themselves. "Was" is accurate, neutral and has been used previously. 71.14.179.169 (talk) 19:47, 5 October 2010 (UTC)Iful (talk) 20:06, 5 October 2010 (UTC)
I don't see any evidence that he spoke Esperanto in the source (15) used. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 125.242.13.162 (talk) 05:55, 26 August 2010 (UTC)
John Paul's name in Latin, Italian and other official languages of the Holy See should be mentioned before the Polish name, both because they come before Polish alphabetically and because Polish is not a primary language of the Holy See. The fact that the former Pope was born in Poland is really less relevant in this regard because the Pope is an international figure. The official and main administrative languages of the Holy See are Latin, Italian, French, German, English, Portuguese and Spanish. Polish clerics working in Rome generally use German, Italian and French because Polish is not widely spoken outside Poland. Jeannedeba (talk) 14:20, 11 April 2010 (UTC)
=Polish clerics working in Rome generally use German, Italian and French because Polish is not widely spoken outside Poland. - just read what you have written. Polish clerics in Rome speak German, I bet they are very lucky in groceries, taxis, churches and anywhere else. I live in New York, should I speak Burmese ? Or maybe Italian ? Main point - Polish name should be first, or third after Latin and Italian. 32.167.246.104 (talk) 14:52, 26 April 2010 (UTC)
I can't figure out why there is a [sic] notice in the quote at section election to the Papacy. There doesn't seem to be any kind of error in the speech. The article text tells me he delivered the speech in a different language, so am I supposed to take from that that he made an error when he delivered it in the different language? It's confusing. --bodnotbod (talk) 10:31, 17 September 2010 (UTC)
The above named category is currently being considered for speedy deletion because it is empty. The only article which I can think of which might be included in it is this one, and I am virtually certain that this article was, at some point, included in that category. Can anyone tell me why that category was removed? I myself dislike these particularly small categories, but think that the consensus is that they are acceptable, and that this category would be acceptable if this article were included in it. John Carter (talk) 18:43, 24 October 2010 (UTC)
I remember, that when he visited Estonia, he made up his speech in Estonian by himself. He took special lessons in Estonian, before visiting this country. Unfortunately this reference is in Estonian. 78.28.98.237 (talk) 02:20, 17 January 2011 (UTC)
The result of the move request was: Page not moved. NW (Talk) 03:27, 23 January 2011 (UTC)
Pope John Paul II → Blessed John Paul II — The page should be renamed because Pope Benedict XVI beatified him so his name changes to Bl. Pope John Paul the public ceremony is May 1, 2011 but according to the catholic church he is given the title blessed immediately. I have to request the move here because it is move protected..--Etineskid (talk) 17:43, 17 January 2011 (UTC)
He is not officially considered blessed until the official beatification ceremony on May 1. Even Rome Reports and other news agencies call him "future blessed" because he is not yet considered blessed until he is officially beatified. 112.210.144.165 (talk) 11:17, 18 January 2011 (UTC)
You also disagree with Vatican Radio which mentions "the upcoming beatification of Pope John Paul II scheduled for May 1st 2011."
Read the entire article here: http://www.radiovaticana.org/EN1/Articolo.asp?c=454138
Pretty sure that the folks at the Vatican's official radio station are a bit more "in the know" than this unnamed, uncited "Catholic Priest" you spoke with. Mtminchi08 (talk) 02:11, 27 January 2011 (UTC)
Also per WP:RS "Wikipedia articles should be based on reliable, published sources." We can't go by what someone tells us, it has to be published in a reliable source. Mtminchi08 (talk) 02:19, 27 January 2011 (UTC)
If you look at the article on Beatification, you'll see that the title of "Blessed" is bestowed AFTER the person has been beatified. So we cannot call him Blessed John Paul II until he has been beatified on May 1. This article http://www.ewtn.com/JohnPaul2/cause/process.asp also agrees with the previous sentence. 112.210.241.195 (talk) 08:26, 27 January 2011 (UTC)
I understand where you are coming from, but I think we should at least have a redirect from "Blessed John Paul II" and "Bl. John Paul II" to help some people find it. I know I can do this but I don't want to anger others. So if people could leave their thoughts I'll check back in a week and I'll do the redirects I was thinking of if there is a consensus of support. Make sure you give reasons why you support or oppose please. Thanks, Etineskid (talk) 03:02, 31 January 2011 (UTC)
The Holy See has an official YouTube channel for the Beatification of Pope John Paul II. Should this be added to the External Links section? It can be found here: http://www.youtube.com/user/GiovanniPaoloII and a CNN story about the channel is here: http://religion.blogs.cnn.com/2011/03/15/vatican-announces-facebook-youtube-pages-for-john-paul-ii/?iref=allsearch
Mtminchi08 (talk) 02:01, 30 March 2011 (UTC)
The third paragraph of the introduction says that he "spoke" thirteen languages. The source provided, however, says that "He was fluent in ten languages -- Polish, Latin, Italian, French, German, English, Spanish, Croatian, Portuguese, and Russian," and does not mention Esperanto, Ukrainian, or Ancient Greek at all. In addition, the only references I could find which connecting the Pope to Esperanto had him giving short, prepared speeches in the language. Although in a literal sense he did "speak" these languages, he was not conversational in them; they belong on a much longer list of languages he occasionally used to address a crowd. If I've missed something and he was fluent in other languages, those should be sourced. --Anschelsc (talk) 18:03, 22 April 2011 (UTC)
Agree - But he as a Theologian did know Ancient Greek (Koine Greek). --Smart30 (talk) 13:17, 1 May 2011 (UTC)
Please add extended info on the beatification ceremony not just to this page, but here: Beatification and canonisation of Pope John Paul II#Ceremony. Thanks! - Yk (talk | contrib) 16:46, 30 April 2011 (UTC)
Please change the beginning paragraph to "Pope John Paul II [...] known as Blessed John Paul since his Beatification on May 1, 2011 [...] so as to conform with the style used on the page for Blessed John XXIII. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.61.189.124 (talk) 14:12, 1 May 2011 (UTC)
Please update footnote no. 33 (retreived on 2011-01-14) with more recent references published during or after the beatification such as http://www.romereports.com/palio/John-Paul-II-is-officially-beatified-english-4027.html , http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-13251415 , or http://religion.blogs.cnn.com/2011/05/01/pope-john-paul-ii-declared-blessed-before-huge-crowds/. Thank you Wikigreg1978 (talk) 07:03, 2 May 2011 (UTC) Greg
Hi Anonymous Poster with IP 204.65.34.246, thank you for your comment wherein in you agree with me to update the references to footnote no. 33 and you suggest that we use BBC as I have proposed. Please note that the two other links can also be used as objective references as they do not appear to be mere personal blogs considering that one reference is from the romereports.com and the other one is from cnn.com (i.e., the second one appears to have been posted by CNN editors although the hyperlink is "religion dot blogs" dot cnn dot com. Thank you. Wikigreg1978 (talk) 11:34, 24 May 2011 (UTC) Greg
Where should I put this? In the Pop culture or bibliography sec?
"In 1984 Jazz singer Sarah Vaughan recorded an album of poetry written by John Paul II, translated from Polish by Gene Lees. The album was released as The Planet Is Alive...Let it Live!, and accompanied by a television special." Gareth E Kegg (talk) 23:32, 4 May 2011 (UTC)
Shouldn't the word blessed be excluded from the lead per WP:HONORIFIC? -- Mufka (u) (t) (c) 22:23, 1 May 2011 (UTC)
There is a crazy number of citations in the lead - up to six for each short statement! If the information in the lead is contained and sourced in the article itself, there is no reason to have any citations in the lead. In any event, no fact needs more than one citation except in the rare event that it is a complex statement where no one source contains all the information. Scolaire (talk) 12:06, 28 July 2011 (UTC)
One passage in the first paragraph states that John Paul II "reigned as Pope of the Catholic Church and Sovereign of The Holy See from 16 October 1978 until his death."
The Holy See, as the wikipedia article on it explains, is the episcopal jurisdiction of the Catholic Church in Rome. As such, it is not the same thing as "Vatican City", which is an independent state with the pope as its ruler.
It's academically sloppy and embarrassingly imprecise to call the pope "Sovereign of the Holy See." As pope, he is the bishop of the Holy See, and also the sovereign of Vatican City.
To conflate or confuse the Holy See with Vatican City is inaccurate, as is conflating the pope's role as bishop of Rome with his job as monarch/ruler of the smallest state in the world.
Clearly the sentence in the intro means to refer to Vatican City, not just because of the word "sovereign" which is not an ecclesiastical term, but more obviously because the link itself leads to the page on Vatican City, not the page on the Holy See.
Thus the words themselves should be changed to "Vatican City". I made this edit earlier this year, not anticipating that I would have to explain a distinction that wikipedia itself already overtly acknowledges.
65.24.115.90 (talk) 11:56, 3 August 2011 (UTC)
UPDATE: Also, I just noticed that the article on Pope Benedict XVI does indeed refer to him as "Sovereign of Vatican City State." So for consistency's sake as well, it made no sense to call John Paul II "Sovereign of the Holy See."
65.24.115.90 (talk) 12:24, 3 August 2011 (UTC)
Hello. Could someone write that there is Jono Pauliaus II aikštė (square) in Vilnius, in front of http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/St._Peter_and_St._Paul%27s_Church,_Vilnius after Pope's visit in Lithuania. Also, there is Jono Pauliaus II gimnazija (gymnasium) in western Vilnius (http://lt.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vilniaus_Jono_Pauliaus_II_gimnazija) and elementary school http://lt.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vilniaus_Jono_Pauliaus_II_pagrindin%C4%97_mokykla --86.100.205.18 (talk) 18:00, 20 August 2011 (UTC)
From Murder in the Vatican: The Revolutionary Life of John Paul and the CIA, Opus Dei and the 1978 Murders by Lucien Gregoire, Publisher AuthorHouse, 2008 ISBN 1434387232, 9781434387233, page 103, read about it here
Karol progressed from a laborer in a quarry to distribution supervisor of a chemical plant IG Farben had built adjacent to the Auschwitz concentration camp five miles from where he lived in Wadowice. The plant produced chemicals used to gas prisoners. In his job as distribution supervisor, Karol traveled to Treblinka and other camps. The movie The Man Who Would Be Pope starring John Voight correctly depicts Karol's role as supervisor of his chemical supply depot. A resistance leader solicits Karol to divert supplies to the resistance; Karol refuses.
Similar, from Truth Seeker: Do You Belong to the Bride Or the Whore? by X Asiah X Publisher AuthorHouse, 2009 ISBN 1438949278, 9781438949277 page 47 read more about it here
One of their icons, Karol Josef Woytyla who was known as Pope John Paul II, was involved in the extinction of the Jewish people during the Holocaust He sold cyanide and Zyklon B to Hitler, as during the time of the invasion of Poland. Pope John was a salesman for I.G.Farben Industrie AG Chemical Plant.
--71.178.110.141 (talk) 17:11, 11 September 2011 (UTC)
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Sorry am I just imagining things or has that been seriously eroded over the years? I know there's a separate article but surely a better summary that what's currently there is more appropriate? If that issue was the most important within the church then sure it should stay but in the big scheme of things birth control and the abuse scandal are much more significant criticisms of him with the latter's exclusion/removal I find truly astounding. Jurrut (talk) 14:23, 26 December 2011 (UTC)
I have found:
"accusing the visiting Spanish King Juan Carlos of murdering his older brother Alfonso in 1956"
I suggest it be changed to:
"accusing the visiting Spanish King Juan Carlos of murdering his (Juan Carlos') younger brother Alfonso in 1956"
The changes are:
Change "older" to "younger" (Wikipedia does have an article about Alfonso, brother of Juan Carlos).
Insert "(Juan Carlos')" to make it clearer who "his" refers to". — Preceding unsigned comment added by 128.63.16.82 (talk) 22:42, 19 January 2012 (UTC)
I have gone over to the "regnal name" entry on Wikipedia and created, in the talk page, a new section about 2-word regnal names. Besides the 4 people mentioned in the section you are reading, I have included Louis Philippe, French king. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 128.63.16.82 (talk) 16:52, 25 January 2012 (UTC)
It would be good to get this article to featured status. For anyone who would like to help, there is a Peer review page here. -- Marek.69 talk 19:58, 21 January 2012 (UTC)
This peer review discussion has been closed.
I've listed this article for peer review because I think it could be an FA. I am prepared to put in the work to achieve this, but any help would be most welcome :-) -- Marek.69 talk 02:19, 21 January 2012 (UTC)
Comment I've done a run through and made a few tweaks, hope you like them, if not it's a wiki. I spotted a certain amount of overlinking and linking to generic words and events rather than specific articles - see constantinople. ϢereSpielChequers 10:33, 21 January 2012 (UTC)
I'm afraid that I don't really have time to do an in-depth peer reviews at the moment. I'm trying to keep too much of a backlog from developing at Wikipedia:Copyright problems, and there are a couple of days worth of listing I'm already behind. I do notice one issue at a glance: the article uses {{cquote}}. This is not supported for the body of articles by the Manual of Style. It's too flashy. To quote from WP:MOSQUOTE:
Format a long quote (more than about 40 words or a few hundred characters, or consisting of more than one paragraph, regardless of length) as a block quotation, which Wikimedia's software will indent from both margins. Do not enclose block quotations in quotation marks (and especially avoid decorative quotation marks in normal use, such as those provided by the {{cquote}} template, which are reserved for pull quotes). Block quotations using a colored background are also discouraged. Block quotations can be enclosed between a pair of
<blockquote>...</blockquote>
HTML tags; or use {{quote}}.
The quotes shouldn't be formatted in italics, either, unless the originals were. See also Wikipedia:Manual of Style#Italics. --Moonriddengirl (talk) 13:03, 23 January 2012 (UTC)
First, my apologies for what there is to follow. But I do not like this article. Not at all.
Good News: This article does get the basic facts about his birth date, papacy period, etc. right.
Bad News: The article seems mostly unaware of what the man did, and what his goals were. That shortcoming is epitomized by the lack of any serious content in the teachings section. That section is specially uninformed. Again, my apologies for using the term uninformed, but there is no other term that would apply here. There is a link to his "Social and political stances" but that is not really the center of his teachings which can only be traced through the encyclical and apostolic exhortations he issued. As a clue, consider the fact that the word "encyclical" only appears once in the article, referring to Humanae Vitae which he did not issue himself. The only apostolic letter mentioned seems to be Ordinatio Sacerdotalis which is more political than theological. Items such as Ecclesia de Eucharistia, Reconciliatio et Paenitentia and Redemptoris Mater, etc. were key elements of his plan to "reposition the Catholic Church". That plan was in effect for over two decades and mostly succeeded. I could go on and on and on about what is missing... But I think it is clear that only a very small fraction of his teachings or goals or influences are mentioned anywhere. And sorry, I will not have time to work on that any time soon.
Image: The article does not mention his high level of popularity among masses around the world. He was far more popular than the previous popes, or the current pontif. In places such as Mexico he was deeply loved for declaring Juan Diego a saint. The same was true in the Philippines, etc.
Photographs: The selection of photographs is quite unusual and non-representative. For instance, there are 3 photographs in which our previous commander in chief appears. His attitude would have been better represented by this photograph. There are probably public domain versions of that, without the caption, if you want to find one and add it... would be fun to see the reactions.
Overall, a very long and almost unreadable article that gets the dates right, then gets lost in the political issues, relationship with the Eastern Orthodox, etc. and misses the key goal of his papacy which was to transform and reposition the Church. A goal that mostly succeeded. History2007 (talk) 03:39, 24 January 2012 (UTC)
I am half joking, but after thinking about it a little more, based on John's comment above (what will be his lasting significance really?), I think a move request may be in order. I would suggest a move to "Prime Minister John Paul II" instead of "Pope John Paul II", for this article is written about a politician, not a pope. The first focus of a pope is "his flock" not relations with Islam, Eastern Orthodox etc. Look at how much space is given to those, vs how much space is given to his relationship with his own crowd and their "spiritual direction". This article seems to view him as "Prime Minister John Paul II of the Republic of Earth".
And again, the selection of images reflects that mindset. A photo with ex-KGB Mr Putin, and as I said 3 photos of Einstein give the wrong impression. The icing on the cake was that the photo of his beatification featured Benedict! I touched up the two photos to show that he was beatified on the very feast for which he worked very hard for from 1965 to 1978. And John, one of his lasting impacts is that said feast/devotion (which was previously banned) now has over 100 million followers. That is called impact. To that end, I also added an image of how the Mexicans donated the keys for his statue. Those items focus on a "pope", not on a prime minister. But the article seems to be mostly unaware of the papal side of his life and just a restatement of news reports.
I am sorry Marek, but I do not see how a band-aid or two could fix this article. The heart of it is based on a perception as a political figure - hence the move request suggestion. As I read the article I do not see an awareness of his role as a "spiritual leader", but I see a collage of newspaper clippings which mostly cover prime ministers and other dignitaries in three piece suits. He was not wearing a suit and a tie, in case that was not noticed. History2007 (talk) 15:25, 25 January 2012 (UTC)
Marek, I think you've done a commendable job of tackling a huge, meaty article with all kinds of competing agendas and turning it into something coherent and readable. I have just a few minor questions/suggestions:
I also have to say that I strongly disagree with the above critique of the article's nature and scope. Wikipedia is not an encyclopedia of Catholicism, so I wouldn't expect to find detailed exploration of his teachings and other doctrinal nuance here – though I would expect good references to set me off in that direction of research if I so desired, of course :) Wikipedia is also meant to serve a global audience of readers, and I think the most cosmopolitan interpretation of the life of John Paul II is the one found here: a man who was at the forefront of many important political events, who put himself in the global spotlight by both his faith and his actions, and whose legacy far exceeds ecclesiastical bounds.
Anyway, thanks for all your hard work, Marek, and good luck with the rest of the peer review process! Accedietalk to me 05:26, 26 January 2012 (UTC)
Sorry, I got completely distracted reading list of popes...I'll come up with something soon. Casliber (talk · contribs) 09:21, 26 January 2012 (UTC)
I'm only going to comment on the references for now, because I think that's the most immediate issue. From a cursory look through the references, I found over thirty "sources" that I wouldn't let anywhere near an article I was planning to take to FAC.
Add to that the article cites a great many sources that were written by the subject himself or by the Vatican, that many more references are lacking basic bibliographic information, and that others still are not of the quality I would expect for what's cited to them. This article has got a long way to go before it's even worth putting significant effort into the body. Sorry. HJ Mitchell | Penny for your thoughts? 09:03, 27 January 2012 (UTC)
"Baziak died in June 1962 and on 16 July he was selected..." - presumably this means that Wojtyła was selected. The two sources given at the end of this sentence do not seem to mention it. -- John of Reading (talk) 15:19, 30 January 2012 (UTC)
"Today, for the first time in history, a Bishop of Rome sets foot on English soil" - this paragraph looks out of place. -- John of Reading (talk) 15:19, 30 January 2012 (UTC)
<blockquote>...</blockquote>
format. Maybe it should be within quotation marks? The section previously looked like this, before the recent changes of style. -- Marek.69 talk 15:51, 30 January 2012 (UTC)
I see User:Alarbus has been changing the citation style to the dreaded sfn system, presumably without discussion. This is contrary to WP:CITE and should be nipped in the bud. Johnbod (talk) 16:17, 28 January 2012 (UTC)
The quotes attributed to the Pope are from a self-published website, but, these quotes are circulated among the followers of Medjugorje, which is why I referenced the website.
Medjugorje is becoming a big issue in the Catholic Church, so I thought Medjugorje should be included in the article.
The Biography of Pope John Paul II article is the only article on Wikipedia that specifies in its title that it is a biography. The reason that there are no others is that articles that are named after people are themselves biographies. The "Biography" section title in the Pope John Paul II article is therefore redundant; the entire article is a biography. The Biography of Pope John Paul II article should be merged here and the subsections of the "Biography" section should be upgraded to first-level sections. Neelix (talk) 20:46, 9 May 2012 (UTC)
Croatian writer Giancarlo Kravar: "Justice without forgiveness utopia," said the Holy Father Pope John Paul II. after the terrorist attacks of Al` Qaeda 11th September 2011. year. So simple and so universal. Words to resolve world conflicts, and especially for their prevention.93.137.33.90 (talk) 00:11, 20 May 2012 (UTC)
New text added today contains some highly charged language: "indifferentism to false cults" - the use of "false cults" in the quote may be acceptable, but using such a phrase in Wikipedia's voice is prohibited. Let's find a more neutral way to phrase this assertion. Elizium23 (talk) 09:09, 9 June 2012 (UTC)
I am curious about the use of the {{Infobox saint}} field "name". The documentation says simply, The name under which the saint is venerated or best known. This should usually be the same as the article name. However, the vast majority of articles that I surveyed under WP:SAINTS use the honorific "Saint" in front of the name - which seems clear enough, as the name under which they are venerated includes the title. So I ask why we do not list his name as "Blessed John Paul II", and if there is any, er, excuse for divergence from consensus in this article, and also the other articles I came across where it is not observed, namely Pope John XXIII and Joan of Arc. Elizium23 (talk) 09:21, 9 June 2012 (UTC)
Echoing Elizium's point regarding the inconsistency regarding "Blessed" being included for John XXIII but not for JPII. Please correct this. 69.133.14.159 (talk) 00:20, 17 October 2012 (UTC)
Here let us discuss how John Paul the Great relates to the Jimmy Savile papal knighthood and sexual abuse scandal. First, I reworded a sentence which clearly violated WP:NPOV and WP:V as the cited source did not support the assertion. Then I removed the entire addition, because none of the sources mentioned John Paul the Great by name. However, since this is a Papal Honour accorded by the Holy See, it is possible that John Paul the Great had a personal involvement with conferring it. If so, please produce a reliable secondary source that links JP the Great and Savile, and you are welcome to add the information to the article, as long as it adheres to policies such as WP:NPOV and WP:DUE. Thank you! Elizium23 (talk) 20:34, 2 November 2012 (UTC)
Upon becoming a cardinal, Bernard Law was made titular pastor of the parish of St. Mary Major. All cardinals must be priests of Rome, but in modern times, they are typically archbishops; so they are given Roman parishes to be priests of, and return to their archdiocese. Meanwhile a vicar carries on the administration of the Roman parish. When Law resigned from archbishop in fine health and well short of retirement age, he assumed the role normally designated to a vicar. This was widely reported as him being "promoted" to a high-ranking job in Rome, while the reality he assumed work normally done by low-ranking underlings because he no longer had a more pressing duty. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 198.228.200.159 (talk) 04:48, 14 January 2013 (UTC)
The article indicates that Pope John Paul II "pressured" Juliusz Paetz, the Catholic Archbishop of Poznań, to resign. This requires explanation. Under canon law, the Pope possesses supreme and absolute authority over the church, which he may exercise freely and at any time. Why would he have to resort to "pressure" to fire an Archbishop?John Paul Parks (talk) 14:56, 5 February 2013 (UTC)
On the right of chapter "Criticism and controversy" there is photo of Aloysius Stepinac. To my opinion one sentence is controversal: "Critics say that Stepinac was pro-Ustaše, tolerating the mass killings of Orthodox Serbs in Jasenovac and their forced conversion to Catholicism." Critics say that but Aloysius Stepinac didn't do that. He helped Ortodox Serbs during war and he gave many speech against Ustaše regime. He didn't forced anybody to convert to Catholicism. He was one of the most moral persons of his time not only in Yougoslavia and he truly deserved beatification. Decision of Pope John Paul II to confirm his beatification was good decision and controversy is only in minds of some people who are unhappy with that because of they have different political and cultural background.--Fraxinus Croat (talk) 21:40, 14 February 2013 (UTC)
"...In accordance with the philosophies inspiring them, consider the mind as emerging from the forces of living matter, or as a mere epiphenomenon of this matter, are incompatible with the truth about man" (Emphasis added).
Let me start by saying that not all philosophers consider "mind" and "soul" to be the same thing. Descartes did, but his ideas can't be reconciled with neuroscience. They just can't.
Anyway, unlike the Church's doctrine of the soul, the mind is unambiguously shown by neuroscience to be derived from the brain. There is now an entire subfield of cognitive neuroscience, the study of literally how we think and not merely sensation and response. Therefore, the only way to reconcile Catholic theology with neuroscience is to say that soul and mind are most emphatically not the same thing, despite popular assumption. (One can argue, for instance, that soul is identity rather than mind, and that it is only by act of God due to Omnibenevolence that identity can be re-manifested, essentially copied, to some other non-physical medium at physical death.) I will not go into too much more detail, so as not to run afoul of WP:Not a forum.
All that being explained, "soul" is probably a more accurate translation from the original Latin of this Papal statement than "mind." (Both are "Animis" in Latin.) To substitute "mind" in that translated sentence rather than "soul" is to suggest that Blessed John Paul II was essentially banning Catholics from an entire field of science, which is not generally the MO of Popes and the Church. Indeed, from broader context, I find it clear that he was actually talking about the soul rather than the cognitive mind. The Mysterious El Willstro (talk) 03:49, 19 March 2013 (UTC)
The result of the move request was: page not moved. Arbitrarily0 (talk) 00:52, 29 March 2013 (UTC)
Pope John Paul II → John Paul II – New naming convention for Popes agreed upon by consensus at WP:Naming conventions (clergy)#Popes. Primary article should be John Paul II with a redirect from from Pope John Paul II to John Paul II ReformedArsenal (talk) 01:37, 22 March 2013 (UTC)
The article uses an editnotice and a template on the talk page that all establish British English usage. I see no words in the original revision which could be taken to be either American or another variant. Initial discussion on English variant is in April 2005 at Talk:Pope John Paul II/Archive 3#Americanised Spelling... Of Sorts. Another post was made in 2009 at Talk:Pope John Paul II/Archive 7#Spellings. I have seen no compelling case to switch away from British English. Elizium23 (talk) 04:05, 11 July 2013 (UTC)
It would be interesting to write a section about JPII's though and magisterium about the liturgy, and about Sacred Music. I found this article: http://www.crisismagazine.com/2013/how-john-paul-ii-restored-liturgical-sanity --78.12.43.58 (talk) 11:44, 11 July 2013 (UTC)
Dear Sir/Madam
Please consider a change in the text of the subject "Pastoral trips".
In the beginning of the text, where it is said that the Pope was afraid of flying and that when he arrived a country he used to kiss the ground, state that this action was for Pastoral purposes (as was done by Saint Jean-Baptiste-Marie Vianney). I know that this info is already in a section above (when describing his arrival at is first Parish), but I think that it would be important to refer it again here, as the sentence as it is may suggest to some that he kissed the ground as a way to express the relief of landing.
The source of this is of course the section of the article above. And I think the Holy Father talks about this in is book Memory and Identity.
Thank you
Yours faithfully
95.95.104.166 (talk) 03:36, 9 August 2013 (UTC)
It looks like someone decided that this article must be and must remain in pure "British" English.
Is there some kind new approved Wikipedia policy seeking to eliminate unholy mixing of these two races? If not, this silly edit notice should be removed. The subject is not intrinsically related to Britain. There is no other compelling reason to go one way or the other in this article other than "someone nudged it that way once in a way that happened to stick". That is a general reason to stick an article in one form or another, but it's not a reason to try to enforce so strongly. Such strong enforcement is highly unusual for Wikipedia, especially without strong reasons. I suggest that enforcement via this tag and especially by that "nazi-like" edit notice, is actually against Wikipedia policy regarding forms of English.
One of the problems here (among many) is that someone must decide, or have decided, which dialect any particular article should be stamped with. Who is or would be authorized to do that, eh? Honestly, this (the tag and edit notice) looks much more like some kind of British "push back" against Americanificization of English. Look to the true motive of the edit notice. If there really is some new approved policy then it might be okay, but if it's just some British-o-phile administrator with a stick up his backside, or some other kind of rouge effort, then it should be removed.
The tag at the top of the talk page says it shouldn't be removed "without broad consensus", yet such "broad consensus" to place it to begin with is not evident. If it exists, the crazy-short MiszaBot 30-day sweep has hidden it away much less accessibly in an archive. If there really was some "broad consensus" along these lines some time ago, then it should remain visible. Extraordinary tags require extraordinary evidence. Without that evidence, summary removal of the talk-page tag is justified, as is the summary removal of that edit notice by an administrator.
108.7.6.66 (talk) 22:12, 6 September 2013 (UTC)
I'm not seeking to change the dialect of the article, just the tags. It's the implied/attempted enforcement which is problematic here. WP has a policy for determining which of the various forms of English is preferred for an article. But, to attempt to enforce it like this is "highly unusual", and it's not well justified for this particular subject. I would remove the tag myself, but I've been around here long enough to know better for that kind of tag. I would remove the edit notice too (as excessive enforcement), but an admin is needed for that. 108.7.6.66 (talk) 22:58, 6 September 2013 (UTC)
All reasonable arguments. Except, they're "un-wikipedish". All Wikipedia articles are subject to destabilisation. It's something that must be lived with. That's how they improve and that's how parts get worse at the same time. It's tough I know for those personally invested to deal with it. A quality equilibrium evolves with a constantly churning low level of crappiness. Trying to stabilise and zero out all crappiness is a futile mission. It's simply impossible unless the article is totally locked down to a few of "the watchers" (by approved and unapproved means), but then the particular kind of crappiness the watchers can't see never gets addressed (too-close bias).
I think you guys can learn to live with the work of having to smooth out two crappy-increasing edits a month. Every other article does it without oppressive messages. It's just not that hard. It's also just not really that awful to have to deal with and accept a little bit of "offensive" spelling.
One of the problems with the edit note is that it has no expiration date, not even a very long one. Leaving off an end date essentially leads to a restriction being ensconced permanently where all efforts to reason otherwise become impossible. Restrictions without end dates become powerful tools in the hands of watcher-owner culture. Putting an expiration date on that edit note would go a long way toward decreasing the oppressive feel associated with the tag and note.
108.7.6.66 (talk) 02:25, 7 September 2013 (UTC)
I just noticed the revert citing WP:RETAIN. Don't worry, I'll re-do it with your preferred spelling. Keep in mind that I (and all other non-native British spellers) can only spell your way in as much as I know how to spell your way. I know some of the differences, but not all. If you make the habit of reverting all edits unless the contributor can conform fully to this standard, you lose the the opportunity for important improvements.
By elevating a relatively less important quality factor to the status such as you have, and in the extreme way that you have, you have reverted presumed-improvements related to POV because you were overly concerned about something much less important (unintentional side effects on spelling). I put this forward as a perfect example as to why you "watchers" need to ease off in your zeal for this UK-spelling enforcement regime you've got going here.
108.7.6.66 (talk) 03:58, 7 September 2013 (UTC)
I found a cool converter here: http://www.us2uk.eu . I had reviewed my edit "by hand" for accidental non-UK spellings, but I didn't know if I got them all. So I searched for and found this converter. (My by-hand conversions were confirmed) 108.7.6.66 (talk) 04:34, 7 September 2013 (UTC)
Nonsense. It should be very clear to anyone that I've talked about the tag, and the edit note, and their "chilling effects" on the quality of the article. I've also made ordinary coordination on edits to the article. While making those ordinary coordinations and discussions of policy, I've addressed parties in a way that is both civil and suitably specific or broad. These are all normal and specifically permitted uses of the talk page. I've been sincere in my commentary and coordination and I've complied with alacrity. Please don't try to divert the potential for constructive progress here by mischaracterising. 108.7.6.66 (talk) 07:29, 7 September 2013 (UTC)
"Emilia Kaczorowska (1884–1929), whose mother's maiden surname was Scholz, suggesting partial German ancestry"
Is there any proof of Emilia Kaczorowska's "partial German ancestry"? A lot of Poles have German last names.
Why is a rumor and an opinion given such a prominent place in this article? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 204.50.15.4 (talk) 14:22, 16 October 2013 (UTC)
See Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Karol Wojtyła (senior). --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here 04:51, 9 November 2013 (UTC)
A student working on this article pointed out that this sentence: "While taking a traditional position on sexuality, defending the Church's moral opposition to marriage for same-sex couples, Pope John Paul II asserted that people with homosexual inclinations possess the same inherent dignity and rights as everybody else"; this is taken word for word from the source, "William Frank Smith (November 2010). Catholic Church Milestones: People and Events That Shaped the Institutional Church. Dog Ear Publishing. p. 86. ISBN 978-1-60844-821-0. Retrieved 25 January 2012." I've removed it; it can be replaced once the information is rephrased to avoid duplicating the original. Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 12:53, 9 December 2013 (UTC)
I'm just putting this forth for any discussion but wouldn't it be wise to perhaps use another image of John Paul II for the infobox, specifically one of him when he was a bit older? The one I think could be used is the image of him in 2004 (the presidential medal image). Yes, or no? 115.64.163.13 (talk) 08:18, 10 February 2014 (UTC)
The one that is there now is good enough - but if it were to be changed then the 2004 one would be a good idea. Lord Sidious 82 (talk) 02:32, 15 February 2014 (UTC)
of Youth 2000.--2001:A60:15FD:5C01:8CD:416:F56C:587B (talk) 09:38, 28 April 2014 (UTC)
Hi
I just would like to propose a better, more iconic image.
Thanks
What is the status of this article's name now that he's now St. John Paul II? Should it be moved to that name? 68.146.70.124 (talk) 15:09, 28 April 2014 (UTC)
If you look at the results of the following search:
you will see that some begin with "Pope Saint Name Number" and others begin with "Pope Name Number". In all cases I checked, "Pope Saint Name Number" is used at the top of the infobox.
Perhaps there should be some consistency? 68.165.77.30 (talk) 01:59, 28 April 2014 (UTC)
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Please change the "Saint Pope" John Paul II to Saint John Paul II. The title Saint Pope is incorrect and not used for other Saints who have been popes. I am a Catholic and Knight of Columbus. I know. LavsNB (talk) 12:49, 28 April 2014 (UTC)
I don't normally like getting into edit wars, but there is a persistent attempt being made to change this to "homosexual activists". I think the former term would now be accepted by most people as the more normal term these days. PatGallacher (talk) 21:01, 28 April 2014 (UTC)
"Gay rights" needs to be, at the absolute very least, in quotation marks, and "homosexual activists" should be maintained in the paragraph. Matthewrobertolson (talk) 22:05, 28 April 2014 (UTC)
The Church would never use the phrase "gay rights". Since this is a Catholic article, that fact should be respected. Ideally, "gay rights" would be removed entirely. Matthewrobertolson (talk) 22:06, 28 April 2014 (UTC)
And, why should we respect the wishes of Catholics?! They certainly didn't respect the wishes of all those murdered during the Dirty War in South America or the Troubles in Northern Ireland. I thought this was supposed to be an encyclopedia, not a propaganda wank site for the US Government and its puppet states/religions. You might as well change the domain name to en.wikipedia.gov. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 75.91.250.153 (talk) 17:54, 3 May 2014 (UTC)
Since there are no specific examples of criticisms of John Paul's stance on Gay Rights in the article and the rest of the section repeats his positions stated earlier in the article, I propose removing this section from the article. If someone can dig up specific, notable criticisms, they should be added in order to make this paragraph relevant to the section. Wkharrisjr (talk) 22:20, 3 July 2014 (UTC)
Crozier, Zucchetto, Ring of the Fisherman, Papal shoes and Mitre are attributes of ALL popes, or popes in general. Do we plan to include this item in the infoboxes of all 260-odd articles on popes? If not, why only this particular pope? -- Jack of Oz [pleasantries] 11:18, 25 July 2014 (UTC)
Only six countries border South Africa, or if one uses a stretch of the imagination, seven. This passage needs to refer to some source, otherwise, one cannot see exactly which countries he visited. Without that knowledge, my edit would not be sufficient. This needs further attention. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Dsnow75 (talk • contribs) 19:31, 24 September 2014 (UTC)
The fact that ONE obscure school in Virginia names itself after John Paul "the Great", this does not mean that the attribute is so common to be cited in the first paragraph of the article. The link itself shows a number of schools without the attribute and again just one with it. Please change! — Preceding unsigned comment added by 79.10.193.47 (talk) 11:05, 1 January 2015 (UTC)
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To add in the section on Medugorje for a more accurate picture of his view on the phenomenon. This quote is from an impeccable and easily verifiable source While not taking an official position on Medjugoje, in private he did not hide his own belief. Among other things he said to the archbishop of Florianopolis in Brazil, "Medjugorje is the spiritual centre of the world."[1] 86.136.246.150 (talk) 21:32, 19 February 2015 (UTC)
{{U|Technical 13}} (e • t • c)
21:22, 11 March 2015 (UTC)This edit request to Pope John Paul II has been answered. Set the |answered= or |ans= parameter to no to reactivate your request. |
Please change the title Pope John Paul II to Saint John Paul II with a redirect for the current title. Please also change Saint Pope John Paul II to Saint John Paul II because it is redundant to have two titles. Thank you. http://www.usccb.org/about/divine-worship/liturgical-calendar/saint-john-paul-ii.cfm 71.74.232.181 (talk) 10:46, 2 April 2015 (UTC)
In the 4th paragraph of the introduction, the text "and thus to prepare the world for His final coming." is italicized for no apparent reason. This might be accidental, or as an expression of religious sentiment by some previous contributor, wishing to emphasize a central tenet of Roman Catholicism. However, it is superfluous here, as Wikipedia is an encyclopaedia, not a tract. 98.248.125.108 (talk) 19:12, 14 April 2015 (UTC)
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In the "Bishop and Cardinal" section, I find
"then-Auxiliary Bishop Boleslaw Kominek (Titular Bishop of Sophene and Vaga; of the Catholic Archdiocese of Wrocław and future Cardinal Archbishop of Wrocław)"
Try changing to "Bishop Boleslaw Kominek (Titular Bishop of Sophene and Vaga, auxiliary of the Catholic Archdiocese of Wrocław, and future Cardinal and Archbishop of Wrocław)"
I think it's a slightly-better way of indicating his then status as an auxiliary bishop. Also, I inserted "and" due to "Cardinal" and "Archbishop of Wroclaw" being two separate appointments. A few cardinals get the notation of "cardinal bishop" or "cardinal patriarch", but the bishop of a diocese elsewhere is, when elevated to Cardinal, placed in the order of cardinal priests.
128.63.16.20 (talk) 21:12, 20 April 2015 (UTC)
{{edit semi-protected}}
template. — {{U|Technical 13}} (e • t • c)
11:10, 27 April 2015 (UTC)
Never mind. I see that the citations are complete later in the text. — Preceding unsigned comment added by N. Bolkonsky (talk • contribs) 03:37, 22 May 2015 (UTC)
Here is a citation for the second miracle mentioned in paragraph five:
N. Bolkonsky (talk) 03:31, 22 May 2015 (UTC)
Greetings, Today, I removed the portals for Pope and Catholicism because these are already included in the article's Navbox templates (in the below = parameter). This is per MOS/Layout, See_also_section which states that As a general rule, the "See also" section should not repeat links that appear in the article's body or its navigation boxes.. In addition, I added portals Biography, Christianity, and History since these relate to the article being a Bio. and of a historical figure important to Christianity. Regards, JoeHebda (talk) 13:49, 18 June 2015 (UTC)
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I don't know what this subsection is doing there to be quite honest. Calling him "the Antichrist" is not cricism insomuch that it is lunacy. Also, no controversy seems to have been sparked by it (obviously), making it invalid as "controversy". Bataaf van Oranje (Prinsgezinde) (talk) 17:28, 24 April 2016 (UTC)
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Agata Stachowiak (talk) 12:50, 9 June 2016 (UTC) If you find this article (link below) apoppriate, please add it. Thank you. Agata Stachowiak — Preceding unsigned comment added by Agata Stachowiak (talk • contribs) 12:52, 9 June 2016 (UTC)
"In 1998, when a certain German gathered various statements ..." - what kind of reference is that? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 195.82.64.222 (talk) 10:22, 8 September 2016 (UTC)
His relationship with her doesn't seem to have been as a boyfriend, but it was important and should be mentioned. I do not understand why the Vatican website isn't a reliable source, although it didn't completely back the text and we don't need to use it. Doug Weller talk 08:32, 25 October 2016 (UTC)
I have heard he was gay, or inclined to be so. Girlfriend's possible but not very likely in that case. Wythy (talk) 08:45, 28 December 2016 (UTC)
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Please change
> he described the 12 years of the Nazi régime as "bestiality"
to
> he described the 12 years of the Nazi régime as "inhuman"
and remove the link to Bestiality (redirecting to Zoophilia)
The polish word "bestialstwo" used in the cited reference is a false friend and has no sexual connotation of the english "bestiality". If you look up the translations they will all come up with "inhumane", "very cruel" etc. I don't have the original text, but I believe that in original source the word "bestialstwo" is referring to a concept in Nicomachean Ethics, which it's page cites as "Being beast-like, or brutish (thêoriotês), the opposite of something more than human, something heroic or god-like ". Anyway - nothing connected to sex with animals that current english version implies.
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John Paul II praises animism, drawing parallels with Christianity. He says:
… it would be helpful to recall … the animist religions which stress ancestor worship. It seems that those who practice them are particularly close to Christianity, and among them, the Church's missionaries also find it easier to speak a common language. Is there, perhaps, in this veneration of ancestors a kind of preparation for the Christian faith in the Communion of Saints, in which all believers—whether living or dead—form a single community, a single body? […] There is nothing strange, then, that the African and Asian animists would become believers in Christ more easily than followers of the great religions of the Far East.[1]
In 1985, the pope visited the African country of Togo, where 60 per cent of the population espouses animist beliefs. To honour the pope, animist religious leaders met him at a Catholic Marian shrine in the forest, much to the pontiff's delight. John Paul II proceeded to call for the need for religious tolerance, praised animism, and emphasised common elements between animism and Christianity, saying:
Nature, exuberant and splendid in this area of forests and lakes, impregnates spirits and hearts with its mystery and orients them spontaneously toward the mystery of He who is the author of life. It is this religious sentiment that animates you and one can say that animates all of your compatriots.[2]
to
John Paul II draws parrallels between animism and Christianity. He says:
… it would be helpful to recall … the animist religions which stress ancestor worship. It seems that those who practice them are particularly close to Christianity, and among them, the Church's missionaries also find it easier to speak a common language. Is there, perhaps, in this veneration of ancestors a kind of preparation for the Christian faith in the Communion of Saints, in which all believers—whether living or dead—form a single community, a single body? […] There is nothing strange, then, that the African and Asian animists would become believers in Christ more easily than followers of the great religions of the Far East.[3]
In 1985, the pope visited the African country of Togo, where 60 per cent of the population espouses animist beliefs. To honour the pope, animist religious leaders met him at a Catholic Marian shrine in the forest, much to the pontiff's delight. John Paul II proceeded to call for the need for religious tolerance, praised nature, and emphasised common elements between animism and Christianity, saying:
Nature, exuberant and splendid in this area of forests and lakes, impregnates spirits and hearts with its mystery and orients them spontaneously toward the mystery of He who is the author of life. It is this religious sentiment that animates you and one can say that animates all of your compatriots.[4]
This makes more sense and will help to avoid confusion that he endorsed a non Catholic Religion Ilikerabbits! (talk) 15:00, 3 June 2017 (UTC)
@Pol098: In this revision of the article, it appears that you replaced one of the links to MSNBC with a link to a fringe-theory website called disclose.tv. This link now appears to be broken. Is it still possible to link to the original article from MSNBC? Jarble (talk) 23:44, 14 June 2017 (UTC)
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I'm not terribly pleased with how this entire section is phrased.
It sounds very philoamerican/anticommunist, decidedly not NPOV.
For starters, I'd rephrase the section title as "Polish attempt to humiliate John Paul II" (I don't think Fidel Castro, Deng Xiaoping or the Italian Communist Party had anything to do with this).
I'm also displeased with the wording of "John Paul II has been credited with being instrumental in bringing down Communism in Central and Eastern Europe", which seems to endorse the outcome.
Similarly, the "Role in the collapse of dictatorships" section seems to conflate "communism" and "dictatorship".
MrFlowerpot (talk) 23:34, 2 November 2017 (UTC)
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change "Catholic Church" to "Roman Catholic Church" Researchatbriancraigmcdaniel (talk) 18:59, 22 January 2018 (UTC) Had intended to change "Catholic Church" to "Roman Catholic Church" to be more precise and for continuity with articles on earlier Roman Catholic Popes (their are other Popes in the Christian world)
In section Pope John Paul II#Election the insertion of the Billy Graham coincidence breaks the natural flow of this sentence:
I have no suggestions on how to fix this, and I'm also unsure whether it's even relevant. --84user (talk) 10:12, 24 February 2018 (UTC)
Greetings! With this edit, a new issue was wedged next to two others, and John Paul was described as "conservative" vis-a-vis the Second Vatican Council. These are very problematic propositions. Firstly, the source is not very reliable regarding the Catholic Church. So it is unsurprising that they have not bothered to make a distinction between discipline and doctrine. It is unhelpful to include a mention of priestly celibacy in a sentence that appears outwardly to be about "upholding" (as it was formerly described) Church doctrine. Secondly, regarding the assertion that John Paul was "conservative in his interpretation" of Vatican II and its reforms. That is not in the source - at all. The source describes John Paul as personally conservative, and might be usable under WP:ATTRIBUTEPOV, but the assertion in the diff must be thrown out altogether.
Pope John Paul II a.k.a. "The Yellow Face" (pl. Żółta Morda) is a cult and classic Polish hero of countless series of satirical pictures with white subtitles on them a.k.a. memes. He is portrayed as a notorious child molester, enthusiast of traditional "kremówka" cakes, main executioner of Polish officers in Katyń and a skilled dancer. Kremówczak (talk) 09:22, 14 August 2018 (UTC)
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Could Category:Christian philosophers and Category:Roman Catholic writers be removed as they are parent categories of Category:Roman Catholic philosophers? Thanks, 142.160.89.97 (talk) 07:40, 26 September 2018 (UTC)
Currently the Presbyterate section states the title as: '"Reevaluation of the possibility of founding a Catholic ethic on the ethical system of Max Scheler"[60] (Ocena możliwości zbudowania etyki chrześcijańskiej przy założeniach systemu Maksa Schelera).[61]', but [61] provides its translation as "On the possibility of constructing a Christian ethics on the basis of the system of Max Scheler", which is more accurate except the first 2 words of the original title. However, the lead of Max Scheler provides a better translation as "An Evaluation of the Possibility of Constructing a Christian Ethics on the Basis of the System of Max Scheler". The key difference lies in using the words "evaluation" and "constructing" instead of "reevaluation" and "founding". Though, the phrase "on the Basis" (meaning "on the whole") translates the original in general not terribly, the actual words literally translated are "under the Assumptions" (not the whole Scheler's system is considered, but only its assumptions and thus not conclusions), there is no reason why the actual words could not be used, since they fit properly in English as well. Thus, the accurate translation of the tile should be "An Evaluation of the Possibility of Constructing a Christian Ethics under the Assumptions of the System of Max Scheler", which sounds correct in English and well reflects the original, actual meaning. So, why to distort it?!--67.87.187.95 (talk) 16:09, 10 October 2018 (UTC)
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In the section on institutions named after Pope John Paul II, please add:
"Pope John Paul II High School in Olympia, WA"
source: http://www.popejp2hs.org/ Aecooper1 (talk) 12:57, 13 October 2018 (UTC)
In the "Problems with Traditionalists" section, is written, "Likewise criticised was his kissing[339] of the Qur'an in Damascus, Syria, on one of his travels on 6 May 2001." where citation [339] itself is dated 14 May 1999, and references "John Paul II kisses the Koran (Qu'ran) at the Vatican." Assuming the cited source is correct, the sentence should be rewritten
"Likewise criticised was his kissing[339] of the Qur'an at the Vatican on 14 May 1999."
Alternatively, if there are multiple instances, the citation itself should be changed appropriately. Kelseymh (talk) 06:25, 16 October 2018 (UTC)
The statement (1) about the Pope asking that his sacred garments not be removed during his operation after the first assassination attempt is no doubt referenced, but it reads as if the doctors perhaps complied - leaving such a garment on in a sterile environment would have been unthinkable in any non-warfront operation. Additionally, the (2) statement about the Portuguese assassin being treated for mental illness then expelled to Belgium technically seems to suggest that Portugal had the power to make him a Belgian barrister. Please tighten the prose. 50.111.19.178 (talk) 10:01, 16 October 2018 (UTC)
In my opinion the infobox picture should be changed by this new one (see at the right side) because this one have highest resolution and well represents the Pope's figure and attitude. I let here my suggestion. Anjo-sozinho (talk) 01:09, 15 November 2018 (UTC)
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Eddyl has edited this page in a very contentious, politically motivated, and salacious manner; biased on opinions and not substantiated fact. There is a completely different ‘truth’ from an opposite political view; which side could also publish biased opinions as ‘facts’. Wikipedia must strive to keep their pages fact only, not unprovable opinion such as Eddyl placed in this page. Wikipedia will die if it becomes politically left or right; the public will not lose trust in the site- and that would mean the demise of Wikipedia. Please remove Eddyl’s biased edits, flag him from future edits, and return to fact only page on John Paul II. Thank you. Stopspin (talk) 15:14, 31 March 2019 (UTC)
There is a clear consensus against the inclusion of the assertion that John Paul caused up to 40 million starvation deaths. The consensus is that no non-fringe sources have been presented to support this assertion.
Cunard (talk) 05:29, 5 May 2019 (UTC)
In this edit, an extraordinary claim was added to the lede, based on a single citation. I have not been able to evaluate the reliability of this source, but it seems that we need to follow WP:EXTRAORDINARY here by all means. Your input is welcome here! 2600:8800:1880:FC:5604:A6FF:FE38:4B26 (talk) 02:17, 22 March 2019 (UTC)
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Please remove this passage from the lede, because it is insufficiently sourced: Accordingly, his lifelong efforts to prevent contraceptive access and encourage excessive population growth are estimated to have caused 30-40 million deaths due to starvation in overpopulated, underfed regions of the world. 2600:8800:1880:FC:5604:A6FF:FE38:4B26 (talk) 00:50, 24 March 2019 (UTC)
{{edit semi-protected}}
template. - FlightTime (open channel) 00:52, 24 March 2019 (UTC)It becomes clear as one reads this section that certain striking phrases and sentences are direct quotations from the Pope. In context, however, this is not clearly indicated. If other editors are agreeable, I would suggest that lead sentences be added to eliminate any uncertainty on this score.
As presently edited it remains unclear in the following example, whether the two quotations are something said by Rabbi Michael Melchior or by the Pope. The addition of a simple [lead phrase] clarifies this immediately:
- Begins -
Israeli cabinet minister Rabbi Michael Melchior, who hosted the pope's visit, said he was "very moved" by the pope's gesture.[103][104] [Among the comments made by John Paul II on this occasion were:][1][2]
It was beyond history, beyond memory.
We are deeply saddened by the behaviour of those who in the course of history have caused these children of yours to suffer, and asking your forgiveness we wish to commit ourselves to genuine brotherhood with the people of the Covenant.
- Ends -
There are a couple more instances of such ambiguity in this section.
John Crowfoot (talk) 08:46, 9 May 2019 (UTC)
Content added by 67.184.212.160 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · page moves · block user · block log) has been removed from this article for copyright reasons. In spite of warning, the individual using this IP has persisted in copying content from copyrighted sources without compatible licensing to Wikipedia. Please do not restore any removed text without first ensuring that the text does not duplicate, closely paraphrase or plagiarize from a previously published source, whether the one cited or another (issues have been detected from other sources than those named). Based on the editing pattern of this person, we cannot make the assumption that the content is usable. You are welcome to use sourced facts that may have been removed to create new content in your own words or to incorporate brief quotations of copyrighted material in accordance with the non-free content policy and guideline. See Wikipedia:Copy-paste and Wikipedia:Contributor copyright investigations/67.184.212.160. Thank you. --💵Money💵emoji💵💸 02:23, 18 July 2019 (UTC)
About the reference Lee, Martin A. (14 May 2001). "The 1981 Assassination Attempt of Pope John Paul II, The Grey Wolves, and Turkish & U.S. Government Intelligence Agencies". San Francisco Bay Guardian. pp. 23, 25., I did some research and I'm not sure if Martin A Lee wrote The 1981 Assassination Attempt of Pope John Paul II, The Gray Wolves, and Turkish & U.S. Government Intelligence Agencies. Ishiai (talk) 18:47, 13 August 2020 (UTC)
I've removed the signature in the info box as I could find no reliable source for it. I did find that it is often used on prayer cards sold on eBay and appears to have been done by one of those auto signature machines. I've noticed signatures before on other clergy articles. It's always the case that they match items for sale on eBay but no reliable sources can be found. Bodding (talk) 16:10, 13 September 2020 (UTC)
@Red Rose 13: persistantly includes Sister Emanuel Maillard's quotes attributed to Pope John Paul II, even though Cardinal Ratzinger refuted these claims as "mere fabrications" (frei erfunden). Since these claims are denied by Cardinal Ratzinger, there's no need to include them in the article. What's the point of mentioning them if at the end, we'll conclude that the Pope never said these things. It's like writing on the page about Holocaust that some pseudo-historians think that 6 million Jews haven't been killed, and then conclude that this claim is false. --Governor Sheng (talk) 16:30, 16 November 2020 (UTC)
@Governor Sheng: We are trying to discuss the quote from Maillards on the Medujogorje talk page and 3 times I have asked him to be specific by copying and pasting the words that bother him and/or provide a link. And he still hasn't. I have now added another reference that backs up the quotes. Ratziner has not refuted the claims that I posted. They were said to the confidantes in private by the Pope himself and documented. Red Rose 13 (talk) 22:02, 16 November 2020 (UTC)
There is a move discussion in progress on Talk:JP2 (disambiguation) which affects this page. Please participate on that page and not in this talk page section. Thank you. —RMCD bot 12:48, 20 January 2021 (UTC)
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I need to edit for a essay that i need to do pls HIM Anderson (talk) 21:14, 9 April 2021 (UTC)
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Pope John Paul II’s name should appear “Saint Pope John Paul II” or at least begin with the abbreviation for saint (St.). Wikipedia does this for the other saints and John Paul II earned the same respect. He was responsible for the fall of communism and was seen in person by more people than any human in history. He forgave the man who shot him. He lived an exemplary life. You can’t use the argument that Saint isn’t part of his name because Pope isn’t either and his real name is Karol Wojtyla. I’m not trying to come across rude or argumentative, just making the case for one of my heroes to be called the title he earned. Going by the precedents already set by Wikipedia I am correct. 50.238.140.74 (talk) 21:25, 9 June 2021 (UTC)
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In the early life or personal life section, please add that Pope John Paul II was a FC Barcelona fan. 76.103.46.252 (talk) 03:51, 18 June 2021 (UTC)
{{edit semi-protected}}
template. Elizium23 (talk) 04:01, 18 June 2021 (UTC)I'm just putting this forth for any discussion but wouldn't it be wise to perhaps use another image of John Paul II for the infobox, specifically one of him when he was a bit older? The one I think could be used is the image of him in 2004 (the presidential medal image). Yes, or no? 115.64.163.13 (talk) 08:18, 10 February 2014 (UTC)
The one that is there now is good enough - but if it were to be changed then the 2004 one would be a good idea. Lord Sidious 82 (talk) 02:32, 15 February 2014 (UTC)
of Youth 2000.--2001:A60:15FD:5C01:8CD:416:F56C:587B (talk) 09:38, 28 April 2014 (UTC)
Hi
I just would like to propose a better, more iconic image.
Thanks
I'm just putting this forth for any discussion but wouldn't it be wise to perhaps use another image of John Paul II for the infobox, specifically one of him when he was a bit older? The one I think could be used is the image of him in 2004 (the presidential medal image). Yes, or no? 115.64.163.13 (talk) 08:18, 10 February 2014 (UTC)
The one that is there now is good enough - but if it were to be changed then the 2004 one would be a good idea. Lord Sidious 82 (talk) 02:32, 15 February 2014 (UTC)
of Youth 2000.--2001:A60:15FD:5C01:8CD:416:F56C:587B (talk) 09:38, 28 April 2014 (UTC)
Hi
I just would like to propose a better, more iconic image.
Thanks
What is the status of this article's name now that he's now St. John Paul II? Should it be moved to that name? 68.146.70.124 (talk) 15:09, 28 April 2014 (UTC)
If you look at the results of the following search:
you will see that some begin with "Pope Saint Name Number" and others begin with "Pope Name Number". In all cases I checked, "Pope Saint Name Number" is used at the top of the infobox.
Perhaps there should be some consistency? 68.165.77.30 (talk) 01:59, 28 April 2014 (UTC)
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Please change the "Saint Pope" John Paul II to Saint John Paul II. The title Saint Pope is incorrect and not used for other Saints who have been popes. I am a Catholic and Knight of Columbus. I know. LavsNB (talk) 12:49, 28 April 2014 (UTC)
I don't normally like getting into edit wars, but there is a persistent attempt being made to change this to "homosexual activists". I think the former term would now be accepted by most people as the more normal term these days. PatGallacher (talk) 21:01, 28 April 2014 (UTC)
"Gay rights" needs to be, at the absolute very least, in quotation marks, and "homosexual activists" should be maintained in the paragraph. Matthewrobertolson (talk) 22:05, 28 April 2014 (UTC)
The Church would never use the phrase "gay rights". Since this is a Catholic article, that fact should be respected. Ideally, "gay rights" would be removed entirely. Matthewrobertolson (talk) 22:06, 28 April 2014 (UTC)
And, why should we respect the wishes of Catholics?! They certainly didn't respect the wishes of all those murdered during the Dirty War in South America or the Troubles in Northern Ireland. I thought this was supposed to be an encyclopedia, not a propaganda wank site for the US Government and its puppet states/religions. You might as well change the domain name to en.wikipedia.gov. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 75.91.250.153 (talk) 17:54, 3 May 2014 (UTC)
Since there are no specific examples of criticisms of John Paul's stance on Gay Rights in the article and the rest of the section repeats his positions stated earlier in the article, I propose removing this section from the article. If someone can dig up specific, notable criticisms, they should be added in order to make this paragraph relevant to the section. Wkharrisjr (talk) 22:20, 3 July 2014 (UTC)
Crozier, Zucchetto, Ring of the Fisherman, Papal shoes and Mitre are attributes of ALL popes, or popes in general. Do we plan to include this item in the infoboxes of all 260-odd articles on popes? If not, why only this particular pope? -- Jack of Oz [pleasantries] 11:18, 25 July 2014 (UTC)
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As of 2014 Pope John Paul II has been declared a saint after it was found that he committed two miracles posthumously.
[3] Tinamaria17 (talk) 10:08, 27 March 2022 (UTC)
{{edit semi-protected}}
template. The sainthood is covered extensively. ScottishFinnishRadish (talk) 10:19, 27 March 2022 (UTC)The painting in the “Posthumous recognition” section info box is currently incorrectly attributed to “Zbigniewa Kotyłły”. The painter’s name is actually Zbigniew Kotyłło, and the mistake here presumably resulted from someone copying the genitive form of the name from some Polish source and pasting it directly. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2601:285:8700:919A:1E9:5DF3:539A:D624 (talk) 15:01, 8 June 2022 (UTC)
he just was polonized Lithuanian from his father's line 86.38.75.174 (talk) 15:38, 1 October 2022 (UTC)
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Please add 'John Paul II Catholic University of Lublin' to the list of institutions named after John Paul II. RomanEmpire28 (talk) 20:47, 22 January 2023 (UTC)
Stv26, please consider that the infobox picture should be a better quality image in terms how it presents its subject matter, ideally a proper staged portrait is preferred (for example like in these articles: James Baker, Barack Obama or Pope Paul VI), not an awkward cropped picture with someone in a middle a sentence and with the microphone being at center stage obstructing part of the picture. As you can see other Wikipeida articles on persons do generally follow this approach of using proper staged portrait. --E-960 (talk) 15:57, 27 March 2022 (UTC)
I support the image change. The previous image with the microphone wasn’t a great infobox image. Orson12345 (talk) 20:37, 4 April 2022 (UTC)
Revisiting this, I think the info box picture needs to be changed again. The photo looks bad Gregcar1954 (talk) 16:22, 23 January 2023 (UTC)
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Needs a new picture 2601:407:4100:74D0:F57F:54BA:DA8A:CF60 (talk) 03:34, 29 January 2023 (UTC)
Unfortunately, this article reads more like hagiography than biography. 2600:1700:32A0:C640:4152:C02B:8BF9:9C6F (talk) 09:39, 6 May 2022 (UTC)
The whole thing reads like a whitewash by patriotic polish catholics. The guy had been defending pedos since the early 1970-s ffs! https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/2023/03/07/church-sex-abuse-john-paul-poland/464bed56-bcd8-11ed-9350-7c5fccd598ad_story.html https://www.euronews.com/2023/03/07/pope-john-paul-ii-covered-up-paedophilia-polish-tv-investigation-alleges Daikido (talk) 17:12, 11 March 2023 (UTC)
After his heart stopped, machines monitored his heart for rhythm for over 20 minutes. He lived exactly 31000 days, served as pope 9666 days; 31 backwards is 13, number of mother of god, pope's second mother! 109.121.204.67 (talk) 21:24, 28 February 2023 (UTC)
This is the most egregiously long infobox I've ever seen. There's no reason for the "ordination history" section to be there. And why should an infobox list EVERY SINGLE bishop ever ordained by him? The point of an infobox is to provide an easy way for a casual reader to find important information, and some of the bishops listed aren't even notable enough to have their own articles, so it's clearly not that important to list ALL of them. Also, infoboxes are not meant to contain information that's not also in the article, and I don't see his ordination history in the actual article. This could be fixed by just removing the whole chunk from the infobox and making it into a section with a table. Do you have any idea how long it takes to scroll down to the actual article on mobile? Zpicey (talk) 20:52, 11 May 2023 (UTC)
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Found a piece of literature written by him not discussed in Wikipedia. It is called “crossing the threshold of hope” Kebui (talk) 03:08, 8 July 2023 (UTC)
Citation 55 related to Edith Zierer is excessively weak. Does not mention him or the assistance she received at all, unless there's something I was unable to find. This is not to discredit the incident, just that there should be a higher standard of citation. Was taken in 1945 when she had no idea who he was going to be or his significance.
Here's a much better one. I will allow someone else to change it so I am not involved in an edit war with someone who has override powers and an agenda. Those sort of things tend to happen when you delve into the religious sphere. https://www.nytimes.com/2005/04/06/world/worldspecial2/the-polish-seminary-student-and-the-jewish-girl-he.html Ba18070 (talk) 11:50, 3 August 2023 (UTC)
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