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Closing per WP:NOTAFORUM - please take COI issues to COIN]] | ||
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I started a Third Opinion request, have been told that RfC is more appropriate. The question is "Whether or not NLP is a pseudo-science or a psychological method?" htom (talk) 05:23, 3 January 2012 (UTC) The tool doesn't have an option to put this into a group like Medicine or Psychology. :( If someone knows how to do that, it would help. htom (talk) 05:23, 3 January 2012 (UTC)
I wonder how much of this criticism from linguists is driven by jealousy of Grinder's success and turf wars? Wosow (1985) provided some insight: "Linguistic theorists who leave the ivory tower are eyed with suspicion and treated as tainted. Consider, for example, what is undoubtedly the greatest commercial success to have descended (in one sense, at least) from generative grammar, namely Neurolinguistic Programming. One might think that the fact that Grinder is no longer a poor boy like his former colleagues in academia would have made him a hero to them. Far from it. Obviously, linguists don't know what side their bread is buttered on. Perhaps this is a sign of the integrity of our discipline. However, the fact that we have no more respectable applications to offer in its place raises questions about our status as a science" - Wasow, T. (1985). Comment: The wizards of Ling. Natural Language and Linguistic Theory, 3(3), 485-492. Wosow is now a professor of linguistics at Stanford. --122.108.140.210 (talk) 04:18, 4 January 2012 (UTC)
Sorry. I was saying it is real, and therefore not psudoscience. But I was also saying that I'm concerned or alarmed by its potential for use by cult-like organizations or such to mind-control people. I did not speak of it's potential for good. You have established that it seems to have real benefits for great good based on these citations. However, are there no citations that express any alarm or concern for its potential as a mind-control tool for suseptable individuals? Chrisrus (talk) 19:07, 24 January 2012 (UTC) Sorry I'm late to the party but it doesn't seem to be sufficient that a few published psychotherapists label something as a pseudoscience. In order to be classed as a pseudoscience on WP, it must be "generally considered pseudoscience by the scientific community" WP:FRINGE/PS. Is anyone claiming that and if so, where are your sources? --Mindjuicer (talk) 03:44, 20 February 2012 (UTC)
I strongly recommend adopting a policy of WP:SILENCE toward Mindjuicer. What you are witnessing, I both suspect and hope, are the death throes of an editor about to be blocked for outrageous behaviour. Famousdog (talk) 10:31, 21 February 2012 (UTC)
Famousdog, The model cannot be understood without an explanation of Anchoring. Anchoring appears in every single original text almost without exception. All attempts at adding information about anchoring are met with rule based objections. That is what I mean by obfuscation. The editor who rejects adding information about anchoring has an acknowledged conflicts of interest. This article is hopeless in it's current form--- it's like an article about Pavlov and Cognitive Behavioral Therapy that doesn't explain Classical Conditioning. There's no way to make sense of the model from this article. Hope that clarifies my use of the word "obfuscation" adequately. If you don't believe me, call any hypnosis school or any NLP school in the world, or grab any original text on NLP and read about anchoring for yourself. Totally unexplainable move.--Encyclotadd (talk) 16:13, 22 February 2012 (UTC)
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Closing per WP:NOTAFORUM. ISTB351 (talk) 01:14, 20 February 2012 (UTC) |
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Hello istb351, can I please ask? Would it be more appropriate to revert the article to a time before this dispute? There are a couple of editors who are in contention as to their identity on wikipedia. As the evidence mounts against these editors I find it hard to give them the reward of editorial priviledges of displaying a version of NLP that is similar in content to headlydowns version so many years ago. Headlydown has lost his right to edit wikipedia as you know and should not be rewarded in any reincarnation or suspected reincarnation. This would only give him every encouragement to continue as thinking he will have some success at doing it. Also I would like to add that any of Headly's edits should be recorded to identify recurring themes research writing style etc if you are not already doing this so that a reincarnation is easy to identify. I have I think rememberred my correct user name. If you could direct me on how to find it then I will. Juzzyfet was an old nick and one that I had used years ago on other sites, however I think this one will be correct and identify me from that time. I will not display it here as it has personal identifying information. instead I will ask FT2 to verify it. regards. Enemesis (talk) 03:45, 16 February 2012 (UTC)
in regards to a) The predominant sources are anti NLP making a biased article I have recently come in if you could direct me then I could find previous edits as examples. In regards to b)I believe from the posts I have left before that it is quite clear that this article expresses the problems with NLP and does not have enough historical value to repressent the subject resepctively. I will not comment on headleydown for now, I will take your advice and upon me being a witness at that time I would hope that it would hold some weight. Enemesis (talk) 02:45, 17 February 2012 (UTC) . |
ISTB351, Regarding your recent revision:
I agree the existing sources are not adequate. Perhaps the solution is adding references rather than removing the copy.
My reason for my feeling this way is based on the following:
The Independent, mentions the lawsuit. http://www.independent.co.uk/life-style/health-and-families/healthy-living/messing-with-your-head-does-the-man-behind-neurolinguistic-programming-want-to-change-your-life-ndash-or-control-your-mind-1774383.html?action=Popup
A university professor writes about the lawsuit here. http://www.neurosemantics.com/nlp/the-history-of-nlp/the-lawsuit-that-almost-killed-nlp
The Skeptic Dictionary even covers it. http://www.skepdic.com/neurolin.html
None of these are perfect sources. But they're an indication that the perfect sources are out there-- for example the court documents themselves.--Encyclotadd (talk) 10:43, 16 February 2012 (UTC)
There is a third party source (it was a review of Lisa Wake's book) that sums up the lawsuit and malaise quite well in one paragraph, "Unfortunately Bandler and Grinder fell out and there was a lawsuit that was eventually resolved in 2001 with both agreeing to be recognized as co-founders of NLP. This dispute resulted in the establishment of a number of bodies to represent NLP and, in addition, various approaches have been developed and numerous strategies have been incorporated within NLP. The result of all of this trauma and change has been that NLP has grown in many directions without a clear and universally recognized unifying content. The end result has been a “discipline” which has no clear agreed definition of purpose and some external commentators question its credibility and evidence of success."(Wilson 2011 p.1) If you want to use it, the citation is: John P. Wilson, (2011) "NLP: Principles in Practice", Industrial and Commercial Training, Vol. 43 Iss: 2. --122.x.x.x (talk) 12:31, 17 February 2012 (UTC)
I'm working on a revision based on current reliable sources, see User:122.x.x.x/NLP_reliable_sources. I'm starting with just a bare bones structure. If anyone else is keen to help let me know. I will be starting with a search of the literature for "Bandler+Grinder" OR "NLP" OR "Neuro-linguistic programming" OR "Neurolinguistic programming". I will use google scholar, psychinfo, pubmed and proquest. Any suggestions? --122.x.x.x (talk) 00:53, 17 February 2012 (UTC)
An example of original research was an earlier attempt to include material from that guy who ran an education business. The danger with gathering cases, no matter what the journals, is what conclusions you draw from those and what statements are made - indeed why a particular example is selected in the first place. WP:RS is pretty clear on this and your formulation is not one I would disagree with. However until we have proposed content linked to sources it is difficult to make any judgement. ----Snowded TALK 00:29, 22 February 2012 (UTC)
I believe the reason this article has been the center of controversy for the past six years is that it's inaccurate.
The article's flaws are obvious to anyone who has studied this model in any depth. Don't believe me? Do five minutes of independent research... contact any hypnosis or NLP school in the world.
Why is this the case? Traditional Wikipedia rules have failed us.
Virtually everyone who has attended a lecture on NLP has received a "license." I submit that one can only learn communication techniques by hearing words and tonality while watching body language, in addition to reading books. When a source is "licensed," it means he took the time to attend a lecture and figure out what NLP is actually about.
Yet "licensed" sources have been regularly rejected on the grounds they have a conflict of interest.
It's time for us to view licensed sources for what they are-- significantly more knowledgeable than unlicensed sources about NLP. --Encyclotadd (talk) 17:49, 28 February 2012 (UTC)
I think Encyclotadd and Enemesis need to provide some evidence for their assertions or changes that they want to make and stop treating Wikipedia as a forum. This will go nowhere until they either a) provide reliable sources or b) succeed in changing (several) WP policy/ies. Ranting here will not move things forward and, if pursued, will simply lead to a topic ban for them both. From this point onwards I will be observing WP:SILENCE until they suggest some concrete, constructive changes to the article. Famousdog (talk) 11:07, 1 March 2012 (UTC)
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The technique section says
There are several problems with this sentence, not all of them being grammatical. AxelBoldt (talk) 23:02, 11 May 2012 (UTC)
There are many extremely weak articles on WP that are part of the "NLP project". They should, in my opinion, be deleted for a variety of reasons, starting with this one. Famousdog (talk) 09:25, 29 May 2012 (UTC)
This is from a peer reviewed American Psychological Association journal, and is available in the psychinfo database.
Effects of neuro-linguistic psychotherapy on psychological difficulties and perceived quality of life.
"Aims: The purpose of this study was to examine the effects of Neuro-Linguistic Psychotherapy on psychological difficulties and perceived quality of life of clients who came for psychotherapy during free practice. Method: A total of 106 psychotherapy clients were randomly assigned to a therapy group or a control group. The outcome was assessed by the Structured Clinical Interview for DSM-IV Personality Disorders (SCID II) with respect to clinical symptoms and by the Croatian Scale of Quality of Life (KVZ) with respect to Quality of Life. The therapy group received the measures at pre-, post- and five-months follow-up occasions, whereas the control group received them initially and after a period of three months. Results: In the therapy group, as compared to the control group, there was a significant decrease of clinical symptoms and increase in the quality of life. With respect to clinical symptoms, effect sizes were 0.65 at post-measurement and 1.09 at follow-up, indicating a substantial reduction of symptom strain, which is comparable to the well established effects of Cognitive Behavior Therapy. We also found a significant increase in perceived quality of life after therapy, as compared to the wait-list control group, with effect sizes between 0.51 and 0.73. Therapeutic improvements were still present five months after the end of therapy, showing further development in the same direction. Conclusions: Neurolinguistic psychotherapy is an efficient intervention, which is on a par with other, well-established psychotherapeutic techniques. (PsycINFO Database Record (c) 2012 APA, all rights reserved)"
I recommend we remove the claim that NLP has been discredited from the introduction in deference to reliable sources suggesting it's highly effective.
Also this type of current research means that either the American Psychological Association is engaging in pseudo scientific research, or Wikipedia's classification of NLP as pseudoscience is wrong. Who else thinks it's the latter? --Encyclotadd (talk) 17:43, 27 May 2012 (UTC)
Encyclotadd, repeating the same incorrect statements...
- "This is from a peer reviewed American Psychological Association journal, and is available in the psychinfo database. ...snip... Also this type of current research means that either the American Psychological Association is engaging in pseudo scientific research, or Wikipedia's classification of NLP as pseudoscience is wrong. Who else thinks it's the latter?"
- "According to an American Psychological Association peer reviewed journal two short years ago, "Neurolinguistic psychotherapy is an efficient intervention, which is on a par with other, well-established psychotherapeutic techniques." That represents some of the most current research on the subject."
- "... a third party reliable source that said: Conclusions: Neurolinguistic psychotherapy is an efficient intervention, which is on a par with other, well-established psychotherapeutic techniques. (PsycINFO Database Record (c) 2012 APA, all rights reserved)"
- "The APA peer reviewed study (more recent than any appearing in the article, I believe) states that, "Neurolinguistic psychotherapy is an efficient intervention, which is on a par with other, well-established psychotherapeutic techniques."
- "Rather, the study concluding that "Neurolinguistic psychotherapy is an efficient intervention, which is on a par with other, well-established psychotherapeutic techniques" appears in one of the most highly regarded American Psychological peer reviewed journal. ...snip... Obviously the APA takes the subject and conclusion seriously."
...will not make them correct.
The full citation for the study in question:
As you might notice...
That being said, the study is a primary source...
Primary sources are very close to an event, and are often accounts written by people who are directly involved. They offer an insider's view of an event, a period of history, a work of art, a political decision, and so on. An account of a traffic accident written by a witness is a primary source of information about the accident; similarly, a scientific paper documenting a new experiment is a primary source on the outcome of that experiment. Historical documents such as diaries are primary sources. —WP:PRIMARY
A conclusion that is reinforced by the associations of the study's authors...
Using this study as justification to "...remove the claim that NLP has been discredited from the introduction in deference to reliable sources suggesting it's highly effective." would be an example of according the source undue weight and is not supportable. —ArtifexMayhem (talk) 06:27, 6 June 2012 (UTC)
I would like to add another .02. Even if the study were peer reviewed and published, it does not justify changing the article's comments very much.
In essence, there are many studies demonstrating that many NLP claims are wholly unsupported or false.
This one study, would be a single study that provides support for only one of NLPs many many claims.
Many studies against and one (non-peer reviewed) study "for" raise another statistical issue. The entire meaning of statistical significance is that the probably of something happening by chance when there is no actual relationship is only likely to occur with a low probability <.05. This means that by definition, when there is no relationship, 5 times out of a 100, one will "find" a relationship when it doesn't even exist... — Preceding unsigned comment added by 98.248.28.151 (talk) 00:39, 13 July 2012 (UTC)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Articles_for_deletion/Anchoring_%28NLP%29
Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Anchoring (NLP)
Surprised no one else has commented. htom (talk) 20:30, 5 June 2012 (UTC)
A few more have been added, bringing the total to twelve. Is this the correct process? htom (talk) 20:48, 7 June 2012 (UTC)
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-edinburgh-east-fife-18812072 — Preceding unsigned comment added by 79.177.223.249 (talk) 00:07, 16 July 2012 (UTC)
Hi. Was surprised to find huge gaps in the history of NLP in this article. I'm sure that various editors have considered doing it, but I probably see a few conflicting impulses:
The status quo has been "well, let's not add anything at all". As much as I think this is the safest and most NPOV approach, it goes against our fundamental WP:GA and WP:FA goals of being comprehensive and complete. I expanded the history section with developments since the 1980s. Does anyone have any concerns either way, that the section is either too harsh on NLP, or too supportive? Rather than deleting or removing big hunks of the section, let's try as much as possible to rephrase or re-verify the material. I'll try to check in again when I can, hopefully within the next week or two. Vcessayist (talk) 20:35, 2 August 2012 (UTC)
I know nothing about NLP. Only came to the page because someone in China wrote to say they just completed the first NLP course and found it of value. Knowing nothing about the course, I came here to learn. After reading this page, I still do not understand what NLP is about, only that the people who wrote the Wikipedia page are quite convinced that it is a discredited course that does not deliver on what it promises (or something to that effect).
Accordingly, this page reads more like a Medieval religious debate than an encyclopaedic article, with a clear bias that NLP is bad.
I recommend that it be completely rewritten:
1) Present a neutral description of what NLP is so that people who do not understand anything get a good overall understanding of what it is about.
2) Create a criticism section that flips back and forth from positive claim to negative rebuttal, but write both sides in a neutral, dispassionate way
3) Do not presume just because someone has written a debunking article that can be quoted that this is The Truth. Rather present the gist of the debunking article in a neutral way so readers can form their own opinion
Historia Errorem (talk) 09:49, 13 November 2012 (UTC)
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- - - -
I am familiar with the five pillars, including this one:
Wikipedia is written from a neutral point of view. We strive for articles that document and explain the major points of view in a balanced and impartial manner. We avoid advocacy and we characterize information and issues rather than debate them. In some areas there may be just one well-recognized point of view; in other areas we describe multiple points of view, presenting each accurately and in context, and not presenting any point of view as "the truth" or "the best view". All articles must strive for verifiable accuracy: unreferenced material may be removed, so please provide references. Editors' personal experiences, interpretations, or opinions do not belong here. That means citing verifiable, authoritative sources, especially on controversial topics and when the subject is a living person.
The article is not neutral. As a neutral person coming to it to learn about something someone has attended, all I learn is that it has been discredited by people. I did not learn much about the subject, but only its opposition. Also, while I won't take the time to check it out, "authoritative" probably needs more support than in this article. Just because it is quoted, does not mean the sources are authoritative. Indeed even academics with degrees and prestigious chairs does not mean their work is authoritative; especially when they become judgemental.
Like Scientology, it obviously is a subject that has both believers and opponents, and it appears the opponents are vociferous and well represented on Wikipedia. But what if I was an anthropologist seeking to understand the belief systems? I would suspend judgement about the validity of those belief systems but this would not mean that I would not document them.
When an anthropologist is told "witches fly to the full moon on a broomstick", do they begin by saying "what utter nonsense, don't be absurd. No one flies on broomsticks?" Well, actually the bad anthropologists do say exactly that, but the best ones don't. Instead they say "OK, I accept what you say, now let me work out how they do that since it is outside my scope of reality." That anthropologist sees that before the witch flies she has a big cauldron with a witches brew that she stirs with a broomstick. The anthropologist observes the witch putting in deadly nightshade into the pot, which on chemical analysis shows bella donna, a powerful mind altering drug. Then the witch puts the broomstick between her legs (not wearing underpants) where the drug penetrates the skin at the right rate... enough to induce hallucinations, but not enough to poison the body. Now curious, and being a bold scientist, the anthropologist tries the drug and has a mind-blowing "trip" where everything seems absolutely real, except their assistant video taping shows the anthropologist never left the room. It all was in the mind, but the drug set the mind on a dream as real as daily life. So the answer comes clear. Yes, the witch does fly, but not in the physical world, but the world inside her mind. Of course the next step is to ask if that other world is real, but the anthropologist steps back, because in academia, there is a clear line over which one steps into religion. That is dispassionate science. It explains rather than judges.
So I would like to have a dispassionate explanation of NLP first, before it is trashed with scholarly quoted judgement.
However, I won't do it, because frankly, I have more important things to do in my life. I added this comment just to help save Wikipedia from bad reporting. Historia Errorem (talk) 00:34, 14 November 2012 (UTC)
I'm sorry but this whole first section hardly says anything on what NLP actually is. It seems like it was written only by people who are trying to prove that it is discredited. If people want to use Proper unbiased evidence that's fine but not at the expense of understanding of what NLP is or is supposed to be. If you look at pages related to Freudian subjects they don't seem to have the same burden. What is going on in those pages that prevents them looking like this page? If anybody can provide me with a specific answer I'd be much obliged. — Preceding unsigned comment added by [[Special:Contributions/An adaptive system] (talk) 00:11, 18 November 2012 (UTC)
Reviews of empirical research on NLP indicate that NLP contains numerous factual errors,[10][12] where in these 2 articles does it say that there are factual errors? Facts are what is, NLP deals with outcomes and ideas to help attain them The only facts you will need are the distinctions that you could make by using NLP skills, otherwise you are dealing with a sophisticated linguistics device. either way the claim that there are "factual errors" is not demonstrated here and if it is an offshoot from that link you should provide the correct link or change the article to 'articulate' more closely the authors opinion. Enemesis (talk) 03:05, 20 November 2012 (UTC)
I'm sorry I read those 2 articles and they in no way reflect factual errors. maybe you misunderstand fair interpretation of an article. read those links again there is no such allusion to "factual errors" 10 refers to the fact that they have not researched the topic enough, "paucity of data". the other does not mention NLP and if it does refer to NLP it does allude to the fact that the content is unbalanced but that will depend on the institutions you go to learn and what applications you would like to learn it for. "Concentrating primarily on techniques with strong claims for enhancing performance, the committee found little support for some (e.g., sleep learning, meditation, parapsychological techniques, hypnosis, total quality management)" who made these claims? are they relevant to this article? what is total quality management? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Parapsychological "The Parapsychological Association regards the results of parapsychologists' experiments as having demonstrated the existence of some forms of psychic abilities,[12] and proponents of parapsychology have seen it as an "embryo science",[13] a "frontier science of the mind",[14] and a "frontier discipline for advancing knowledge".[15] NLP to me has never said that there was an element of being psychic (that is reading someones thoughts from thinking about someone or seemingly from thin air), The founders do claim that your senses can become so attuned to distinctions ie. micro muscle and facial color changes that this is a pattern to observe and note to gauge the clients mood and his /her emotional associations from these distinctions and that from these distinctions that you may appear as if psychic but being "Psychic" is not the claim. other wise provide the link that says the founders have said that NLP is a way to become psychic otherwise either you or your source may have been confused as to what the claim actually means. Enemesis (talk) 04:04, 20 November 2012 (UTC)
Snowded said : "Its not for editors to evaluate a reliable source but to summarise what it says." what? the whole process is evaluating what the article says. What the subject matter is about and how it relates to the NLP article. You will now have to provide samples of claims about Parapsychology in NLP, sleep learning in NLP, meditation and total quality management to qualify the article as being a reliable resource. and by saying that you are saying what you have said it is not a reliable resource.Enemesis (talk) 04:04, 20 November 2012 (UTC)
You would also need to show that the research was emirical as was noted by me to be word that headleydown would use when editing the article. Enemesis (talk) 05:18, 20 November 2012 (UTC)
Dude, it's simple. Tell me where anyone said NLP made people psychic. Enemesis (talk) 05:27, 20 November 2012 (UTC)
Because its part of the whole sordid story with you and it makes sense to me. You are going to get all sorts of crazy claims from various NLPer's whether you chose the mainstream will depict this article. if you chose one or two and decide to have a general opinon and then let that be the general consensus then Im going to step in. make sure your opinions are consolidated upon the NLPer's consolidated opinions and claims or you are just being horribly manipulative. Enemesis (talk) 05:56, 20 November 2012 (UTC)
I have got to say you guys are rather paranoid and for no real reason. Enemesis (talk) 06:01, 20 November 2012 (UTC)
Snowded, I have not given up on the idea. You are a sockpuppet of headleydown who was run out of here in disgrace seeing as he could not be taken seriously on wikipedia altho had much fun with the damage that he had caused he could not stay away, you have returned on a more beuraucratic level . There are things that give it away your tone is very similar as is your content, links and bulldog attitude to doing things. I do understand now, the motives seem to be the same otherwise I would not understand the persistence on the article. Summer it is and always has been snowded who has a COI. I could provide documentation of proof but it would go against wikipedia policy which sucks. Now while I go on about this stuff you guys have managed to avoid the obvious questions above please address them accordingly or it is an admittance that you are not doing the right thing. Enemesis (talk) 08:40, 20 November 2012 (UTC)
Well, that's more than enough talking about other editors. If you have concerns about the sources provided, which I have quoted above, please explain. Do you believe they are not reliable sources? We can certainly take them to the noticeboard. If you do not believe it says what I have quoted it as saying, please explain how this is possible. If you have other concerns, please explain. In my opinion, the sources very clearly support the statement in the article. - SummerPhD (talk) 13:05, 20 November 2012 (UTC)
What kind of evidence do you need to describe a topic as "largely discredited"? It seems that there are academics who would disagree with that. In this book chapter, under "What is NLP?", Tosey describes it as "an emergent, contested approach". Is it clear that a debate about its credibility continues? --Reconsolidation (talk) 13:07, 20 November 2012 (UTC)
A sock puppetry case has been opened concerning some of the editing in this article. Interested editors are invited to comment at Wikipedia:Sockpuppet investigations/Enemesis. - SummerPhD (talk) 14:46, 21 November 2012 (UTC)
Have all the cited studies been done double blind, placebo controlled ,and with exact methodological reproducibility? If not i suggest you remove them or mention this lack of credibility. An adaptive system (talk) 02:06, 26 November 2012 (UTC)An adaptive system (talk) 08:04, 14 November 2012 (UTC)
Actually " neutral point of view (NPOV) means representing fairly, proportionately, and as far as possible without bias, all significant views that have been published by reliable sources. All Wikipedia articles and other encyclopedic content must be written from a neutral point of view." There is a definitive lack of "all significant views" that are published by "reliable" sources in this article. Mike00764 (talk) 13:40, 15 November 2012 (UTC)
If you agree that a proper methodology should be free from distortion, then the methodology of this article is not proper. Firstly, it does not define NLP, instead beginning with a huge and unsupported generalisation. Secondly, it ignores the area of NLP that has the greatest amount of reliable sources: the scientific reviews of the work of Milton Erickson. Thirdly, it is extremely selective in its choice of so-called "Reliable Sources". "Reliable" seems to mean those that support the editor's preconceptions. What are the editor's credentials in this area that give you the expertise to decide what is a "reliable source?" Cliftonconsulting (talk) 14:12, 24 November 2012 (UTC)
This article should be permanently semi-protected, so that IPs can't edit it. GoodDay (talk) 22:41, 23 November 2012 (UTC)
The article currently says "NLP finds its therapeutic roots by drawing influences from Gestalt therapy" citing Wake 2008. However, Wake states that "It is important to consider the historical background of the development of NLP, as NLP itself is not a psychotherapy, but has developed through Bandler and Grinder's modelling of the world of three therapists: Milton Erickson, a psychiatrist and hypnotherapist; Virginia Satir, a family therapy and Fritz Perls, a gestalt therapy."(p.14). --Reconsolidation (talk) 05:51, 24 November 2012 (UTC) I've made the adjustment to the article based on this quote. I think early history should be renamed to "Historical roots". Then we can focus on what the originators of NLP claim as their influences and what the various commentators have stated. Lisa Wake's book is mainly concerned with neuro-linguistic psychotherapy (NLPt) but also covers NLP in detail. The publisher Taylor & Francis is a respectable publisher. --Reconsolidation (talk) 06:15, 24 November 2012 (UTC)
I've started migrating to the new cite isbn and cite doi formats so it is easier to manage the citations in this article. Could you please help me out by filling in the isbn references that need completing. Also, please try to use these formats as you work on this and related articles. --Reconsolidation (talk) 13:38, 29 November 2012 (UTC)
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I would like to formally request the changing of the referring to the field of Neuro Linguistic Programming as "largely discredited" on the grounds that it not only is it untrue but arguably contentious, NLP is only discredited by those individuals who stand to lose by the field becoming prevalent, for instance those in the fields of applied psychology and counselors who charge patients vast sums of money, having them attend weekly sessions often costing what amounts to thousands of dollars, without any fundamental improvements taking place. NLP threatens because it treats people effectively and rapidly and does these professionals out of work, it is far more preferable for them to write in peer reviewed papers that is is discredited than admit that they are losing business to a field that treats patients far more effectively, NLP is prevalent in all areas of business and it's techniques are seen in fields ranging from sports to politics. To say that is is largely discredited is just an absolute fallacy and speaking to anyone in business or politics will confirm not only is it highly credited but the most effective method for personal enhancement
Savannahcharles (talk) 17:14, 30 November 2012 (UTC)
. Why exactly do we need to put it as "largely discredited" in the first sentence? That is something that could go to an request for comment (RfC). We need to reflect what the sources say according to their weight, and aim for a neutral point of view. There is a good guideline for writing about fringe topics which might help you better understand how this topic is to be handled. --Reconsolidation (talk) 21:40, 30 November 2012 (UTC)
tbh this to me has always been a very acceptable format/template for describing a film on wikipedia. ----> a typical article about a film on Wikipedia/Dark City . Notice the article Describes the film, it's different components (dispassionate of any outside views)it also has its own section on both its detractors and it's successes. This to me is a reliable wikipedian article and gives the audience freedom of choice. Enemesis (talk) 22:25, 30 November 2012 (UTC)
What we need is a complete format/template change that is both educational and enlightening for the audience for this article to work. Otherwise we could find people using this article and any of the source material attached as the total ideas for NLP, The audience may feel discouraged from and feel encouraged to be totally none the wiser on the subject matter. Enemesis (talk) 22:27, 30 November 2012 (UTC)
TBH, this article should be deleted, as it's not worth the fuss it apparently causes. How difficult can it be to 'balance' an intro? Jeepers. GoodDay (talk) 17:07, 1 December 2012 (UTC)
NPOV in respect of the sources Reconsolidation not the subject, as to Enemesis and OtterSmith, you are not allowed (here) to form your own conclusions as to what the sources means or the background beliefs or attitudes of those who wrote them. You have to find sources that draw such conclusions. OtterSmith, my point on the Surrey Source is that group also run a NLP consultancy business. ----Snowded TALK 05:47, 2 December 2012 (UTC)
The ArbCom rules that NLP should not be described as described as "unambiguously pseudoscientific". This is point of view and must be ascribed to a source. "Ascribing points of view 3) The article could more closely conform to neutral point of view by ascribing controversial viewpoints such as "NLP is pseudoscience" to those who have expressed such opinions, rather then presenting them as bald statements of fact. Passed 9-0"Wikipedia:Requests_for_arbitration/Neuro-linguistic_programming The same could be said to the opinion that NLP is "largely discredited". It needs to be ascribed to a source or at very least there needs to be a inline citation. Can we say there is "reasonable amount of academic debate"? A 5 minute search of Google Scholar reveals quite a few papers published in academic journals in the last few years...
How do we decide whether this is reasonable academic debate? This literature shows that it is being taken seriously by some academics. The focus certainly has not been empirical research but can we still say there is reasonable academic debate on the subject of NLP for the purposes of this article? --Reconsolidation (talk) 00:12, 3 December 2012 (UTC)
Snowded: "Case for disruptive behaviour is hardening." what the hell are you talking about. both you and Lam are very vague about these matters. You send pages that are longer than a short story and say its been coverred here here and here. In what section for bejebus? and to what extent is it coverred. It's just a quick conversation closer to move things in your direction. Please put a bit more thought into your answers so that we people can at least think your trying to work with the editors and so co-editors can give reasonable feedback to your answers. what kind of fools do you think are here? Enemesis (talk) 10:03, 3 December 2012 (UTC)
I did a search on Google Scholar for "Bandler and Grinder" today. There seems to be quite a few papers published in academic journals in different fields. The majority of these papers not empirical and discuss different aspects of it. There has been little support for NLP in the empirical literature. How do we decide on how much weight is given to the non-empirical literature. Is this list evidence of "reasonable debate" per WP:FRINGE on the topic? This is article dedicate to a non-mainstream topic so you cannot expect sources to meet Wikipedia:Identifying reliable sources (medicine) as was suggested earlier by Snowded and LKK. Sources dedicated to fringe topics are more relaxed to represent significant points of view. --Reconsolidation (talk) 15:56, 3 December 2012 (UTC)
"Its not a good example. Psychoanalysis has both conceptual and empirical support. There are controversies over the evidence base for CBT and so on, but overall nothing like the issues with NLP which is in the pseudo-science box on the basis of the evidence, so Astrology (which also relies on self-reported impact) is a closer match."
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I am a new account holder so I hope my request is appropriate! May I request that both the title and the first paragraph be edited in order to appropriately introduce the nature of the article? As it is not a description of NLP or it's approach as a methodology per say, might it be reasonable to suggest that the title and at the least the first paragraph be more of a lead in to the nature and purpose of the article? That way it would be less confusing and more informative to those researching NLP for the first time. It is clear to me that the author's purpose is to promote and advertise critiques against the subject, as opposed to offering a general reference article for the benefit of all readers, regardless of their opinion on the subject. Thanks. Affableparts (talk) 16:40, 5 December 2012 (UTC)
hi there wikipedia! I joined wikipedia to edit the page on neuro linguistic progamming due to its lack of information and bias. It puts NLP up in the spotlight in a very negative manner. Seeing as wikipedia is the ultimate encyclopedia on the internet I feel that this is a disservice to human knowledge. i am a professional that utilises NLP and would like to provide many other sources to balance it out. as you know it is semi protected. it also seems that this page has not been changed in a while yet from what i see on this talkpage is a lot of change wanted. could you may be let me know what is what with regards to no change being made etc? thank you for your time. Thomdez — Preceding unsigned comment added by Thomdez (talk • contribs) 16:00, 6 December 2012 (UTC) ok, i just saw why there is a problem with this page being fixed. took a lot of reading. hopefully this will be sorted. i have sources and recommendations if you want them but i will leave that until all the other disputes resolved. may be the page should be taken down until the disputes are dealt with. i think that would be the right thing to do in this situation. words are power after all. thank you for your time. please let me know. all the best. thomdez — Preceding unsigned comment added by Thomdez (talk • contribs) 16:30, 6 December 2012 (UTC)
I added a new reference to a new poll by Norcross et al. The Fala et al (2007/2008) poster or manuscript cited by in Glasner-Edwards et al 2010's list for addition treatment was eventually published by Norcross et al. in the Journal of Addiction Medicine - I put the doi in the page. We should move this to a section in the article on credibility and discuss it more broadly. --Reconsolidation (talk) 22:28, 29 November 2012 (UTC)
Summary of Norcross' delphi polls: "In research designed to establish expert-consensus of discredited treatments in evidence based practice (EBP), Norcross et al. (2006) [15] list NLP as possibly or probably discredited for treatment of behavioural problems, and Norcross et al. (2010)[18] for the treatment of drug and alcohol dependence it was rated as certainly discredited which was eighth in the list.[19]" --Reconsolidation (talk) 23:04, 29 November 2012 (UTC)
Its obvious who you are to anyone with familiarity with this article and as I say I can't see any reason for you to keep it a big secret, other than to allow you to constantly repeat the same edits. However if you want I'm happy to approach one of the Arbcom members to ask if they are prepared to listen to your case. ----Snowded TALK 16:42, 3 December 2012 (UTC)
It seems that there are several people holding similar Ideas and proposals. Is there any way to create a side page where we can workshop and refine these Ideas in an appropriate space, as there are rules about the scope of discussion on the talk page itself. An adaptive system (talk) 10:11, 6 December 2012 (UTC)An adaptive system
I typed this above in the section labelled "Openning section".
wow do I really have to repeat myself as above. The article explicitly says that there are weaknesses and strengths in the NLP model. The weaknesses aren't common teachings and the strengths are the applications it is designed for. So for one the article is not properly represented and two the claims you are making are not supported in the mainstream of NLP literature, teaching or leading Mentors in the field. Factual errors is also vague what are the factual errors? I think we can now begin to edit this part of the article for clarity and NPOV. We will get to other sections as time goes on Enemesis (talk) 02:55, 9 December 2012 (UTC)
Though I also suspect meat-puppetry among these many editors pushing for changing the intro; I do agree that largely discredited should be removed from the intro. I would feel the same if largely accepted were there. GoodDay (talk) 04:45, 9 December 2012 (UTC)
The pro-change editors should open up a Rfc on this article, instead of carrying out a slow edit-war? Otherwise, blocks should be considered for them. GoodDay (talk) 01:05, 9 December 2012 (UTC)
I wanted to find out about NLP. I can't see what it is for the criticism of it. I hope this article can be made more helpful and more well-rounded. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 121.75.90.169 (talk) 01:02, 11 December 2012 (UTC)
I have rarely if ever felt the need to post to a talk page, and am completely unfamiliar with the protocol for doing so. Just wanted to add that I also didn't really find what I was looking for on the page, and would appreciate some content contribution by people with knowledge of NLP. I know nothing about NLP, and after reading the article I don't know much more. I appreciate the well-researched criticism, but it's hard to get a grip on what is being criticized. Keith Campbell - www.pathstoknowledge.com (talk) 22:19, 13 December 2012 (UTC)
I work on leads a lot, and I edited the first sentence to make it describe the subject better. It's NPOV to say that NLP is "largely discredited" because our reliable sources say exactly that. NPOV means reporting what the RS's say without a POV distortion. The RSs say that it's largely discredited, if not entirely. Leadwind (talk) 23:40, 11 November 2012 (UTC)
I'm afraid that 90% of reliable sources are not an experts in NLP, They are experts in other fields that are commenting on what they believe is NLP. Would you ask a farmer to fix your truck or would you ask a mechanic?
Has anyone noticed, that there is nothing about what NLP actually is in this article?
I am an expert in NLP and yet I'm getting stonewalled at every corner even though I'm following wikipedia protocal to best of my newbie knowledge. All I'm wanting to do is include what nlp is..not what people claim it can or can't do. Things like NLP well formed goal setting, eye accessing cues, rapport building and maybe a quick explanation of the NLP decision making process(meta model). I just want to say what it is.... nothing else. let people decide if it's useful or not. Instead I get NLP is a largely dicredited approach to..... let's forget about an explanation of what nlp is and just jump into the biased sources of non-nlp experts. The sources in the article are not porportionately balanced and represent only those 'anti nlp' views and from what I have experienced, every effort is being used to keep any positive nlp information from being included. Even most of the reliable sources in this article are from people who haven't even taken an NLP course.
The article is called 'Neuro Linguistic Programming' not Anti- Neuro Linguistic Programming. I'm a Christian and I can tell you I'm scared to death to look anything to do with my faith on wiki because of how totally biased and plagued with opinions wiki really is. Just an idea how about we all go old school and make 'neutral' neutral again. not just in this article but all of them and that would include making sure all sources are neutral or well balanced. Mike00764 (talk) 13:27, 15 November 2012 (UTC)
This is a horribly written article, especially the lead. Someone (Leadwind?) who does not like NLP has taken ownership of the article and has twisted the whole thing into an attack. To say that many of the critical readings of NLP are critical is as an obvious tautology as you can get. They are not neutral, so claiming that repeating them is NPOV is absurd. This kind of behaviour undermines Wikipedia and shows a very weak understanding of what an encyclopaedia article should be. Sleeping Turtle (talk) 19:30, 20 November 2012 (UTC)
OMG this article is an example of why Wikipedia is going to go down hill. People with an opinion who absolutely will not accept that their opinion might not be correct, just because they can find lots of other 'reliable' sources who agree with their opinion. I'm neither for or against NLP. I am against people who cannot writereasonable, impartial articles. I'll edit the first line to remove the subjective bit, but I'm sure the people who have set themselves up as 'guardians' of Wikipedia will accuse me of vandalism. Actually I don't know why I bother. Jimjamjom —Preceding undated comment added 21:05, 14 December 2012 (UTC)
As someone who knows nothing about the subject, and came here only by curiosity, I can say I read most of the article, and still don't know what NLP is. Shame on thy who wrote the article, it's supposed to tell people what NLP is and what is it used for, not tell us what other people think about it as central topic (Excuse my poor english please). — Preceding unsigned comment added by 190.21.162.202 (talk) 05:01, 15 December 2012 (UTC)
Leadwind, what is NPOV? What are the "Reliable Sources" which say that NLP is 'Largely discredited'? Where are those studies which show that NLP sources are 'credible'? What does "RS" mean? Umesh Soman (talk) 11:39, 22 December 2012 (UTC)
I am a trainer, consultant by profession, and I study a lot of different areas that can affect human performance. NLP is one of them. And so far, I have come acroos different research projects, which are also available online, which neither conclusively prove that NLP is totally credible, and neither conclusively prove that NLP is "largely discreditable". Umesh Soman (talk) 11:39, 22 December 2012 (UTC)
Given that there are so many research based sources out there which are providing evidence both for and against, isn't there an unneccesary negative bias thats added here to this article by starting with "Largely Discredited" ? Umesh Soman (talk) 11:39, 22 December 2012 (UTC)
The better way is to list sources which discredit NLP, if you feel so strongly. So, what are those sources? And would you be open to changing your approach if we list reliable studies which support the credibility of NLP ? Umesh Soman (talk) 11:39, 22 December 2012 (UTC)
The main problem with the first sentence is that the editor has confused applications of NLP with the core of NLP. This is akin to evaluating a motor car by the number of road traffic accidents and is very poor logic. One of the founders of NLP, John Grinder, eluded to this when he warned people: "The inability to distinguish either behaviourally or cognitively the consequences and applications of NLP (Neuro-Linguistic Programming) from core NLP itself (modelling of excellence) is extremely commonplace." It appears the editor of this page has made that same mistake.
Please correct the result of your confusion! NBOliver (talk) 16:10, 22 December 2012 (UTC)
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