Talk:Music of ancient Greece/Archive 1
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This is an archive of past discussions about Music of ancient Greece. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 1 |
I have started to expand this article as requested. I cut the bit of text that was here already and wrote a new lead plus part of a section. The other sections are in outline form with "(in progress)" to indicate that I am working on it. I put in a bibliography section that will serve for refs and notes and futher reading. I left the original references at the bottom since they may serve for the article later on. All help is welcome. Jeffmatt 07:37, 8 March 2006 (UTC)
I expanded the original item, added a few trial photos, and have started referencing and notes. It is a long way from finished, but is, I think, no longer rudimentary, and possibly useful to readers even as is; thus, I took off the tag. I have also left "in progress" notes at various points in the text. Jeffmatt 16:09, 9 March 2006 (UTC)
I added a "ancient music" footer at the end as opposed to a musicbox at the top. Trying to make these "Ancient music" items into a series. Jeffmatt 14:22, 18 March 2006 (UTC)
Although there is a reasonable consensus among musicologists that "there is no evidence that the sequence of notes in any given scale "naturally" corresponds to a particular emotion or characteristic of personality" it is still not one that would be considered as universally excepted. Although I shall not edit I'd recommend either changing "no evidence" into "no strong evidence" or at least referencing someone who conforms the claim. 220.240.54.185 13:36, 22 October 2006 (UTC)
Perhaps there is more than just a degree of doubt on this matter. In Aristotle's 'Politics' 1338a-1340b[1] he discusses how Mixolydian, Dorian and Phrygian 'represent different states of character'. --Jlowther91 (talk) 03:46, 30 March 2010 (UTC)
I never quite understood the concepts of harmonia and tonoi, neither did, it would seem, the Greeks themselves. I haven’t done any original research on the topic but according to Isobel Henderson (referenced below) the contemporary writers themselves used these terms to mean different things without explanation[2]. However, weren't the tone species themselves named 'Mixolydian', 'Dorian', 'Hypodorian' etc? I'm not writing in order to try and correct you. I'd like an explanation myself.--Jlowther91 (talk) 00:46, 7 April 2010 (UTC)
For what it's worth, the article is mistaken to claim without qualification that the Dorian mode was thought to be 'harsh.' In Politics 8.5, Aristotle associates it with a "middling and settled condition." [djr]
References
I'm not sure. Maybe I'm being too harsh on the broadness. I'll leave it for the next reviewer to decide. 14:16, 26 October 2006 (UTC)
Isn't "Ancient Greece" a title in itself, like Rennaisance Europe? I have *never* seen ancient uncapitalised in this phrase outside of here. Adam Cuerden talk 11:37, 9 November 2006 (UTC)
I see that considerable effort has been put into this article, which I appreciate. I'm sure anyone would learn a lot from the article.
However, the main problem is the stand the author is taking through the article. Anything statement that seems to take a Point of View must be referenced. It starts with Much of what defines western European culture in terms of philosophy, science, and the arts has origins in the culture of ancient Greece. I might not disagree, but I think sentences like these should be toned down. There are other examples. Already in lead, e.g. The very word music, itself, comes from the muses, the daughters of Zeus and patron goddesses of creative and intellectual endeavours. should be toned down as The word music comes from muses, the daughters of Zeus and patron goddesses of creative and intellectual endeavours. -- and it should have a reference added.
The word we and our is used a lot in the text. Who is "we"? In general, avoid this word.
The author is wanting to make a point also with this sentence: People, almost universally, seem disposed to recognize as consonant, for example, intervals of octaves, fifths and fourths.[3] They don't know--and don't care--that the arithmetic ratios that describe those intervals are 2:1, 3:2 and 3:4, respectively. which must be considered inappropriate since it isn't referenced. The first sentence is, but not the second sentence or the rest of the paragraph. Did Trehub actually say that people don't know and don't care about the arithmetic ratios?
There are probably other examples, but you get the point.
The use of images could be improved. Best not to put images on both right and left side on the same paragraph (see WP:MOS#Images) -- these is a reason for this, you can see a screenshot from my screen here. Disturbing for me to try and read that section....
Fred-Chess 09:59, 18 November 2006 (UTC)
154.5.129.105 01:06, 2 May 2007 (UTC)----154.5.129.105 01:06, 2 May 2007 (UTC)----154.5.129.105 01:06, 2 May 2007 (UTC)----154.5.129.105 01:06, 2 May 2007 (UTC)----154.5.129.105 01:06, 2 May 2007 (UTC)
Yes, such personal opinions as " People, almost universally, seem disposed to recognize as consonant, for example, intervals of octaves, fifths and fourths.[3] They don't know--and don't care--that the arithmetic ratios that describe those intervals are 2:1, 3:2 and 3:4, respectively." are completely inappropriate and are likely motivated by a desire to fabricate a peerage for some contemporary music or view of music. Dreadfully out of place here, and rank historical revisionism as well, for something striking about ancient Greece is how much, and with what great precision, practical musical mathematics WERE documented. Apparently the author of this statement does not realize that the ratios discussed apply to string lengths, frets, placement of finger-holes on aulos, etc. In other words, yes "people", including the ancient Greeks, most certainly do and did care to stop a string at the halfway point (ratio of 2:1) in order to sound an octave, rather than just stick their finger any old place and hope for the best (not that such behaviour is always inappropriate in other circumstances. Or so I have heard). Frank Zamjatin (talk) 15:40, 31 May 2010 (UTC)
Amazing how much very non-NPOV editorializing (and exhibition of lack of knowledge) has floated for so long in this article. Time to clean up...Frank Zamjatin (talk) 14:01, 10 June 2008 (UTC)
Please forgive me for barging in on an article long in the making, but I really thought an article on Music in Ancient Greece should have an image from Greek antiquity at the top (hence the new image of Apollo there). I enjoy seeing the interpretations of later periods, but I think it's especially dubious to lead off with one with a whacking anachronism when there are so many images available to illustrate musical instruments in their own time period. I moved the Piero di Cosimo image to a space farther down, and also attempted to adjust the smaller images on the page to align better with the relevant text, including placing the panpipes with the image of pan. Not sure I succeeded in my aims, so apologies if I've been precipitous. Cynwolfe (talk) 19:10, 24 September 2008 (UTC)
It might also be worthwhile to swap out for an image of the Muses from antiquity. For instance, Image:Muses sarcophagus Louvre MR880.jpg; single muse with lyre, Image:Muse lyre Louvre CA482.jpg and Image:Mousai Helikon Staatliche Antikensammlungen Schoen80 n1.jpg, with nice cutout full view of vase at Image:Mousai Helikon Staatliche Antikensammlungen Schoen80 full.jpg Cynwolfe (talk) 20:25, 24 September 2008 (UTC)
should we add a section on things like the Epitaph of Seikilos?
I'd like to suggest moving the sections on Harmonia, Melos and Ethos from both Musical_mode and Musical_system_of_ancient_greece to this page since the discourse here is about culture broadly speaking and the discussion in the two aforementioned more technical.Mwasheim (talk) 22:46, 12 January 2010 (UTC)
There is a geat deal of "personal essay" writing here. Now, I happen to agree with quite a bit of what is written, but that is not the point, and this style is not appropriate to Wikipedia. So, I will try to remove the most blatant personal-essay writings here, but try to keep its content in the cases in which it can be clearly and cleanly supported by mainstream academic literature.
At the top of this talk page, I noticed that the article was previously for GA status- albeit a decade ago. I saw the link for the revision of that tine, that was evaluated [and rejected], on the bottom left of the template. The the actual assessment appears to be deprecated, or is at least not accessible per any of those links. But perhaps I'm simply not seeing it.
Thus my question: Does anyone know where I might find the Good Article assessment subpage? Should it still, I mean. I'd like to the reviewer's comments as a jumping off point for any further expansion/revision. Thanks in advance to the helpful person who can provide some direction in this regard. Quinto Simmaco (talk) 06:14, 11 June 2016 (UTC)
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On the face of it, this appears to be a false disjunction. If a prosodion usually preceded a paean then, in such a case, it was followed by a paean. I am tempted to assume that a prosodion preceded or followed a paean but what, then, is the implication of "usually"? Did the prosodion usually precede a paean or, less often, follow it? Or is it simply the case that there was usually (but not always) a paean, either before or after the prosodion? GrounderUK (talk) 13:47, 7 April 2020 (UTC)
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