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I wonder is anyone will object to my redirecting Messianic Judaism Here. Hebrew Chrsitianity does seem to be the more PC term.Zestauferov 06:05, 15 Aug 2004 (UTC)
If there are any objections of course please feel free to undo.Zestauferov 06:08, 15 Aug 2004 (UTC)
Hebrew Christianity is not the same as Messianic Judaism. Hebrew Christianity is an old term for a congregational movement of Jews who believe in Jesus. Hebrew Christianity differs from Messianic Judaism in that it was more evangelistic and did not adopt Jewish practice.
Please don't take this personally, Sam, as you're not the first to suggest this merger. I have reverted the comment, however, as I know quite a lot of people in both the Messianic and Hebrew Christian movements, and many if not most of them would not agree that they are one and the same thing. Messianic Jews and Hebrew Christians have a lot in common: both are (mostly) persons of acknowledged birth or ancestry who (a) believe that Yeshua/Jesus is the Messiah, and (b) are proud of their Jewish heritage and want to retain it. But there are also significant differences between the two movements - differences that are big enough to justify the case for separate classification, in my opinion. A parallel case would be Baptists and Methodists: both are Protestants, but that doesn't make them the same thing, and Wikipedia rightly has separate articles for those two denominations.
I'm grossly oversimplifying things, I know, but in a nutshell:
The boundary between the two movements is blurred; some individuals (e.g. Moishe Rosen) seem to straddle it effortlessly, but it is there nonetheless. Because of the differences between the two movements, I do not think it fair to treat them as one, any more than I would treat Baptists and Methodists as a single entity. David Cannon 05:29, 26 Dec 2004 (UTC)
When my wife and I were looking for a church home eight years ago, she came across a denominational listing, "Messianic Synagogues". She asked, "What are they?" I answered, "Jews who follow Jesus". What I meant was, "Jews who practice Judaism and follow Jesus". I figured that if they called it a synagogue, they practiced Judaism, even if the yellow pages didn't exactly see it that way. If the OU rejects our claims to be a Judaism, then we must also have the ability to reject the claims of others practice "Messianic Judaism".
If we admit that the term "Messianic Judaism" is not a contradiction in terms, then as a matter of English construction, it refers to a Judiasm which honors the Galilean as Messiah. The problem is that this is a very young movement, and bottom-up. We did not start as an academic disagreement, ala Lutheranism, but as individuals who realized that they don't see things the same way that others in their prior groups do.
Whatever this is, it is in no way "Evangelical Christianity".
The youngness of the movement, its bottom-up evolution, and the natural tendency of continuum make this problemactic, because it seems likely to me that most self-professed practitioners of Messianic Judaism are in fact practicing Evangelical or Charismatic Christianity with minor changes.
To me, the question should be answered anthropologically. Is there a group of religious adherants whose practice and beliefs differ from various forms of Judaism about as much as these forms vary from each other while accepting the Galilean as the Messiah? If so, then that group should be classicified as "Messianic Judaism" whether or not it is accepted (a political issue) by these groups. Please note that there is a whole lot of rejecting of various groups as "legitamate Judaisms" by other groups within Judiasm.
Likewise, a "church in a prayer shall" would be Hebrew Christian.
Which brings up the whole "Jews for Jesus" thing. I don't blame an uneducated person for classifying them as a part of Messianic Judaism, but they reject Torah & want to see Jews in Church. How can this be a Judaism? (I accept Torah & want to see Gentiles in synagogue, btw.)
I've edited the beliefs statement to reflect the "Torah pole" mentioned in the article.
NathanZook 04:24, 21 Mar 2005 (UTC)
I dislike the term "Messianic Judaism" being used exclusively to refer to those who follow a particular Messiah. Certianly Rabbi Akiva, who kicked out the followers of the Nararene in favor of his messiah has equal title. But we are stuck with an imperfect use-mention. I know of no competing term. Actually, the term "Christian" is almost as bad, since "Christ" is merely Greek for "Messiah".
Not for those of us who pray from the Artscroll Sidur! I fully agree that many people who say they practice Messianic Judaism would recoil if you say, "Oh, so what you do is a form of Judaism?" Likewise, many might accept the term "Hebrew Christian" for themselves or even claim that they are equivalent. (If either of us thought they were, we would be done...)
I understand that you would like for us to accept the term "Hebrew Christian". But we cannot, for reason previously stated. NathanZook
When I read the Thirteen Principles the first time, my immediate reaction was, "This looks like a point-by-point refutation of Scholasticism". That's of course not entirely accurate. For purposes of our discussion, however, I submit that Reformed, Reconstructionist, and Humanist Judaism (and probably even Conservative) are going to have at least as much trouble with this (minimal) formulation of medevial Judaism as I am. My only problem is with #7, which I can skate if I have to. NathanZook 08:12, 27 Mar 2005 (UTC)
Maybe I can break an impasse. Do you consider Jacov ha Tzadik (James the Elder) and the "myriads zealous for Torah" around 50 CE to have been members of a Jewish sect? If not, you argue against their contemporaries. If so, then you agree that a Jewish sect can accept the Nazarene as Messiah, Messiah as "Son of God", and the writings of Paul as scripture. Yes, I'm reaching back a long ways. But I have to. I disagree with almost everything that has happened since then.
1) I disagree that you must accept Bar Kokhba as Messiah to stay in the Jewish community. (Our rejection is what got us kicked out.) 2) I disagree that either the Nazarene or Paul ever intended their followers to abandon Torah. 3) I disagree with the move from Sabbath to Sunday, (good book, btw) and from Passover to Easter. Let alone Christmas and the rest. 4) I reject the authority of the so-called Ecumenical councils. I reject the "two natures" formulation of the Chalcedon Council, and have serious problems with usual formulation of the Trinity. (I really like what Kaballah has to say on it, btw.) 5) I reject dispensationalism and replacement theology.
In short, my disagreements with Christianity go back to within 75 years of my disagreements with Traditional Judaism, and they do so in a manner that consistently prefers Judaism.
--Jayjg (talk) 14:59, 22 Mar 2005 (UTC)
Actually, Dr. Michael White in Jesus to Christianity makes a very strong case that Paul's innovations were pretty much confined to bring Torah to the Gentiles (who needed a LOT of help) without requiring conversion to Judaism.
2) By this point, most Gentile proto-Christians did nothing to support the Bar Kokhba revolt. The Jewish ones did, until Rabbi Akiva declared (not "contemplated", as the [Bar Kokhba] page erroneously asserts) that he was Messiah & that to support the revolt was to support him as Messiah. That was when the "Nazarenes" got kicked out of Judaism. In a few decades they would be effectively kicked out of Christianity.
My definition of Messianic Judaism? A Judaism that honors Torah--written, oral, and made flesh. I'm not alone, btw. A recent posting for a rabbinic position at one of our (UMJC) congregations stated, "applicants must have a high opinion of Oral Torah." How many Reformed Rabbis make that cut?
I'm not sure that I can accept the charge that I was "attracted" to Messianic Judaism. I reached a point in my walk where I would have willed it into existance if it were not already there. What I mean is that I came to the conclusion that the Christian repudiation of the Feasts in particular & Torah in general was unwarranted (and with tragic results), and does not please God, that my only real problem with traditional Judaism is its rejection of the Nazarene (and its hoarding of Torah). That is, I wanted a Judaism that honored the Nazarene as Messiah.
Yes, our congregations are by and large majority Gentile. I believe Rashi said the ratio would be about 280,000 to 1. But just as there are majority Jewish organizations that are refered to as "goyish", the opposite is possible. In this last statement, you seem to demand that there be no place between Hebrew Christianity (as mentioned above) and traditional Judaism. That was probably almost true up until the 1960's, but "times, they are a-changin'".
Again, this movement is not a denominational split within Christianity or Judaism. It is an organic movement which is very much in the process of defining itself. People whose beliefs have not changed have nevertheless changed their self-identification. People whose beliefs have changed radically have clung to their old self-identification. While there were a few prior pioneers, this movement is in practice less than forty years old. Was Christianity well-defined by the fall of the second Temple? Did Luther, et al have their doctrines in place in forty years? I think that an accurate description needs to emphasize the youth of this development, so far as religious movements go.
Don't forget--it's "Blessed is Mordichai, cursed is Haman".
NathanZook 04:11, 22 Mar 2005 (UTC)
I object strenously to the tone and implications of the overview, as well as several parts of the body. I'm not stupid enough (nor properly prepared by my own estimation) to attempt a major rewrite of any portion myself, though, so I felt it best to come here and attempt to address specific concerns. NathanZook 00:31, 28 Mar 2005 (UTC)
It is plain from some of your edits and comments that many of you have had little or no contact with our leaders. I understand that many of you consider what we do to be illegitemate. I feel the same way about many others, perhaps some of you. But your non-npov edits do nothing to aid your cause. While I don't accept responsibility for other's edits, I base mine on first-hand observation. Please leave your polemics off the main page.
All religous movements have their fringe elements and evolve over time. This movement is quite young. You could argue that the formation of the UMJC in the mid 80's represented the formal inception of Messianic Judaism as separate from Hebrew Christianity. There is still a tremendous debate about what should be called Messianic Judaism. When I find a link refering to itself as "Messianic Jewish" in some way, I immediately check to see if they consider themselves to be part of Judaism, and their view of Torah. If their answers aren't "yes" and "high", then I consider them to be Hebrew Christian and confused. Aren't we to give others the benefit of the doubt? NathanZook 23:30, 18 January 2006 (UTC)
I don't know why someone insists on deleting my comments when you make statements such as this.
a) I have had plenty of contacts with some of your highest leaders. I can tell you that they present a lot of "information" as factual, however they do not allow any open debate. If someone does try to debate them, that person is quickly ridiculed, and excommunicated. Also, members of the cult are told that that person is "negative" and "evil".
b) Polemics - I have never seen more Polemics against rabbis and Judaism, than inside a Messianic group.
c) Judaism does not consider Messianicism a part of them. However, Messianics are considered by Christians and Jews alike to be part of Christianity. This can be evidenced by the large funding of Messianicism by Organized Christianity (to the tune of $100s of millions), and by the fact that Pastors are called to speak in Messianic congregations, and vice versa.
d) There is hardly any group today that can truly be called "Messianic". In fact, Messiah is just a work used instead of "Christ", to make Jews feel more comfortable in their choice to convert to Christianity. The majority of Messianics worship Jesus as God, not Messiah. This, by definition, IS CHRISTIANITY, regardless of how you name it otherwise.
e.g. Presbytarians, Baptists, etc. doesn't have Christian in their name, but they are Christians nonetheless because they worship Christ. I can find you written documentation from inside of Messianic organizations, showing that they chose to use to the word Messiah instead of the word Christ. Therefore, they are fundamentally the same as Hebrew Christian. OpenInfo 15:32, 27 January 2006 (UTC)
I think this article overlooked the fact that Messianic "Judaism" is used as a method of resolving intermarriage conflicts where one spouse is Jewish (usually a member of the Reform movement), and the other spouse is Christian (church-going).
This allows the church-going spouse to attend a congregation that is acceptable to them, since Messianic worship usually involves singing songs about Jesus.
It also allows the Reform Jewish spouse to attend a congregation that has the word "Jewish" in it's name, therefore making them feel its acceptable, even though they know its wrong.
There is no Messianic "Judaism" close to Orthodox Judaism. It is merely a simulation of Judaism (as is the whole Messianic movement). The entire intent of this movement was created to deceive Jews into converting to Christianity.
Actually, there is a group planning this thing. It is called the MJAA (Messianic "jewish" Alliance of America), and they are funded in excess of $150 million a year by Baptist organizations, in addition to billions of dollars in funding by private and other donations, within the Christian community and their own members. OpenInfo 20:34, 19 January 2006 (UTC)
"Messiah" = "Yeshua" = Jesus = Christ
Messianic = Jesus worship = Christianity
Christianic Judaism??? It's an oxymoron.
It's good to hear that you no longer believe in Jesus !!! (As you are saying, you now have a Jewish view of Messiah, which is that he has not arrived yet).
No , that's the Rabbinic Judaic view of Yeshua/Jesus, not necessarily the Jewish view of him.
read the Messianic Haggadah. It is a holiday to celebrate and talk about Jesus. It is unrelated to the Jewish holiday of Pesach.
I am the one who nominated this article to be reviewed for its neutrality. This was mostly due to edits posted by NathanZook, who claim to have a NPOV, when in fact he is editing this article to remove factual information that disagrees with his own poin of view.OpenInfo 20:34, 19 January 2006 (UTC)
QUOTE FROM NathanZook: "While I don't accept responsibility for other's edits, I base mine on first-hand observation."
Sorry to say, but this actually violates Wikipedia's "No Original Research" policy. The editors of this page should be reviewing the article and removing any of these "first-hand observations". Instead, some of the research can be used, based on organizations that do research and study these missionary groups.
Nobody mentioned baptists in this section, however since you are talking about Baptists and the UMJC leaders, the UMJC was CREATED by Baptist and Presbytarian evangelists. If UMJC leaders are criticizing Baptists, then they only criticize themselves. OpenInfo 14:19, 20 January 2006 (UTC)
There are no polemics involved on my end. All posts I have made were based on external research, and reinforced by contact made with leaders in high ranking within the MJAA.
Keep in mind, that I am not a member of any Jewish group, nor am I a member of any Messianic group, nor do I have anything to do with the MJAA. However, I have had extensive dealings with leadership in both groups(Reform Jewish, Conservative Jewish, and Orthodox Jewish, as well as within the "Messianic" groups). Therefore, I am posting from a NPOV, as well as with an informed POV. OpenInfo 20:34, 19 January 2006 (UTC)
The closest one can say that these congregations get to "acting Jewish" would be Reform Judaism. Even then, with all the talk about Jesus, one cannot say they are Jewish at all.OpenInfo 20:34, 19 January 2006 (UTC)
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