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This is an archive of past discussions about Leo Ryan. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 1 | Archive 2 |
Dear Friends,
I researched a documentary film on Jonestown a few years ago, and during that job I spoke to some relatives of Larry Layton, to one victim of his violence, and also to one of the lawyers who represented him.
Larry was a prisoner of 18 years whose worst offence in prison was to return a library book late. A key reason why he was realeased is that a parole hearing took place very shortly after 9/11. Jackie Speier, who was badly wounded at the airstrip, is now a major figure in the government of California. She had always argued against Layton's release, but this time, she had other pressing duties because of 9/11.
At the hearing, a key witness was Vernon Gosney, who was shot by Layton at the Port Kaituma scene. Gosney argued that he could not bear that one man should suffer for all the crimes of Jim Jones. Vernon Gosney is now a police officer, living with AIDS, in the state of Hawaii.
Layton has worked at lousy retail jobs since his release, and he absolutely never talks about Jonestown, in spite of the enormous Media attention of recent years. I have spoken to a few of his relatives, and they all say that Larry will just shake his head and decline to comment, even to them. The only exceptions I know of are to his sister (Debbie Layton) and to his lawyers, and then only in refernce to his legal affairs.
Sincerely yours, Robert P. Helms —The preceding unsigned comment was added by BobHelms (talk • contribs) 00:33, 14 March 2007 (UTC).
Hello Friends,
I researched a film about Jonestown a few years ago, and in the process I spoke with two of Leo Ryan's daughters, as well as other paople close to the congressman. I am writing to note that Leo was a positively charismatic person, and that his daughters told me that his little speech on the evening before his death was perhaps not as relaxed as people who did not know the man would assume. They felt that he showed signs of pressure that one would not notice unless they knew him personally.
I think that it is also important to know that Ryan was married more than twice, and that at least one of his several children was or is a member of a cult. This has played into the after-story of Jonestown a great deal.
Sincerely, Robert P. Helms
Great article, but I noticed that it claimed Leo Ryan was the first member of Congress killed in the line of duty. Technically, a senator can sometimes be referred to as a member of Congress. In 1860, sitting U.S. senator Edward Baker was shot at the battle of Ball's Bluff. So I changed it to member of the House of Representatives. see http://blueandgraytrail.com/photo/9 71.198.36.27 06:32, 1 May 2007 (UTC)
I archived an old FA nom discussion (failed), to Wikipedia:Featured article candidates/Leo Ryan/Archive1. This was waaaay before I came upon this article and expanded it to its current (57) citations. Smee 21:51, 9 May 2007 (UTC).
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(help) -- Talks about Ryan Act of 1970 ...{{cite book}}
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(help)CS1 maint: location (link) -- Also discusses Ryan Act.Smee 07:01, 12 May 2007 (UTC).
If it is true that Ryan was an outspoken critic of Scientology, the fact seems to have gone unnoticed by the Scientologists. Freedom magazine, a Scientology publication, issued a glowing report on the congressman, emphasizing his efforts to shine a light on CIA involvement in psychiatric mind control operations like MK Ultra, and calling for further investigation into unresolved factors regarding his death.
The Freedom article also happens to contain the transcript of an interview with the medical examiner at the scene of the Jonetown incident. This transcript provokes some interesting questions which seem to be quite worthy of mention in the Wikipedia article but are at this point omitted.
Due to the obvious value of interviews such as that mentioned as well as of one or more other key personnel, pages at the UCSD website of an investigative project into the Jonestown incidents cite the Freedom magazine article in several places.
Please correct me if I'm wrong, but is it not strange that this Wikipedia article is devoid of such treatment?
-Tmst —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Tmst8 (talk • contribs) 05:12, 13 May 2007 (UTC).
Congress of the United states House of Representatives December 10, 1976
Dear Ida Camburn,
Thank you for your very detailed letter regarding Scientology. We haven't yet found a way to attack these jackals who feed on children and young adults who are too emotionally weak to stand by themselves when they reach the age of consent.
It's too bad there isn't a 20th Century Charles Dickens to write about the terrible destruction of these 20th Century fagins who make themselves rich while they destroy the psyche of so many.
At the present time, I can only encourage you to do more of what you have been doing.
Sincerely yours Leo J Ryan Member of Congress
With regard to the sentence "According to the San Francisco Chronicle, while investigating the events, the United States Department of State 'repeatedly stonewalled Ryan's attempts to find out what was going on in Jonestown', and told him that 'everything was fine.'" I realize that author Mark Simon characterized it this way in short conclusory fashion in 1998, but it's not really accurate. What really happened is that State briefed Ryan on pretty much everything they knew, which was limited, and explained that international and U.S. law prevented the U.S. government from doing much more in Guyana than surface inquiries regarding potential social security check coercion, customs and immigration issues. An argument could be made that the State Department didn't vigorously interview enough people before (they did interview 75 Jonestown members in 1978), but they didn't really stonewall Ryan. Also, McCoy, Dwyer and Burke didn't tell Ryan "everything was fine" (regardless of Simon's characterization), but instead said that they didn't have any indication from visits and interviews that people were being held against their will. I would delete that sourced sentence and include another explaining what actually happened. Mosedschurte (talk) 06:06, 14 May 2008 (UTC)
Among the victims was Congressman Leo Ryan, the first Member of Congress ever killed in the line of duty.
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(help) (archived page, alternate link, PDF Congressional Record)Ryan, the only member of Congress ever killed in the line of duty, was succeeded in a special election by a Republican, but Lantos won a Democratic primary in 1980, beat the GOP incumbent and has never looked back.
Ryan is the only member of Congress to have been killed in the line of duty and was posthumously recognized in the 1980s with a congressional award presented by then-President Ronald Reagan.
Six years later, 32-year-old Shannon Jo Ryan joined other family members in the White House Oval Office, where President Reagan presented them with Ryan's posthumous Congressional Gold Medal, honoring the only member of Congress ever killed in the line of duty .
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suggested) (help)Ryan was recently awarded a posthumous Medal of Honor, and was the first Congress member to die in the line of duty.
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suggested) (help)In 1972, voters picked Leo Ryan, a Democrat from South San Francisco who had served 10 years in the state Assembly. Ryan three times won re-election by wide margins before traveling to Jonestown, Guyana in 1978 to investigate the People's Temple Cult. There he was ambushed and killed by cult members, making him the only member of Congress to die in the line of duty.
But in 1978, Democrat Leo J. Ryan became the first and only congressman killed in the line of duty, murdered in Guyana when he went to investigate whether Americans were being held against their will by cult leader Jim Jones. Ryan was gunned down just before Jones engineered a mass suicide among his followers.
Ryan, a Democrat from California and the only member of Congress in modern times to be killed in the line of duty, was shot to death while in Guyana after visiting Jonestown. His death touched off the mass suicides of Jones and 912 of his religious followers at their Jonestown camp.
Ryan, D-Calif., became the first member of Congress ever killed in the line of duty when he went to visit the cult, whose members included many constituents from his San Francisco congressional district.
All of this, many charge, influenced our government's handling of Congressman Ryan's visit to Jonestown. Although Guyanese officials initially promised full cooperation of the Congressional staff investigating Representative Ryan's murder, the government of Forbes Burnham suddenly reversed itself and cited protocol as its reason for refusing to discuss Jonestown or Ryan's visit with any Congressional representative. It's another major gap in the investigation of the death of the only American Congressman to ever be killed in the line of duty. - Ron Miller
Ryan was the first congressman in the history of the United States to be assassinated while conducting an official investigation in the line of duty. He undertook the investigation in reports of torture and mind-control at the colony as a member of the House Foreign Affairs Committee.
Rep. Leo Ryan had become the first and only congressman ever assassinated in the line of duty. He, his aides, some journalists and a few defectors from cult leader Jim Jones' Peoples Temple had been ambushed by gunmen on an airstrip near Jonestown, the primitive enclave where Jones had brought hundreds of his followers.
Congressman Ryan was gunned down, having been shot 40 times. The first and only congressman in the history of this country to be assassinated during the line of duty.
Cult members shot and killed the four as they were trying to leave the airstrip in Port Kaituma, Guyana, on Saturday, Nov. 18, 1978. Ryan was the first member of Congress ever assassinated in the line of duty.
See above sources. Cirt (talk) 09:17, 2 September 2008 (UTC)
I'd advise people making the claim that Ryan is the only man with this unwanted distinction to look at the list here http://digital.library.unt.edu/govdocs/crs/data/2002/meta-crs-2269.tkl , for example. George Leland and George Heinke were clearly killed while carrying out Congressional duties, and it's likely that some of the other persons killed in plane crashes died while commuting between Washington and their home districts as part of their job. James McPherson Pinckney was killed in a manner broadly similar to Ryan: the list gives little detail, but he was murdered by anti-Prohibitionists while he attended a meeting whose purpose was to draft a petition to ensure that a recently passed Prohibition law was enforced by police. The attempt to slice out James M. Hinds appears to me to rest on an arbitrary distinction; he was killed for attempting to protect the voting rights of black people in the South, but little matter. If some kind of statement about Ryan's uniqueness is made it needs to be a lot more narrowed. 71.136.180.66 (talk) 06:57, 2 September 2008 (UTC)
I have now added a total of (11) cites to various sources, including Congressman Tom Lantos, the San Francisco Chronicle, Los Angeles Times, Associated Press, and United Press International, all of which corroborate each other and say essentially the same thing. Cirt (talk) 09:37, 2 September 2008 (UTC)
In terms of a possible compromise that is perhaps more substantively accurate, I think all of the various sources backing up the claim likely meant that Ryan was the only Congressman "murdered" (not killed) in the line of duty. That is, while directly conducting Congressional duties, such as Ryan's Congressional investigation into U.S. citizens' well beings in Jonestown.
Most of the others were killed in accidents or war, Hinds was killed while campaigning and a couple of others were killed in 19th century gentlemens' duels.
Or perhaps even "killed in the line of duty" is accurate as it stands if none of the others were directly conducting official Congressional duties at the time of their deaths. I really don't know. I suppose it should be left that way given that multiple sources have stated this and there is no indication as of now that others were conducting official Congressional duties at the time of their deaths.Mosedschurte (talk) 16:09, 2 September 2008 (UTC)
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(help)While the Huffington Post cite is, on a surface, a blog, Pat Lynch certainly seems to have recognition in the field of news reporting. (See bio from link) AndroidCat (talk) 05:48, 23 September 2008 (UTC)
Ida J. Camburn exchanged letters with Congressman Leo Ryan about the notorious Scientology crime syndicate, detailing in debth Scientology's "disconnection" racketeering activities which Scientology engages in to keep family members from helping loved ones escape from Scientology -- and to stop handing over their money, of course.
In a number of letters sent to Ida (a.k.a. "Mom," as she is known among human rights and civil rights activists in Southern California) Congressman Ryan informed Ida that he would be working on stopping Scientology's predations and crimes and unfortunately the Rev. Jim Jones Christians murdered him before he could really get his teeth in to Hubbard and the other Scientology crime bosses.
It would be nice to contact Ida there in Hemet, California for a review of this Wikipedia article and to solicit commentary from her -- and to get photocopies of the letters from Ryan that she retains. Fredric Rice (talk) 04:40, 13 November 2008 (UTC)
I removed the "inhumane" from the "inhumane killing of seals" because it catagorizes the seal hunt as entirely inhumane which is false. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 142.162.170.207 (talk) 18:07, 20 December 2008 (UTC)
The image File:BobBrownKaituma.jpg is used in this article under a claim of fair use, but it does not have an adequate explanation for why it meets the requirements for such images when used here. In particular, for each page the image is used on, it must have an explanation linking to that page which explains why it needs to be used on that page. Please check
This is an automated notice by FairuseBot. For assistance on the image use policy, see Wikipedia:Media copyright questions. --05:02, 3 January 2009 (UTC)
The last paragraph of the lead currently states that "Ryan is the only U.S. congressman ever to be killed in the line of duty." What about representative Larry McDonald, who was killed five years later in the KAL 007 shootdown? -- 58.147.52.66 (talk) 04:21, 9 December 2009 (UTC)
He was extradited to the United States after having been found not-guilty of attempted murder by a Guyanese court due to having been brainwashed, and the charge of conspiracy was made as he could not be tried in the US for attempted murder.[6]
While I was looking for a history of assassinations against congressmen and congresswomen, I came across this: "He was the first member of Congress to have been killed in the line of duty, and the last until the assassination of Gabrielle Giffords in 2011." I had to remove the reference to Giffords. There are still mixed reports about her state with some sources saying she has died and with some others saying she is in surgery. Please wait until there are verified reports that she has indeed died. Thanks. 70.81.171.180 (talk) 20:06, 8 January 2011 (UTC)
While he was certainly the first, arguably Congressman Larry McDonald and Senator Robert F. Kennedy were also "killed in the line of duty". They are listed on United States members of Congress wounded or killed in the line of duty. Should this sentence be amended? The Celestial City (talk) 20:18, 9 January 2011 (UTC)
Please see Talk:Leo_Ryan/Archive_2#Only_congressman_killed_in_the_line_of_duty, where a list of supporting sources and quotes from those sources, is given. Thank you. -- Cirt (talk) 17:18, 11 January 2011 (UTC)
Interesting. This must be what folks are talking about when they say be wary of Wikipedia. Ryan is clearly neither the first, nor the only, MOC killed in the line of duty, yet some historic and erroneous reporting justifies continuing to describe him thus? ([[User talk: Bobbeers|talk}}) 21:56, 19 June 2011 (PST)
The right summary table lists his successor in Congress as William Royer. Yet body text lists his successor as Tom Lantos. I suspect the difference is due to changes in the district boundaries and thus both may be true; yet to a casual reader the article seems internally inconsistent. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 98.210.20.54 (talk) 07:32, 25 November 2012 (UTC)
This line is directly contradicted by this article - the sources (all media sources) all seem to be parroting off each other. Zambelo; talk 09:57, 16 February 2014 (UTC)
This claim probably refers to the fact that Ryan died while actually performing an official duty; he wasn't killed while campaigning or walking down the street, and didn't die in a fight or battle, but died in the act of doing his job. Other Congressmen/women may have died in office, but he died in the actual line of duty.Sdacj (talk) 03:44, 13 September 2015 (UTC)
The comment(s) below were originally left at Talk:Leo Ryan/Comments, and are posted here for posterity. Following several discussions in past years, these subpages are now deprecated. The comments may be irrelevant or outdated; if so, please feel free to remove this section.
*44 citations, 4 free-use images. Smee Smee 15:44, 23 April 2007 (UTC). |
Last edited at 15:44, 23 April 2007 (UTC). Substituted at 20:41, 3 May 2016 (UTC)
Much information is here about Ryan's daughters, but no information or even mention is made of his two sonsSdacj (talk) 22:11, 15 April 2016 (UTC)
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