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At what point is an Internet meme too ephemeral to merit an article? I think this one's real close -- I doubt very much we'll see this anywhere (other than a "tired jokes" forum) after another week or so. Jwrosenzweig 23:23, 12 Nov 2004 (UTC)
Then let's wait a week and see, shall we? In the meantime, I think the article is admirably done. (My main objection is to the recycling of the mildly interesting but gimmicky notion of meme, but that's another issue.) Hoary 23:28, 12 Nov 2004 (UTC)
The idea that some states have more in common with Canada than the rest of the union is not something new nor is it limited to internet jokes. While this is an interesting article (as it stands now it gets my stamp of approval), it would be interesting to conduct additional research (perhaps including the often raised idea that in the case of a split of the Canadian confederation, the middle provinces might join the US). Although it might sound extreme to most moderate/mainstream hears, a reshuffle of the Canadian and US provinces and states has often been mentioned in more or less serious papers - although certainly more serious than the image at hand. Anyway bravo for the article. --Phils 15:32, 14 Nov 2004 (UTC)
I've reverted the change by User:Ed Poor. It wasn't grammatically correct, for one, and the concept of a meme is well-established on Wikipedia (see Nevada-Tan, for example) and in the study of memetics. It's a sociological construct; calling it a "gimmick" (as above) doesn't really do it justice. - Scooter 22:47, 23 Nov 2004 (UTC)
seems awfully opinionated....is this real enough to merit a WikiPedia? I think it merits itself on some humor site but I thought Wikipedia was a resource for historical research. Christain bashing is becoming an art. If this were the middle east and it was Allah land they'd pull it down for fear of riots in France.
It has nothing at all to do with this topic....
The origin of this is from the blog of former Dean campagin members at CivicSpace Labs. Now, my concern is practical here. The Jesusland map was a blogger's invention, that has been spread primarily through other internet blogs. Other satirical graphics can be found on blogs for Bush, Dean, Kerry, and Nader, and we can find blog satire on politics, technology, music, and television shows. Is Wikipedia going to be a storing house for blogger's cartoons? Do we want to add the "Dan Rather Credibility Flowchart"? Wikipedia is definitely not a blog, and this sort of thing sets a precedent for every bit of satire and wit created on the countless blogs on there and their equally countless topics. Unless Wikipedia is to be a storehouse for blog humor, this is completely inappropriate. --Corwin8 08:04, 3 Dec 2004 (UTC)
The meme was created by G. Webb, a poster on a UK-based message board - an interesting wrinkle on this story. The source (in the form of a message-board thread where it was first posted) is now cited in the article. He appears to have been somewhat shy of garnering publicity on this, but it's important that Wikipedia gets even the small details right! (Sorry, don't have a user account, but around 8:20pm UK time, 9 Feb 2005)
Why do you consider it just "blog humor"? Why did the idea spread outside the blog? What is the signal it gives? Pure joke, are you sure? Or something more basic and serious? Why should Wikipedia blind itself to what happens in society? Now you can make it even more known by launching one of those weird Wikipedia VfD debates, certainly one of the best advertising tool in town, success guaranteed, maybe it is your purpose after all :-)) --Pgreenfinch 08:25, 3 Dec 2004 (UTC)
The signal it gives? It's O.K. to spam Wikipedia. Pure joke? Of course it is. Something more basic and serious? No. Wikipedia blind itself to what happens in society? Society seems unchanged to me. Well, I'm assuming that you were honestly ignorant of the answers to your questions, so I've answered them for you (oh, this is my first Wikipedia talk). Satisfied? --Corwin8 09:17, 3 Dec 2004 (UTC)
I thought you were a psychologist. Maybe in your studies you missed the chapter about cognitive dissonance, or some milder forms such as underreaction (I might write this last article, but no problem if you do it first ;-)). --Pgreenfinch 09:59, 3 Dec 2004 (UTC)
If he were a psychologist, wouldn't he be much more interested in how individuals and communities express their fears and outrages to perceived negative changes in their environment? Perhaps that's merely anthropology. Regardless, the metric of "if it isn't on network TV, it isn't notable" isn't the prevailing measure of worthiness here. The point is moot; whether or not this concept results in a change to society doesn't indicate it's validity. It's one of a number of expressive reactions to a major political event that has had much resonance in many circles, mostly online. By nature, a meme must be notable, else it wouldn't be a meme. Even if it is only an Internet meme. - [[User:KeithTyler|Keith D. Tyler [flame]]] 01:58, Dec 6, 2004 (UTC)
This is more than just a blogger's graphic. It captured and came to personify the popular disenfranchisement and alienation two halves of a country's population. This is not a map, it's a cultural schism put into graphics, and it is entirely deserving of its own article space. Unlike the red state blue state divide which is an event and a concept, this map has given it a distinct form that American society can relate to. People are still remembering this map, as it was remembered in anger, gloating and frustration. Its presentation of humor has been a popular katharsis in this visceral national event. It must stay. - Gilgamesh 03:21, 6 Dec 2004 (UTC)
To suggest that there is neither redeemable encyclopedic value in documenting the "Jesusland map", nor significant attention to the concept to justify this page is ridiculous. At a minimum, thousands of people are aware of, and were affected in some way by it, and this is a quality article. If we deny articles on the basis of their subjects being spread only by the Internet, then Wikipedia itself does not deserve an article. It must stay. -- Eric 08:25, 6 Dec 2004 (UTC)
On the comment that the map was considered "religious bigotry", I checked Google with the terms "Jesusland" and "bigotry" and ended up with 991 hits. They seemed slightly in favor of those saying that the concept was bigoted; some said that those in "Jesusland" were bigoted. However, a Google search on "Jesusland" and "proud" as terms yielded 9210 hits. About the same percentage as above gave some indication of "proud to be from Jesusland"; some expressed pride that they weren't. Based on that, I decided to list those who were proud along with those who thought the concept was bigoted, as the latter seem to be in the minority. - Scooter 04:34, 7 Dec 2004 (UTC)
History is littered with people taking insults up and wearing them as badges of honor. As for religious bigotry, you might try asking a priest or minister or two what they think. I have no doubt that left or right leaning they would find the concept offensive for two reasons: 1. "Jesusland" has plenty of sinners. 2. The United States of Canada has plenty of Jesus followers.
It's bigoted.
12.190.79.238 08:28, 14 October 2006 (UTC) Whoops, wasn't logged in, here I am again TMLutas 08:29, 14 October 2006 (UTC)
I also agree that the map is bigoted in nature, it's stereotyping the entire population of each state simply by how many electoral votes went to one candidate or another. The past American presidential elections have shown (as the Purple America map does) that Americans are not so easily divided, yet this map contributes to an intolerant, prejudiced mentality based simply on where one lives.
Speaking of which, I've reverted an edit made earlier this year in February by an anonymous user with the IP 76.24.183.243 which changed "United States of Canada" to "United States of Liberty & Education." Putting aside the fact that the original thread referenced in this article clearly shows that this is not the name originally used on the map, this piece of anonymous vandalism is even more offensive than the map itself, as it outright claims that religion and education are mutually exclusive.
I'm surprised that, for all of Wikipedia's reputation in scouring articles to fight wiki vandals, no one batted an eye at the inclusion of such an offensive vandalizing edit for all these months hence. 65.67.180.37 (talk) 22:36, 1 December 2011 (UTC)
Only the first two paragraphs of the article specifically reference the Jesusland map(s). The last paragraph also references it, but its contents would also apply equally to other post-election division maps.
The remaining three paragraphs discuss other maps that are not the Jesusland map or make statements that apply to all such maps.
Suggest moving this article to one with a more generic topic that would include all such post-election division maps, something like Protest maps of the 2004 U.S. election.
- [[User:KeithTyler|Keith D. Tyler [flame]]] 23:34, Dec 13, 2004 (UTC)
I don't think, based on the above comments and the recent editing, that this article needs to be listed under "Cleanup". This appears to be motivated by something other than a wish for good copyediting. I've commented on it here and have removed the Cleanup tag. - Scooter 21:51, 29 Dec 2004 (UTC)
I have removed the sentence "...and has entered the lexicon of typical American and Canadian pop culture references." because I doubt it and would like to see a source of that claim first. --Conti|✉ 17:42, Apr 13, 2005 (UTC)
One thing to watch when discussing "red state"/"blue state": in Canada the political colours are opposite. Conservative-Blue, Liberal-Red, NDP-Orange.
The 2006 canadian election saw BC, SK and MB join AB in going completely ga-ga Conservative, so this would seem to question the inclusion of those provinces in Bluestatistan. Admittedly CDN conservativism isn't the same as USA Republicanism, and the reasons behind the shift may or may not be ideological, but it's still a rightward shift in party support. And Conservative wasn't CDN's only viable alternative to the Liberals. - Keith D. Tyler ¶ (AMA) 20:04, 10 April 2006 (UTC)
As a Canadian citizen I find this extremley offensive. Canada is a sovreign nation, not just some US state. You could have just omitted Canada like you did Mexico.
You do realize that it's just a matter of time til Canada is absorbed into the US.
Maybe not this decade, or the next, but sooner than you think.
Why? Canada has 30 million people, the US has 300 million people. A ten to one advantage. Retrieved from "http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Jesusland_map"
--PEAR 14:08, 31 August 2006 (UTC)
I Agree - the point is that the blue states would like to join Canada rather than be a part of the rest of the reliogiously influenced country. No offence was meant or should be taken.
-As a Californian, I abbreviate my state as: CA. And I know that Canadians abbreviate their nation as: CA. So if California was absorbed by Canada, and I lived in the city of La Cañada, I could write my address as: La Cañada, CA, CA.
Canada cannot absorb California as Californian population is 36 million while Canada´s population is 33 million. And the Californian economy is about 20% larger than the Canadian. The blue states would have about 130 million people while the red states would have about 190 million people... —Preceding unsigned comment added by 79.146.210.74 (talk) 21:06, 1 September 2008 (UTC)
Technically this is more nationalistic to Canada, it GIVES us all the blue states of the US, and they become provinces, thus the government in such a country would be centred in Ottawa still and it'd still be Canada. -Anonymous Canadian —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.244.192.130 (talk) 17:57, 23 May 2008 (UTC)
You realize that in this map, Canada is the superior nation state? (Hence "United States of Canada, instead of "New America" or "Liberal States of America) —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.226.56.226 (talk) 18:17, 16 February 2009 (UTC)
Some took out the 2004 Canadian election which was helpful in illustrating the critique of the map based on assuming Canadian is just one big block of Democrats. Unless someone can give me a damn good reason why not, I'm putting it back in. After all there are about a dozen maps of the US that it is compared to in the article. One Canadian one wouldn't hurt. Kevlar67 20:12, 25 October 2006 (UTC) In canada, even our conservatives are semi liberal. i think it paints sask in a bad light, seing as provincially we usually elect a socialist government 216.197.255.21 05:03, 23 October 2007 (UTC)
I've found this in the first paragraph of the article "This page is a flamitory remark towards Democrates and should be elimunated. Wikipedia is sick for alowing this page to operate." I know THAT isn't supposed to be there, but it doesn't seem to show up in the "edit this page" function. Sorry if i sound like an idiot...
Hmm... it's not there anymore... I guess it was edited out WHILE I was viewing the page. Problem solved then.
The map has hawaii as a red state. 65.119.109.3 17:36, 14 April 2007 (UTC)
Which conservative religious group?
There is no need for Israel to be included in this discussion as this pertains exclusively to North America. Otherwise it can be argued that Conservative/Liberal division exist throughout the world (i.e. France, Brittain, Australia...). —Preceding unsigned comment added by 99.246.18.177 (talk) 14:34, 3 October 2007 (UTC)
What happened to the Jesusland map. I don't even see it on the page. I see other irrelevent ones. Would somebody please put it back on the page. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Jgatesy (talk • contribs).
I added a small section on physical versions (clothes etc). Unfortunately I could only find commercial sites as proof of this. if anybody knows of news articles mentioning this development of the meme, please replace the commercial refs with them. Totnesmartin 14:07, 26 October 2007 (UTC)
I deleted a fair volume of material from the article on the grounds that it was unsourced and possibly non-NPOV. User:Atlant reverted me, arguing that the criticisms were "likely to be correct." That's certainly a good thing, but the standard for inclusion is and has always been verifiability, not correctness. Deltabeignet (talk) 00:18, 9 December 2007 (UTC)
well that's wrong, and it sucks. wikipedia needs to decide if it wants to be a wiki or an encyclopedia. it can't be both. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 69.125.110.223 (talk) 19:55, 17 December 2007 (UTC)
Whoever "recreated" the map did a bad job at it -- Here's the original: http://web.knoxnews.com/silence/archives/jesusland.jpg The colors are vastly different, the names are missing, and there are lines between the states when in the original the only lines are the borders of the whole countries. The original made the point in very emphatic visual way -- the "recreation" just fails at it.
So right now the recreation is no recreation at all. More like the shadow of the shadow of one.
I'd try to correct it, but have zero experience with SVG images. Aris Katsaris (talk) 18:41, 26 February 2008 (UTC)
I've seen a United States of Canada flag around before in two different variations, one shows a Canadian flag with a star and the other shows a US flag with a Maple leaf. Why haven't one of these been posted along with the Jesusland flag? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.244.192.130 (talk) 18:10, 23 May 2008 (UTC)
It's small, so it's hard to tell, but in the map currently on this article, Washington D.C. is shown as part of Jesusland. It voted for Kerry, so I suspect it should be part of the US of Canada. - Shaheenjim (talk) 05:51, 22 June 2008 (UTC)
I'm not sure how to phrase it or where it would go in the article, but perhaps something should be said for the oddity of including Alaska in "Jesusland" despite it being one of the least religious states in the U.S. See: Unchurched Belt, Alaska#Religion —Preceding unsigned comment added by Jomasecu (talk • contribs) 00:06, 23 September 2008 (UTC)
First, how come the original map isn't here? Didn't we get permission to use it, or what?
Second, I request that the "recreation" is re-made. The current recreation loses out much of the immediate humor of the original map. Specifically:
All in all, much of the impact of the original map is lost. Instead we have something that looks faintly scientific or official. Put simply, the joke is gone.
Couldn't we simply have as a picture a snap-shot of the original as it first appeared? Something like this: http://i257.photobucket.com/albums/hh205/kazapp/jesusland.jpg
I moved the Jesusland flag lower on the page, as to not draw attention away from the main subject of the article. Now it doesn't show up when first reaching this page (on a decent-sized browser window, at least), which is what I feel is appropriate. After all, the article isn't about the flag. CapnZapp (talk) 13:20, 7 November 2008 (UTC)
I reverted the section on a purported "update" of the map (as depicted on the above website). As it stood, the new section was all but indistinguishable from an attempt to draw traffic to a web site. I did not find any resemblance between the original map and those of the web site.
I'm not saying it was, only that it could be. To avoid being reverted in the future, please add more context such as: What connects this site to the original map? Is it by the original author? Can you find mentions in independent media? Essentially, what makes this web site notable, as opposed to being merely an attempt to cash in on a fad? Regards, CapnZapp (talk) 10:04, 11 November 2008 (UTC)
Good call, Zombie Hunter Smurf. Probably the section needs to go, but sure, give the community a chance to find a referenced connection. Do remember to clean out the Jesusland mention from the novel's page too, if and when that's appropriate. CapnZapp (talk) 10:31, 17 December 2008 (UTC)
Can someone find cites for some of the items in the list? Its dangerously close to becoming rampant with OR. Zombie Hunter Smurf (talk) 14:02, 5 January 2009 (UTC)
perhaps a pop culture reference could point to U.K. author Richard Morgan's use of Jesusland as an area of U.S.A. after a future secession. It's an area that contains a population who hold extreme right wing views, bigotry, racism and anti abortionists all encompassed by their faith. its also a place that becomes a dumping ground of other countries unwanted problemsPix6 (talk) 20:33, 13 April 2010 (UTC)
Only Wikipedia can disseminate a meme so much it becomes incredibly unfunny. —Preceding unsigned comment added by BLaafg (talk • contribs) 03:18, 9 January 2009 (UTC)
This was removed from the Jesusland article:
The term "Dumbfuckistan" came from the cartoon "Blue Christmas" that aired on December 18, 2004, as a TV Funhouse cartoon on Saturday Night Live[1]. In the cartoon "Blue Christmas", Santa skips the states that re-elected George W. Bush and hangs out with liberal celebrities like Margaret Cho, Al Franken, and Moby. "Dumbfuckistan" is now a very popular term in US culture. Often depicted on many U Tube videos are the fictional characters known as Dumbfuck and Stan. "Dumbfuck" is US slang for a stupid person.
Reference
http://mediasluts.blogspot.com/2004/12/drunken-weekend-lotsa-oc.html Media Sluts: Drunken Weekend, Lotsa O.C<!
125.162.168.156 (talk) 10:33, 15 January 2009 (UTC)
hahaha conservative censorship of WIKIPEDIA!?!?!? That'll be the day. - 138.163.106.71 (talk)
This is an old internet meme. Wikipedia is not an archive of old internet memes. I would like to see this "article" deleted. Brianski (talk) 11:56, 27 June 2009 (UTC)
I agree with deleting it. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 141.189.251.1 (talk) 18:31, 23 November 2009 (UTC)
this is not an internet meme, this is purely an American meme. I'd be surprised if you could find anyone outside of the U.S. and Canada who had heard of it. I only stumbled across this page while looking at the damage caused by a blocked user. From the article, it sounds like this map only received notoriety because it was reported on news channels. The whole concept of an internet meme is that it achieved its popularity on the internet, not on news channels. Since it was meant to exist as a joke, the joke is now finished and it's time to remove this page. Owen214 (talk) 02:59, 1 August 2010 (UTC)
I clearly remember distributing this to a friend after the 2000 election. So while it might not have gotten huge until 2004 and the election results were similar, I think you should research the history a bit more as this meme started after the first time Bush was elected in 2000 when he proudly called "jesus" his hero during the debates and so forth. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 99.103.0.205 (talk) 06:53, 15 October 2012 (UTC)
I first searched for "Jesusland" after reading Richard Morgan's "Black Man" book (in a French edition, the term is kept untranslated). Never heard of that meme before. This makes more pertinent and relevant the persistence of this item in Wikipedia, to me, as it's being integrated in today's culture. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Wwp (talk • contribs) 14:59, 8 July 2011 (UTC)
shows current state of the construct. Agree that working the meme by updating is contrary to wikipedia rules. 72.228.190.243 (talk) 09:08, 21 November 2012 (UTC)
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