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Archive 45 | ← | Archive 47 | Archive 48 | Archive 49 | Archive 50 | Archive 51 | → | Archive 55 |
In addition, I've made the AID request, and Homestarmy has made the peer review request. Grigory Deepdelver of BrockenboringTalkTCF 14:29, 13 April 2006 (UTC)
An anon added this in, so I put it under the skeptical viewpoint area, however, I feel there is a case for simply deleting it, as it is really quite a poor effort at examining the issue, and I would think is more embarassing to the Jesus-myth side than helpful. First, there are some unreferenced statements about "Clearly the NT is a mythical account in several key areas", indicating a value judgement on Christianity and happenance which cannot be explained by science, the issues the article raises take the Jesus Seminar out of context to mean that it "Was instrumental in exposing the flaws of the NT", when all they did was vote on whether Jesus did or did not say something. The same old tiresome arguments about relations to other myths also comes in, in addition to a wonderful piece if I recall about the NT "Being our only source on Jesus' existance" which is entirely innacurate, so therefore, I ask you, my fellow editors, should this link stand, or is what we already have sufficient? Homestarmy 02:31, 14 April 2006 (UTC)
The link is just bad. Saying that Paul never claimed to meet anyone who knew Jesus is simply not true, for instance. He says he met James, brother of the Lord, among other things. john k 16:17, 15 April 2006 (UTC)
According to Paramahansa Yogananda, Jesus Christ's last incarnation was Elisha and John the Baptist was Elijah. In the Autobiography of a Yogi, Yogananda also made a claim that Jesus' spiritual teacher was John the Baptist. This is also mentioned in the Bible in a very subtle manner. I am not sure how many Christians are aware of this piece of information but I am sure this revelation is going to stir up some debate. As I personally do not belong to any religious group, my stand is neutral in this respect. But I would like to see some comments about this from a Christian point of view. Self-Realization Fellowship members and disciples of Yogananda have long embraced this view but I do not see this being mentioned in the other Christian sects. --Siva1979Talk to me 15:06, 14 April 2006 (UTC)
Firstly, I would like to thank you for your comments. I would like to show you an online version of the Autobiography of a Yogi which mentions Jesus' past live and his spiritual teacher. The book and the chapter which concerns this discussion is here: Mind you, this book was written by a man you had claimed to have realized God and the author is by NO means a fundamental Hindu. I believe this article would prove to be an interesting piece of information for Christians who are willing to examine a different perspective of Christianity.
Secondly, Self-Realization Fellowship is NOT an exclusive Hindu or Christian organization. This organization includes the teachings of Christ and Krishna in their sermons.
Lastly, I hope that the above mentioned website will also shed future light onto Wesley's comments. I hope this will clarify the discussion a bit and we could then bring this debate into a higher level of discussion. Your comments are appreciated. --Siva1979Talk to me 16:09, 15 April 2006 (UTC)
The idea that Elijah and Elisha prefigured John and Jesus is a rather old (Christian) one, isn't it? The reincarnation business would seem to be a Hindu extrapolation of this Christian view, no? john k 16:15, 15 April 2006 (UTC)
Can everyone please check they are editing a valid version when they make changes. I've just had to revert about six vandal comments by hand as they'd got overlaid by valid edits. Ta. Gilraen of Dorthonion AKA SophiaTalkTCF 00:10, 15 April 2006 (UTC)
I just reverted the removal of the baptism painting in the Ministry section. The remover left a little 'editorial' note about the image not being appropriate, because the act of a 'pouring' baptism, as opposed to an 'immersion' baptism was not used during the first century AD.
I reverted the change because it didn't seem an appropriate one to make without discussion. I for one, feel the image is still valid, because its caption notes when it was painted, in the 14th century, and it is fairly common knowledge that 14th century christianity used a lot of imagery and cultural ideas that weren't used in the first century.
Discuss amongst yourselves. :) Phidauex 21:04, 15 April 2006 (UTC)
I have also reverted another attempt to delete the image. Unfortunately, much of the Art of Jesus is anachronistic -- Caucasoid features, Dress from Middle Ages, Baptism by pouring, etc. It is simply how artists at the time represented things. Ted 21:15, 15 April 2006 (UTC)
I agree with Jpgordon, this is silliness. A renaissance painting of Jesus isn't meant to suggest that it is a historically accurate recreation of what really happened. john k 00:26, 16 April 2006 (UTC)
One more comment, this article is not this historical Jesus article or any POV article. Just because someone doesn't believe in the Jesus depicted in the painting, or if it isn't 'historically accurate', does not make the person in the painting any less Jesus. Clearly, this painting is of Jesus and I have no problem with it being in an article about Jesus. Stating the context and POV behind the painting seems more than enough. I see no reason to point out the "errors" in the painting. --Andrew c 02:19, 18 April 2006 (UTC)
It is argued that because this article is plagued with other anachronisms, it is unacceptable to challenge this blatantly anachronistic depiction of baptism. If this kind of thinking is continued, the article on Jesus will remain perpetually stunted and deceiving. Is is invalid to argue that it is acceptable to mischaracterize a matter of doctrinal concern because you have < a l s o> allowed the mischaracterization of the Lord's Jewish features.
Furthermore, while Lord's race is not a doctrinally sensitive issue for mainline Christians, the manner of administering baptism is a painfully sensitive issue of doctrine - amongst many mainline denominations. Using illustrations which are both anachronistic and doctrinally unsound will always spark resistance and offense amongst many of the audience of this article.
The image in question adds no useful information to the article, and simply adds to downloading burden of the servers and makes the page needlessly larger.
If there is scholarly interest in the anachronistic deptictions of Christ, then it ought to be addressed as a specific issue. As it is, this anachronism is presented as a factual depiction of a first century event. As such it is deceptive and unscholarly. Those with an historically accurate understanding of the first century will be offended by undistinguished anachronism - especially so if pertaining to a sensitive point of doctrine. Those who do not have a basis to evaluate what they are seeing will merely absorb the image without critical attention - as fact. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Aidenj (talk • contribs)
(sigh). Three years ago, there was a discussion on the use of artistic images and the proper balance of different artistic interpretations used in this article vis-a-vis doctrinal differences and historical reality. It's in the very first archives: /Archive 1 and /Archive 2, and has occassionally come up after that. The depiction of baptism shown in this painting may be anachronistic, but Wikipedia editors are also being anachronistic if they expect this painting to be realistic. Realism is beside the point. Artistic realism as a school didn't develop until around 1840. Artistic portrayals often rely on symbolism. Hence the term "artistic license." Go ahead and add a disclaimer if you think it would help, but I don't see why we should have to state the obvious. Instead we should do exactly what we do with the text: attribute significant POVs to their adherents. In this case we attribute a particular artistic POV to Piero della Francesca. That should be enough. This isn't a photograph. This is the POV of one Piero della Francesca.
We had another image of the baptism at one point from a different POV, but that image was removed because it violated copyright. Grigory Deepdelver of BrockenboringTalkTCF 02:49, 16 April 2006 (UTC)
The first paragraph is one long sentence, and is thus (a little) overly hard to follow. I propose the following change (which I would have made if not for the request on the page to discuss these things first):
Jesus (8-2 BC/BCE – 29-36 AD/CE),[1] also known as Jesus of Nazareth, is the central figure of Christianity. In this context he is known as Jesus Christ, where Christ is a Greek title meaning "Anointed", corresponding to the Hebrew term "Messiah".
—matthew0028 06:25, 17 April 2006 (UTC)
The article seems to be split regarding which version of the possessive should be used, as both forms are used at different times. For internal consistancy, shouldn't one be used exclusively? And according to the Manual of Style:
*Possessives of singular nouns ending in s may be formed with or without an additional s. Either form is generally acceptable within Wikipedia. However, if either form is much more common for a particular word or phrase, follow that form, such as with "Achilles' heel" and "Jesus' tears".
This suggests that the form Jesus' is what should be used in the article. Should I (or someone else) go through and make the necessary changes?
—matthew0028 06:25, 17 April 2006 (UTC)
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