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The dating in this is confusing and inconsistent. The periods listed in the lede do not match the dates given in the summary of periods which do not match the dates given in the headers for the periods.
Lede:
traditionally dated between c. 14,000–300 BCE, recently refined to about 1000 BCE
Summary:
The very long, approximately 14,000 years, Jōmon period is conventionally divided into a number of phases: Incipient (16,500-10,000 years ago), Initial (10,000–7,000), Early (7,000–5,450), Middle (5,450–4,420), Late (4,420–3,220) and Final (3,220–2,350), with the phases getting progressively shorter.
Headers:
Incipient and Initial Jōmon (14,000–4000 BCE) Early Jōmon (4000–2500 BCE) Middle Jōmon (2500–1500 BCE) Late and Final Jōmon (1500–900/300 BCE)
I can see some of the dates are in BCE and some are in "years ago" which explains some of the inconsistency (eg 1500 BCE vs 4420 years ago) but even then there is a lot of inconsistency (14000 BCE vs 16500 years ago vs 1000 BCE in the lede, or 7000 years ago vs 4000 BCE). I know there has been some serious contention here from the talk, but can someone who knows something about the topic at least make the dates consistent (also using a consistent format, either BCE or "years ago" to reduce confusion)? For someone seeking information without a foundation in the topic, the confusion of dates and date formats makes this article somewhat useless. 2601:140:C000:A593:2022:1D38:B1F1:C0B3 (talk) (June 2019)
Plans in the works for updating all dates as well as adding more info Miketsushimi (talk) 02:35, 15 December 2020 (UTC)
@Fraenir: can you explain your edits and ? I do not see any improvement between this and this revision.--Miki Filigranski (talk) 17:12, 15 April 2017 (UTC)
2. This lead ("The relationship of Jōmon people to the modern Japanese (Yamato people), Ryukyuans and Ainu is diverse. According to recent studies the contemporary Japanese people descended from a mixture of the ancient hunter-gatherer Jōmon and the Yayoi rice agriculturalists.[37][38][39][40][41][42]") is inappropriate: due to Hideaki, we now have a pretty clear picture of that relationship - the Jomon cluster to themselves, show affinity to East Asians, and slightly more to Ainu, then Ryukyuans. This poster then also slid that Hideaki source inappropriately into this location to support the Jomon/Yayoi statement. There's not enough data yet to fully model with confidence the Jomon/Yayoi dichotomy as stated in this version (as of right now, we only have 1 full Jomon aDNA sample on record); a much weaker phrasing is more appropriate. 3. That poster consistently inserts phrasing to insert a much stronger relationship than implied. His version "Recent Y chromosome haplotype testing has led to the generally accepted hypothesis that male haplogroup D1b, which has been found in different percentages of samples of modern Japanese (32%), Ryukyuan (55%), and Ainu (87%), may reflect patrilineal descent from members of a Jōmon period culture of the Japanese Archipelago.[38][39]" vs the original "Recent Y-DNA haplotype testing has led to the popularly accepted (though untested) hypothesis that haplogroup D-M55 Y-DNA, which has been found in some percentages of samples of modern Japanese, Ryukyuan, and Ainu males, may reflect patrilineal descent from members of a Jōmon period culture of the Japanese Archipelago.[39]" He adds numbers, then inserts his misleading phrasing to imply that this hypothesis is now a "generally accepted hypothesis". That's ridiculous. This is a common problem with these edits - the editor adds numbers and then slides misleading or inappropriate assertions along with these numbers. The main problem with the current setup is that the bulk of the genetics section is reliant on mtDNA data, which is inferring too far from limited information - the problem with the version dependent on this one poster's take on mtDNA studies is that it makes too many assumptions based on data that should not be used that way. The aDNA information is much more reliable and should be the focus of a solid genetics section. Fraenir (talk) 23:40, 15 April 2017 (UTC)
"However, according to 2011 study all major mtDNA lineages, with the D4b2b1 and M7a1a latest, expanded before 7000 YBP unequivocally during the Jōmon Period (14–2.3 kya), specifically, in the incipient Jōmon Period (8–5 YBP) i.e. thousands of years before intensive agriculture and that the growth of population and depletion of food resources was the reason for population expansion and not agriculture.[48]" - Here's another problematic statement that's in the realm of original research. The paper never mentions Jomon at all. It never states that D4b2b1 or M7a1a are Jomon haplogroups, nor does it mention the incipient Jomon Period. Why was this inserted into a section on Jomon genetics, when the study is based on the DNA analysis of modern Japanese people, a study that never even mentions the word Jomon?Fraenir (talk) 06:17, 16 April 2017 (UTC)
@Fraenir: you made many edits ignorning my remarks above, instead to reword and fix with minor edits, once again you went to remove sourced information without my consent. You find a minor error and overweight its importance as an excuse for the removal of the whole paragraph or source. Please do not do that, and stop to lie; in the source 48 is mentioned Jomon period.--Miki Filigranski (talk) 15:31, 17 April 2017 (UTC)
References
1. Removed the two sections below that are misleadingly sourced, as per the discussion above. Both are studies done on modern Japanese populations, and more relevant in the genetics section of Japanese people than the genetics section of Jomon. They also contain a mix of original research and synthesis. The 2nd sentence contains a source that never even mentions Jomon.Fraenir (talk) 00:57, 17 April 2017 (UTC)
2. Removed the misleadingly added 13-40% percentages that were based on mtDNA distribution studies of modern Japanese populations. This does not belong in a sentence about Jomon nuclear DNA. The statement itself that I'm restoring "A 2016 study on ancient Jomon aDNA from Sanganji shell mound estimates that the modern Japanese population inherited less than 20% of their DNA from the ancient Jomon populations." is accurate and strong enough to stand on its own. Since the actual numbers for that one nuclear DNA sample show numbers that are much lower than 20%, it's fair to make that statement, as did Hideaki in his paper.Fraenir (talk) 01:05, 17 April 2017 (UTC)
3. Restored language that reflects, more accurately, the current state of studies on the connections between ancient Jomon populations and modern Japanese populations. As per DragoniteLeopard, "the Jomon and their relationships with modern population is not well clarified."Fraenir (talk) 01:19, 17 April 2017 (UTC)
@Fraenir: with adding of a template, according to point 6. of WP:WTRMT, support the placement of the tag.--Miki Filigranski (talk) 16:09, 17 April 2017 (UTC)
The questionable sentence: "However, according to 2011 study all major mtDNA lineages, with the D4b2b1 and M7a1a latest, expanded before 7000 YBP unequivocally during the Jōmon Period (14–2.3 kya), specifically, in the incipient Jōmon Period (8–5 YBP) i.e. thousands of years before intensive agriculture and that the growth of population and depletion of food resources was the reason for population expansion and not agriculture. " There are multiple problems with this statement.
The statement made above, and currently re-inserted multiple times into the article by Miki Filigranski, is full of contradictions and inaccuracies.
The questionable sentence: "Recent Y chromosome haplotype testing has led to the hypothesis that male haplogroup D1b, which has been found in different percentages of samples of modern Japanese, Ryukyuan, and Ainu population, may reflect patrilineal descent from members of a Jōmon period culture of the Japanese Archipelago."
So, I noticed Miki Filigranski sneaked in another reference tag here , so I decided to check the factual accuracy of this statement. Sure enough, the originally cited source, Hideaki 2013, directed contradicted the claim that Miki Filigranski was pushing, and actually states that "In the modern Japanese, mtDNA haplogroups N9b and M7a2 ... are uncommon." and "In modern populations, haplogroup N9b is present in the Japanese archipelago at low frequencies (<10%), but at a high frequency (30.4%) in the Udegey from southern Siberia." In contrast, Miki Filigranki had repeatedly re-inserted the false claim, using the same source, that haplogroups N9b (most frequent in Ainu). Again, adding a bunch of tags to erroneous information does not validate false or misleading claims. The newly added 'source' also does not support this claim. Fraenir (talk) 14:29, 23 April 2017 (UTC)
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There is a link at the bottom to Austronesian peoples, but there's nothing in this article that mentions Austronesian or Austro- anything. Are the Jomon any kind of Austronesian people? I haven't heard any genetic evidence about that. On the other hand, there is evidence suggesting the Jomon came from the northern Asian mainland.[1]
There is now clear and convincing evidence that at least some Jōmon folk were Australnesian. Bearian (talk) 21:05, 25 October 2022 (UTC)
The following Wikimedia Commons file used on this page or its Wikidata item has been nominated for deletion:
Participate in the deletion discussion at the nomination page. —Community Tech bot (talk) 09:08, 6 September 2020 (UTC)
'A common culture, known as "broadleafed every green forest culture", ranged from southwestern Japan through southern China towards Northeast India and southern Tibet,' -- should that be "broadleafed evergreen forest"? 104.153.40.58 (talk) 17:33, 1 July 2021 (UTC)
"More recent evidence indicates that domestication occurred as early as 6000 BC in Zhejiang Province of China. " as stated in the peach article. No confusvation anymore. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 47.71.61.6 (talk) 14:15, 17 November 2021 (UTC)
The text states, "The manufacture of pottery typically implies some form of sedentary life because pottery is heavy, bulky, and fragile and thus generally unusable for hunter-gatherers." This assertion is based on the assumption that hunter-gatherers are always nomadic and that ceramics are connected with agriculture, which is considered sedentary. In fact, however, the earliest pottery in many regions (e.g., Siberia, Alaska, eastern Fennoscandia) appears specifically in a hunter-gatherer context and the pots themselves can be quite large. Also, few hunter-gatherers are continuously on the move. Most historical hunter-gatherers have practiced some form of transhumance, spending long periods of time in seasonal camps connected with some important resource, while a few groups such as the North Alaskan coastal Inuit and the Northwest Coast tribes lived in permanent villages near a rich resource (whales and salmon, in these cases) that provided year-round sustenance in the form of stores collected during part of the year. The statement also ignores the fact that even nomadic hunter-gatherers can have "appliances", i.e., heavy or bulky implements that are not carried around but are stashed at some suitable location for use when the group camps there to utilize a local resource. Such "appliances" may include grinding stones, fishing weirs, hunting blinds and storage pits, but also pots used, e.g., for rendering seal fat. Neither archaeology nor ethnography substantiates the assertion that ancient hunter-gatherers could not have used pottery. Death Bredon (talk) 15:58, 10 December 2023 (UTC)
The article contains descriptions and photographs of (ritualistic rather than everyday) pottery, human figures and jewellery that emphasize the uniqueness of Jomon, but no information whatsoever on actual tools (stone or metal) or their methods of production, which would tie the Jomon periods in with developments on the mainland. It would appear that the article was written by an art historian rather than an archaeologist. Death Bredon (talk) 16:34, 10 December 2023 (UTC)
The mixture of past and present tense in this article is very confused/confusing. It sometimes changes mid-sentence. 86.14.43.73 (talk) 11:13, 22 July 2024 (UTC)
The mixture of past and present tense in this article is very confused/confusing. It sometimes changes mid-sentence. 86.14.43.73 (talk) 11:14, 22 July 2024 (UTC)
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