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This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 100 | ← | Archive 103 | Archive 104 | Archive 105 | Archive 106 | Archive 107 |
User:Makeandtoss, who clearly edits with a pro-Palestine bias, has removed historically accurate information to perpetuate an inaccurate viewpoint. While the original article may have addressed the remaining territory, it's essential to note that the combined territory of Israel, the West Bank, and Gaza constitutes only 23% of the British Mandate for Palestine. This information holds significant importance for maintaining neutrality.
Compare:
The [[1949 Armistice Agreements]] saw Israel's borders established over most of the former remaining Mandate territory, which is not including the 77% which was previously used to establish [[Jordan]] on 11 April 1922, while the rest, the [[Jordanian annexation of the West Bank|West Bank]] and the [[Occupation of the Gaza Strip by the United Arab Republic|Gaza Strip]], were taken by [[Jordan]] and [[Egypt]] respectively.
EdmHopLover1995 (talk) 13:41, 3 May 2024 (UTC)
who clearly edits with a pro-Palestine bias. O3000, Ret. (talk) 13:45, 3 May 2024 (UTC)
it's essential to note that the combined territory of Israel, the West Bank, and Gaza constitutes only 23% of the British Mandate for Palestine.Rubbish, this is the propaganda nonsense that includes Jordan in the Mandate. Selfstudier (talk) 16:03, 3 May 2024 (UTC)
in the Hebrew name of Israel the vowels are very hard to read. Rishypeasy (talk) 21:42, 26 April 2024 (UTC)
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Just like Arabic, English is also a recognized language in Israel. Please add English alongside Arabic in the "recognized languages" section in the infobox. Here are the sources, as added to the article List of countries and territories where English is an official language.
[1][2][3] MylowattsIAm (talk) 23:23, 30 April 2024 (UTC)
References
In 1948, the newly independent state of Israel took over the old British regulations that had set English, Arabic, and Hebrew as official languages for Mandatory Palestine but, as mentioned, dropped English from the list. In spite of this, official language use has maintained a de facto role for English, after Hebrew but before Arabic.
English is not considered official but it plays a dominant role in the educational and public life of Israeli society. [...] It is the language most widely used in commerce, business, formal papers, academia, and public interactions, public signs, road directions, names of buildings, etc. English behaves 'as if' it were the second and official language in Israel.
In terms of English, there is no connection between the declared policies and statements and de facto practices. While English is not declared anywhere as an official language, the reality is that it has a very high and unique status in Israel. It is the main language of the academy, commerce, business, and the public space.
{{Edit extended-protected}}
template. M.Bitton (talk) 00:27, 9 May 2024 (UTC)In the Government and politics section, there is a "see also" link for the Criticism of Israel. I wonder if there should be a separate section altogether for that, especially considering some of the criticism for the state is not entirely about "government and politics" (examples: islamophobia, antisemitism, etc). Josethewikier (talk) 03:06, 13 May 2024 (UTC)
Does anyone disagree with the content or the phrasing in this paragraph:
Alexanderkowal (talk) 10:43, 10 May 2024 (UTC)
References
The fear of territorial displacement and dispossession was to be the chief motor of Arab antagonism to Zionism down to 1948 (and indeed after 1967 as well).Also quoted, among many, by Mark M. Ayyash (2019). Hermeneutics of Violence: A Four-Dimensional Conception. University of Toronto Press, p. 195, ISBN 1487505868. Accessed 22 March 2024.
On whether to include the Nakba pagelink in this paragraph in the lede:
Alexanderkowal (talk) 14:01, 12 May 2024 (UTC)
that article is written from the Palestinian perspectiveIf that's true, add some other perspectives so that it isn't. Selfstudier (talk) 18:25, 19 May 2024 (UTC)
this is entirely how it works, via consensus of editors. If multiple editors question the NPOV of an article, it gets an NPOV bannerIf that was the way it worked, every contentious article would have a permanent NPOV tag. O3000, Ret. (talk) 18:43, 19 May 2024 (UTC)
References
The fear of territorial displacement and dispossession was to be the chief motor of Arab antagonism to Zionism down to 1948 (and indeed after 1967 as well).Also quoted, among many, by Mark M. Ayyash (2019). Hermeneutics of Violence: A Four-Dimensional Conception. University of Toronto Press, p. 195, ISBN 1487505868. Accessed 22 March 2024.
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There is a typo. JewIsh instead of Jewish. Please fix it. Grakkus (talk) 16:17, 20 May 2024 (UTC)
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The page states that Israel is located in the historic Canaan and “Palestine” areas. This is supposed to be “Judea” as historically “Palestine” only existed as a British Mandate from 1918-1948. Please update this language to be historically accurate as Canaan and Judea are the correct terms for this point in Israel’s history. Canaan does not exist today, and the land of Judea is where Israel currently exists. (Submitted by a Middle East historian) 98.246.173.176 (talk) 13:39, 23 May 2024 (UTC)
Not done. Unsourced opinion. Selfstudier (talk) 13:48, 23 May 2024 (UTC)
@Alexanderkowal: The lede is a summary, and your recent edits do not treat it as such. Makeandtoss (talk) 14:38, 28 May 2024 (UTC)
@Alexanderkowal: The recent edits are overdetailed and editorial, please summarize as follows:
Makeandtoss (talk) 12:30, 11 May 2024 (UTC)
the loci for the much wider known holocaust is in Israeli societyJews everywhere, I would have thought.
Any remembrance of Nakba is focused on Palestinian society, see The U.N. is marking the 75th anniversary of Palestinians' displacement Selfstudier (talk) 09:38, 12 May 2024 (UTC)
I’m more trying to correct for the lack of Zionist voices on this pageSeriously? Selfstudier (talk) 14:13, 17 May 2024 (UTC)
I haven't received much disagreementexcept from the
very anti-Israelpeople who have engaged with you? Think you better ease off with the them and us rhetoric, tbh. Selfstudier (talk) 14:36, 17 May 2024 (UTC)
in order to maintain NPOV Zionist arguments need to be involved and the grains of truth in them usedNo, that's not WP:NPOV. The "V" in NPOV is the viewpoints of reliable sources, not the viewpoints of the subjects of the articles. Levivich (talk) 22:22, 17 May 2024 (UTC)
IMO, the best way to figure out what to write about immigration in the Israel article is to take a few recent books about Israel's history from the most reputable scholars from a variety of viewpoints, and see what they say about immigration, and then summarize that. Levivich (talk) 14:37, 28 May 2024 (UTC)
Maybe it's not the best place to open the discussion, but let's have it started.
Regarding maps of towns & regions:
It is important to have the main features on the map also on the other side of border or armistice lines. For the PA these are Palestinian towns & Israeli settlements, elsewhere Lebanese etc. towns, trans-border roads etc. Why? Because white surfaces aren't informative. There is peaceful and violent interaction across those lines - main roads into the West Bank, border crossings, common industrial zones, border incidents (shooting, terror attacks, IDF incursions, historical battles), ecological issues, and so forth. One comes here for inf. and gets - hic sunt leones.
Use a different colour, of course - keep the white or whatever - but border or armistice lines are porous, not the ultimate confines of Flat Earth. We should only add important features, but those are needed. If a selection or graphic alteration is too difficult to achieve, technically or otherwise, then keep all there is, but in pale grey. Arminden (talk) 10:15, 29 May 2024 (UTC)
Hopefully this is uncontroversial and accurate, but I am open to guidance if mistaken.
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Please make the following change to the article:
− | During the war, British occupation led to the | + | During the war, British occupation led to the creation of Mandatory Palestine in 1920. |
Infectedfreckle (talk) 00:59, 30 May 2024 (UTC)
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
I think it's time for us to have this discussion.
I propose that the apartheid allegation be explicitly mentioned in the lead. This is an incredibly well-sourced allegation, and I think the current lead which vaguely talks about "crimes of humanity" and "war crimes" is avoiding the core of the issue — precisely which crime is Israel being accused of? Apartheid is the principal one.
Specifically, I propose that the current version "Israel's practices in its occupation of the Palestinian territories have drawn sustained international criticism along with accusations that it has committed war crimes and crimes against humanity against the Palestinian people from human rights organizations and United Nations officials.
" be replaced with "Israel's practices in its occupation of the Palestinian territories have drawn sustained international criticism. It has been accused of committing war crimes and crimes against humanity, including the crime of apartheid, against the Palestinian people from human rights organizations and United Nations officials.
" JDiala (talk) 00:17, 19 April 2024 (UTC)
Option A: Mention apartheid.
Option B: No change.
Option C: Other.
...including the crime of apartheid, against the Palestinian people from human rights organizations, including X, Y, and Z, as well as United Nations officials.A Socialist Trans Girl 08:44, 18 May 2024 (UTC)
On WP:RFCEND, it is stated that "if consensus is undoubtedly clear, even an involved editor may summarize the discussion
" and "[if] the matter under discussion is not contentious and the consensus is obvious to the participants, then formal closure is neither necessary nor advisable
". I decided to close in light of this. JDiala (talk) 23:22, 25 May 2024 (UTC)
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In the second paragraph from the top, in the middle of that paragraph there is a misspelling of "Gaza Sctrip" should be "Gaza Strip". Wasphilux (talk) 05:04, 7 June 2024 (UTC)
Why does the lede now jump from 1,000 BC to 1896? 3,000 years of the ancient and modern history of the Palestine region summarized in 8 words of "subsequently came under the rule of various empires."? Makeandtoss (talk) 15:04, 7 June 2024 (UTC)
2nd paragraph 1st & 2nd sentences contain easy-to-fix redundancies.
current: Israel is located in a region known historically as Canaan, Palestine, and the Holy Land. In antiquity, it was home to several Canaanitecity-states, and later, Israelite and Judahite kingdoms, and is referred to as the Land of Israel in Jewish tradition.
suggested edit: Israel is located in a region known historically as Canaan, Palestine, the Holy Land, and the Land of Israel.
‘Canaanite city states’ is redundant with ‘historically known as Canaan’ ‘Israelite and Judahite kingdoms’ is redundant with Land of Israel
Even ‘in antiquity’ is redundant with ‘historically’
It feels odd to go out of our way to say it’s known as the Land of Israel in Jewish tradition, but not mention that ‘the Holy Land’ is primarily from Christian tradition. Since we’re trying to trim the lede, better to remove the lone line about Jewish tradition than add extra words explaining the traditions of the other names. 2601:80:8600:EFA0:918E:34E3:B31B:62A0 (talk) 16:59, 7 June 2024 (UTC)
The lede has been recently expanded in a way that goes into excessive details, against four well-composed paragraphs recommended by MOS:LEDE and the 400 word ideal maximum by MOS:LEADLENGTH. Makeandtoss (talk) 15:37, 7 June 2024 (UTC)
Reliable tertiary sources can help provide broad summaries of topics that involve many primary and secondary sources and may help evaluate due weight, especially when primary or secondary sources contradict each other.), scholarly books about the state of Israel (particularly their tables of contents and introductions), articles in journals that provide an overview of the state of Israel. These are the WP:BESTSOURCES for this article, and what we should look at when determining questions of due weight (WP:DUE) and significant aspects (WP:ASPECT). The problem with this article, for years, is that everybody wants to argue about Israel but nobody wants to do the work of pulling the books and reading. One possible starting point would be a Table of Contents Analysis (like this or this). Another is to look at other encyclopedia articles (as was done here). Levivich (talk) 16:37, 7 June 2024 (UTC)
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Third lead paragraph has an extra comma that should be deleted, since it doesn't fulfill any grammatic prupose:
The West Bank and Gaza Strip, were taken by Jordan and Egypt respectively.
Also at the end of second lead paragraph, there should probably be a comma and a while instead of an extra and to separate different events. I think it reads better like this:
led to intercommunal conflict between Jews and Arabs,[26][27] while the 1947 UN Partition Plan triggered civil war between them.
Thanks--2800:2503:4:DEA7:1:0:C9BA:5F63 (talk) 23:35, 13 June 2024 (UTC)
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− | It has one of the highest standards of living in the Middle East and Asia, | + | It has one of the highest standards of living in the Middle East and Asia, ranks as one of the most advanced countries, and is considered both a regional and middle power. |
For regional power:[4]
rdl381 (talk) 09:12, 15 June 2024 (UTC)
References
The UK is a developed country and has the world's sixth-largest economy by nominal gross domestic product (GDP). It is a recognised nuclear state, and is ranked fourth globally in military expenditure. The UK has been a permanent member of the UN Security Council since its first session in 1946. It is a member of the Commonwealth of Nations, the Council of Europe, the G7, the OECD, NATO, the Five Eyes, AUKUS and the CPTPP.This to me makes the United Kingdom's status as a global power quite clear without having to use another loosely defined term, and is an example that should be followed with most articles in my opinion. Adam Black talk • contribs 12:30, 15 June 2024 (UTC)
Mark Heller stated that Israel has the power to block, but not the power to shape the regional order. Although its power is impressive "and almost certainly sufficient to defend its security against threats by others" (Heller 2011: 238), Israel is not a regional power that is able to manage the regional order. It tries to prevent the emergence of any other power that could seriously damage it, but has no soft or smart power, as this contribution will show..
Israel's sales of advanced arms and technology as a middle-power foreign policy tool. By way of doing so it discusses the nature and characteristics of this policy, as well as its various components, and assesses the extent of its success in achieving its goals. It concludes that despite Washington's occasional opposition to its arms export policies, Israel's strategy has proved highly successful and can serve as a model for middle powers seeking to improve their status and prestige in the contemporary international system.
We have discussed this before (see here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Israel/Archive_103#History_section), but I'm realizing now that even the work of the traditionalist historians (eg Shapira and Karsh) start their history of israel in the late 19th century. It might also be worth noting that Britannica starts the history section around the same time period.
So, I propose the reduce the first 3 subsections (Bronze and Iron Ages, Classical antiquity, and Late antiquity and the medieval period) to a single paragraph the reason being that the majority of the sources cited do not discuss the modern state of Israel. The content does not belong here unless RS connect the discussion to the modern state.
No part of the first paragraph uses sources that refer to the modern state.
Content worth keeping in the following paragraphs, which has some relevance to the modern state:
Modern archaeology has largely discarded the historicity of the narrative in the Torah concerning the patriarchs, The Exodus and the tales of conquest in the Book of Joshua, and instead views the narrative as the Israelites' national myth. However, some elements of these traditions do appear to have historical roots.
and:
In 634–641 CE, the Rashidun Caliphate conquered the Levant. Over the next six centuries, control of the region transferred between the Umayyad, Abbasid, Fatimid caliphates, and subsequently the Seljuks and Ayyubid dynasties. The population drastically decreased during the following several centuries, dropping from an estimated 1 million during Roman and Byzantine periods to about 300,000 by the early Ottoman period, and there was a steady process of Arabization and Islamization brought on by non-Muslim emigration, Muslim immigration, seeking economic prosperity, and local conversion. The end of the 11th century brought the Crusades, papally-sanctioned incursions of Christian crusaders intent on wresting Jerusalem and the Holy Land from Muslim control and establishing Crusader States. The Ayyubids pushed back the crusaders before Muslim rule was fully restored by the Mamluk sultans of Egypt in 1291.
which explains to some extent a transition into the modern era.
Otherwise, these sections are totally disconnected from the modern state and the content simply does not belong here.
It's possible that some of the sources I was not able to check *do* connect the discussion to the modern state, but the content currently does *not* do that. So we either fix that, or dramatically reduce the content in this section.
I would make the edits myself, but I know they would be instantly reverted. DMH223344 (talk) 20:14, 17 June 2024 (UTC)
413,471 bytes and 717 references, in my opinion, are too many. JacktheBrown (talk) 14:28, 19 June 2024 (UTC)
Throughout history the region was ruled by pagan, Jewish, Christian, and Muslim states, and it holds a special place in Jewish tradition.
The main relevant policy is MOS:LEADREL, which only one editor referred to explicitly. "According to the policy on due weight, emphasis given to material should reflect its relative importance to the subject, according to published reliable sources. This is true for both the lead and the body of the article. If there is a difference in emphasis between the two, editors should seek to resolve the discrepancy."
The lead is 472 words and includes, "Israel has been internationally criticised in its occupation of the Palestinian territories, and been accused of committing war crimes and crimes against humanity against the Palestinians by human rights organizations and UN officials." Many editors wanted to add "including the implementation of policies that amount to apartheid" per the proposal, citing DUE. Many editors didn't, citing UNDUE. Many comments compared the leads to other articles, or discussed reliable sources generally. There were comments that referred to the body, but few explicitly focused on any lead/body discrepancies. There are 7 sections in the article before See Also, including History, Econ, Geog, Government, Culture; apartheid is a subsection of Government. During the discussion the ICJ published on this area, so editors discussed withdrawing the RFC.
Given everything, I close this RFC as no consensus and recommend discussions clarify key policies from the start to focus discussion on improving the article, Tom B (talk) 12:32, 21 July 2024 (UTC)Noting the existence of the subsection Israel#Apartheid accusations in the body of the article, should the text that has been bolded below be added to the lead of this article? Israel's practices in its occupation of the Palestinian territories have drawn sustained international criticism. It has been accused of committing war crimes and crimes against humanity, including the implementation of policies that amount to apartheid, against the Palestinian people by human rights organizations and United Nations officials.
starship.paint (RUN) 04:48, 2 June 2024 (UTC)
Option A: Include as proposed.
Option B: Do not include the bolded text.
Option C: Other.
academic experts on the Middle East ... 557 scholars responded ... the percentage of scholars who describe the current situation as “a one state reality akin to apartheid” grew even faster, from 59 percent in February to 65 percent in this latest polldated September 2021. starship.paint (RUN) 09:04, 3 June 2024 (UTC)
It has been accused of committing war crimes and crimes against humanity. Adding additional details would be WP:UNDUE - I note we don't even include highly relevant details around the background to the formation of Israel, such as the holocaust. BilledMammal (talk) 07:41, 2 June 2024 (UTC)
the accusation is simply WP:DUEper Starship.paint. But one semantic quibble, is apartheid generally considered a 'war crime' or a 'crime against humanity', which the word 'including' implies.Pincrete (talk) 08:21, 2 June 2024 (UTC)
It has been accused of committing war crimes and crimes against humanity.Adam Black talk • contribs 11:05, 2 June 2024 (UTC)
According to UN bodies and human rights organisations, Israeli policies towards [or: treatment of] the Palestinian minority may have at times amounted to war crimes, crimes against humanity, and apartheid. — kashmīrī TALK 11:26, 2 June 2024 (UTC)
This subject is highly controversial, many countries do not agree that there is Apartheid and various organizations including the UN who support such allegations, are sometimes accused of bias against Israel." Does that really matter though? The implicit suggestion that you are making is that the UN is wrong and has an anti-Israel bias. I'm not accusing you of anything, but think of it this way:
It has been accused of committing war crimes, crimes against humanity and implementing policies amounting to apartheidwould do. DeCausa (talk) 12:44, 2 June 2024 (UTC)
Even Iran seems to be friendlierI'm not at all surprised. By all accounts, Iranians in Iran have incomparably more rights than Palestinians in the Occupied Territories. An encyclopaedia ought to reflect that. — kashmīrī TALK 16:44, 3 June 2024 (UTC)
"when wrongdoing is asserted but undetermined", but not elsewhere. Iskandar323 (talk) 14:19, 6 June 2024 (UTC)
"In Israel, which the vast majority of nations consider being the area defined by its pre-1967 borders, the two tiered-citizenship structure and bifurcation of nationality and citizenship result in Palestinian citizens having a status inferior to Jewish citizens by law. While Palestinians in Israel, unlike those in the OPT, have the right to vote and stand for Israeli elections, these rights do not empower them to overcome the institutional discrimination they face from the same Israeli government, including widespread restrictions on accessing land confiscated from them, home demolitions, and effective prohibitions on family reunification.And then, some sort of off-topic rambling suggesting you believe that there is some sort of issue pertaining to false balance. The proposal in discussion, however, is about the lead summary, and the proposed edit merely an addendum of an already on-page accusation to the existing statement on accusations in the lead. Iskandar323 (talk) 13:53, 5 June 2024 (UTC)
Unnecessary politicization of a complex article anyway." This isn't a reason to exclude it from the lede. "
Besides, since Arabs in Israel are full citizens with equal rights, it is wrong to add the word apartheid". How about equal treatment? How many settlers have been charged for extrajudicial killings of Palestinians in the West Bank? Soldiers participate in the violence. An example just from a day or so ago: . "
For every person who claims that there is apartheid, there are many others who answer that there is violent and deadly terrorism from the other side, and the limitations that Israel has placed, stem from deep security challenges." Read WP:FALSEBALANCE. Professor Penguino (talk) 22:50, 5 June 2024 (UTC)
includes mention of significant criticism or controversies. The apartheid accusation is a significant criticism/controversy, there is not any doubt about this. Selfstudier (talk) 11:11, 6 June 2024 (UTC)
Issues with the lead and the incessant want or need of some editors to keep the article embroiled in other issues like adding "too much detail" reflected in multiple RFC's to clutter the lead that is also covered in MOS:LEADNO which is under the subheading of "Relative emphasis" that is covered by both the NPOV policy on "Due weight" and our wording of "indiscriminate detail". Read the paragraph on "equal validity" can create a false balance (False balance) and check out extraordinary claims.
No matter the cause of war or the forces involved, the results are often the same. Armed conflicts mean devastating loss of civilian life, massive displacement and violations of human rights and international humanitarian law.Similar would be using the organization on abortion in the lead. The site states, Abortion is a Human Right — Help Fight Back. -- Otr500 (talk) 01:20, 17 June 2024 (UTC)
Hamas launched a surprise attack on Israel, killing mostly civilians, and taking hostages back to Gaza … 1988 Hamas charter was widely described as antisemitic … Hamas has carried out attacks against Israeli civilians and soldiers, including suicide bombings and indiscriminate rocket attacks … designated Hamas as a terrorist organizationThe lede of Syria says that it is a
totalitarian dictatorship with a comprehensive cult of personality around the Assad family … one of the most dangerous places for journalists … the most corrupt country in the WANA region … epicentre of a state-sponsored multi-billion dollar illicit drug cartel, the largest in the world … Assad forces causing more than 90% of the total civilian casualties … 7.6 million internally displaced people … 80% facing food insecurity, Meanwhile, Turkey, even with a 700+ year history, has a lede that outright says that
the Ottoman government committed genocides against its Armenian, Greek and Assyrian subjects. starship.paint (RUN) 02:35, 18 June 2024 (UTC)
Selfstudier (talk) 09:33, 20 July 2024 (UTC)
New RfC has been started due to the result of the closure review of the previous RfC and the recommendation above. Also there were concerns that the previous RfC initial statement was not neutral and the previous RfC was not widely advertised. I intend to remedy that so that the outcome of this new RfC will be less controversial. starship.paint (RUN) 04:54, 2 June 2024 (UTC)
@Starship.paint: is completely out of line making this. (voluntarily removing this line as it strays outside of WP:GF) There was no consensus on WP:AN that the previous RfC should be discarded entirely and a new one made, as was pointed out above by Iskandar123. There was merely consensus that my closure decision was ill-guided. This is a unilateral and extreme decision taken bereft of any consensus. JDiala (talk) 09:12, 2 June 2024 (UTC)
Comment An ICJ ruling on Israeli practices in the OPT is due in the near future. The Implications of An ICJ Finding that Israel is Committing the Crime Against Humanity of Apartheid says that during the recent public hearings, "24 States and three international organizations made the further claim that Israel’s policies and practices amount to a system of institutionalized racial discrimination and domination breaching the prohibition of apartheid under international law and/or amount to prohibited acts of racial discrimination." It seems the only question is whether it is now or later. Selfstudier (talk) 12:11, 2 June 2024 (UTC)
Comment Wikipedia reflects the world we live in and Israel has been accused of apartheid by plenty of notable people and this has been covered by plenty of notable sources. This is just one in a list of long allegations against the state. Colonisers, genocide, apartheid. Use whatever catchphrase you can find to demonise it. What's happening on this page and with other articles on Wikipedia is an online pogrom. MaskedSinger (talk) 05:20, 3 June 2024 (UTC)
percentage of scholars who describe the current situation as “a one state reality akin to apartheid” grew even faster, from 59 percent in February to 65 percent in this latest poll.starship.paint (RUN) 06:13, 3 June 2024 (UTC)
What's happening on this page and with other articles on Wikipedia is an online pogrom.
Notifiying @JDiala, FortunateSons, TucanHolmes, Makeandtoss, Gorgonopsi, Marokwitz, Professor Penguino, K.e.coffman, Levivich, A Socialist Trans Girl, and Alaexis: from previous RfC/ starship.paint (RUN) 04:57, 2 June 2024 (UTC)
Notifiying @Wafflefrites, Selfstudier, Alexanderkowal, Iskandar323, Objective3000, Moxy, Adam Black, and ScottishFinnishRadish: from previous RfC. starship.paint (RUN) 04:59, 2 June 2024 (UTC)
Note: WP:ISRAEL, WP:PALESTINE, WP:LAW, WP:HUMANRIGHTS, WP:DISCRIMINATION has been notified of this discussion, as well as WP:ZA (South Africa), because I was thinking they know more about apartheid, though BilledMammal has objected to the last one on my talk page. starship.paint (RUN) 07:28, 2 June 2024 (UTC)
@Starship.paint: Would you be open to withdrawing this RFC and the reopening of a new one, given the recent ICJ ruling in which these discussions and votes did not take into consideration? This is particularly important as the ICJ ruling established the existence of apartheid as fact, as int. human rights organizations long have; so the attribution in the proposed text would become redundant. Makeandtoss (talk) 09:48, 20 July 2024 (UTC)
The question may be withdrawn by the poster (e.g., if the community's response became obvious very quickly).. But I am not fully confident that this situation applies. starship.paint (RUN) 14:15, 20 July 2024 (UTC)
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