There is a discussion here (update: now archived to here) which pertains to the flag used in the top infobox. If you feel so inclined, please join in the conversation. Primefac (talk) 22:04, 12 January 2017 (UTC)
- comment updated by jnestorius(talk) 10:22, 4 May 2017 (UTC)
- Further discussion, including about this colour image, took place
here (update: see below). -- Ham105 (talk) 22:25, 2 May 2017 (UTC)
Hi VEO15 and Primefac. It should be possible to reach a consensus on this one that satisfies most concerns. I think both of you have got aspects of it right. But the way to go here is to try to represent, as best we can, the design used at the time and focus less on labelling the infobox with an official flag name. Many teams — Australia, South Africa, Scotland, and Ireland — did not use "official" national flags for the Games (and it seems England used the union flag rather than the St George cross).
In regard to the Liston & Maguire article being referenced — While I'm sure it is a worthy study of the social and political history of Ireland's participation at these games, it does not provide definitive detail of the flag that was used. I cannot access the full document myself, but if the text states "a golden harp on a blue (or possibly green) background", then it's clear that the authors have not seen the flag itself (perhaps a black and white photograph at best, and even that's doubtful if not included with the article). Not surprising given it was published in 2016. Any mention the article makes comparing the 1930 Empire Games flag to Leinster's flag or arms must be considered in this context - i.e. it's general comment about the Irish harp symbol; they don't even know what colour the games flag was.
Secondly, this colour image, from a photo collection of Hamilton, Ontario memorabilia from 1930 British Empire Games, indicates that the flag used by the Ireland team had a green background, rather than blue. The flags shown, assuming numbered 1 to 11 from left to right, are:
- 1, 2, 4, 9, 11: Red ensigns (x5)
- 3: Green and white field (Per fess Argent and Vert)
- 5: Yellow field, red motif
- 6: Union flag
- 7: Green field, gold/yellow motif
- 8, 10: Blue ensigns (x2)
Attempting to match these to the 11 participating teams:
- Blue ensigns (x2):
- British Guyana
- New Zealand
- Red ensigns (x5):
- Australia: The national blue ensign was by convention reserved for government use. Organisations/private citizens used the red ensign variant.
- South Africa: The orange, white, blue flag adopted in 1928 is not depicted - it would seem the earlier red ensign was used at these games.
- Canada: (Maybe they used the union flag like in 1912 as per VEO15 - but I think more likely their red ensign).
- Bermuda
- Newfoundland
- Britain and Ireland:
- Wales - 3. Green and white field (red dragon not visible)
- Scotland - 5. Yellow field, red motif (likely Royal Standard of Scotland)
- England - 6. Union flag (the plain St George cross, commonly used in recent times, seems not to be depicted).
- Ireland - 7. Green field, gold motif.
Comments from both editors above mention a bust in this photo - VEO15, "shows the bust on the harp"; and Primefac (albeit not conclusively) "can sort-of see the bust".
I think there is a head outlined in profile and, curving up from the back of the neck, what looks to be an angel's wing. To me it is most likely a winged-maiden variant of the harp. If the field is green rather than blue, though, using the 1542–1800 Royal Standard of Ireland doesn't fit. There are, however, other Green Flags of Ireland already in Wikipedia:
Variants of the Green Flag with winged-maiden harp.
As an aside, there is a precedenct to the Green Flag being used at athletics events: "In 1906 when Peter O'Connor won the long jump championship at the Olympic Games in Athens, he successfully objected to the raising of the union flag ... in honour of his victory and succeeded in having a green poplin harp flag, which had been provided by his thoughtful supporters, hoisted instead."Flags Of The World – Ireland: Green Flag
Using a flag along these lines would, in my view, provide the best "fit" to the information available. I propose that one of these green flags be used for the article, labelled as Ireland Green Flag,a (or similar) with details in a footnote as below. -- Ham105 (talk) 10:19, 13 January 2017 (UTC)
Notes:
^a The exact design of the flag used by the Ireland team at the 1930 Empire Games is uncertain. However, the flag was not the Irish tricolour, considered by unionists as specific to the Free State; instead it showed "a golden harp on a blue (or possibly green) background".[1]
A colour image, from a memorabilia collection in Hamilton shows the flags of all eleven teams at the 1930 games.[2] Seven of the flags are defaced red or blue ensigns, representing Australia, British Guyana, Bermuda, Canada, Newfoundland, New Zealand and South Africa. The other four flags represent Wales (green and white field, red dragon not visible), Scotland (yellow field with red motif, likely the Royal Standard of Scotland), England (the Union flag) and Ireland (green field with gold motif).
From a black and white photograph at the opening ceremony,[3] the team flag third from the right appears to show a maiden's head and wing above harp strings. Not all of the motif is clearly seen, but this might indicate that the Ireland team's flag featured a "winged-maiden" variant of the Irish harp.
References:
Sources:
I have downloaded the Liston & Maguire article and it does NOT, contain the text referred to - 'on a blue (or possibly green) background' anywhere.
It does state 'In Hamilton, the Irish flag was a golden harp on a blue background, the “old Irish flag” proposed in 1928 – not the Tricolour used in prior and subsequent Olympics or the more “neutral” flag of the four provinces already adopted by the Irish Rugby Football Union and Hockey and Golfing Unions.'
That, to me, is pretty definitive, and the colour should be changed to blue.213.202.161.252 (talk) 04:51, 12 April 2018 (UTC)
Please see pages 326–327 of Diplomacy & Statecraft, Volume 27, 2016 - Issue 2, as archived here on 2016-06-11 which contradicts your statement. For avoidance of doubt, as per this screenshot, the text reads:
In Hamilton, the Irish flag was a golden harp on a blue (or possibly green) background, the “old Irish flag” proposed in 1928—not the Tricolour used in prior and subsequent Olympics or the more “neutral” flag of the four provinces already adopted by the Irish Rugby Football Union and Hockey and Golfing Unions.
It is clear that Liston & Maguire did not know the colour of the flag used in Hamilton from their article as published in 2016. Moreover, memorabilia from 1930 British Empire Games includes a colour image of a green flag with gold/yellow motif, as mentioned in my comment above. -- Ham105 (talk) 06:29, 12 April 2018 (UTC)