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I just made some changes that I'm sure will bother some people. I cleaned up and removed some biases from a few sections and even removed a couple paragraphs. I didn't want to, but the article is so incredibly biased. It sounds like it came from 1960s academia rather than modern hypnosis or even 1960 hypnotherapy. Claims like "anyone could be hypnotised except perhaps the very young." What is that about? Modern hypnotherapy knows that young children are amongst the easiest to hypnotise. Also the suggestibility studies need to be better referenced and discussed. They did some real harm to the field of hypnosis. The main criticisim is that they had a single induction tried on many people and then drew all sorts of conclusions about hypnotizability that are just plain wrong. There is no single induction in hypnosis. It's a dynamic experience with constant two web feedback going on. I hope someone will rewrite this whole article. I thnk it needs to be written in a way that covers all the major views without bias, have proper formatting structure, and definitely stops taking the 1960s academic views for granted. Another thing, definitely include some discussions about the AMA in the article and the phases they went through on trying to deal with hypnosis. And you can't have a hypnosis article without a few sentences on what stage hypnotists do and a couple paragraphs on the effects milton erickson and then NLP had on the field.
The very first sentence of the article states "Hypnosis does not have a single definition that is universally applicable," but this does not seem to me to be a useful way to explain the debate. There are arguments about whether it exists; there are arguments about what it can and cannot affect; but the basic definition seems to me to be fairly universal. -- Antaeus Feldspar 22:46, 18 Apr 2005 (UTC)
A new subheader was added to give the views of "the Skeptic Society of USA". There's a problem with this: "Skeptic Society of USA" gets no hits. Neither does "Skeptic Society of the USA"; "Skeptic Society of America" only gets two hits. Either this is a non-notable group or someone misremembered the name, in which case we have to ask whether they're misremembering the group's position as well. I've reverted until we get more clarification. -- Antaeus Feldspar 11:41, 6 May 2005 (UTC)
Rebroad changed the second paragraph of the introduction to remove the prefix "In popular culture and fiction, ...". I'd like to revert this; I feel it is important to distinguish between the fictional portrayal of hypnotism and actual phenomenon. The popular culture version of hypnotism consistently portrays hypnotism in a certain way. On the other hand, there is great disagreement even inside the hypnosis community regarding what hypnosis is; with some groups denying that the practices of another group even constitute hypnosis. As a result, it is easy to fall into a semantic quagmire that while superficially appearing to be an argument about the nature of hypnosis is instead an argument over the definition of the word. In addition, from a strictly stylistic perspective, the introduction to the next paragraph ("While hypnosis in the real world is often ascribed these characteristics to varying degrees ...") does not make sense without a contrasting introduction to the first paragraph. Lauciusa 04:31, 3 Jun 2005 (UTC)
I know of a case where in an unusual move the police used a hypnosis to help a witness recall part a license plate of an arson suspect, which the witness had originally noted but could not remember at the time of questioning. Under hypnosis, she was able to remember the partial plate number, which turned out to be correct.
So what about this topic? Is it all bull? Or is it real?
Jugalator appears to know nothing about this topic otherwise he would not have made his comments.
It is real: however the circumstances that created this "realness" need to be understood. Firstly, look at the environment - maybe hall full of excitement: this creates a trance like state in many. The hypnotist will have a choice a many suitable, highly suggestable individuals. Secondly this trance state is enhanced when the suggestable subject gets on the stage. Third, there is an expectation - the subject expects to be placed into a hypnosis. Next, there is an unwritten contract between the subject - that hypnosis is to be performed, and that the subject agrees to this contract, by going into trance - there will be no conscious resistance. The combination of these steps in a suggestable subject are such that the induction, when performed, will appear instantaneous.
A interesting point to note is that the longest running hypnosis show is in Hollywood. Lots of suggestable people with creative minds in the locality. TJMonaghan
I added the following paragraph: "However, some controlled scientific experiments seem to suggest that hypnosis may change conscious experience in a way not possible when people are not under hypnosis, at least in "highly hypnotizable" people. For example, according to one of these experiments, color perception was changed by hypnosis in "highly hypnotizable" people as determined by positron emission tomography (PET) scans." I also added a link to that study. I ignore if the study is representative, but it seems to have been at least interesting. My intention is to add to the neutrality of the discussion. The first impression I got from the article is that there were no serious evidence that hypnosis could be a real neurological phenomenon. This seems not to be the case for some experts, (see for instance ), although it is clear that this is still the subject of debate.
I removed the following sentence that had been added to the end of the introductory paragraph:
However this view fails to explain the countless documented cases of hypnosis being used successfully as an anesthetic during surgery, among other effects hypnosis had been shown to produce that cannot be mere pretending.
The fact that hypnosis is believed by its supporters to not feel pain even under painful stimuli is already mentioned in the intro paragraph. It could use more fleshing out in the article, so it'd be a good thing if those "countless documented cases" got documented in the article -- on a quick look, I can't see which section would be best, but we can find or make one.
The rest of the sentence seems to be trying to extrapolate from this one fact into the conclusion that the debate is over. Which it isn't... even if it should be, it isn't, and Wikipedia shouldn't be taking sides and stating "Because of X fact, anyone still arguing the other side has been proven wrong." -- Antaeus Feldspar 22:57, 20 July 2005 (UTC)
Hypnosis, Scientology and Neuro-linguistic Programming
The New Age notions of Scientology and neuro-linguistic programming have both been associated with a covert command type of hypnosis. The hypnotic commands of NLP are said to be an unethical use of hypnosis as the written code of ethics of most psychologist associations state that openness is important with practitioner/client relations.
According to the Australian Report, Scientology's auditing is also said to result in command hypnosis, which under certain circumstances may lead to potentially damaging dissociative states. Both NLP and Scientology use these kind of command hypnosis techniques for clearing or re-programming, and past life regression therapy, in accordance with the New Age belief in reincarnation.
I don't know if anything is salvageable from this. I think that if salvage is to happen, it would probably start with finding out what "the Australian Report" is, determining if it's a credible/important source, and if so finding out what it says first-hand. -- Antaeus Feldspar 23:42, 3 August 2005 (UTC)
The NPOV way to introduce a subject is to give it a fair hearing in the introduction, and present the sort of intense criticism I found in a later and appropriate section. There are a variety of opinions, and they all will be heard, but the former introduction was not neutral or encyclopedic. Please help me in further proofreading the article, its very long and needs alot of work. ¸,ø¤º°`°º¤ø,¸¸,ø¤º°`°º¤ø,¸¸,ø¤º°`°º¤ø,¸ 00:10, 25 August 2005 (UTC)
I disagree w that too, because its not what I said. I said we give it a fair hearing in the intro, and leave the smear job for its own section ;) Tasks you can do 00:40, 26 August 2005 (UTC)
I'm not really sure what your talking about, but if you have a psychologist you can cite who agrees w this "hypnosis doesn't exist" stuff, that would help alot. Tasks you can do 15:17, 31 August 2005 (UTC)
I know you are but what am I? And where are those cites I asked for 2 weeks ago? Sam Spade 00:52, 16 September 2005 (UTC)
Read Ewan Cameron (MKULTRA), and stop being so abrasive. When you make claims they are expected to be backed up w cites, its not my job to verify your claims for you. Practice rigour. Sam Spade 16:10, 16 September 2005 (UTC)
I never suggested there is no dispute, rather I asked you to cite some examples for the benefit of the article. Sam Spade 21:35, 20 September 2005 (UTC)
The original article is extremely unprofessional in its non-neutrality. If someone wants to learn about hypnosis from this encyclopedia, they are obviously not primarily interested in the arguments against it; they are interested in it itself. It's like creating an article on Judaism that begins with an argument supporting Christianity over it. The fact is, there is very little information in this article (original edit, I mean). Hopefully a real hypnotherapist will eventually rewrite it. -- CGameProgrammer 17:07, 7 October 2005 (UTC)
Regarding somnambulism. As far as "stating the effect of hypnosis on memory as undisputed", I'm not doing that (of course its disputed, everybody knows bad therapists instill false memories sometimes, particularly regarding past lives, alien abduction, and satanic ritual abuse), so I don't see how a cite is necessary. Sam Spade 17:26, 11 September 2005 (UTC)
This state can be induced by placing tension on binds, the client is receptive and suggestable, normally experiences memory loss, while becoming very aware of themselves and not their surroundings. James Braid (physician) referred to this as being a state of "nervous sleep". Ivan Pavlov demonstrated this behavior in Pidgeons by taking away the reinforcement, sleep resulted in the animals and it was referred to as "Cortical Inhibition".
Hypnosis can effect a persons judgement and therefore could potentially cause them harm. In the hand of a "Professional" seeking to promote their welfare it can produce profound effects and be a compliment to treatment. One can always resist Hypnosis if one so desires.
I reverted Spade's edit because I do not think it is appropiate to state categorically as a fact that Hypnosis is a trance state in the introduction. Not when associations like the APA themselves express such reservations - there is simply no clear mainstream scientific view that we can focus on. Nor do I consider it right to refer to the claims of hypnotists with vested interests as factual, instead of claims.
Any criticism we have here needs to be inline - not in its own section. Why? Because depending on how we start our interpretation of the phenomenon, this is going to inform every statement that is made. Criticism here isn't that about peripheral issues, but about everything, and so for everything we talk about, we need to be adopting the form: {What is objectively agreed}{What the proponents say it means}{What the critics say it means} The only appropiate way to treat this subject is to start with where the two viewpoints diverge, and then to go along the list of known facts and represent each side.
Remember our rule of thumb for judging NPOV - read through the article, and ask yourself: Which side is this on? If it is on any side, then we are in trouble.--Fangz 13:29, 17 September 2005 (UTC)
Woah.
I think that you should start with what is not disputed, which is that the theoretical base has come afterwards. The observed effects form the basis for the model that is only a "best fit" to the observations you make.
The fact that people can produce the effect, doesn't mean that they know the actual workings of it.
If you find the time, look up the historical perspective of hypnosis. I find that Tad James has a good description of a time line stretching from some ancient healers who used props and found them to be unnecessary.
Fundamental to the term hypnosis is the concept of a subconscious mind, trance and rapport.
A subconscious mind is a descriptive model of some other-than-rational traits that seem to govern how a person responds to and learns from exposure to different impressions.
A trance is an altered state of consciousness where your critical faculties are bypassed. You have different set of resources in different states, and a persons' state governs behavior. There is a common misconception that a trance is a relaxed state. A phobic reation to a spider is also a trance.
The idea of rapport is to establish a reflection in the other persons mind. Since all human states can be considered a trance with different qualities, the objective of an induction is to help the subject to produce a trance that includes rapport with the hypnotist.
It would be better to discuss edits here instead of hitting the revert button.... If reverts continue I will place this page on WP:RPP ≈ jossi ≈ 23:03, 26 September 2005 (UTC)
I also would welcome your participation jossi. Sam Spade 12:45, 29 September 2005 (UTC)
This article is so poorly constructed and out of step with research and theory that it is not worth editing. I would suggest scrapping it and wait for a more expert writer to take an interest rather than present this as an authoritative entry. It certainly makes Wik look bad! -- unsigned comment by Hyp (talk • contribs)
I submitted an RfC, and am asking editers who are familiar w the subject to lend a hand in overhauling the article. Sam Spade 12:55, 29 September 2005 (UTC)
I added a list of things to do with its first item. If consensus can be reached on what should be on the list, then that's a good thing! :-) Agreeing how to go about doing what's on the list would be even better! There have been plenty of substantive and process proposals made here. Although I have some experience with hypnosis, I don't consider myself to be an expert. However, I do know a resolvable issue when I see one. My main proposal at this point is to use this list as a tool to find and document the "highest common ground" for what should be included in this article. Then just go out and do it! ;-) — RDF talk 14:34, 29 September 2005 (UTC)
Hypnosis is a trance state similar in appearance to sonambulism, wherein a client is in touch with their subconscious. In this state the client is receptive and suggestable, as well as possessed of acute recall of memories, often even those not remembered consciously.
There has always been a certain amount of controversy regarding hypnotism, particularly in its precise definition. Among psychologists that practise hypnosis, some view hypnosis as an altered state of consciousness, others as a type of focused attention. The states invoked by clinical practitioners of these methods are very similar, implying that they are, in fact, describing the same phenomenon. The methods employed and the underlying methodologies have still not converged to the point where there is consensus on a single definition of hypnosis.
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Hypnosis is a psychological state whose existence and effects are strongly debated. Some believe that it is a state under which the subject's mind becomes so suggestible that the hypnotist, the one who induces the state, can command behavior that the subject would not choose to perform in a conscious state (even behavior to be performed after the subject has left the hypnotic state, through post-hypnotic suggestion,) or even behavior the subject would be incapable of in a conscious state, such as not feeling pain, manifesting skin blisters as if the subject had been burned, or recalling things the subject's conscious memory does not retain. However, there is strong dispute and skepticism about what behavior and effects hypnosis can induce; some believe that the state does not actually exist, and that all effects of 'hypnotism' that have been observed are in actuality a combination of subjects' expectations (based on their beliefs of hypnotism's effects) and their desire to please the hypnotist (see Hawthorne Effect).
Not surprisingly, given the disagreements described above, there is also wide disagreement about whether it has uses in fields such as mental health, medicine and law enforcement. Some promote hypnotism as a powerful tool for therapists to treat patients, claiming that it can bring up to consciousness painful repressed memories. Some even claim that it can retrieve repressed memories of alien abductions, Satanic ritual abuse, or memories from past lives. Others point to this very fact, that subjects under hypnosis can develop and come to wholly believe in "memories" that are implausible (or even proven false by existing evidence), as proof that hypnosis is, if it even exists, a tool proved too unreliable to be safely used in any important undertaking.
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The following text was added to the "Hypnotism as a social construct" section. It has been removed, since it violates NPOV by stating only one POV as fact and provides nothing in the way of verifiable evidence for that POV. -- Antaeus Feldspar 18:04, 4 October 2005 (UTC)
Hypnosis is not about strong social expectations. It is a trance state. This state has been know for thousands of years. No one in their right mind would endure painful and agonizing medical proceedures while under hypnosis, simply to play a part or please their hypnotist. And yet, under hypnosis thousands of surgical prceedures have been preformed over many years. The patients typically reporting little to no discomfort, even from exceedingly painful operations, and often no recallections while under hypnosis either. Consciousness does not corrisponed to any particular location or mechanism of the brain either, and yet we all have an experience of being observing and conscious. Hypnosis is an altered or differing aspect of that consciousness. Hypnosis is a real thing, it does exist, as a part of our consciousness, our subconsciousness, and until science can point to the brain and say " there is the seat of consciousness, right there in such and such lobe." They will not be able to find the seat of hypnosis either.
One of the problems I think the article has in its current state is that the introduction is rather too long. The current version is still an improvement over the previous version, which stated that hypnosis "does not have a single definition that is universally applicable," because some people when they said "hypnosis" meant a scientific concept and some meant a fictional construct. Of course, they were both describing the same thing, but differing on whether it actually exists and what its actual effects were.
I have always believed that Wikipedia articles, like newspaper articles, have to be constructed with special attention to their introductions; the question that has to be asked is "if the reader quit reading after X sentences, what knowledge about the subject would they take away?" This is why it is absolutely an unacceptable proposition to rewrite the article so that the introduction actually hides the fact that the existence of hypnosis is disputed. However, the introduction is currently very large in size, trying to capture a) the whole cluster of beliefs about the effects of hypnotic states and post-hypnotic suggestions, b) the fact that various POVs exist about whether hypnosis exists at all and if it does, how much of its effects are real/exaggeration, c) what hypnosis is used for (i.e., why it's an important subject, always important for an introduction) and how these uses are affected by the strong debate over its existence and reliability. It's going to take a real careful eye, and discussion, to figure out how to move some of the detail from the introduction into the body of the article without removing important information that really should be imparted to anyone who starts reading the article. -- Antaeus Feldspar 00:49, 5 October 2005 (UTC)
Btw, we actually agree more than you think. We both think the article (in both forms) sucks and needs a rewrite. How about you and I engage in some mediation, and allow others to edit the article? Sam Spade 09:13, 6 October 2005 (UTC)
When have you cited your sources? and when have I not? Sam Spade 17:19, 6 October 2005 (UTC)
Is Hypnosis a significant fictional treatment of hypnotism? If it is, wouldn't a link to it be useful (especially since it can be read online)?
--Vibritannia 11:20, 6 October 2005 (UTC)
I dont mean to butt in in an editing dispute (so i'll refrain from editing), but the four tags on this articles page is REALLY too much. If the tag really MUST include more information, perhaps a custom tag to say what is absolutely necessary would be more appropriate. This just looks plain silly. --The Minister of War 15:57, 6 October 2005 (UTC)
Now thats a good idea! See below:
I began to edit the article, and first thing I cut most of the intro out, and created a criticisms section from it. Almost immediately, the edit war began, and little has been done since then. I therefore propose that we resolve the intro, and the criticism sections. Sam Spade 19:18, 6 October 2005 (UTC)
Here's how the problem looks from the other side: Sam "cut most of the intro out" because it's a POV he doesn't agree with. You can see on this talk page where he's called it a "smear job", "fluff", and "foolishness". He claims that the only "NPOV" way to handle the article is to give the "subject", by which he means his POV on the subject, "a fair hearing", by which he means supressing mention of differing POVs until later in the article, and writing the introduction as if the existence of hypnosis was agreed on by all significant POVs.
Does he claim, from time to time, that he is justified in excluding this POV because not enough citation has been made to show that this POV exists? Yes, indeed, he does make that claim. Is it shown to be a false claim? Yes it is; it is shown as a false claim by his own refusal to abide by the same standard. Note the following sentence which Sam introduced to the article: "In most cases one can resist hypnosis if one is aware of it, but there are examples of brainwashing or mind control where this is far more difficult." If you follow the links to those two articles you will find that there is even less consensus on the existence of brainwashing or mind control than of hypnosis; you will find that the American Psychological Association, when asked to consider the theories of mind control, specifically stated that no research as yet that met scientific standards had verified the existence of mind control. Sam is acting abusively as an editor, demanding a standard of citation he will not himself abide by.
The reason little progress has been made in improving this article is that the editors who actually care about making it an NPOV article that presents the various POVs and lets the reader decide from there have been kept busy fighting POV-pushers who want it to be a platform for their unverified opinions about mind control. -- Antaeus Feldspar 20:42, 6 October 2005 (UTC)
The intro is the criticisms section + a crappy intro combined. My idea is to carve citable portions of the criticisms section out, and rewrite the intro. Then, we should promptly proceed to overhaul/rewrite this article, which, while containing a dash of good content here and there, is a complete mess and disservice to the reader. Sam Spade 22:01, 6 October 2005 (UTC)
Sounds ok, how about:
Sam Spade 11:39, 7 October 2005 (UTC)
Stop doing what? Restoring the better version? I certainly won't stop doing that, until the article has been overhauled. I have repeatedly offered the olive branch to Antaeus, and he is well aware I am willing to engage in mediation and a mutual truce regarding this page. He, assumably, is not. Why you think his version is the default version is beyond me, but we clearly need an expert to overhaul the page w/o Antaeus discouraging them. Sam Spade 11:37, 11 October 2005 (UTC)
I won't agree to a false page protection. If you think the page needs protected, request as much @ WP:RfPP. What I have (repeatedly) proposed is that Antaeus and I agree to stop editing the article until we come to some agreement, or one of us leaves. Its bad for the article to be stuck in either version, both of which suck.
My best case scenario is that both Antaeus and I step back while someone else rewrites the article. If I recall correctly i never asked you to mediate, but generally requested your assistance w the article. Mediation requires consent, and Antaeus has yet to accept an offer of mediation. Sam Spade 16:47, 11 October 2005 (UTC)
I don't want to step on toes, but I'm wondering what qualifications people might have in writing this hypnosis information. I've found this article interesting, but controversial in some areas. I'm willing to add my two cents as a person knowledgeable and experienced in this area (PhD Clinical Hypnotherapy, MA Counseling Psych (Dec., 2005), MA Education, and 8+ years of clinical work). DrMattGomes 21:58, 9 October 2005 (UTC)
The fact is that the article is a disgrace. Your lack of expertise is self evident Antaeus, we need no further proof of that, and I must say it is imperative that you avoid this and related articles until you are willing to stop playing guard dog and allow improvements. This is a wiki, not some dictatorial nightmare w you playing the role of our Ministry of Truth. Sam Spade 11:42, 11 October 2005 (UTC)
I will read the appropriate documentation of NPOVs vs POVs. I understand the difficulty in claims of expertise, so I will be sure to cite sources. I also understand that hypnosis in itself is controversial and I try to talk about it in a balanced way. I look forward to my relative improvements. DrMattGomes 23:50, 13 October 2005 (UTC)
Well guys, its back to the old dispute again apparently. Sam, you are right Antaeus didnt agree to any mediation. However, when i offered my help, he did suggest the APA definition, actively engaging in making a compromise. I suggest you do the same, and we end this silly reverting! I am sure that starting the revert war all over again without making an active contribution on the talk pages will hurt your chances on any other mediation as well. --The Minister of War 08:10, 13 October 2005 (UTC)
The Minister of War 08:06, 17 October 2005 (UTC)
I want that expert anon (or somebody who's not antaeus) to overhaul the article completely. How about you do what you feel is best, TMoW, and I'll keep an eye. This excuciating step by step discussion is the source of the articles woes, not the solution to them. Sam Spade 21:03, 17 October 2005 (UTC)
I can't think of anything to say that doesn't involve repeating myself, or asking you to reread what I've already said. Sam Spade 01:09, 19 October 2005 (UTC)
We seem to be lacking consensus on how best to proceed. A RfC has already been filed, and 2 attempts at mediation have been rejected by antaeus. Perhaps we should request a survey, and then perhaps AMA advocates. I do not agree that point by point discussion will be fruitful either in resolving the interpersonal dispute, nor in producing a quality article. Both situation need a complete overhaul. Sam Spade 14:36, 19 October 2005 (UTC)
Page protection will always result in the wrong version being protected. ≈ jossi fresco ≈ 22:10, 13 October 2005 (UTC)
I have edited the to-do list above, to include how we want to structure the article further. A complete overhaul will only be succesful if we can agree on it, rather before than after the edits.
How does this look? The Minister of War 10:11, 19 October 2005 (UTC)
Does anyone agree w TMoW about the intro? Otherwise I have no objection to TMoW's bulleted points. My feelings about his thesis "A complete overhaul will only be succesful if we can agree on it, rather before than after the edits." are probably obvious, but suffice to say I entirely disagree. Sam Spade 14:36, 19 October 2005 (UTC)
Considering the contentious nature of the edit process here, I support the suggestion to work specific issues using the To Do list before making related substantive edits to the article. How else is a consensus process going to work here? — RDF talk 17:58, 19 October 2005 (UTC)
The above underscores why I see no point in attempting to discuss with antaeus. I have not been editing the article. I've been making clear all along I am willing to avoid editing the article (despite how badly it needs rewritten) so long as it is overhauled by others, without the interferance of anteaus. If he attempts to watchdog the article, reverting improvements and so forth, I will of course step in. If he allows progress, I am willing to avoid editing the article. What I will not do is engage in these endless fallacious discussions. Sam Spade 14:46, 20 October 2005 (UTC)
Sam Spade 21:04, 16 October 2005 (UTC)
"Would you like a toaster with that?" >;-o) — RDF talk 20:29, 19 October 2005 (UTC)
This might take a while to compile, but a section like this certainly is verifyable!!! :-)
Here's an example of a professional association.
Here's one example for a certification/licensure list.
— RDF talk 00:14, 20 October 2005 (UTC)
I started a draft here: /Pagacl draft. — RDF talk 04:16, 20 October 2005 (UTC)
Each individual accumulates a great deal of information and absorbs sensory input from the environment, which is assimilated as a neurological process of review and merging activity in the brain. During trance, it can be observed that other people demonstrate an interest in the subject's memory content, including the professional interest of healers or litigants.
Hypnosis is the result of a query method which seeks to elicit and extract specific content from an individual's memory, and the trance state which results from a professional trajectory of attention has as its primal purpose the retention of all memory content which might be otherwise lost during query sessions. Hypnosis and other query-related mental states are also the result of methods which challenge an individual's self-concept and perceptions stored as past memories.
It is possible that hypnosis seeks out the engrams embedded within the individual's psychological make-up, without aim to disperse such memories but also with the will and compehension that some thought and memory patterns are not easily maintained within mental mindset. Beadtot 10/19/2005 01:17, 20 October 2005 (UTC)
Note: this section is reserved strictly for discussion of proposed changes to the article. All edits falling outside that purview may be refactored out of the section.
Minister, a comment about the proposed structure of the intro: Currently, the fact that there is debate about whether hypnosis exists or not is listed as the last bullet point in the intro. Obviously, the possibility that hypnosis doesn't exist affects everything said about hypnosis (as does, of course, the failure to disclose that possibility) so I would suggest instead that the APA definition of hypnosis as a procedure be followed by a statement that the intent of the procedure is to induce a "hypnotic state", but that there is still debate about whether such a state actually exists.
After that is disclosed, the description of the appearance and effects claimed for the hypnotic state can continue, and the only other mention I think necessary for the intro of the belief that hypnosis may not exist is where the memory effects claimed for hypnosis are mentioned, since that is where hypnosis is most controversial.
With those two mentions, I don't think it's necessary to give it its own bullet point in the intro; as long as the casual reader is aware that there is debate, a fuller discussion of what those who don't believe in an objective hypnotic state believe is happening can wait for its own section in the article. -- Antaeus Feldspar 02:05, 20 October 2005 (UTC)
What I've read is that under normal circumstances this is true, but that hypnosis has been successfully used to brainwash prisoners of war. In this case, it is used in conjunction with sleep deprivation, etc. Does anyone know more authoritatively if this is true? CyborgTosser 11:33, 2 May 2004 (UTC)
It is possible that maltreatment such as sleep deprivation may increase a person's suggestibility but that is not hypnosis. Large sums of money can have the same effect and would probably be more reliable. ping 07:24, 4 May 2004 (UTC)
However having written that I am aware that the difficulty may lie in the definition. i have never seen a really good definition of hypnosis and I am not sure it is possible in English. Practically every definition have seen is really just a summary of observations. "You are hypnotized when you show the signs of being a hypnotized person" Not a good definition.
ping 08:10, 5 May 2004 (UTC)
One thing I have to clear up, however. It is possible(if you try) to shift a subject from sleep into hypnosis if done properly. Don't rely on it as it's hard to do and you might wake the subject up if they sleep too lightly.
CFSworks 10:19, 4 July 2005 (MDT)
This page needs more organisation with more headings. This will probably mean an upheaval of the content (although little deletion). However, the content will need to be moved. This does not mean that content is less important than other content just because it does not appear at the beginning of the article.
Suggestion from TJMonaghan Subheading required for Benefits to Clients for the clinical application of Clincial Hypnosis.
British article that I found, that could be incorporated into the main body of text. Note: for american readers The primary care NHS GP sugery clinic described below is a health clinical funded by the british govt's Health Dept.
Dobbin, A. et al (2004) Impact on health status of a hypnosis clinic in general practice. Contemporary Hypnosis Vol 21 (4): 153-160
The impact on health status of hypnosis was investigated in a primary care NHS GP surgery clinic, with referrals from a Local Health Care Cooperative (LHCC) with 85,000 patients. The Medical Outcomes Study Short Form-36 Health Survey (SF36) pre and post treatment was completed by patients referred with mental health problems, medical problems and for smoking cessation. One hundred and fifteen patients successfully completed SF36 questionnaires before and six weeks after the intervention. Categories of treatment were smoking cessation, mental health, and medical. In the case of referrals for smoking cessation there were no significant changes in mental, social or physical function six weeks after the intervention. In the case of mental health referrals, which were predominantly anxiety related, there was a large and significant effect on the SF-36 in emotional role and mental role and a moderate effect on social role and mental health. Self-hypnosis was in widespread use after treatment, even in those whose perceived problem appeared not to have improved. The results suggest that simple hypnosis techniques could have a significant impact on mental health. This could have implications for promoting mental health as well as for treating mental illness, and needs to be tested further by a randomized, controlled trial.
I agree with Golbez that too much was removed, but the explanation that Freud's disenchantment with hypnosis came about only because his gums were bad and therefore he couldn't lead people into hypnotic trance seems frankly preposterous. Can anyone lend support to the claim, or should it really be removed? -- Antaeus Feldspar 16:53, 19 Sep 2004 (UTC)
A paragraph needs to be added about hypnosis as portrait in popular culture, along with refrences to films for example.
Removed the following material as it is factually dubious only in those places where it is not completely wrong. -- Antaeus Feldspar 22:56, 5 Dec 2004 (UTC)
Who took out the clean-up notice? This is still unmitigated academic garbage that skirts the issue that hypnosis is verbal mind control. "Hypnosis, as defined by the American Psychological Association Division of Psychological Hypnosis, " AND how does the CIA define hypnosis? Is hypnosis that much different from from cult or religious indoctrination? .. -geepee 00:47, 6 Dec 2004 (UTC)
I propose that all sections under State vs non-state be split into a separate page called Theories of Hypnosis. These sections are large enough to make their own page, and this article badly needs shortening. Vizjim (talk) 17:29, 18 November 2021 (UTC) @Myrvin, Miistermagico, Epinoia, DolyaIskrina, Lindsay658, and ...: Would welcome input from engaged editors. Vizjim (talk) 17:39, 18 November 2021 (UTC)
Entirely setting aside the central issue of the marginalization of the "hypnotism" of Braid for a moment, the entire issue of "length" of the article is a direct consequence of the orientation of the article itself -- something that is immediately telegraphed by the article's title of "hypnosis". This deliberately chosen orientation has the entire article, as written
(a) centred on the "hypnosis" of Bernheim and Liébeault (rather than the "hypnotism" of Braid),
and from this
(b) it is compelled to provide details of the theories and practices of every modern hybrid of the "hypnosis" of Bernheim and Liébeault,
and, as well,
(c) it completely side-steps the simple and non-complex fact that the term "hypnosis" is equivocal, wherein entirely different entities are being named by the same word (e.g., "ear" of corn, and "ear" on the side of your head),
which is compounded by the fact that,
(d) much of the article seems to (mistakenly and implicitly) suggest that the term "hypnosis" is an essentially contested concept, wherein the argument is over the best instantiation of an (otherwise) in-the-abstract, universally-agreed-upon technical term,
and, of course, the modern consequence of legislative and other regulatory restrictions,
(e) tending to take the position that "hypnosis" is whatever an individual designated "hypnotist" does -- rather than recognizing the fact that, in the same way that "a stimulus" can only be such, if it produces a "response", a "hypnotist" can only be such if he/she can successfully perform an act of "hypnotization".
So, in essence, my response is that the "length" issues are caused by the current article's (mistaken) need to deal with five entirely (historically and practically) different aspects all in the one piece:
(i) The discovery and clinical applications of James Braid's (1841) "hypnotism" (induced by an upwards and inwards squint) and, in particular, his use of "suggestion" with those he had hypnotized, à la the "dominant ideas" of Thomas Brown,
(ii) The (c.1890) promotion of Bernheim's "hypnosis" (induced by verbal suggestions of sleep),
(iii) The modern "hypnosis"-centred practices, as derived from Bernheim's "hypnosis",
(iv) The various theoretical positions offered to support these various practices, and
(v) The issue, in each case, of whether a specific application is, simply, doing-some-other-thing that is already-in-use-in-non-"hypnosis"-situations (e.g. the "affect bridge") to a hypnotized subject or is, in fact, using some unique aspect of "hypnosis" as the central therapeutic tool.
Whatever needs to be done will certainly need a lot of work to untangle all of these (unfortunately) conflated issues; and in my view, it seems that the first step to take is to create separate articles. Lindsay658 (talk) 21:16, 18 November 2021 (UTC)
First, the section describe the work of several theologians who have claimed that satanic brainwashing in rock music is real but who's views are heavily disputed by the scientific community. Reputable scientists who have studied the whole claim about rock music/heavy metal music containing satanic imagery/themes being able to brainwash teenagers and considered it bunk. As it was written the section presented views from controversial Theologian Carl Raschke that are as written in a way couldn't make sense of as written (did some poorly quote the guy or is that exactly how he wrote it in the book which would be plagiarism since the quotes are not properly attributed to him. It also presented this guy's views in a way that implied he was a non-controversial recognized expert/reliable source on the subject when he is considered so within scientific community that has studied this issue. Thus if we are going to quote his views on the issue then we must also make it clear his views are very contested by relevant scientists and present their counterargument, at least in summery. While it's true that some rock and heavy metal bands did indeed intentionally include satanic images and such, it's not ever been proven that this leads to any brainwashing of teenagers or others who listened to said music or that any violence committed by certain heavy metal fans can be traced back to the satanic content in certain the heavy metal/rock songs they've listened too (correlation not causation). Also, one should not describe controversial views as "so and so stated...." as the word "stated" should be reserved only for non-controversial statements IMO whereas words like claimed. argued, alleged, etc are better in this sort of context.--Notcharliechaplin (talk) 05:16, 3 March 2022 (UTC)
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