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This is an archive of past discussions about Holy Grail. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 1 |
Many new legends have arisen over the centuries or during the modern revival of interest in the Grail that will describe it as either an emerald that fell from Lucifer's crown when he was thrown out of Heaven; the Philosopher's Stone; the Ark of the Covenant; a book of Jesus' geneology; the silver dish supporting John the Baptist's head; the sword used to cut off John the Baptist's head; the lance belonging to Longinus, the Roman soldier who transfixed Jesus' chest; a secret gospel written by Jesus; the cup used by Mary of Bethany to perfume Jesus' feet; the container of the Shroud of Turin; a round ball of glass filled with water held in a tree-like stand — the Thummim and the Urim; Aladdin's lamp, the Golden Fleece; or the Baphomet. One of the most popular theories claims that the Grail refers to both Mary Magdalene and a royal bloodline stemming from her marriage to Jesus.
This is ignorant tripe invented by adolescents who think "hey, it's mythology" and you can just make up anything. This is an abuse of Wikipedia's tolerance of "alternative" theories. None of these "theories" have ever been connected with the Grail myth in anything more than a comic book. Wetman 20:54, 28 Mar 2004 (UTC)
What? Connected with the OriGraro? Only in the anime "Meri Magareno"!
Other stories will describe the Grail as a large emerald that fell from Lucifer's crown when he was thrown out of Heaven; the Philosophers' Stone; the Ark of Covenant; a book of Jesus' geneology, written by Jesus;2 The chalice used to collect Jesus' blood; the silver dish supporting John the Baptist's head; the sword used to cut off John the Baptist's head; the lance belonging to Longinus, the Roman soldier who transfixed Jesus' chest; or a secret Gospel written by Jesus. According to Graham Phillips, the Grail is the cup used by Mary of Magdala to perfume Jesus' feet. Daniel C. Scavone suggests that the Grail is the Shroud of Turin. Baima Bollone writes that the Grail is the container of the Holy Shroud. Flavia Anderson, in The Ancient Secret claims that the Grail is a round ball of glass filled with water held in a tree-like stand — the Thummim and the Urim. Suggestions that the Grail was Alladin's lamp, the Golden Fleece or the Baphomet have also been made. For further information view: What is a Grail? by Dr. Linda Malcor, The History Net, "An Introduction to Current Theories about The Holy Grail" Chris Thornborrow. One of the oddest, but most popular, theories claims that the word Grail refers to a royal bloodline and that Jesus' descendents, through various secret societies, continue to manipulate global affairs.
Regarding those two sources: the first one is decent, but the second one is problematic. This is a subject which, for hundreds of years, has spawned reams and reams of shoddy scholarship, halfwitted vaporings, and complete nonsense (often all three at once), so it might be best not to rely too heavily on a poorly-referenced list compiled by some random person with no apparent qualifications. (Not that all the stuff on that page is worthless; at least one of those theories is well-known, and some of the others are at least attributed to one source or another; but caution and intellectual rigor are necessary.) —67.71.79.111 17:22, 4 Apr 2004 (UTC)
An anonymous editor has inserted this: Still other stories claim that the Grail was moved variously to either Nova Scotia, or to Accokeek, Maryland by a priest aboard Captain John Smith's ship. Is this comedy, or what? Is the Holy Grail masquerading as a Dixie Cup in Moscow, Idaho then? I hesitate to revert this simply for underestimating popular ullibility... Wetman 00:57, 19 Oct 2004 (UTC)
This article is unsatisfactory because while it mentions R.S. Loomis' work (whom I have been led to believe was the authority on the origin & growth of the Grail myth) in the Bibliography, it makes little use of his research. He provides numerous examples of themes from this story as having appeared in Celtic stories -- the platter that Bran the Blessed serves from in the Mabinogion, the cup in the 11th century Irish Prophetic Ecstasy of the Phantom (Baile in Scail) which forms the center of this story, & the similar Adventures of Art Son of Conn.
And there is no mention of Jessie Weston's work (e.g. From Ritual to Romance), which while refuted by Loomis still has its followers. And I know of no authority who would insist this tale has a Gothic origin.
I have fixed its earliest mention, where it is not a Christian relic, but an arguably magical, or perhaps even pagan, object. -- llywrch 21:00, 9 Jan 2005 (UTC)
The best book I've read on the subject is "The Holy Grail: Imagination and Belief" (by Richard Barber) (). Maybe one of the editors of this article would like to get it out from the library to help with the article? porges 23:05, Apr 11, 2005 (UTC) (There's a short review by the Guardian: )
I changed a few things in the "Fate of the Grail" section, mostly to correct slightly wrong information and to make it more clear. I took out the line about Wolfram's Parzifal being one of the earliest books about the grail, because there were quite a few between Chretien and it. I also reworded the second paragraph to make it sound less like the Grail is a real object waiting to be found. And I said the stories about the grail being in Maryland and Nova Scotia were local folklore. I would assume they are, if they are not then a source should be added as I've never heard this anywhere.
Chretien needs to be discussed much earlier in the article, as it is because of him that the Grail became as popular as it did. I'll add it when I have time if everyone's okay with this.--Cuchullain 17:26, 13 May 2005 (UTC)
Added a section on Chretien.--Cuchullain 19:37, 13 May 2005 (UTC)
Well written. In fact, I think it deserves its own section. Also, there should probably be a bit about the Breton conteurs from whom Chretien (directly or indirectly) drew his material (probably under The Grail and Arthurian Legend or a short section before Chretien's section but within Beginnings of the Grail in Literature). DonQuixote 02:32, 14 May 2005 (UTC)
Actually, because of this new bit, The Grail Canon section should probably be tidied up a bit. DonQuixote 02:38, 14 May 2005 (UTC)
I think the new section Beginnings of the Grail in Literature should come before the Origins of the Grail. It might make it easier to include info on the origin of the legend in context (for example Loomis and Barber's research)--Cuchullain 21:18, May 18, 2005 (UTC)
I removed this link:
If someone really wants to keep it, they should at least change the description so it sounds less like an advertisement.--Cuchullain 22:27, May 22, 2005 (UTC)
Why should the ending of this sentence in the first paragraph
A theme joined to the Christianised Arthurian mythos relates to the quest for the Holy Grail.
link to the computer game Conquests of Camelot? Does it have any relevance in broadening the definition of Holy Grail? I suppose omitting the link at all and reword the sentence. The c. game could be mentioned in the "See also" section, if at all. Anyone share the same opinion? Or is there something in it I'm missing?
Oneliner 23:07, 26 May 2005 (UTC)
You're right, I took it out.--Cuchullain 23:36, May 26, 2005 (UTC)
The following interpretive mix of uncited gospel, secondhand medieval legend, etc, is moved here. Any source for this elaboration? Is there anything else here that is not already more logically discussed in the present article?:
It surprises me that there happened to be a church already waiting in Britain for Joseph seeing as he would have been the first Christian to step foot on British soil.--RandallFlagg 13:04, 6 November 2005 (UTC)
Robert de Boron tied Joseph of Arimathea to the Grail; the Glastonbury connection is conjecture. They were notorious forgers, but there isn't any definite evidence they ever said anything about the Holy Grail. Loomis devotes a chapter to this in The Grail.Wetman, you may be thinking of their material on Joseph as the first Christian bishop at Glastonbury, which doesn't belong here. Also, I'm curious as to what you think my agenda is.--Cuchullain 02:39, 15 November 2005 (UTC)
Blood of Jesus? If he died on the cross he wouldn't bleed. If he was still alive when taken down he would bleed. Isn't it obvious? Austin 31 Jan 2012.----
The main article says There are cups claimed to be the Grail in several churches, for instance the Valencia cathedral. . Name other. Catholic burocrats are very good about contradictions, specially after the criticism of Luther.
The Valencia Vessel is reported as the "Santo Grial" in Spanish. It is documented since 1300 AC in the archives of the Crown of Aragon, and also exists a document circa 1100 which is suppossedly a forgery but it also names the Chalice. According the records it has been stored in Siresa, Jaca, Zaragoza, Barcelona, and finally Valencia. Note the phonetic appeal of the first storage site, the town of Siresa. Note also that the French arturic cycle was composed about the same age, so it is very feasible that the author of the Grail Cycle were inspired by the contemporary existence of this cup.
Of course, no documentation exists about this Grail before the XIIth century. Popular leyend relates it to St Lorenzo, who was native of the nearby city of Huesca. In this legend, and due to the prosecution in Roma, this saint had send some valuable possesions to his own family in the north of spain. Arivero 11:38, 22 May 2006 (UTC)
Is the vessel called the Santo Cáliz a purported Holy Grail? I thought it was a purported Holy Chalice. That is what the Holy Chalice article says, as well as other sources . -Willmcw 22:43, 30 Dec 2004 (UTC)
What are we tryimg to say about the Holy Chalice? That it is often mistaken for the Grail? That they may be the same thing? User:Wetman, I don't understand your edit. Can you explain? Cheers - Willmcw 00:40, 6 Jan 2005 (UTC)
Explained above. Are you the one trying to disentangle the two legends? --Wetman 01:49, 6 Jan 2005 (UTC)
The text begins by defining the thing as a vessel from the last supper, and two paragraphs later, it says it may be identified with the chalice, which is defined (in its own page) as the vessel from the supper. So which one is the blood vessel, and which the wine vessel?Ladypine 15:16, 16 December 2005 (UTC)
Speaking of this, I want to move the "Four medieval relics" section to Holy Chalice, or at least shorten it substantially. It's more about that anyway, and adds a lot of unneccessary length to the article.--Cuchullain 22:01, 28 December 2005 (UTC)
RE: The removal of the Arms of Sir Robert Bell, from the 16th century; Crest depicting the Holy Grail. Dear (Bill) Cuchullain. The image that you have removed is period art, simular in many respects to the other illustrations that portray the Holy Grail, that are incorporated into the article. Perhaps you are an Art History major in college, so I would encourage you to consult the Victoria and Albert museum, London, for the many references that you have requested, and to discover further details concerning stained glass, and further to learn more about the other examples of this period Art Collection, of which from what I understand is currently on display, however with the original panels of glass in brilliant colour. You may also wish to consult the college of arms, London, to enquire details concerning references to the art and science of heraldry. I hope this is of some help. Wales. (Richard)
Again, this matter falls within the context of Art. I note that one of the images that appears in the article could be interpreted metaphorically as a chalice of light, or a Grail, as Pollard observes: "Arthur Rackham - "How at the Castle of Corbin a Maiden Bare in the Sangreal and Foretold the Achievements of Galahad", from The Romance of King Arthur and His Knights of the Round Table, by Alfred W Pollard, 1917.jpg"
The Achievement of this particular heraldic example depicts the Holy Grail, and is from 1577, (16th century). This substantially predates the other images that appear in the article, so perhapas the artist from one period had a different picture in mind. Please consult the references that I have already afforded you above, or you may wish to consult the following sample of links: http://www2.sas.ac.uk/warburg/Mnemosyne/Image/aesthetics.htm http://www.religion-online.org/showarticle.asp?title=514 http://columbia.thefreedictionary.com/Early+Christian+art+and+architecture I hope this has contributed some help. Wales 03:36, 30 May 2006 (UTC)
It seems that there are quite a few alternate interpretations out there. Are there enough to warrant a new article, "Holy Grail: List of alternate interpretations" ?
A few that come to mind are the Gnostic interpretation & related Alchemical/Hermetic interpretation, the Jungian interpretation, or the recently put-forth interpretation by the documentary "The Pharmacratic Inquisition" that it is the Amanita Muscaria mushroom.
24.18.35.120 05:19, 25 June 2006 (UTC)
Removed Dan Brown rocks my world from article.
Chris k 01:02, 28 November 2006 (UTC) This section of the article seems to be headed increasingly off-topic and should probably be assigned to a separate article.
I just noticed the coat of arms for Sir Robert Bell is tagged as "fair use", which means it can be used on the article for the person, but not here. I've never thought it was a clear depiction of the Grail anyway.--Cúchullain t/c 02:31, 4 January 2007 (UTC)
The Cosmic Grail will recur on May 21, 2012! - http://marmarcelcel.de/www.marmarcelcel.de/sangreal_1.html - Mar Cel — Preceding unsigned comment added by 84.159.223.8 (talk) 15:58, 29 January 2006 (UTC)
Mary was with child and by Jesus at his death and his child Sara Christ later to be known as Saint Sara of Egypt grows up in the poor getos of egypt later forced into working as a slave as a teenager to feed her sick mother how will be dead in the morning...later she is taken by the local Church and grows up to be a wise woman and saint in Egypt later she died of what is known as Brest Kancer today and that is where it ends but after her death some said she would return like her father but to bring hell to ruens and bring rebith to the earth after the end of days and she would bring new hope to humanity, some said she will Restore the Lord's Children to Eden and punish the wicked souls to purgatory.
May I suggest something? Given how most of the recent edits has been nothing but nonsense and vandalism and reverts, I suggest that someone requests an admin to protect the article from unregistered and new users for a while. crazyviolinist 02:33, 29 March 2007 (UTC)
Vague accusations aren't helpful. What exactly is nonsense and vandalism?—Preceding unsigned comment added by 172.150.205.93 (talk • contribs)
172.xxx, I'm not trying to be a jerk, but your additions of material on Julius Evola are not sourced. You need to provide cites to the books he makes those claims in (see WP:CITE). I turned your external link to the GNOSIS article into a real citation, but this is only good for the claim that Evola influenced the Priory hoax, not for his broader claims. If you don't provide sources, I'll be removing the material again after a few days.--Cúchullain t/c 21:17, 29 March 2007 (UTC)
Thank you for the seeming goodwill. Whether we like it or not, Evola is important in the history of ideas and his popularity among certain esoteric and conservative circles in the Western world is increasingly rising. I shall provide the exact references shortly.
Isn't that the same thing? I don't see why these articles are separate? --AW 14:37, 18 May 2007 (UTC)
I've removed the Harry Potter reference from "Modern retellings", pending the materialization of a reliable source. --Tony Sidaway 11:49, 1 August 2007 (UTC)
Took out 'The legend may combine Christian lore with a Celtic myth of a cauldron endowed with special powers.'. I have no real issues with this, in fact, I tend to agree, but I do believe this warrants some sort of verification. Cronos2546 00:10, 13 September 2007 (UTC)
So alternative interpretations of the grail like that in Dan Brown's - The Davinci Code are what?
The search for the Grail is merly the search for truth enlightenment. at one time the holy grail was forming social order.now it can be the search for extraterrestrials —Preceding unsigned comment added by 121.209.67.237 (talk) 08:30, 4 January 2008 (UTC)
The actual grail is not the bloodline of Jesus
or a cup - a cup either form last supper or that caught blood from Jesus's death.
The grail is skyering device leading to the revelation of enlightenment and empowerment in those with the proper "seeds".
/s Lord GM, PS. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 75.58.179.179 (talk) 19:15, 16 January 2008 (UTC)
Each time an external link has been provided to The Grail Church (aka Apostolic Church of Jesus Christ) website it has been immediately removed. Why? There exists external links to other websites without these being deleted. The removed link is to a church website, not a "personal website" as claimed by the individual expurgating the link. Why is the Grail as understood by a pure branch of Christianity less acceptable than the extant material found in the Wikipedia article? After all, there is tourist information, Roman Catholic places of worship, and even a contribution from the BBC (all promoting their wares) to be found in the external links.
contribs) 09:15, 9 February 2008 (UTC)
Is it possible that we should put a note at the top of the page refering to Weird Al's reference to this page in his song "White and Nerdy"? It has nothing to do with the article, but it should be put in because of people coming to this page purely for this purpose. 64.39.140.175 (talk) 02:26, 20 February 2008 (UTC)
This article states that the Grail appears in Wagner's opera Parsifal "periodically producing blood": i wonder if you could show me where this occurs in Parsifal since I'm not aware of that appearing in Wagner's libretto. The Grail in Parsifal gives off a kind of ethereal light, but blood? --Dogbertd (talk) 10:58, 23 February 2008 (UTC)
I added a short section on the phrase "holy grail" as it refers to something that many people seek but still eludes discovery and fades into a quasi-mythical status. I looked in the disambiguation pages and found nothing about this phrase but felt that it should be addressed somewhere in the "holy grail family" of pages (articles/disambiguation pages).Dcs315 (talk) 04:05, 5 March 2008 (UTC)
Robert Richardson failed to provide a citation by Plantard to Julius Evola in any of his works.
Indeed, Plantard never referred to Julius Evola.
Evola never referred to the Merovingians.
Evola's ideas of the Grail involved the German Hohenstaufen imperial line. Nothing to do with France.
These are important points that need to be emphasised whenever Richardson's work is raised, as it demonstrates that Richardson's research was questionable.Wfgh66 (talk) 20:52, 8 March 2008 (UTC)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:NOTABLE Wfgh66 (talk) 21:05, 8 March 2008 (UTC)
Plantard did not mention Stein either. Unlikely, since Stein was Jewish and Plantard was anti-semitic. Wfgh66 (talk) 09:48, 11 March 2008 (UTC)
Does Islam acknowledge the Holy Grail? LOTRrules (talk) 13:21, 24 February 2008 (UTC)
Ah...right...thanks for clearing that up. It's just a myth... LOTRrules (talk) 20:53, 16 March 2008 (UTC)
Right I'm not sure if this is the right place to ask but I watched 'The Holy Grail' on Discovery Knowledge which seemed to point to there being the actual or at least very likely candiate for the real Holy Grail in Valencia so I decided to have a quick look on the interent which revealed this link: http://www.valenciavalencia.com/sights-guide/holy-grail-valencia.htm which I know is from the Valencia tourist board so may not be reliable but my question is: What evidence against this being the real Grail is there? --86.151.22.16 (talk) 09:46, 11 July 2008 (UTC)
OK, Cheers and sorry.--86.151.22.16 (talk) 00:00, 12 July 2008 (UTC)
So I think, as a Gnostic myself, it's only fair to include their approach to the subject of the grail. They may not even know this version exists, but it's only because this is a new idea. I wrote this the same way a Gnostic would write a text on the truth, or finding the truth within:
The Book of the Grail Legend on Earth
As written by Matthew, provided by the great first ruler of Mankind. Speak not of these writings to your elders, for they will surely destroy you.
In the world there came a time when the entire world was incarnated by one divine spirit, the incorruptible spirit Meirothea from Atlantis. She had been given a decision for the fate of her vortex which had disintegrated all their livelihoods on that plane of existence. Either she would create the perfect being to save them all or she would truly perish from her realm and never be seen again.
All the worlds she created can be seen in kind with the view of the Architect of Mankind. The first luminary, Harmozel, came from her eternal womb to sanctify the realm of which we live in, to provide it with a kind of eternal balance between good and evil. For it was always to be in this realm that there would be battle between Good and Evil, as is the will of the eternal father, the one whom is called Hertileus of Gremblas. This opposing will of the father versus the eternal mother, from whom Barbelo was conceived, gave birth to the unending light that is and will forever be Mankind in Heaven. Through all the creatures that had been created by her, Mankind was the first to possess the balanced nature of Good and Evil. It gave him light beyond measure in heaven, and the father blessed him with life on Earth so that he might one day become an eternal unified being in spirit, possessing all the attributes that only a huge number of people could possess.
One time or another, there was doubt in the fathers motives. He had sought out perfection from an imperfect realm, and the ones who followed under him began to revolt against his will. They could not comprehend the problem that they themselves wanted to fix because they were not gifted with foreknowledge, and out of desire for perfection they tried to assassinate Adam by tricking him into a world full of eating and fornicating with pleasure, and all that the first ruler had created was for nothing. If Adam could not be free, then all of his creation could not be for the good of Mankind in heaven.
Taking this into account, the Spirit took it upon herself to create Barbelo's image on earth, whom she named Eve. She took the rib from Adam to use his genetic blueprint and created for herself the second form of Man, which she called Woman. Her foreknowledge allowed her to see just what would come from this, in order to draw out the angels who rebelled against the father in heaven. When they came down upon Eve, the Spirit laughed at them, cursing them as fools, and left Eve to be brutalized in their presence. After they had done this, they took Adam and put him into deep sleep. Corrupted by their misdeed on Earth, they were no longer in control of their minds and became mindless, removing the link between Adam's soul and his physical body. This is why Mankind can no longer feel his spirit within himself, and created a hollow feeling in Adam's chest.
He spoke often of this to his son Seth, who was infuriated by the will of those in Heaven who betrayed them in such a manner. For his own justification he made the race of Men called Setians, who were his chosen descendants gifted with the true knowledge of the light in their genetic memories. These people are what became the bloodline from which the annointed one, Jesus, was born from on Earth. From this holy work came what is now called the Grail of earth lore.
When Jesus came to Galilee for the second time in his mission to save the people he could in the land of Judea, he took a small token of his appreciation from the Heavens and brought a man named Joseph to the land of Judea to witness him being crucified. Jesus knew of this event long before he was eventually crucified and took "Prepare the food for your followers" with him to his death. The book of which is written here is a text in which the Heavenly father communicates to Jesus, telling him of all that has been, and all that will be in the future. Knowing this, Jesus prepared everything to the heavenly father's specifications, in order to keep the purpose of Mankind intact. When he came to Judea for the third time, he brought Adam back to life for three days, saying to him "Implore of me what you will, brother, for we are truly blessed by the heavenly father,". When Adam heard of this, he said to Jesus "No man alive can truly compare to us, but we know our true purpose as well as we did three years before they were designed. Let it show that we have been here, standing together on Earth as it was written in your father's book."
When Jesus left Adam soon after passing for the second time, he remained in Judea for the following years before he was crucified under Pontius Pilate. The order was given for him to be brutally beaten for his crime, but when the Jews called to Pilate "We will report you to Caesar as a traitor!" he had no choice but to put Jesus on his cross, and send him to Golgotha to be crucified. This all came from the will of the Father as given to Jesus during his time on Earth.
Joseph, who was a carpenter alongside Jesus during his older days in Galilee, took himself to the top of Golgotha to bear witness to Jesus being crucified, as was his request. Jesus looked at Joseph as he rested on his cross, and with his mind implored Joseph to come before the Cross in secret, as to avoid the detection of the Roman guards before him. The devil had taken their minds into the realm of mindlessness, and they gambled and drunk wine until the sun set. Joseph took one of their cups from them, and placed it under Jesus's feet. The blood that dripped from his wounds dripped into the cup, and the Grail of legend was created from a Roman's cup and Jesus's divine blood inheritance.
When Jesus had passed his soul into the hands of his father, he took with him the divine right to become guardian of his kingdom, and remained over Earth until the end of time itself. He lay in wait of the one who would come from Josephs bloodline, because like himself Joseph was a blood descendant of Seth the eternal, and one of the chosen that would bring salvation for all mankind in pure transferrance.
Taking the grail to his home, he awaited Jesus to return to him as he had been told. When he finally came to Joseph while in prayer for his return, he told Joseph "Dearly beloved one, I implore you to drink from the cup which I told you to bring here with you. Taking from myself what I have given you will transform you into the next in my bloodline, for what came from me will eventually become you,". When Joseph took drink from the cup, he sat down and said to himself "I know my fate now. Yours has been sealed in this cup, and now it is time for it to be destroyed completely,". He created a fire outside his home and threw the cup into it, burning away the material cup and setting free the spirit of Christ which had been passed into that cup by his blood.
Amen.
I trust this to be true. I know there's alot of phrases that might confuse some people, but I will add footnotes to it if you like. I feel it's straightforward, but it may be necessary to think of different ways to read the same sentence to get the proper meaning ;) This is not from any book, it IS original research but I seriously think in this case that rule should be ignored for the simple fact that anyone can get the same story, in the same manner. Heck, just ask me how to try it for yourself :)
74.14.89.187 (talk) 07:10, 14 October 2008 (UTC)
Okay, one, it's too long. Two, it may be considered to be heresy by many, as it deviates so greatly from the mainstream gospels, and spark "a conflict" or whatever they're concenrd about. Three, no exceptions to the Original Research rule. Ever. period.Bioform 1234 (talk) 17:46, 18 November 2008 (UTC)
I do not know how many of you speak greek, but the correct term is Theology, not mythology Iamanadam (talk) 03:42, 17 December 2008 (UTC)
> According to Christian mythology, the Holy Grail was the dish, plate, or cup used by Jesus at the Last Supper, said to possess miraculous powers. <
No, this is wrong. The anglo-saxon Holy Grail legend collection is about an alleged cup, plate or vase used to collect Christ's dripping blood under the Cross and then this alleged object, which supposedly posessed various supernatural powers, ended up in early medieval England, then disappeared or was taken to a secret hiding place.
On the other hand the wine-drinking cup used at the Last Supper was never in England, it went from the Holy Land to Rome and then Spain directly and it was never said to have gained "magical" abilities. The smallish last supper's cup is made of stone and is still preserved and on display in Spain (recently both Pope John Paul II and Pope Benedict XVI used it to celebrate the Mass).
Sorrowfully Wikipedia has again fallen victim to conspiracy theorists once again and the article spreads confusion to the readers, boosting Dan Brown and similar hype book sales, which is not "the purpose of an encyclopaedia. 91.83.19.148 (talk) 18:23, 4 May 2008 (UTC)
Christian mythology includes all the stories associated with Christianity...most importantly the stories in the Bible. Were Santa Claus and the Easter Bunny there with the three wise men at Jesus' birth? Did they mourn when he was crucified? Are thier stories used by Christian priests in an allegorical manner to describe of Christian belief? No, they are not a part of Christian mythology!! 70.112.71.2 (talk) 21:13, 23 December 2008 (UTC)
Look, excuse me and sorry, but this page will not do. It's hopelessly biased towards those sources used by Malory and Tennyson. There's no account of Chretien's original and non-holy grail. Wolfram is demoted to an also ran. There's no account of the relationship of Peredur to Chretien. I am sorry if that's not what people want to hear, or something, but this is not an acceptable account of the grail story. Redheylin (talk) 00:24, 3 June 2008 (UTC)
The quest for the Holy Grail makes up an important segment of the Arthurian cycle, appearing first in works by Chrétien de Troyes.[1]
- There IS no "quest for the grail" in the original story of Chretien. There's a search for the castle where it was seen, a search for its meaning - NOT a search for the grail and the grail is not "holy". Redheylin (talk) 00:39, 3 June 2008 (UTC)
Yes, I think that's the way to go. And by the way, thanks for being scholars and gentlemen.Redheylin (talk) 19:45, 5 June 2008 (UTC)
The development of the Grail legend has been traced in detail by cultural historians: It is a legend which first came together in the form of written romances, deriving perhaps from some pre-Christian folklore hints, in the later 12th and early 13th centuries. The early Grail romances centered on Percival and were woven into the more general Arthurian fabric.
Some of the Grail legend is interwoven with legends of the Holy Chalice.
Right, now the last sentence is a tautology so;
In the versions of the mediaeval Arthurian romances that are best known in the English-speaking world, the Holy Grail is a relic of the Crucifixion of Jesus, variously the Holy Chalice or else a cup used to catch Jesus' blood. The romances relate how King Arthur's knights sought this miraculous object and how the perfect knight Galahad succeeded. Robert de Boron's Joseph d'Arimathie (c 1200CE), drawing upon the apocryphal Gospel of Nicodemus, related that Joseph had received the Grail from an apparition of Jesus and sent it with his followers to Great Britain, where it fell into the hands of the Fisher King, Bron.
However, when the Grail first appeared, around 1180, in an unfinished poem by Chrétien de Troyes[1] the grail was simply "a" grail, a golden serving-dish, nor was it holy, though it emitted a light. The early Grail romances centered on Percival and were woven into the more general Arthurian fabric. But the popularity and mystery of this unfinished tale produced many retellings and continuations in various languages. In Wolfram von Eschenbach's Parzival the grail became a stone from heaven. In Peredur, a Welsh version of Chretien's tale, it was a platter bearing a human head. And in the more orthodox Christian versions immortalised by Malory and Tennyson it was, as mentioned, presented as a holy relic. Redheylin (talk) 20:10, 5 June 2008 (UTC)
this article fails to mention the da vinci code under the modern literature section. the da vinci code is clearly about the holy grail.
219.94.166.8 (talk) 04:40, 16 April 2009 (UTC) amigojapan
I don't understand why Dan Brown's novel "The Da Vinci Code" is listed under the Non-fiction section of the article. By common usage, a "novel" is a work with fictional content (as noted in the linked WP article.) Looks like a big "whoops" to me. -- 192.115.133.116 (talk) 23:02, 16 April 2009 (UTC) (corrected 23:05, 16 April 2009 (UTC))
There are a number of problems with the way the theories of Jung and Franz are presented here. First, they were not historians or medievalists, like the other scholars listed here such as Roger Sherman Loomis, Richard Barber, and Joseph Goering. Rather, they were Jungian psychologists. Their theories about the Grail have not gotten a wide acceptance in modern scholarship; I would regard them as fringe, and therefore they recieve a huge amount of undue weight by being represented here in this manner. On top of being entirely overrepresented, the citations, where any are given, are not to peer reviewed reliable sources. They are to their own book, or to some website. As such the inclusion of their material fails both WP:NPOV and WP:V. I think a brief summation of their interpretations might have a place in the sections on modern treatments - if a secondary source can be found indicating that they is important.--Cúchullain t/c 12:32, 21 July 2009 (UTC)
Julius Evola is no fringe figure. Routledge just published a 200 page book on him and he is increasingly being studied academically.
Not including Julius Evola at least marginally and his role in the modern Grail-mythos is simply academic irresponsibility or idiocy and should be corrected soon. Wikipedia only makes itself look stupid by these types of things. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 75.52.186.148 (talk) 09:01, 30 July 2011 (UTC)
You don't get it. Whether they are "fringe" or not, they indirectly, to say the least, played a significant part in the modern Grail fascination and "mythos". That is all that matters from an encyclopedic standpoint.
So is Routledge fringe in your mind? Just wondering...
And yes, I have bought the 130$ book from Routledge on Evola and you are right, the Grail is not extensively discussed. On the other, tons of other respectable scholars and academics have discussed this topic (Richard Smoley, Joscelyn Godwin, etc. Are they considered "fringe"? I am honestly asking. I don't get Wikipedia's concept of "fringe."
Okay, so far as I can tell, Evola has full legitimacy to be included in the article based on the fringe reference you gave me. In history, what matters is not if every individual was perfectly rational but whether they were historically influential or not, and at least in this area especially, there is loads of academic essays on Evola, the Grail and how it interweaves with the modern understanding. I can find and pull them up later.
All I'm trying to say is, like, an encyclopedia inevitably will mention how in premodern times doctors would (erroneously!) "bleed" patients, but it obviously is wrong and fringe and totally irrational, but it existed, it was part of history, and was part of the development of medicine. Do you know what I mean?
I think Evola is an immoral sadistic freak myself but that doesn't mean his real influence should be discounted for whatever reason (?). — Preceding unsigned comment added by 75.52.186.148 (talk) 23:00, 30 July 2011 (UTC)
The date of Grail sequences in the Welsh folktales, the Mabinogion are older than the surviving manuscripts (13th century).
I'm pretty familiar with the Mabinogion and I can't remember a single reference to the Grail in the Three Romances or in "Culwch ac Olwen." Certainly, characters typically associated with the Grail appear in several tales, but that's rather stretching the connection. I also imagine that the Cauldron of Rebirth that Bendigeidfran gives to Matholwch in "Branwen Ferch LLŷr" is related to the Grail legend, but I would consider this more a matter of two tales drawing on the same tradition than the Grail actually making an appearance in "Branwen." Am I missing something major, or are there in fact no Grail sequences in the Mabinogion? I wanted to be sure before editing the page.
--Paulbee 04:22, 10 Jul 2004 (UTC)
I don't know if I should take this over to the "Holy Chalice" article, but I'll try asking it here first just to get some feedback. Is it possible that we could merge this page with the "Holy Chalice" article? Perhaps the contents of this article could be abridged and included under a new section "Legends Associated with the Holy Chalice"? If I were to request this over at the Holy Chalice talk page, would anybody here be fine with a merging? PhiChiPsiOmega (talk) 19:09, 26 July 2014 (UTC)
The comment(s) below were originally left at Talk:Holy Grail/Comments, and are posted here for posterity. Following several discussions in past years, these subpages are now deprecated. The comments may be irrelevant or outdated; if so, please feel free to remove this section.
Holy Grail means 'two volkanos'. Nothing more. |
Last edited at 17:44, 20 April 2008 (UTC). Substituted at 18:11, 29 April 2016 (UTC)
Above, it was said "They are not the same. Holy Chalice is an article on historical artifacts claimed to be the chalice used by Christ at the Last Supper; Holy Grail describes an item from literature that often, but not always, identified with the Holy Chalice".
Afaics, the "Holy Grail" is the term for the Holy Chalice as portrayed in medieval romance. Of course this can be treated as a separate topic, but then we need to get rid of the section about artifacts. The Holy Chalice article claims that
Almost every single statement in this is false or misleading. This would all work so much better if both articles were written based on secondary literature instead of by random editorialising.
I do suppose it makes sense to treat the "Holy Grail" as a literary topos in the romance genre separate from the more general "Holy Chalice" page. But it shouldn't be implied that the two articles are somehow about "separate" topics. --dab (𒁳) 13:01, 18 September 2016 (UTC)
@Cagwinn: You need to discuss your edit on the talk page, with reliable sources backing your claims, otherwise it's original research on your part. Also, if you read the rest of this article, Troyes didn't write in a vacuum and scholars have been researching his influences, which includes what you're trying to remove. DonQuixote (talk) 00:05, 6 July 2017 (UTC)
Scholars have long speculated on the origins of the Holy Grail before Chrétien, suggesting that it may contain elements of the trope of magical cauldrons from Celtic mythology combined with Christian legend surrounding the Eucharist[5], the latter found in Eastern Christian sources, conceivably in that of the Byzantine Mass, or even Persian sources.-- so, yeah, it's nothing like what you're stating. At the moment, you're the one who's fringe because you're not citing any reliable source supporting your claim. DonQuixote (talk) 12:53, 6 July 2017 (UTC)
:Cagwinn: Stop being so rude, there is really no call for it. On the content, you are correct. The source is not reliable for the topic at hand. The authors were Jungian psycho-analysts, not historians. The specific material is also spurious on its face: there's no reason to think that a fictional object first described in the 12th century would have "arrived in Britain" at the time of the introduction of Christianity there, or to connect this with the Normans.--Cúchullain t/c 17:20, 6 July 2017 (UTC)
I was looking through the Notes and Queries for 1851 recently and there was an article on the Holy Grail in which it was stated that its alternate name Sang Real which referred to the Holy Blood being collected from when Jesus was on the Cross. Would 'the full reference' be appropriate for this article - or which other? Jackiespeel (talk) 10:46, 5 August 2017 (UTC)
I must say I'm disappointed - almost this entire article is deep down individual sources. There is no overall discussion of what the Holy Grail and the quest for it means, what it signifies. Almost like a technical article, where we could add the "too technical" template, this article busies itself only with the minutae of each individual source. While I realize this might be the result of various edit wars, we can do better than this. As a general encyclopedia article, this article currently doesn't reach a good enough quality.
For but a single example of what I mean, let's look at what Catholic Culture writes:
https://www.catholicculture.org/culture/library/view.cfm?recnum=982
I'm not saying this is right or wrong, or should have precedence over some other interpretation. Don't get stuck on this specific example, please! My point is instead that what this does, that the article does not, is looking to the overall picture. What does the Holy Grail and the quest for it mean; what does it signify in the general sense? From a cultural POV? How is this concept used linguistically? Mythically? And so on. In this case, the text explains that the quest for the Holy Grail is a metaphor for wanting something unattainable.
I suggest we add a general section to the article where we find sources that discuss the various historical sources: so our article can summarize and contrast these various works. I am sure such scholarly work must be quite abundant. Then we can rewrite our lede to use that info to provide a much more holistic overview.
CapnZapp (talk) 11:09, 2 December 2017 (UTC)
I think the time has come to set up automated archiving of this talk page, and per policy I hereby inform y'all I will set it up in due time unless someone objects. Regards, CapnZapp (talk) 23:44, 2 December 2017 (UTC)
Otto Rahn and Wewelsburg in particular. SNAAAAKE!! (talk) 17:43, 23 July 2018 (UTC)
There is a move discussion in progress on Talk:Holy Chalice which affects this page. Please participate on that page and not in this talk page section. Thank you. —RMCD bot 12:59, 3 August 2018 (UTC)
I just removed mentions from works where the grail isn't the main focus of the work (ie, one episode, etc.) or works that aren't widely known. These can be mentioned in their respective articles. DonQuixote (talk) 19:25, 13 March 2019 (UTC)
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