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I consider the econd link not to be neutal to the subject. Just have a look at the cover of the book Aikhenbaum et al. published and you see the propagandistic aim of this book. Just the fact thst the Zubr is called a "POLISH species" says much about the neutrality of this link! How can an animal species, once widepread throughout Europe be polish? Anyway, read what the dutch say about Heck Cattle and it's role for the environment, and you will learn more about Heck Cattle than in the second link. Thre is much literature about Heck Cattle in other languages, but because americans don't botther to learn foreign languages all this information will be out of reach for you. You may mock about the Eurpoean enviromentalism and go on to destroy our own last untouched areas. One day, I hope, you will learn. 145.254.191.26 19:45, 29 Nov 2003 (UTC)
This article could need some POV work.
1) This page seems to be very critical towards categorising the Heck cattle as "Aurochs". Fact is, cattle are one and the same species as Aurochs, so why is calling Heck cattle "aurochs" so bad and wrong? There is a similar project trying to recreate the Quagga. Their logic is that if you breed specimens of related subspecies that look like the quagga, you'll arrive at a quagga. Please, if the categorization is so erroneous give genetic evidence why the Heck cattle can't be called aurochs.
2)The article also seems to consider the Nazi background as VERY important. I doubt that many Heck cattle, and many of its breeders are active in the national socialist party. Wiglaf
Still, as a species it is hardly extinct, as cattle is widely regarded as deriving from the Aurochs. As a wild form, it is. Categorization is not an entirely objective process, and so I suggest the article be careful about considering the Auroch "extinct" as a species. You're right about the nazi piece. Wiglaf
Really? It is the first time, I meet this controversy, but I am not a biologist. Technically, we could consider cattle domesticated Aurochs, like swine is domesticated wild boars, right? Wiglaf
You seem to believe in the possibility of creating new species in a few thousand years! You probably consider the dog to be a separate species from the wolf, the swine from the wild boar, the horse from the tarpan, etc. The neutrality of this page is contestable. By the way you can't compare with dinosaurs and birds unless you have very warped idea of time spans. There is NO distiction between species that fit this one. Sorry, but you're wrong.Wiglaf
cattle and zebu "diverged some hundreds of thousands of years ago" based on genetic analysis. Rmhermen 00:26, May 11, 2004 (UTC)
Have there not been an other more scientific attempt to “breed back” wild cattle? I have heard of a project that used “Spanish fighting bulls and Corsican mountain cows”. (This is my own translation from Swedish. The breeds might not be called so in English.) The result bore a physical resemblance to the Aurochs depicted in prehistoric art. It might also be able to survive in the wild. Something Heck cattle can’t according to Swedish historian Peter Englund.
2007-03-28 Lena Synnerholm, Märsta, Sweden.
Sorry, I expressed myself quite woolly. When I wrote “able to survive in the wild” I meant surviving without human intervention, such as fences, feeding and so on. An historian is not automatically qualified on this subject. Peter Englund wrote like this in Swedish:
”Försök bedrevs även med att återskapa utrotade djurarter, framför allt då den halvt mytiska uroxen: nazistiska vetenskapare korsade under stort besvär fram en besynnerlig pastisch på detta kreatur - bland annat med hjälp av amerikansk buffel - som sedan släpptes löst, men inte ett enda av dessa genetiska förträffligheter överlevde mötet med det fria.”
My own translation to English:
“Attempts where also carried on to recreate exterminated species, above all the half mythical aurochs: Nazi scientists interbreed with great difficulties a strange pastiche of this cattle – amongst other things by means of American buffalo – which was then let free, but not a single one of these genetic excellences survived the encounter with the wildlife.”
I assumed that he meant Heck cattle but he may have misunderstood it all. After all, he is just a social scientist who has written a essay on the Nazi view of animals.
2008-05-26 Lena Synnerholm, Märsta, Sweden.
I find the section of the article quite misleading. As an uninformed reader you may get the impression that this "somehow" was "a Nazi project". There is just one reference given, but that does not even mention, let alone deal with the breeding project. It is an article from the Berlin Zoological Garden yearbook of 2002 (in German, of course); written by a historian, it deals with political pressure to make the (very popular) zoo a "Jew-free area" (concerning questions of administration, shareholders' circle and admittance of visitors) after the NS regime came to power, and how the administration and board reacted to it. It shows that there was hesitation first, and then compliance with such demands, and after the war a complete lack of interest in dealing with that shameful chapter. - So far, no surprise. I know the zoo very well (I kept an annual ticket as a teenager), and I know the institute where the author works ("Institute for Research in Antisemitism", faculty of Humanities, Technical University, Berlin - a unique institution in this - state-run - large University in the German capital city) (because I spent the first two University terms of my life at that faculty). - So the zoo management gave in to political pressure by the Nazis. That is ugly, but seems almost inevitable in such circumstances: in any dictatorship you cannot be (openly) "anti-government" and keep your job. So you could become an opponent, personally, but then you would soon be replaced by someone else, who is not. It makes a difference from the point of view of personal ethics and morale, certainly, yes, but not from the point of view of institutional management (it is going to be streamlined very soon, anyway). The director was Lutz Heck. Apparently he was too willing to give in to pressure. That would paint him in a bad light as a human, if confirmed.
My understanding is that the two brothers worked together in this project, from the beginning, intellectually ( I do not know about finances and staff etc). All sources I read so far state that it was started in the early 1920es; that means in the midst of the troubled Weimar Republic aera. That means about a full decade before the Nazi regime was invited to power by an ill-guided ageing president. They were driven, I understand, by ideas of conservation biology, and probably nostalgia for "things ancient", and "things wild and untamed" or so. These are sentiments that were prominent in Germany since the Romantic age; and are still prominent in many circles both in Germany and other countries.
The Nazi goverment and their skillful propaganda wing usurped about everything and every element of German culture that would fit into their fantasies and plans, from classical music and German literature and archaeology to folk songs to adolescent hiking groups to nature conservation. I do not see why that would mean that those things "were" or "became" "inherently" "Nazi-affin" in any way. As far as I know, Hermann Goering was also an active supporter of the Wisent conservation project. Would that give the project itself (begun much earlier, and continued internationally until today) a "bad odour" ?
Probably the Heck brothers, as most other scientists and administrators in Germany in that time, were very naiv, or conservative, or perhaps even optimistically looking forward to the new rulers. They would probably become party members also - I guess everyone in a dictatorship who holds any sort of high office had to ( I know for certain that ordinary high school teachers in Nazi time Germany became highly suspicious when they did not; directors would certainly have benn forced, or removed from office; let alone anyone "more important" than a school head). They might have been even supporters in the core of their hearts, that could be so. But who knows that- any of you, without evidence ? There were all sorts of attitudes in those years.
Since this, the Nazi dictatorship, is a very ugly chapter, I request everyone, from whatever country, to be careful when making any statements. For this article that means, make a statement only when you are certain about it, and have good and clear evidence, that actually backs up your statement(s), and name that evidence, and be very careful with your wording, so that every reader will understand - without having to ask back again - what precisely you want to state and express with your words and what not.147.142.186.54 (talk) 16:14, 16 February 2008 (UTC)
for your consideration: http://www.independent.co.uk/environment/nature/hitler-has-only-got-one-bull-and-its-alive-and-well-in-the-west-country-1672104.html —Preceding unsigned comment added by 96.50.35.95 (talk) 18:43, 22 April 2009 (UTC)
I think this article needs work. Citations are missing, and some of the citations in the article seem like they aren't up to the standards of verifiabilty. Linking to newspaper articles on History or Science that don't show their sources is generally unreliable. It creates a brick wall in the research chain.
The 1920 start date for the Hellabrun breeding program of the Heck Cattle for instance, would seem to require a citation, as the start dates for breeding programs or other scientific endeavors are important for establishing priority in academic or intellectual property concerns.
The second citation for instance, "Heute haben Sie wieder eine Carla im Zoo" Der Berliner Zoologische Garten und seine jüdischen Aktionäre, Monika Schmidt, Bongo, 9.4.2002is a broken link. And if you hunt around and dig up the article somewhere else (http://www.wernercohn.com/Resources/Bongo.pdf) it doesn't mention the Heck cattle specifically. It refers (as already pointed out) to pressure on the Zoo administration to accept Government directives in a context of the aryanisation of the Zoo's board of directors. The citation should support the following, "Lutz Heck, director of the Berlin Zoological Gardens, began extensive breeding programs supported by the Nazis during World War II to bring back the aurochs." That isn't to be found, either directly or indirectly in the article cited. It appears simply not verifiable using the citation.
Citation No.3, Fox News: 'Nazi Cows' Roam English Countryside is a highly edited abstract version of this article's first citation from The Times' A shaggy cow story: how a Nazi experiment brought extinct aurochs to DevonWhy would we cite two articles with exactly the same (one of them admittedly having rather abbreviated) content? This creates the rather misleading impression of verifiability by having "mulitple" sources. And since the sources themselves don't cite, we would seem to hit that unverifiable brick wall again.
Robbie.johnson (talk) 08:33, 24 April 2009 (UTC)
Is this really the most suited infobox? Regards, --Klemen Kocjancic (talk) 07:25, 2 March 2013 (UTC)
NOTHING about the Nazis? Is this a joke or just censorship? Bataaf van Oranje (talk) 22:35, 11 March 2016 (UTC)
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Thanks for reverting my recent edits, that's very kind of you guys. The problem with the reference is that it is not a peer-reviewed printed paper that was officially published by Science, it was merely an e-letter as Science refused to publish it for good reason. It is full of unobjective, resentful critique and has the dubious message that it would be "unpredictable" if a ecologically native species is reintroduced in its habitat. Cattle are used in many conservation grazing projects where it has been shown that their grazing helps to maintain open and semi-open land biodiversity. Thus, adding that exclusively online published e-letter with its unobjective and not fact-based message is not an improvement of the article. I understand that the authors have a certain degree of resentfulness, but Wikipedia is not a platform for the resentiments of single individuals but is meant to be an objective encyclopedia. DFoidl (talk) 16:54, 3 March 2023 (UTC)
What they write is still wrongis insufficient to warrant the removal of the content. You must make specific arguments addressing the contents of the letter, the material referenced to the letter, and the individuals responsible for the letter using reliable sources. Otherwise, the content will eventually be reintegrated into the article. Additionally, you deleted another, different passage that I restored, apparently unaware of what you were deleting. If you believe that content should be excluded, please use reliable sources and Wikipedia policy to justify that position. ~ Pbritti (talk) 18:26, 3 March 2023 (UTC)
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