The article's lead mentions the importance of guitar solos to heavy metal. The article, though, does not mention guitar solos (apart from mentioning bass guitar solos) in the Characteristics section. I added a sentence about guitar solos in metal, sourced to Robert Walser, a writer who is cited a number of times in this article. However, the sentence was reverted. So I am raising the issue here. Is it appropriate for the article to mention guitar solos as one of the Characteristics? ThanksOnBeyondZebrax • TALK 20:43, 27 August 2015 (UTC)
- No because not all types of metal music use them, with some of the most popular bands in the genre like Linkin Park and Limp Bikzit eschewing them completely.Syxxpackid420 (talk) 22:52, 27 August 2015
- Those are good points about Linkin Park and Limp Bizkit. The fact that some bands and subgenres do not use solos could be noted. Nevertheless, when writing an encyclopedia, we must make generalizations. Encyclopedias and university textbooks have many generalizations in them. For example, encyclopedia articles about symphonies from the 1700s will make a generalization like "symphonies usually had two trumpets." The fact that you can point out symphonies with more trumpets or symphonies with no trumpets does not make the generalization untrue or unhelpful. Generalizations are a good way to get across a general trend or tendency to the reader. Returning to the issue of guitar solos, a selection of sources state that guitar solos are an important part of heavy metal:
- "Virtually every heavy metal song features at least one guitar solo" (Robert Walser, Running With the Devil:Power, Gender and Madness in Heavy Metal Music. p. 50)
- "Guitar solos are an essential element of the heavy metal code...that underscores the significance of the guitar."(Deena Weinstein, Heavy Metal:The Music and its Culture." p. 24)
- "The heavy metal virtuosos demonstrated their calling in the guitar solo, which became an obligatory part of the music and a fixture in nearly every song." (A.J. Millard, The Electric Guitar: A History of an American Icon. p. 168)
- "The guitar as lead instrument is one of the cornerstones of heavy metal." (Essi Berelian, The Rough Guide to Heavy Metal.")
- "In most heavy metal songs there is an extended, virtuostic guitar solo..." (Stephen Valdez. A History of Rock Music.)
These sources could be summarized (summarizing multiple sources is permitted in WP) as "Guitar solos are an important part of many heavy metal songs."OnBeyondZebrax • TALK 04:02, 28 August 2015 (UTC)
- You are so far off what that section is about. I don't even have the energy to begin to explain. If others get involved I could add points. Seriously don't understand what you don't understand when reading that section. The other section you added a Source it says "others" and then mentions Parents Music Resource Center which is Clearly not Others. CombatMarshmallow (talk) 04:33, 28 August 2015 (UTC)
- Also if You read the article or even skim through, soloing and its Importance is Stressed in Various ways, throughout a Bulk of the article. Its inclusion is already there in a much more, dramatically professional manor, than anything your incessantly tried to add in the last few days. Its Already there, in Various Ways, in many different usages and explanations. You may want to read the Article, again or for the first time. If you don't understand I would get someone to explain it to you. CombatMarshmallow (talk) 04:51, 28 August 2015 (UTC)
- Yes, I think we can comfortably say that guitar solos are part of the heavy metal genre, per the reliable sources listed here. Also, Kay Dickinson writes, "Heavy metal emphasizes the guitar solo as much as any subgenre of rock; nearly every heavy metal song features at least one such solo, and few other instruments are allowed solos. The guitar solo is a primary means through which the heavy metal performer expresses virtuosity; it is a forum for the display not only of musical skill and technical wizardry, but of a more diffuse masculine quality... Thus Eddie Van Halen's extended guitar solo on Van Halen is called 'Eruption,' a metaphor for male ejaculation." Also, Robin Sylvan says that the power chord is the first "signature feature" of heavy metal while the guitar solo is the second. Michelle Phillipov quotes Walser, Millard and others to say that "in heavy metal, the guitar solo functions as the genre's privileged moment of virtuosity", which is in contrast to death metal where the guitar solo, if present, is chaotic and brief. Binksternet (talk) 05:34, 28 August 2015 (UTC)
No Actually we can't state anything, its already been stated Numerous times. Have you read the article, its all throughout the article. Are you both reading the article. Eddies solo is Already mentioned. Which is pretty proof Positive you haven't read it. Otherwise you wouldn't have even mentioned it. CombatMarshmallow (talk) 05:43, 28 August 2015 (UTC)
WOW. Eddies solo is called eruption? It states so in the article already. "Eddie Van Halen established himself as one of the leading metal guitarists of the era—his solo on "Eruption", from the band's self-titled 1978 album, is considered a milestone" in each time period it talks about soloing. In tune with the changing times and techniques. I guess you'd both know that if you read the article. Right. Thats one example. Do you both realize how many times soloing is represented better than what either of you are Pushing for. probably not. So "solos" are "important". Like Important enough that their Importance is Displayed throughout much of the article. Its totally awesome we are having discussion about adding material thats already there. Its awesome when people are well versed and familiar before they start tampering. Also the title "eruption" is Ambiguous. CombatMarshmallow (talk) 05:47, 28 August 2015 (UTC)
- You are clearly very concerned about something, but your argument is vague. I cannot for the life of me figure out what kind of problem you would have with an addition such as this, one that puts a little more emphasis on the solo. From the sources we have been discussing here, that addition is not really enough. There is nothing in the article that gives proper emphasis to the solo. The power chord is rightfully discussed in a subsection, but the solo isn't, and I think it should be. Binksternet (talk) 06:28, 28 August 2015 (UTC)
- I agree here. It's pretty iconic to at least the first two decades of metal. Vortiene (talk) 06:30, 28 August 2015 (UTC)
Vague. Like saying theres mention all over the article all about Solos. Then again you also stated Metalcore origin was "melodic death metal". Yeah. OK. Vague. Well in this article it isn't vague at all.CombatMarshmallow (talk) 06:52, 28 August 2015 (UTC)
- There is no organized discussion of guitar solos, as there is for power chords. That's what I'm saying. Binksternet (talk) 06:55, 28 August 2015 (UTC)
Right like in a skim this material was found in a about 1 1/2 minutes.metal's "most influential musicians have been guitar players who have also studied classical music. Their appropriation and adaptation of classical models sparked the development of a new kind of guitar virtuosity [and] changes in the harmonic and melodic language of heavy metal. "the "1980s brought on ...the widespread adaptation of chord progressions and virtuosic practices from 18th-century European models, especially Bach and Antonio Vivaldi, by influential guitarists such as Ritchie Blackmore, Marty Friedman, Jason Becker, Uli Jon Roth, Eddie Van Halen, Randy Rhoads and Yngwie Malmsteen".[32] Kurt Bachmann of Believer has stated that "If done correctly, metal and classical fit quite well together. Classical and metal are probably the two genres that have the most in common when it comes to feel, texture, creativity."[33"] "album filled with heavy blues rock guitar" "Eddie Van Halen established himself as one of the leading metal guitarists of the era—his solo on "Eruption", from the band's self-titled 1978 album, is considered a milestone" "New Jersey's Symphony X, whose guitarist Michael Romeo is among the most recognized of latter-day shredders." you're right. this article places no Emphasis on the Importance of solos. Actually it does, its spread out in different sections which provide a clear context, relative to the sections. This is a featured article and it will need many editors to be involved. Also someone who can actually write well enough for a featured article which "onbeyondZebrax" clearly can not by the mess displayed so far. Also has been pushing POV for days now.CombatMarshmallow (talk) 07:05, 28 August 2015 (UTC)
- There's nothing "clear" about guitar solos being spread around the article without having their own paragraph. If you don't have a constructive solution then step aside and allow others to contribute. Binksternet (talk) 16:21, 28 August 2015 (UTC)
"you" don't think its clear. If I "don't have a constructive solution". Of course I have a constructive solution. Know what you're talking about and don't push POV, don't type falsehood statements such as “Yes, I think we can comfortably say that guitar solos are part of the heavy metal genre, per the reliable sources listed here.”, “There is nothing in the article that gives proper emphasis to the solo. The power chord is rightfully discussed in a subsection, but the solo isn’t”, “There is no organized discussion of guitar solos, as there is for power chords.”, “There's nothing "clear" about guitar solos being spread around the article without having their own paragraph”. Thats interesting, its already there where it should be. Also "melodic death metal" is Not an Origin of Metalcore.CombatMarshmallow (talk) 17:19, 28 August 2015 (UTC)
- Your comment above calling the statement "guitar solos are a part of the heavy metal genre" a "falsehood statement" is strange, given that another editor and I have just provided a list of WP:RS Reliable Sources stating that the guitar solo is a key part of heavy metal. My understanding of Wikipedia is that it should present what the most reliable sources say about the topic. WP:NPOV states that "achieving what the Wikipedia community understands as neutrality means carefully and critically analyzing a variety of reliable sources and then attempting to convey to the reader the information contained in them fairly, proportionately, and as far as possible without bias." The other editor and I have provided a variety of reliable sources supporting the point that "the guitar solo plays an important role in heavy metal." If you have reliable sources that present a differing point, such as articles stating that "in heavy metal, the guitar solo has the same role and prominence as it has in rock and blues", then please provide these sources, because "...the neutral point of view does not mean exclusion of certain points of view, but including all verifiable points of view which have sufficient due weight." If you are against the Reliably Sourced statement that the guitar solo is an important part of heavy metal, please provide Reliable Sources which support a differing point.OnBeyondZebrax • TALK 18:39, 28 August 2015 (UTC)
- In context an editor coming to a talk page and stating something that is already there, "needs to be" is falsehood. This is what you usually do. Find a page and push your POV. Only this article is featured. Different rules apply. Look for "on beyondZrax" there will be about 250 edits. Many POV. https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Hardcore_punk&offset=20140630160224&limit=500&action=history and https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Hardcore_punk&offset=&limit=500&action=history..CombatMarshmallow (talk) 19:02, 28 August 2015 (UTC)
Why do you bother writing "to" me. In the future everything you do or type will be ignored. If its inaccurate it won't be added and if its not about showing why you feel you have any validity pushing your "sociology" angle it will be ignored. have a nice day. CombatMarshmallow (talk) 19:10, 28 August 2015 (UTC)
- Apparently you have no intention of collaborating. Take a look at Wikipedia:Collaborations, which does not support your obstinacy. Your stance has more of WP:OWN about it, which is not going to work. Binksternet (talk) 21:49, 28 August 2015 (UTC)
Apparently, you're not "me". So you have no clue what Im able or willing do to. Thanks For Your Concern. I don't agree with things that aren't right. If thats against how you feel, its not about feelings, its about what is right. Plus aren't you the editor that typed all of this “There is nothing in the article that gives proper emphasis to the solo. The power chord is rightfully discussed in a subsection, but the solo isn’t”, “There is no organized discussion of guitar solos, as there is for power chords.”, “There's nothing "clear" about guitar solos being spread around the article without having their own paragraph”. Yes, you are. So I would say if thats your understanding of an article you probably have no better understanding of my stance. have a nice day, until you write me again probably in less than 2 hours, tops. CombatMarshmallow (talk) 21:54, 28 August 2015 (UTC)
Should the Lyrical themes section identify the organization criticizing heavy metal lyrics as the Parents Music Resource Center?
The section on lyrical themes has a sentence about how heavy metal lyrics have been criticized by music critics for certain issues and by others for misogyny and occult themes. There is a "who?" tag after the word "others." No source is cited for the claim that others have criticized metal lyrics for misogyny and occult themes. One of the organizations that has criticized heavy metal for misogyny and occult themes is the Parents Music Resource Center. Two sources support this assertion.OnBeyondZebrax • TALK 20:31, 31 August 2015 (UTC)
- The sentence: "Heavy metal's main subject matter is simple and virtually universal. With grunts, moans and subliterary lyrics, it celebrates...a party without limits.... [T]he bulk of the music is stylized and formulaic."[1] Music critics have often deemed metal lyrics juvenile and banal, and others[who?] have objected to what they see as advocacy of misogyny and the occult. During the 1980s, the Parents Music Resource Center petitioned the U.S. Congress to regulate the popular music industry due to what the group asserted were objectionable lyrics, particularly those in heavy metal songs.[2] " As a part of a featured article it can be assumed with a reasonable certainty that If "others" was "Parents Music Resource Center" It wouldn't just be in the Sentence that Follows it. Apparently "other" reliable sources criticized it but sources haven't been added. yet. When it says that The Parents Music resource center "asserted were objectionable lyrics, particularly those in heavy metal songs." It includes all, topics. Occult, sex, drugs, truancy, everything. The "others" is not implying PMRC. PMRC has its own sentence entry. CombatMarshmallow (talk) 20:50, 31 August 2015 (UTC)
References
See, e.g., Ewing and McCann (2006), pp. 104–113
- there, its Done. Others has a source not a Citation.with this Book Source, [1] CombatMarshmallow (talk) 21:10, 31 August 2015 (UTC)
According to Robert Walser, heavy metal harmonic relationships are "...often quite complex" and the harmonic analysis done by metal players and teachers is "...often very sophisticated."[1]In her study of heavy metal chord structures, Esa Lilja states that "...heavy metal music has proved to be far more complicated than has been previously suggested." She states that heavy metal harmony typically uses modal harmonic relationships "...coupled with pentatonic and blues-derived features."[2]
- "heavy metal music has proved to be far more complicated than has been previously suggested." It hasn't been suggested at all. Also these are opinions. Not Facts.CombatMarshmallow (talk) 15:41, 9 September 2015 (UTC)
References
Walser, Robert (2014). Running With the Devil: Power, Gender, and Madness in Heavy Metal Music. Wesleyan University Press. p. 47.
Lilja, Esa (2009). "Theory and Analysis of Classic Heavy Metal Harmony". Advanced Musicology. 1. IAML Finland.
- This part has merit and should be merged in above section. "...coupled with pentatonic and blues-derived features." CombatMarshmallow (talk) 15:46, 9 September 2015 (UTC)
"...heavy metal music has proved to be far more complicated than has been previously suggested." This is not previously suggested. Even in the article..…..She states that heavy metal harmony typically uses modal harmonic relationships " That is Already is stated “Harmonically speaking, this means the genre typically incorporates modal chord progressions such as the Aeolian progressions I-VI-VII, I-VII-(VI), or I-VI-IV-VII and Phrygian progressions implying the relation between I and ♭II (I-♭II-I, I-♭II-III, or I-♭II-VII for example)” So you added something that says "as previously suggested" that has not ever been suggested, it makes no sense. Also the statement about Modal Harmonic Relationships why have it there instead of where Harmonic Modal relationships are mentioned already. Also what happened with this section being worked out first so people don't try and revert their point without reading and understanding it first. Thats what is supposed to prevent this. CombatMarshmallow (talk) 16:02, 9 September 2015 (UTC)
- The "opinions" of our reliable sources are what defines the topic. Music certainly has facts (tempo, for instance), but a very great deal of it is also emotional and subjective. That's why we tell the reader what are the main "opinions" described in the literature. Binksternet (talk) 17:39, 9 September 2015 (UTC)
- Late reply, but agree with Binksternet comment about opinions. One person's opinion can be another's fact, depending on their view of the topic. Per WP:NPOV, we should include relevant views in the article. That being said, I greatly appreciated the copy-editing that @CombatMarshmallow: did to improve the section. Ravensfire (talk) 21:03, 10 September 2015 (UTC)
- Thank You. Im glad to have anything I do appreciated. Thank you for telling me.CombatMarshmallow (talk) 21:22, 10 September 2015 (UTC)
"Welsh band Bullet for My Valentine's third studio album Fever debuted at position number 3 on the Billboard 200 and number 1 on Billboard's Rock and Alternative charts, making it the band's most successful record to date. In recent years, metalcore bands have received prominent slots at Ozzfest and the Download Festival. Lamb of God, a groove metal band, hit the Billboard top 10 in 2006 with Sacrament. The success of these bands and others such as Trivium and Avenged Sevenfold[1] which have released both metalcore and straight-ahead thrash albums. Bands like Motionless In White have experimented with Metalcore further by including Gothic Metal and Industrial Metal influences. Other notable experiments include Asking Alexandria mixing Trance, this has led to an explosion of bands following this combination. One such band is Silent Descent who mix Melodic Death Metal with trance." not seeing the point of https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special:Contributions/Statik_N erasing it, at least twice. If its correct Id like to learn why, if its incorrect Id also, like to learn why. Its always an opportunity to learn more. CombatMarshmallow (talk) 03:33, 11 September 2015 (UTC)
CombartMarshamallow installed a poor blurry image that he personally took of a little known band by the name Hogans Heroes, a band whose article gets 2000 views on this site. He/she is closely linked to the subject. I could care less about Bullet for My Valentine. What is clear however, from VH1 where they are listed among the main metalcore acts, and from their Billboard chart success which I cited, is that Bullet for My Valentine belong in the article. Killswitch Engage who are listed have less chart success with their albums on Billboard peaking in the 20s. VH1 and Billboard are reliable sources and aren't slanted by personal tastes. That is all I'm going to say on the matter.RyanTQuinn (talk) 21:20, 17 September 2015 (UTC)
- What is "nonsense" You are engaged in an edit war, now currently with at least one Administrator. You have also done about 5 reverts all to your own POV after being told by at least 3 editors and at minimum one administrator, to Stop and Also, to take it to the Talk page, which were ignored and you made reverts anyway, to your own POV. Not nonsense. Truth.CombatMarshmallow (talk) 20:30, 17 September 2015 (UTC)
What is clear from this article is all CombartMarshamallow does is edit war, then throws around the label toward others. "at least one Amininstrator"...hmm lets make stuff up now too shall we? I've no time for games. I want Drmies to comment on this. You are closely linked to the band Hogans Heroes. You have written most of their article and took a blurry photo of them, then installed it on here. What is your involvement with this little known band? RyanTQuinn (talk) 21:51, 17 September 2015 (UTC)
Ignoring all the issues regarding edit-warring, I do think the photo for Hogan's Heroes is particularly poor and should be replaced.Doctorhawkes (talk) 12:54, 19 September 2015 (UTC)
- the picture shows what it needs to. heres who added it including one administrator 1. https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Heavy_metal_music&diff=prev&oldid=681543799, 2. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special:Contributions/73.193.195.69 3. https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Heavy_metal_music&diff=681529999&oldid=681529647 4. https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Heavy_metal_music&diff=681513709&oldid=681510726 5. https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Heavy_metal_music&diff=681508151&oldid=681504472 CombatMarshmallow (talk) 12:57, 19 September 2015 (UTC)
- Reading the comments made for those reversions, they are talking about undue weight for BFMV and the fact changes should be discussed on the talk page first, which I'm doing. I'm not advocating including any BFMV stuff, just the exclusion of the Hogan's Heroes photo, which is beyond poor for an article of this calibre. Doctorhawkes (talk) 13:09, 19 September 2015 (UTC)
- Ever edit here before. Those edits which you, seem to interpret to your POV. That isn't what they mean or imply. CombatMarshmallow (talk) 14:29, 19 September 2015 (UTC)
- Anybody can comment here, and all commenters have equal footing. My opinion on this issue is that the band Hogan's Heroes should not be mentioned at all in this article, as they are very little known, and not at all influential in metal. Sputnik and AllMusic do not have a biography on the band, which shows how little known they are. MTV's biography says they are primarily punk, especially skate punk. So let's keep them out of the heavy metal article. Binksternet (talk) 16:31, 19 September 2015 (UTC)
- Honestly, I don't have any POV. I'm not opposed to anything besides bad photos. I now see that you took the photo and might feel a little defensive, but that photo is well below the quality expected for a featured article.Doctorhawkes (talk) 01:07, 20 September 2015 (UTC)
- It also could have been proposed to add a better photo. Its ok it will all be worked out. I don't feel defensive. The purpose of the photo was to have it that way to just show movement and energy not faces or sweat. It was taken way too far and he actually removed the group completely when he knows from the metalcore page they are a real pioneer. Its no joke. I only made the page because in my music I knew they were before everyone and was told here at wikipedia (around 2006) that they didnt have a page and the only way they would put them in articles the belonged was with a page. I waited 5 or 6 years, then just did it myself.All this stuff "and the band Hogan's Heroes has even less importance" not even accurate. Their importance can never be erased from Music History and being they were one of the first 35 bands ever in the chain retail stores, their importance doesn't rely on "binksternet" opinion. They are the 4th group in the whole state of NJ to ever get in the real retail stores in malls, everywhere, worldwide distribution, in the states Sam Goody, Record World, Tower, everywhere, with their Own Section. Buddy Holly was a few rows away in the vinyl and in the cassette section of hardcore punk they were with all the early minor threat circle jerks black flag cro mags everyone. People forget how small hardcore was and making it to the chain stores for a hardcore band back then was like a band getting a grammy. It was unheard of. The first people (from NJ) were Misfits, Samhain and Adrenaline OD. They had and have metal in their first demo and Bomb Guy Demo both from 1985 and songs are Hosted at American Hardcore movie maker Stephen Blush website. They are no joke.CombatMarshmallow (talk) 01:25, 20 September 2015 (UTC)
- "It also could have been proposed to add a better photo." That's exactly what I did do.Doctorhawkes (talk) 04:39, 20 September 2015 (UTC)
- I didnt understand replacing it now I do. I know some people in my state that can/should be able to get a picture. Meanwhile their material should be restored. Im not going to start reverting it. CombatMarshmallow (talk) 16:47, 20 September 2015 (UTC)
- MTV "bios" are submitted by fans. Im the person who submitted it there. I should still have the password and can make it say "disco". They already had a page made for them and no one added anything to it, so I did. Anyone can, comment. How they got there is a good question. You were just canvassed https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User_talk:Binksternet#Heavy_metal_edits_by_CombatMarshmallow by that edit war editor. Also you aren't familiar how some bands are labels Multiple genres, sure you are. Making like there aren't references from Rolling Stone at their article isn't a good look. CombatMarshmallow (talk) 16:47, 19 September 2015 (UTC)
- You're not helping your case by showing MTV to be unreliable, as now there are fewer possible sources, and the band Hogan's Heroes has even less importance. Binksternet (talk) 16:56, 19 September 2015 (UTC)
- You really should edit what you know. You don't know this genre at all apparently. Its Ok Accuracy will prevail. I make statements about topics I know. So may case isn't to "you". However like I typed Rolling Stone is a Very Reliable source. Keep making pretend I guess. You know, theres a great chance you're mad at me because I am a really good editor and you added something way off from accurate at metalcore and I reverted it and since then https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Metalcore&diff=next&oldid=669832482 this is Your Behavior. You are now making pretend they don't have consensus as a Metalcore Pioneer and are not related to Heavy Metal music? Interesting. If you are. Theres proof you already know. All of a sudden its new to you huh.CombatMarshmallow (talk) 17:07, 19 September 2015 (UTC)
You stated "Sputnik" have no bio on the band but it Does say Metalcore http://www.sputnikmusic.com/bands/Hogans-Heroes/55331/ . Revert yourself.CombatMarshmallow (talk) 18:26, 19 September 2015 (UTC)
- According to "binkster" who was canvassed by that edit war editor "RyanTQuinn (talk" along with another editor who hasn't participated, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User_talk:OnBeyondZebrax#Heavy_metal_edits_by_CombatMarshmallow https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User_talk:Binksternet#Heavy_metal_edits_by_CombatMarshmallow they aren't "known" however people sell their releases and discography from all over the world. http://www.discogs.com/sell/list?artist_id=443726&ev=ab.CombatMarshmallow (talk) 18:45, 19 September 2015 (UTC)
- "No one knows the band" yet heres Skid Row (American band) members wearing their shirt in Metal Edge magazine 1990 http://www.hardcoreinnonhardcoreplaces.com/?search=&tag_ID=&page=36&PHPSESSID=94a5269b7fd88d232327ef4bcd59ac46 (July 5 2010 post).
- Also on the front Cover of heavy Metal Magazine Burrn from Japan http://www.ebay.com/sch/sis.html?_nkw=BURRN%20magazine%203%2090%20Skid%20Row%20Metallica%201990&_itemId=270491174829. from Sebastian's FB Hogan's Heroes Built To Last T-Shirt front cover https://www.facebook.com/sebastianbach/photos/pb.26257129808.-2207520000.1442697481./99635704808/?type=3&theater. CombatMarshmallow (talk) 21:13, 19 September 2015 (UTC)
- I just wanted to add my views on the VH1 website article and Billboard chart figures on BFMV. Whether a source counts as a WP:RS is a complicated matter, to be sure. However, at the start of the guideline, it states that deciding whether a source is an RS should take three elements into account. 1.How reliable is the piece of work? 2. How reliable/authoritative is the author? and 3. How reliable is the publisher (e.g., how much fact-checking and editorial review of the work is done)? The author of the VH1 article on metalcore bands, Samantha Lizzio, does not appear to be an authoritative writer on metal issues. As well, with the VH1 website, as compared with a book or magazine published by a major, reputable publisher, we don't know if Ms. Lizzio's web article was reviewed by a fact-checker or an editor. Regarding the Billboard chart figures, WP:NOR states that "Any interpretation of primary source material requires a reliable secondary source for that interpretation." What I understand that to mean is that we can't just take a record sales figure and use this to prove that Band X is an important metalcore band. I think what the policy is saying is we need to find a secondary source (book, article, etc) which takes the primary source material (Billboard chart figures) and interprets it and explains its significance. If you can find better sources, please provide them.OnBeyondZebrax • TALK 02:36, 20 September 2015 (UTC)
- True she is an intern who did copy editing. Anyone can submit an article to VH1 just google search "submit article to VH1" http://www.vh1.com/interact/terms/user_content.jhtml . She interned four months. Wasn't hired to write for them. Its great Bulllet for had great success. Hogan's Heroes are the pioneer of the whole section of metalcore without them and some others after there may not have been a metalcore music to play. Hogan's Heroes fit the whole criteria before there was one. Guitar solos, Metal Guitar sound and techniques, tremolo bar, harmonics, dive bombs, "mosh parts" later called breakdowns in almost Every song since 1984 and more. After studying this all very deeply and it became pretty amazing how many things they are before there was even an new genre name. They were already 6 studio recordings deep with this self titled Worldwide release recorded in 1989 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uIq_Q7e14HE, the unreleased 7' recorded in 1988 https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCQd3EaRdHZqPQn8JdmvHyKQ, both songs appeared re-recorded for the second release, the first release recorded in 1987 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5ysiR2kNdVY, even live in 1990 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-ShFwKaDDbY&index=1&list=PLCFEAD78095450DAE, playing and sounding in a way most never sounded. Even in 1987 these are both over 1,200 people shows https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-ShFwKaDDbY&index=1&list=PLCFEAD78095450DAE. Thought I read there is a thing on wikipedia where something is obvious. The first release recorded in 1987. The next groups formed 4 and 5 years later, 1988 and 1989 respectively. Hogan's Heroes formed 1984. This is 1985 second studio recording https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pKzklv6ffSQ&index=2&list=UUUAyAZdfBcL9iRdlbOAlxAw some of, Hosted by Stephen Blush American Hardcore Author and Movie (Performer H) http://www.americanhardcorebook.com/punk24/ . This is studied a Lot. The text needs to be fixed the photo needs to be re-added like 5 of us have done already. They are the start of the recent trend. CombatMarshmallow (talk) 04:38, 20 September 2015 (UTC)
- "Removing photo and all mention of Hogan's Heroes per WP:UNDUE -- band is unimportant to the topic" this is just Plain Wrong.CombatMarshmallow (talk) 04:39, 20 September 2015 (UTC)
Metalcore, a hybrid of extreme metal and hardcore punk,[1] emerged as a commercial force in the mid-2000s decade. Through the 1980s and 1990s, metalcore was mostly an underground phenomenon;[2] pioneering bands include Hogan's Heroes[3]this whole section removed was already Ok'ed by an administrator. Which can be proven. The reference [4] is what they got by selling a whole lot of units and being in the chain retail stores. Being a "Pop Artist" - Popular Artist. Probably like 4% of all the hardcore punk bands released actually made it in to this book https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phonolog with Duane Eddy Elvis Sade Eric Clapton KISS etc. Thus why I used it as a reference. I guess it wasnt "clear" by the section titled "POP Artists".CombatMarshmallow (talk) 16:32, 20 September 2015 (UTC)
References
Weinstein (2000), p. 288; Christe (2003), p. 372
I. Christe, Sound of the Beast: The Complete Headbanging History of Heavy Metal (London: HarperCollins, 2003), ISBN 0-380-81127-8, p. 184.
1948–1999 Muze, Inc. Hogan's Heroes. "Pop Artists Beginning with 'Hod'", Phonolog, 1999, p. 1. No. 7-278B Section 207.
1948–1999 Muze, Inc. Hogan's Heroes. "Pop Artists Beginning with 'Hod'", Phonolog, 1999, p. 1. No. 7-278B Section 207.
I added this information to the metalcore article and to heavy metal. Binksternet (talk claimed I "work for the company" and is telling me I can't edit without asking via a warning. Cant a person just create an article that they understand and put them where they rightfully belong without being accused. Ive been accused of creating stuff after it took hours of searches on google.
He claimed they were mage at "google" or something I have no idea. Unreal. Hogan's Heroes,[1][2][3][4][5][6] Earth Crisis, and Integrity.
- Meanwhile https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Special:Contributions/OnBeyondZebrax&offset=&limit=500&target=OnBeyondZebrax created the Deena Weinstein article https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Deena_Weinstein&action=history and adds Deena Weinstein everywhere possible including at Heavy Metal music page and he doesn't issue a warning there but gives me one claiming I am part of some company.CombatMarshmallow (talk) 06:10, 22 September 2015 (UTC)
References
1948–1999 Muze, Inc. Hogan's Heroes. "Pop Artists Beginning with 'Hod'", Phonolog, 1999, p. 1. No. 7-278B Section 207.
Hand in Glove. "Metalcore". 2015-08-11. Retrieved 2015-09-18. Metalcore (or metallic hardcore) is a fusion genre blending extreme metal and hardcore punk. The name is a portmanteau of the names of the two genres, which is known as metallic hardcore distinguished by its emphasis on breakdowns, which are slow, intense passages that are used for moshing. Pioneering bands, such as Hogan's Heroes, Avenged Sevenfold, Earth Crisis, Deadguy, Hatebreed, Bury Your Dead and Integrity, lean more towards beatdown hardcore, whereas latter bands - Killswitch Engage, Bullet For My Valentine, Parkway Drive and Blood Has Been Shed- lean more towards extreme metal.
Amazon.ca. "THE ORIGIN & HISTORY OF METALCORE MUSIC". 2015-08-11. Retrieved 2015-09-18. Metalcore or metallic core is an extensive fusion genre that is a blend of extreme metal and hardcore punk. Metalcore music puts its emphasis on breakdowns, which are intense, slow passages that are conducive to slamdancing or moshing. Early bands like Hogan's Heroes, Integrity, and Earth Crisis were distinctly into hardcore punk, while later bands like Underoath, All That Remains, The Devil Wears Prada, Killswitch Engage, Trivium, Bullet for My Valentine, and As I Lay Dying has a strong inclination towards metal. Sepultura and Pantera influenced later bands and the additional advancement of metalcore. Subgenres include mathcore, deathcore, and melodic metalcore.
Music Nectar. "Metalcore". 2015. Retrieved 2015-09-19. Metalcore is a fusion genre which combines hardcore ethics and heavier hardcore music with heavy metal elements. Heavy metal-hardcore punk hybrids arose in the mid-1980s and would also radicalize the innovations of hardcore as the two genres and their ideologies intertwined noticeably, resulting in two main genres one being metalcore. The term has been used to refer to bands that were not purely hardcore nor purely metal such as pioneering bands Earth Crisis, Integrity and Hogan's Heroes.
prezi. "History of Metalcore". 2015-05-01. Retrieved 2015-09-10. The Pioneers of a New Age (early 1990's) Hogan's Heroes (2 Albums Shown - Built To Last and Self Titled) (Attempting to evolve the sound even further - Replaced punk style vocals with screaming vocals) - Earth Crisis - (photo shown) (Attempting to evolve the sound even further - Replaced punk style vocals with screaming vocals) - Transcript of The History of Metalcore The Pioneers of a New Age, Hogan's Heroes, On the Brink of Commercial Success, Keep Calm and Wait for The Breakdown, - Characterized by a slower, heavier beat than that of the rest of the song, The Dawn of Metalcore, - Agnostic Front and Suicidal Tendencies began experimenting with different genres, The History of Metalcore (1980's-1990's) - Thrash Metal - Punk - Hardcore (Speed) (Harsh Vocals) (Aggression) Metalcore - Containing mainly the drums and a chugging rhythm from the guitars (Melody + Breakdowns) Breakdown Example - Earth Crisis ( Early 1990's) - Attempting to evolve the sound even further - Replaced punk style vocals with screaming vocals (Hogan's Heroes) (1990's - 2000's) In the late 90's Metalcore had finally gained a massive following, Century Media Records, Metal Blade Records, Rosters full of Metalcore bands, Inches away from reaching commercial success, (Tim Lambesis, As I Lay Dying), New Millennium, New Trends, (Early 2000's) - Heavily influenced by Swedish Death Metal, (The Jester's Dance, In Flames), (Agnostic Front) - Began incorporating melodic influences, Led to the creation of…, Killswitch Engage, Atreyu, All That Remains, Killswitch Engage, Formed:Westfield, Massachusetts, U.S. from:1999, Members: Jesse Leach (Vocals), Mike D'Antonio (Bass), Joel Stroetzel, Adam Dutkiewicz (Guitars), Justin Folley (Drums) Features: Melodic guitar riffs, double bass drum patterns, dual-guitar harmonies and, breakdowns - Their Record "The End of Heartache" peaked at #21 of the bilboard 200, selling 38,000 copies in the first week. - The album sold more than 500,000 copies - Nominated "Best Metal Performance" for the 47th Grammy Awards. (The End of Heartache, Killswitch Engage), Atreyu From: Orange County, California, U.S. (1998-2011, 2014- Present), Formed:1998 Members: Alex Varkatzas (vocals), Dan Jacobs (lead guitar), Travis Miguel (rhythm guitar), Marc Mcknight (bass), Brandon Saller (drums, vocals), Studio Albums: Suicide Notes and Butterfly Kisses (2002), The Curse (2004), A Death Grip on Yesterday (2006), Lead Sails Paper Anchor (2007), Congregation of the Damned (2009), Lip Gloss And Black, Atreyu (2002), All That Remains, From: Springfield, Massachusetts (2000 - Present), Formed: 2000, Members: Phillip Labonte (Vocals), Oli Herbert, Mike Martin (Guitars), Jeanne Sagan (Bass), Jason Costa (Drums), Top 3 Studio Albums: The Fall of Ideals (2006), Overcome (2008), For We are Many (2010), Six (Instrumental), All That Remains (2006), Moshing - Style of dance where participants push and slam into each other. -Originated in the 1980's, in Washington D.C. during the Hardcore movement., Circle Pits, Wall of Death - The Present State of Metalcore - New generations of kids attempt to simplify the genre - Abusing Metalcore's strengths, abusing them and, watering them down (Ex. Breakdowns) - Abuse of Studio Techniques (Ex. Auto-Tune), Making the once golden genre sound: - Generic - Repetitive - Mediocre - Lifeless - Fake - Over Produced - Unnecessarily low-tuned guitars, (Do you even Djent?), The "Djent Stick", (19 seconds, Profiting Off of Religion - Making money off of the middle-upper class market - Faking a Christian Faith in order to be accepted into households - Changed their lyrics to appeal to the Christian demographic, One in ten Christian bands we toured with were actually Christian bands. Tim Lambesis, AP Magazine.
General-Books. "Hardcore punk". 2014. Retrieved 2015-09-10. Metalcore is a fusion genre which combines hardcore ethics and heavier hardcore music with heavy metal elements. Heavy metal-hardcore punk hybrids arose in the mid-1980s and would also radicalize the innovations of hardcore as the two genres and their ideologies intertwined noticeably, resulting in two main genres one being metalcore. The term has been used to refer to bands that were not purely hardcore nor purely metal such as pioneering bands Earth Crisis, Integrity and Hogan's Heroes.