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Opening up a discussion as to whether the lead should mention his controversial comments that have been widely covered in the media with numerous articles detailing his comments. Proposed wording for lead:
The One I Left (talk) 03:34, 17 May 2024 (UTC)
References
User:TanRabbitry keeps removing sourced content that is properly sourced and notable claiming it to be "defamatory". Not sure how. Please state your case here and gain a consensus before removing sourced material. He specifically condemned the "Anti-Semitism Awareness Act" and accused the first-century Jews for being responsible for the death of Jesus. There is sourced editorials commenting on his statements which is absolutely relevant. User:Drmies noted, "Wikipedia:Reliable sources/Perennial sources has RS as an RS", The One I Left (talk) 12:48, 18 May 2024 (UTC)
@The One I Left https://royalsocietypublishing.org/doi/10.1098/rsif.2013.0466 This study is one. That wording sounds just fine. By the way, I did not add that line, as Dmries claimed, if you were under that impression. TanRabbitry (talk) 21:19, 18 May 2024 (UTC)
I think we need to add quotations from his supporters. The article says his statements were "controversial," but only includes one perspective. Here is a first draft of an addition:
Two should be enough, right? There are two critical and two supportive opinions. Source for former quotation:[1] Source for latter quotation:[2] These aren't completely filled out. It wouldn't let me add them the normal way for some reason. TanRabbitry (talk) 19:16, 18 May 2024 (UTC)
IMO The addition of several quotations from people who supported Butker's comments are less than vital to the strength of the article and the accuracy of the section. His comments were of note because they were controversial. Simply pointing out that there were people that agreed with him does not illustrate that point. Not all of them need to go but I don't think it is necessary to have an equal number of supporting quotes as critical ones. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Jdmvaawesome (talk • contribs) 19:03, 24 May 2024 (UTC)
References
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Remove “Jr. “ he is not a junior, he and his father have different middle names. His middle name is his mother’s maiden name. Otteller (talk) 01:17, 21 May 2024 (UTC)
Throughout the "views" section, there are multiple introductions of Butker's commencement speech at Benedictine College when it had already been introduced prior (see the "Comments about women in the workforce" and "Political beliefs" subsections). I believe that these should be reworded so that we're not constantly reintroducing the commencement speech, or potentially consolidated into a single section covering the reaction to the speech as a whole. But what does everyone else think? Usually, I try to be bold and apply these changes on my own, but I'm on the fence with what should be done here. Thus, I will throw this one out to my fellow editors -- what do you think would be the better option? JeffSpaceman (talk) 02:08, 21 May 2024 (UTC)
Yah I agree I think it would make much more sense to have to have one subheading for his Benedictine Speech Comments and to just put everything related to it under that rather than keep reintroducing it in every other section. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Jdmvaawesome (talk • contribs) 19:09, 24 May 2024 (UTC)
This explanation is a bit long, but I would encourage anyone attempting to link the "Jewish Comments" section to the idea that the Jews collectively, currently and exclusively are morally responsible for the death of Jesus to consider a few things. First, read the opening of the linked article: "the notion that the Jews as a people are collectively responsible for the killing of Jesus, even through the successive generations following His death." Second, read the text of this article: "he spoke about first-century Jews as being responsible for the death of Jesus." The latter statement contradicts the former.
Lastly, consider the words in his quotation: "the biblical teaching of who killed Jesus." Because of this phrasing, referencing what he is describing should illuminate the answer. Matthew 26: 3-4 reads: "Then the chief priests and the elders of the people assembled in the palace of the high priest, whose name was Caiaphas, and they schemed to arrest Jesus secretly and kill him." After the arrest and appearing before the former high priest, the current one and the Sanhedrin, (see John 18: 19-24 and Matthew 26:57) "they led Jesus from the house of Caiaphas to the governor’s headquarters," (John 18:28) then to Herod and back to the governor, Pilate (Luke 23: 11-12).
The most important part relevant to this is
Matthew 27:20-25 which reads: "Now the chief priests and the elders persuaded the crowd to ask for Barabbas and destroy Jesus. The governor again said to them, 'Which of the two do you want me to release for you?' And they said, 'Barabbas.' Pilate said to them, 'Then what shall I do with Jesus who is called Christ?' They all said, 'Let him be crucified!' And he said, 'Why? What evil has he done?' But they shouted all the more, 'Let him be crucified!' So when Pilate saw that he was gaining nothing, but rather that a riot was beginning, he took water and washed his hands before the crowd, saying, 'I am innocent of this man’s blood; see to it yourselves.' And all the people answered, 'His blood be on us and on our children!'"
Despite some people's misunderstanding of this passage, the guilt for Jesus' death is described in the Bible as being that of the world, not just the Jews and Romans.
It is important to remember in this discussion that Jesus and all his disciples are Jewish, as well. Much later, addressing a Jewish audience, Peter says: “You, with the help of wicked men, put him to death by nailing him to the cross” (Acts 2:23). L Later, Paul (also Jewish) writes "I ask, then, has God rejected his people? By no means!" (Romans 11:1). The idea that all Jews are cursed and rejected is the heart of the errant theory and it is directly contradicted here. Additionally, Zechariah 12:10 reads “And I will pour out on the house of David and the inhabitants of Jerusalem a spirit of grace and pleas for mercy, so that, when they look on me, on him whom they have pierced, they shall mourn for him, as one mourns for an only child, and weep bitterly over him, as one weeps over a firstborn." The first verse of the next chapter reads: "On that day there shall be a fountain opened for the house of David and the inhabitants of Jerusalem, to cleanse them from sin and uncleanness."
These quotations are completely clear and may be understood by any rational person. So we can see clearly that the idea the article was linked to is not, in fact biblical (something already claimed in both articles, so there really isn't an argument), which is what the subject of the article was referring to. The subject of this article explicitly referred to what is in the Bible. Therefore, linking it to the other article is both false and does a disservice to the reader by prejudicing them against his words without cause. Thank you, TanRabbitry (talk) 19:01, 24 May 2024 (UTC)
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Perhaps based on the redirect of “pro-life” links to the Anti abortion movement page, it would be more appropriate (as per modern language movements) to change the heading “Pro-life advocacy” to “Anti-choice advocacy,” however leaving this bit that he wore a “pro-life shirt” seems accurate. Thank you. 216.197.208.136 (talk) 15:25, 25 May 2024 (UTC)
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Please change "The speech was met with applause and a standing ovation from the audience.[68]" to " ".
In depth:
Headline "Comments about Jews": Second Sentence: "The speech was met with applause and a standing ovation from the audience.[68]"
Issue: The description is not materially relevant at all and can be confused as an endorsement of the subjects material from Wikipedia's side. The text should be as neutral as possible, mentioning the audience reaction is not typical and too editorialized. If it is not removed a rephrasing would also be acceptable. Furthermore: The sourcing is dubious. In the source provided it is said that "he received a standing ovation from graduates and other attendees" not all or the entire audience. The rephrasing in "the audience" is not correct, it assumes the entirety of the audience was of this opinion when this is not specifically mentioned in the source.
Request: Removal of this sentence. If not removed: Rephrase the sentence. Possible Alternatives: "Some members of the audience showed their approval to this message." "Some attendees decided to vocalize their support." "Some audience members applauded this message" However as mentioned above, this is not helpful or materially relevant and thus should be removed. Proffesseurevil (talk) 13:45, 17 June 2024 (UTC)
Nobody can fail to perceive that the term "pro-life" is a gross violation of the NPOV policy. The neutral descriptor is "anti-abortion". I would appreciate it if other people would also help to deal with the problematic editor who will not stop pushing their POV here. Whasha (talk) 22:39, 5 August 2024 (UTC)
Do either of you have objections to the removal of the old sections in which we discussed article Harrison Butker months ago? Considering the following, I was under the impression that was the plan:
"We can close out this discussion since I think you are now fine with the inclusion of the Jewish commentsThe One I Left (talk) 17:16, 19 May 2024 (UTC)
I don't think twenty-eight thousand-odd words are needed here anymore. Thank you,
TanRabbitry (talk) 20:19, 11 August 2024 (UTC)
Do we need a whole section outlining his views on every topic? I believe one section about his infamous speech that includes all of the controversial statements he made in it would make more sense, especially given that he's primarily an athlete and not involved politically.Neverilluminated (talk) 16:06, 1 September 2024 (UTC)
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