Jpcase Youngkin failing to comment on the 2020 election isn't a political position that is still substantially covered in the media and therefore does not belong in that section. It was a matter of the 2021 campaign, and it is covered in that section in detail. After the 2021 campaign the issue was irrelevant to him, Virginia, the media, and his political opponents, while his views on abortion, taxes, race, covid-19 etc. are all still discussed. Bill Williams 12:51, 14 October 2022 (UTC)
- News coverage about Youngkin does continue to discuss this. Fairly frequently. The quote that you removed was published nearly a full year after the 2021 campaign was over. You may personally consider the issue to be less relevant than others, but the fact that this continues to be discussed on a somewhat regular basis in news articles about Youngkin shows that political reporters do consider it to be among the more notable positions that Youngkin has taken throughout his career. Additionally, when sources like The Washington Post (or The Guardian, in this article published half-a-year after the election) say that Youngkin "flirted" with "conspiracy theories" or "false claims" about 2020, they aren't solely referring to his delay in acknowledging that Biden won the election; they're also referring to Youngkin's use of Amanda Chase as a campaign surrogate and his calls for a repeat audit of Virginia's 2020 election results. --Jpcase (talk) 15:20, 14 October 2022 (UTC)
- It has zero to do with his "tenure and political positions" and shouldn't be at the top of the section, which implies it summarizes different elements of the section. It only relates to his gubernatorial campaign, and is already mentioned in that section. There is no reason to repeat the same thing in a separate section that is unrelated. Bill Williams 01:44, 21 November 2022 (UTC)
- As I believe I've said in an earlier edit summary, political positions taken during a campaign are still political positions. And the top of the "Political positions and tenure" section was not intended to summarize its subsequent subsections in the way that the article's lead summarizes the body of the article, but rather, was intended to explain Youngkin's general place within the Republican Party's ideological spectrum. The varying responses taken within the Republican Party to 2020's election results, and to Trumpism in general, have been among the main dividing lines over the last several years within American conservatism. How Youngkin has engaged with those issues is highly relevant to his political positions, not just to his gubernatorial campaign. --Jpcase (talk) 04:59, 21 November 2022 (UTC)
- It's extremely misleading to put something that was only relevant during his campaign in a section that is about all of his political views and his tenure as governor. Using direct quotes from sources about how Youngkin relates to Trump is just incredibly misleading and tells them nothing about Youngkin besides vaguely painting him as Trump. The entire section describes his positions in detail, so these quotes add nothing to the reader's benefit that isn't already in his gubernatorial campaign section. Bill Williams 05:53, 21 November 2022 (UTC)
- At this point, we're just talking in circles. I understand that you consider this "irrelevant", and you have every right to feel that way. But our personal feelings shouldn't be determining how Youngkin's political career is covered. The article needs to reflect how sources have discussed Youngkin's career, and as I've pointed out, Youngkin's response to the 2020 election results continues to be frequently discussed by mainstream news outlets. If this had become irrelevant to journalists after the election, then they wouldn't still be writing about it so consistently.
- I'm not interested in edit warring with you, which is why I've left a number of your edits unchanged, even though I disagree with them. I'm hoping that we can both be willing to give a little bit of ground on this. If you strongly feel that the top of "Tenure and political positions" shouldn't be mentioning political positions taken by Youngkin during his campaign (or his affiliation with Amanda Chase), then I won't continue to push back on that. What I'd ask in return is that the article's lead be left in its current state. --Jpcase (talk) 20:37, 21 November 2022 (UTC)
- It has nothing to do with personal feelings, my point is that you are misrepresenting what is DUE and notable for the article. The sources never state that Youngkin calls himself an ally of Trump or Amanda Chase, and claiming that he does in the article is false. It is true that he has taken specific positions on Trump and the 2020 election, but putting that in the lead as if that is one of the most important things about Youngkin is absurd, because all it adds to the lead is "Youngkin disagrees with this one specific person." Bill Williams 23:14, 21 November 2022 (UTC)
- I also am not going to edit war over the mentions over Trump at the top of the "Tenure and political positions" section, but I do not believe it should be mentioned there, because saying his positions are like Trump is not backed up by his actual positions. Trump has criticized Youngkin a number of times in the past month alone and it lists zero specific examples of how they have the same positions, therefore providing no benefit to the reader. Bill Williams 23:16, 21 November 2022 (UTC)
The New York Times and The Washington Post report the following:
- [Youngkin] worked early in the campaign to win Trump’s favor, and he received Trump’s endorsement immediately after his nomination.
- Republican candidate Glenn Youngkin and Trump repeatedly spoke by phone over the course of the campaign, according to people familiar with the conversations who were not authorized to speak publicly, allowing the two men to go the length of the contest without saying negative things about each other or clashing on strategy.
- After winning the G.O.P. nomination at a party convention in May, Mr. Trump endorsed him and Mr. Youngkin told a conservative radio host that he was honored. Yet while Mr. Youngkin’s top political aide, Jeff Roe, maintained a line of communication to Mr. Trump’s top political aide, Susie Wiles, the former president kept the Virginia campaign on edge in the weeks before Election Day. The two sides worked to arrange Mr. Trump’s “tele-rally” on the eve of the election, according to an aide to Mr. Youngkin, but there was no coordination on what the former president would say.
If "working to earn Trump's favor", saying that he was "honored" to accept Trump's endorsement, arranging to have Trump speak at a campaign rally for him, and coordinating with Trump on strategy doesn't mean that Youngkin has, at least at one time in his career, treated Trump as a political ally, then...how should one view all of those details about Youngkin? That Youngkin has never "called himself" an ally of Trump is irrelevant. The lead never stated that Youngkin "called himself an ally of Trump". The lead stated that Youngkin "positioned himself as an ally of Trump", and those quotes I just shared very clearly describe Youngkin treating Trump as a political ally.
That Trump "has criticized Youngkin a number of times in the past month" matters even less. Trump has criticized a lot of his political allies. He's even criticized Mike Pence. Would you argue that it's inaccurate to describe Pence as a Trump ally simply because Trump has made some statements criticizing Pence?
all it adds to the lead is "Youngkin disagrees with this one specific person" - this statement you made completely ignores the fact that Youngkin waited until almost half a year after the election before disagreeing with Trump on the election results. You may not consider that fact to be relevant. But news sources do consider it to be relevant. I've pointed you to several sources from mainstream news outlets that treat it is relevant. I've pointed you to recent sources from mainstream news outlets that treat it is as relevant. If you personally consider it "absurd" that news outlets continue to treat it as relevant, then well, that's your right. I'm not trying to convince you that it's relevant. I'm not asking you to agree with news outlets about what is and isn't relevant. I'm just hoping that you'll agree that when news outlets consistently treat a topic as relevant, we should consider that topic as relevant for the purposes of this article, even in cases where we may disagree with which topics those outlets choose to prioritize.
As for Amanda Chase, the source that was provided states that Youngkin "has nurtured a bond" with Chase and "treated Chase to an unorthodox, private bill-signing" even though Chase had been "on the outs" with most other Virginia Republicans. Then there's also the fact that Youngkin employed Chase as an official campaign surrogate, well after she had already been censured by Virginia Republicans. So again, the fact that Youngkin himself has never used the word "ally" to describe his relationship with Chase matters far less than the fact that news articles clearly and consistently describe Youngkin treating Chase as a political ally.
But as I've already said, I'm willing to leave mention of Chase out of the Political Positions section. I'm willing to leave statements about political positions taken by Youngkin during the campaign out of the Political Positions section. But I'm not okay with removing any mention of Youngkin's political association with Trump from the article's lead. --Jpcase (talk) 02:17, 22 November 2022 (UTC)
- You need to self revert because you're using original research to make determinations that are not stated in the sources. Zero times do those two citations quote Youngkin "positioning himself as an ally," they simply state that he was happy to take Trump's endorsement, that's not that same thing at all and it's extremely disingenuous to treat them as such. You're using OR to make things DUE that are not due, like Youngkin's statement on the 2020 election, which again is something Youngkin disagrees with Trump on so the exact time he stated that belief is irrelevant. Unless you can find a reliable source that makes it notable, stop adding it to the article. Bill Williams 02:20, 22 November 2022 (UTC)
- It should be removed as failing verification, because your quotes from "multiple sources" simply state that Youngkin worked to make sure he wasn't hated by the leader of the Republican party, which is something almost every primary candidate engages in. It never says he treated him as an ally, it just says he allowed Trump to hold a telerally for him and was okay with it occurring. You're adding editorialization to what the reliable sources state. Bill Williams 02:23, 22 November 2022 (UTC)
- The sources never use the word "ally", but just because a specific word doesn't happen to appear in a source, doesn't mean it's OR to use that word when summarizing the source's statements. Arranging to have someone appear at a campaign rally is equivalent to treating that person as a political ally. Coordinating with someone on campaign strategy is equivalent to treating that person as a political ally. Anyone who is given a speaking slot at an official campaign rally is being treated as a political ally by the person running that campaign. Anyone who collaborates with a campaign on strategy is being treated as an ally by the person running that campaign. And not every Republican primary candidate has sought out Trump's endorsement. Most do, sure, but there are notable exceptions. Youngkin is not one of those exceptions. The suggestion that someone could accept an endorsement from a politician that they aren't treating as a political ally makes no sense.
- In addition to all that, Youngkin has stated that he would support Trump if Trump is nominated by the Republican Party for another presidential term - a stance that several Republican politicians have not taken - and has spoken out vocally in defense of Trump after Trump became the subject of federal investigation. None of this means that Youngkin supports every single thing about Trump, which is why the lead also clearly states that Youngkin has distanced himself from Trump on some issues. But it is not OR to say that Youngkin has, at least up to this point in his career, treated Trump as a political ally. --Jpcase (talk) 03:14, 22 November 2022 (UTC)
- Zero sources show that Youngkin considers Trump to be his ally, and the source you provides never states this. You are interpreting the source in an extremely misleading way, because zero times does it state that they are allies using the term "ally" or any synonym of it. Working with Trump on individual things does not mean he considers Trump to be his ally, even Joe Manchin voted with Trump 50% of the time, should we add that they're allies to his article lead? Bill Williams 05:39, 24 November 2022 (UTC)
The reality is the Youngkin campaign was trying to stop Trump from having a primary role in the campaign and they convinced him to do the phone rally to shut him up. Now Youngkin is thinking about a run for the presidency and Trump's attacking him. Seems like a stretch to call them allies. This page also seems like it's overly negative towards Youngkin by repeatedly bringing up things he's done and juxtaposing it with how Democrats disagree, unions disagree (who are generally Democratic proxies like business groups are with the GOP), and 'look we found some experts who do as well' when you can find some sort of expert to agree or disagree with just about any remotely non-extreme position. The page brings up Youngkin's predecessor too much as well. Other political pages don't harp on about their predecessor like this one. I feel like a neutral set of editor(s) need to come in and correct some of this bias. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 107.116.83.14 (talk) 16:05, 24 November 2022 (UTC)
- The reality is that Youngkin "worked early in the campaign to win Trump’s favor" and "repeatedly spoke by phone over the course of the campaign" with Trump "allowing the two men to go the length of the contest without saying negative things about each other or clashing on strategy." Those are direct quotes from mainstream news sources. I've seen no sources suggesting that Youngkin wanted to "shut Trump up".
- I'm aware that Youngkin has kept a certain amount of public distance from Trump, but it's a verifiable fact that the two of them privately maintained close ties throughout the campaign. To suggest that those close ties are irrelevant simply because they were somewhat de-emphasized by Youngkin in public settings does not at all feel like a neutral argument - especially considering that Youngkin did make several pro-Trump statements in public. And if we're going to make comparisons with the Joe Manchin article, then well, that article does state in its lead that Manchin supported Trump on some key issues. So while I'm very open to debating the exact language that we use to describe Youngkin's ties to Trump, it would be inconsistent with the Manchin article to completely omit all mention of those ties from the lead of Youngkin's own article.
- I wholeheartedly disagree with the suggestion that "working to earn" a politician's "favor", accepting that politician's endorsement, and coordinating with that politician on campaign strategy aren't each synonymous with treating the politician as an "ally". But I understand that "ally" is a strong term, and if the argument is that we should only use language that can be directly sourced, then I'm open to reworking the language. How would you feel about mentioning Youngkin's ties to Trump in the lead, so long as the language more closely matches the exact language used in available sources? --Jpcase (talk) 01:17, 25 November 2022 (UTC)
- The IP's point is valid that Trump and Youngkin certainly are not "allies" and mentioning such a nonsensical thing in the lead is misleading to readers. Youngkin worked with Trump during his primary because Trump was the leader of the GOP, there is nothing about that making them "allies" and you have provided no sources that state they are allies. Unless you can provide any, it should stay out of the article. Bill Williams 04:51, 25 November 2022 (UTC)
- I've already stated that I'm not attached to term "ally". But there are plenty of available sources out there describing Youngkin as close to Trump and Trumpism, using much more explicit terms than are used in the sources that I've already provided. If the lead describes Youngkin's political ties to Trump in terms matching those sources, would that solve your objections? Or is your position that the lead can't mention Trump in any context under any circumstances, regardless of what sources say about the two of them? --Jpcase (talk) 18:36, 25 November 2022 (UTC)