Talk:Gasparilla Pirate Festival

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Gasparilla Pirate Festival has been listed as one of the Social sciences and society good articles under the good article criteria. If you can improve it further, please do so. If it no longer meets these criteria, you can reassess it. Review: January 21, 2024. (Reviewed version).

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The contents of the Ye Mystic Krewe of Gasparilla page were merged into Gasparilla Pirate Festival. For the contribution history and old versions of the redirected page, please see its history; for the discussion at that location, see its talk page.

The contents of the Sant'Yago Knight Parade page were merged into Gasparilla Pirate Festival. For the contribution history and old versions of the redirected page, please see its history; for the discussion at that location, see its talk page.

A fact from Gasparilla Pirate Festival appeared on Wikipedia's Main Page in the Did you know column on 2 March 2024 (check views). The text of the entry was as follows: Did you know... that since 1904 the Gasparilla Pirate Festival (float pictured) in Tampa, Florida, has featured a pirate-themed parade? A record of the entry may be seen at Wikipedia:Recent additions/2024/March. The nomination discussion and review may be seen at Template:Did you know nominations/Gasparilla Pirate Festival.

Further discussion

Thought I'd separate new comments here so they're easier to see. I took care of the easier revision suggestions before Christmas, and I've been pondering the revamp of the history section while visions of sugarplums danced in my head. I agree that there's a bit of redundancy, and as a public high school history teacher in Florida, I fully appreciate the dangers of whitewashing the harsh realities of segregation and racial injustice and agree that the section on the integration controversy needs to be more direct. However, it shouldn't go too far in the other direction, either. The articles you found by Greg Bell seem to take their lead from the seminal work by d'Ans, who did a great job debunking the Jose Gaspar myth but then went on a bit of a determinist tangent about the deeper meaning of the festival without actually ever coming to Tampa to get a better understanding of the complex local situation. Tampa's been a unique multicultural island in the south since the 1880s, so issues of race and diversity are not nearly as black and white as d'Ans and Bell seem to believe, pun intended. Their views on the deep sociological underpinnings of Gasparilla are also not commonly shared in print, so while they should get a mention, to emphasize them too much would be WP:UNDUE. I will definitely add more context about Jim Crow and segregation with regards to YMKG, however, as it was definitely lacking.

I started the process but family obligations call; I'll get back to it this evening. Zeng8r (talk) 15:14, 5 January 2024 (UTC)

I agree with everything you’ve said, and I look forward to your improvements. Viriditas (talk) 19:27, 5 January 2024 (UTC)

Ok, I finally took a shot at the controversy section. Another good find with that 1990 NY Times article - I hadn't seen it before, either. How's the article look now? Zeng8r (talk) 21:36, 11 January 2024 (UTC)

@Zeng8r: Much better. I'm in the middle of something right now, but I will give it a close look later tonight. Viriditas (talk) 22:16, 11 January 2024 (UTC)

@Zeng8r: Impressive job on this. I've passed the neutrality criterion. Will work on reviewing the rest. Viriditas (talk) 08:01, 12 January 2024 (UTC)

Sounds good. I tweaked a couple of sentences today and added a new reference about the pirate ship (there were conflicting accounts of its exact size), but I'll leave it be for now unless you have more suggestions. Zeng8r (talk) 19:44, 12 January 2024 (UTC)

@Zeng8r: First, let me thank you for putting the time and effort into this, as it shows. A few minor things: You write: Though Tampa was home to the largest and most prosperous "Latin" population in the southern United States excepting New Orleans in the early 20th Century, it was strictly racially segregated like the rest of the Deep South. Can you provide page numbers for this? I'm not sure what you mean by "Latin", so for our readers, can you specify? Do you mean latino, hispanic, Latin American, or some combination? I just now see we have a separate article on this, Hispanics and Latinos in Florida, so perhaps you can link to that? Viriditas (talk) 19:49, 12 January 2024 (UTC)

The cited book ("The Immigrant World of Ybor City") covers the topic, but I could add an online source as well. "Latin" as used in Tampa means a unique mix of Cuban / Spanish / Italian immigrants. The article you suggested sorta covers it, but not quite, and I see that the section on Cubans in Florida over there is woefully incomplete since it only covers the post-Castro era. In any case, a wikilink would be better than nothing. Perhaps a "see also" link to History of Tampa, Florida would be in order at the top of discussion? Zeng8r (talk) 20:04, 12 January 2024 (UTC)

As long as it is transparent to the reader, you can do it however you want. Sometimes an explanatory footnote is also helpful, but as long as you choose the right word and the wikilink is there, that's probably the best you can do. I would, however, try to cut down on the scare quotes as there are a lot of them in the article. Viriditas (talk) 20:18, 12 January 2024 (UTC)

Also, regarding the slightly redundant phrase in the intro restating that Gaspar did not exist - I put it back because, as the pirate yarn explains, there's ongoing local confusion on that point. I've literally had people seriously argue online and in person that Gaspar was definitely real, and/or that his treasure is either still out there or was already found years ago by their grandfather's neighbor's fishing buddy or some such nonsense. Reiterating the fact that it's just a fun story seems like a good idea with local context in mind, imo. Zeng8r (talk) 19:51, 12 January 2024 (UTC)

Right. The only reason the other user and I removed it was because it was redundant with the use of folklore and legend and myth. I added "fictional story" in the lead, but I trust you to do with it what you prefer. Viriditas (talk) 19:54, 12 January 2024 (UTC)

@Zeng8r: The current version of the article passes all criteria except well-written (1) and verifiable (2) per the above concerns. I think we can fix this given the improvements you've already made. Right now, if you could focus on tightening the sourcing, that would be great. This means removing content you can't directly source, or if you are using WP:CALC, adding an explanatory footnote. I see that you have added a lot of sources to the end of paragraphs, which is acceptable in most cases per the GACR. The problem is that when you cite specific facts and figures, this becomes a chore for reviewers to verify, as some of the concerns above illustrate. So let's keep at this. Another thing to keep in mind is the excessive use of scare quotes to illustrate the fictional/entertainment reenactment, and to differentiate it from actual usage. You've explained your rationale for doing it this way, which I find commendable, but I think it fails to have the intended impact and should be used sparingly. The way to do this is to establish the fictional context beforehand (I made one attempt at this in the lead, you can do it in many other ways), and then to follow this with fictional prompts. This will insure that you don't have to use scare quotes in every section like you do, which I find really distracting and excessive. Viriditas (talk) 19:48, 13 January 2024 (UTC)

I guess we can safely assume that most "intelligent" readers will understand that it's not a real "pirate crew" sailing in on their "pirate ship" to "kidnap" the mayor and "invade" the city, so I'll take out most of those "scare quotes".

However, I'm not sure what specifically you're referring to regarding facts and figures and sources besides the issues in the economic impact section, which I just fixed. I couldn't find a non-paywalled citation for the 1,000,000 total attendees claim so I removed it, and since there's some official uncertainly about the third largest parade claim, I made the sentence less specific using a newer source. What other citations need "tightening" (pardon my quotes)? I honestly shouldn't spend too much more time on this right now, as a hefty stack of student essays has been crying out from my school bag the last couple of days already lol. Zeng8r (talk) 21:23, 13 January 2024 (UTC)

Thanks for doing that. I will finish this up and clarify any issues I find. Viriditas (talk) 21:38, 13 January 2024 (UTC)

@Zeng8r: The article is looking good. The only thing that sticks out is the small cancellation section which duplicates some material. Any chance of moving or incorporating this info elsewhere? Just wondering. Viriditas (talk) 23:22, 13 January 2024 (UTC)

Done, and I rearranged the history section a bit to make it flow a little more logically. Back to the topic of the "quotes"; most of your changes are fine, and though a handful feel a little clunky, it's not worth quibbling about. I did, however, restore the term "Supersized Gasparilla" in reference to the 2001 parade since that's what it was called in the media, including in the headline of the article cited at the end of that sentence. I'll check back this afternoon to see if there's any more cleanup to do... Zeng8r (talk) 14:18, 14 January 2024 (UTC)

Please go ahead and restore the article to your preference. I would like to see what it would look like. Viriditas (talk) 17:28, 14 January 2024 (UTC)

Ok, I just made a few little adjustments, the most important of which was correcting the length of the ship across the article. Are we good now? Though I'm busy irl, it'd be great to finish revisions before article page views shoot up astronomically over the next couple of weeks. Zeng8r (talk) 15:51, 16 January 2024 (UTC)

@Zeng8r: I will work on a final review shortly. I hope we can pass it soon. You should consider putting together a hook for DYK and posting a special occasion exemption request on the talk page so that somebody can review it and put it on the main page during the festival rather than waiting the month or so for normal DYK. My understanding is that they will try and give you the exemption and space provided there are no problems with the article or hook. Viriditas (talk) 17:43, 16 January 2024 (UTC)

@Zeng8r: I'm doing a final read-through and still finding issues, mostly to do with sourcing spot-checks. For example, the "parade route" section is very loosely cited to Powell 1977, which you don't include page numbers for. Looking through it, I see some of the material is supported, but some of it is not. Same thing in the "schedule" section. For example, I tried to source the official holiday statement, but it's nowhere to be found. I was able to find Fla. Stat. § 683.08, which I added to the article, but it's a bit odd we can't put a date on when it became a legal holiday for the county. I was able to go back until the 1980s with the statute, but I assume it goes back much farther. Several sources support the idea that "Gasparilla became a county-specific legal holiday in Hillsborough County during this time with local schools and government offices closed for the day" but they aren't in the article. The statement at the end, "A major change came in 1988, when the Parade of Pirates was moved to the first Saturday in February so that out-of-towners could more easily take part in the festivities" doesn't seem to be in the cited source, so maybe you could fix that. Viriditas (talk) 23:22, 17 January 2024 (UTC)

@Zeng8r: I've now passed all criterions except for 2b/c. The sourcing still has issues. I will update further in addition to the above. Viriditas (talk) 20:48, 18 January 2024 (UTC)

I think one possible way to expedite this review, since you are busy with work and incommunicado, is for me to just pull all the content that isn’t immediately verifiable. Let me know what you think. Viriditas (talk) 03:10, 19 January 2024 (UTC)

It was quite a week but I finally have a bit of time to work on this again and would argue that removing valid information (and everything mentioned is valid) because there's not a citation at the end of the sentence is a very bad idea. I'm positive that many or most of the facts were sourced at one point - perhaps the references got separated during various revisions. I'll take a look in few minutes. Zeng8r (talk) 19:12, 19 January 2024 (UTC)

No worries. Take your time. Just wanted to make sure you were getting my messages. I've been pinged a lot elsewhere and haven't received any of the pings, so reaching out isn't as easy as it should be. Viriditas (talk) 19:18, 19 January 2024 (UTC)

I did a whole article pass this morning to address the issues mentioned and generally give the text better flow after having moved things around earlier. Excepting any typos I may have missed among all the citation formatting, I think it's pretty darn good at this point, and I happily discovered a few interesting items to add to my already overstuffed Tampa history archive. So it's been fun, but I really can't spend much more time on this. Zeng8r (talk) 18:03, 21 January 2024 (UTC)

@Zeng8r: I got you fam. Give me an hour or so to try and close this out. Viriditas (talk) 19:17, 21 January 2024 (UTC)

Thank you for that last set of edits. I think it shows that when you have the free time, good things happen. Also, great work on the controversy section. I doubt anyone else here could have pulled that off. Well done. I've gone ahead and made several copyedits based on formatting and wording. Please review when you have a moment. I'm passing the article now, but I did want to leave some closing comments based on my reading of the article:

• Toxicity of bead pollution: This subject is covered in environmental impact of Mardi Gras beads, and it would be nice to see minimal coverage of the issue if the sources exist vis-à-vis Gasparilla.
• Lead contamination of ammo shells: I wanted to know if anyone had looked into this part of the history.
• Photo of SS American Victory "standing in for the US Navy": An addition of this photo would be great.
• Anthropology and sociology: This topic is likely covered by academics in their respective fields, and I was curious about the state of academic research in this area.
• 1971 bad weather and rough seas: Often when we describe bad weather on Wikipedia, we can link to a separate page on that weather phenomenon. I really wanted a link here.
• Official holiday status: Still need an incept date for the original county statute stipulating the holiday, which I could not find. I suspect if you have access to legal indexes it should show up.

Thanks for your hard work, and Happy Gasparilla! Viriditas (talk) 20:14, 21 January 2024 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Thanks

@Viriditas It's always helpful to work with a good editor when you're very close to the subject, and the article is noticeably tighter due to our collaboration. A tip o' me pirate hat to you!

One minor quibble - you removed a sentence from the tail end of the first paragraph in the controversy section because it didn't include a citation. That was actually the transition sentence introducing the main topic of the section, so the mentioned controversy is explained and cited over the next several paragraphs. I'll tweak the wording to make it a little more clear.

Also, I'll take a look at your further suggestions next week, as I also plan on getting some good pics during the parade and adding a subsection on floats. Hopefully I'll get it done before next year's festivities lol.

Thanks again! Zeng8r (talk) 16:03, 23 January 2024 (UTC)

@Zeng8r: Thank you. Don't forget to submit a DYK hook so that more people can read the article. If you need help, let me know. Viriditas (talk) 19:32, 23 January 2024 (UTC)

I've never actually done a DYK nomination in all my years as a Wikieditor and I'm not sure that I did it correctly. The link to the discussion below works, but I don't see it on the list of nominations under review. Any idea what's going on? Zeng8r (talk) 20:58, 23 January 2024 (UTC)

I will take a look. Viriditas (talk) 21:02, 23 January 2024 (UTC)

Yeah, I can fix it for you. In the future, install User:SD0001/DYK-helper. Viriditas (talk) 21:06, 23 January 2024 (UTC)

@Zeng8r: I fixed it by adding the template manually, fixing the link, and cutting down the caption. You're going to need to choose another image because the image you want doesn't display well at the resolution and they probably won't use it. Consider experimenting with different images until you find one that looks good at the smaller resolution. Viriditas (talk) 21:21, 23 January 2024 (UTC)

Also get rid of that "leading citizens" bit, as that will confuse the reviewer. Consider replacing it with just citizens, residents, or "leaders in the community" or something. Or you could leave it as it is and see how it goes. Viriditas (talk) 21:23, 23 January 2024 (UTC)

Did you know nomination

The following is an archived discussion of the DYK nomination of the article below. Please do not modify this page. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as this nomination's talk page, the article's talk page or Wikipedia talk:Did you know), unless there is consensus to re-open the discussion at this page. No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was: promoted by AirshipJungleman29 talk 23:53, 23 February 2024 (UTC)

(

• Comment or view
• Article history

)

Gasparilla Pirate Boat Float

• ... that during the annual Gasparilla Pirate Festival (pictured), leading citizens of Tampa, Florida, dress up like pirates and hold a victory parade after "invading" the town in their pirate ship? Source: https://www.abcactionnews.com/news/region-hillsborough/gasparilla-2024-everything-you-need-to-know-about-the-annual-pirate-fest
  • Reviewed: QPQ exempt
  • Comment: This annual event takes place this coming Saturday (Jan. 27) so it would be great if this DYK item appeared on that date.

Improved to Good Article status by Zeng8r (talk). Self-nominated at 20:42, 23 January 2024 (UTC). Post-promotion hook changes for this nom will be logged at Template talk:Did you know nominations/Gasparilla Pirate Festival; consider watching this nomination, if it is successful, until the hook appears on the Main Page.

Tampa Bay Buccaneers pirate ship (for ALT2)

• Zeng8r Recent GA (1-21-23) so the article qualifies for DYK. There are probably more hooks from sentences like this "Crowd size for the Parade of Pirates is typically about 300,000, making it one of the largest annual parades in the United States." I have trouble connecting all the events contained in ALT0. I cannot confirm that "leading citizens of Tampa, Florida dress up like pirates and hold a victory parade after invading the town in their pirate ship". So if you want that hook you will need to show me where those words appear in the article cited.
  The rest of the article is cited with references and it is neutral. No QPQ is required. The image is free and I do not find evidence of plagiarism in the article. I am surprised that a GA has so many citations in the lead see MOS:LEADCITE. The information is repeated in the article so I think that the lead citations are not needed. Pinging Viriditas as I came here from DYK talk at their urging. Bruxton (talk) 01:53, 24 January 2024 (UTC)

• Comment. I agree; good review. I hope Zeng8r finds time to respond. Viriditas (talk) 07:47, 24 January 2024 (UTC)

• ALT1: ... that since 1904, the Gasparilla Pirate Festival (pictured) in Tampa, Florida has featured a pirate themed parade?
• ALT2: ... that the annual Gasparilla Pirate Festival (pictured) inspired the Tampa Bay Buccaneers to install a pirate ship in their stadium?

I see that this wasn't approved in time for yesterday's Gasparilla Day. Not sure why the original hook wasn't acceptable, as it's a one-sentence summary of the event that's paraphrased in pretty much every one of the 80+ article citations, but whatever. The suggested alternatives are fine and it's still Gasparilla season so it's not too late to make this a DYK item. ADDENDUM: Here's another idea: the Outbound Voyage is the culminating event of the Gasparilla Season and will take place on March 2 this year. The DYK hook could refer to that item and run on that date. Zeng8r (talk) 16:14, 28 January 2024 (UTC)

There were too many moving parts to get this to the main page in a three day window. March 2 should work. see discussion Bruxton (talk) 21:05, 28 January 2024 (UTC)

Oh, thanks, I had not seen the primary discussion on this. Zeng8r (talk) 01:07, 29 January 2024 (UTC)

I designed the hooks and the nominator approved but the hooks need a third editor to approve. Bruxton (talk) 22:39, 1 February 2024 (UTC)

Approving hooks Alt1 and Alt2. Article and alt hooks are in compliance with all DYK policies. I leave it to the promoter to decide which of the two alt hooks to promote. Likewise on both images which are both properly licensed. 4meter4 (talk) 23:46, 22 February 2024 (UTC)