Talk:Electrical wiring in North America

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This article was nominated for deletion on 9 February 2008. The result of the discussion was keep.

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North America?

North America is comprised of three major countries, Canada, United States, and Mexico (minor countries include Bermuda). This article talks about Canada and the United States only, therefore it should be renamed to "Electrical wiring in the United States and Canada." — Preceding unsigned comment added by 177.82.12.47 (talk) 14:58, 28 January 2014 (UTC)

Comment

With the last comment from January, I'm going to assume the development mentioned in the article block is done or stalled, and go ahead and start editing. --Robmonk 04:22, 27 April 2006 (UTC)

Voltage and cable size

what voltage is that dc distribution you mentioned. Cable gauge has nothing to do with DC or AC just with expected current

I'm not really sure about the physics behind it but DC looses "energy" as it travels along a wire more than AC. Purhaps it generates more heat? I know the use of alternating current is what made centralized electrical generation possible. Edison sold DC generators to individuals before AC generators were used at central generating stations. Gbleem 20:32, 19 Sep 2004 (UTC)

well the first part of that is BS indeed dc often loses less under the same wiring conditions and at the same voltage as is mentioned in the article HVDC. The problem with DC is its hard to convert voltage (near impossible in edisons day not too hard with modern SMPSU technology). Practical off grid DC systems may run at lower voltages and hence need larger wires but the generalisation in the article is meaningless on

gbleem is right, but for all the wrong reasons. Consider a 120W load in a 120V circut and a 12V circuit, through wires that have 1 ohms of resistance. The 120V circuit will deliver 1A. 1A across 1 ohms means it drops 1V due to the resistance of the supply lines. 119V shows up at the load. No biggie. Now consider 12V. That's 10A. 10A across 1 ohm is a 10V drop, and your 12V supply now suddenly is a 2V supply, and nothing works. It's not a matter of DC vs AC. It's a matter of 120V supply vs 12V. This is the same reason that power gets stepped up to 100,000 volts to go miles and miles from the power plant. If it didn't, you'd need wires the size of trees to keep from dropping voltage. Twredfish 02:13, 18 January 2006 (UTC)

Points are contriductory

the following points are contriductory

1. minimum 14 gauge wire, solid for 15 amp circuits (some local codes require a minimum of 12 gauge for 15 amp circuits, except for switch legs - that is, circuit portions that are strictly between a light switch and the light that it serves; stranded may also be used, and is of greater ampacity, but is more expensive and requires slightly different techniques)
2. all wiring in a circuit except for the leads that are part of a device or fixture must be the same gauge.

i don't live in the us so i don't know about your codes but this article seems very vague and in at least one place self contridictory--Plugwash 11:34, 17 Sep 2004 (UTC)

The part about using a different guage for switch legs refers to local codes which sometimes contradict the NEC. Usually a locality will adopt the NEC codes and then add a few exceptions. The NEC requires all wire in the same circuit to be the same gauge. Gbleem 20:23, 19 Sep 2004 (UTC)

Comments about moving page

also this page is in dire need of deamericanisation i think this article should be moved to another name like north american electrical wiring (i think practices are very similar in the USA and canada) and then general information should be moved back to the electrical wiring page. if there are no objections to this in the next few days then i :It looks like the move was already done, although incorrectly to (US) instead of (U.S.) as is preferred. I fixed that. Much of the content of this article is a discourse on the NEC which has its own article. I think I'll thin that stuff down, and broaden the article a bit. --Theodore Kloba 19:09, Dec 17, 2004 (UTC)

Redirect

I have removed the redirect from Talk:Electrical wiring to here. If you posted comments above that really belong there, feel free to move them, so this talkheader can concentrate on issues relating to the U.S. article. --Theodore Kloba 19:33, Dec 17, 2004 (UTC)

Spelling

Have updated the spelling within a link, but there is still a discrepancy in the terminologies! Was: arc fault interuptor (sic, with one "r"!), but article to which it links is entitled "Arc-fault circuit interruptEr" (i.e., with hyphenated "arc-fault" and misspelled interruptor (as is used in the "Ground-fault circuit interruptor" link, which itself redirects to "Residual-current device"). All bit of a mess! Eilthireach 18:59, 11 May 2005 (UTC)

SEU & SER

Could someone please add a discussion on service entrance cables and define SEU and SER? Thanks!!

Conduit

There should be a mention of the difference in areas that use electrical conduit such as EMT pipe, BX etc. and those that use NM such as Romex. I know Romex is used in most of the US, but pipe and BX are used around here where I live. (Hammond, Indiana) and the Chicago area. --Kalmia 04:37, 7 October 2006 (UTC)

AFCIs

This article needs to be updated to include references to AFCIs and combination AFCI/GFCIs.

Atlant 19:27, 11 December 2006 (UTC)

Broken link

The link The NEC at NFPA.org at the bottom is broken.

129.79.195.29 22:12, 4 January 2007 (UTC)

Salvageable article

Please don't add any more tags suggesting deletion of this article without a very good explanation. It is at least as encyclopedia-worthy as many other articles here. It's about a *real* subject, not just some throw-away background item in some interminable chain of epic novels. It is reasearchable. The topic of electrical wiring in the United States is of interest especially if contrasted to wiring methods elsewhere, and especially if some of the rationale for the wiring practices is given. --Wtshymanski (talk) 18:07, 10 February 2008 (UTC)

scope?

This article appears to focus on residential wiring. Should its title be changed to "Residential wiring (United States)" ? -- Mikeblas (talk) 00:53, 11 February 2008 (UTC)

I think we can usefully broaden the scope to cover industrial and commercial wiring - provided an admin doesn't delete the article first. The problem with the focus is that few contributors know about industrial, overhead, etc. systems where as everyone has a copy of "The Dummy's Guide to House Wiring" and watched an uncle wire a light switch once. --Wtshymanski (talk) 02:38, 12 February 2008 (UTC)

References

You know, just how many references does an article need? To some extent every article relies on a subject matter expert paraphrasing what he/she knows and summarizing it, often without a particular reference in mind at all. We really shouldn't demand every sentence have a reference if the sentences are generally describing things well-known to those familiar with the subject. My goodness, the History of England article only has one reference...does anyone seriously doubt that Vikings existed and invaded coastal English villages? I know, I know, this is Wikipedia, where credentials mean nothing, and if enough teenagers raised on TV contribute somehow the result will be a reliable and authoritative encyclopedia. --Wtshymanski (talk) 02:38, 12 February 2008 (UTC)

Your questions are answered at WP:V and WP:RS. -- Mikeblas (talk) 05:49, 17 February 2008 (UTC)

Edit

Original edit returned to original. Link to Split_phase page added for description of US electrical system added to Leg paragraph of Terminology section QuietJohn (talk) 00:12, 11 February 2010 (UTC)

Suggest merge of wire types

Since each of the THHN, THWN, XHHW articles are a one-line definition followed by the same discussion of wire type standards, perhaps they could be usefully merged to one section here. It would save a lot of repetitive explanation and put each wire type in some kind of context. --Wtshymanski (talk) 17:50, 17 April 2011 (UTC)

done. --Wtshymanski (talk) 18:11, 17 October 2011 (UTC)

Needs a better picture

Wrapping switches with tape is a DIY stunt, professional electricians don't do that (if the box is too small for the wiring devices without tape on them, the box is too small). And I wish we didn't show the white wires landing on the switches, either - they should at least be taped, but should have been some other color than white. --Wtshymanski (talk) 18:09, 17 October 2011 (UTC)

As I think you know there are several more Oh my God! issues in the work shown in this photo. While WP is not a DIY, IMHO [and here my puny efforts to insert all-caps shorthand poop out] neither should it casually depict things people absolutely should not be doing. It's as if the appendectomy article had a photo captioned, Man takes out child's appendix on dining-room table. A real doctor would use surgical instruments instead of kitchen knives, as if that were the only problem. I'm therefore removing it. EEng (talk) 14:34, 20 April 2013 (UTC)

Keep in mind that the US is only one of about 23 countries in North America, ditto for its codes and practices. Also the tape thing may be a POV of folks in the trades. If someone has an old tight junction box, they would rather the homeowner pay them $500 to bust the wall open and put a bigger box in than to tape the switch/outlet. North8000 (talk) 12:01, 21 April 2013 (UTC)

As a bare minimum an installation depicted should make sense under the codes and practices of some jurisdiction; this image shows Leviton devices bearing a UL listing, so presumably it's in the US, where it would not pass muster. This is not a "tight old junction box" but new work by an incompetent. In the US, fires of electrical origin constitute about 8% of fires in single-family homes, but only 2% of fires in apartments. Many reasons combine to make this so, but a big factor is that work in single-family dwellings is much more likely to be done by untrained persons who don't appreciate the dangers. It's not WP's job to improve this situation but we shouldn't be holding it up as an example either. For the record I am not in the trades (though I learned from my grandfather, who was) and do my own work (and have it inspected). EEng (talk) 16:04, 21 April 2013 (UTC)

I scoured Flicker for CC licensed photos that might be usable for this article and others. Here are the ones I found. Maybe someone with more knowledge them I might review them first for suitability before they are uploaded to commons:

• http://www.flickr.com/photos/vxla/5779486234/ complex equipment panel ?? That's the inside of a traffic-signal control -- could be used to illustrate special-purpose applications not normally seen EEng (talk)
• http://www.flickr.com/photos/scottbb/202290783/ junction box OO Not a junction box but a distribution panel for one apartment in a multiunit building, done by someone awful compulsive. EEng (talk)
• http://www.flickr.com/photos/ifl/5397919963/ india? XX Wherever it was, it's a heap of smoldering rubble by now. EEng (talk)
• http://www.flickr.com/photos/elisfanclub/4199110024/ antarctica (more) XX Hmmmm... What code do they use at the S. Pole? EEng (talk)
• http://www.flickr.com/photos/ddfic/456837587/ wall box OO Fine EEng (talk)
• http://www.flickr.com/photos/vax-o-matic/3808917726/ power xfmr  ?? Wind-power generator and associated equipt -- in some article on special wiring for photovoltaics, windpower, etc., maybe EEng (talk)
• http://www.flickr.com/photos/davef3138/3573715363/ clean panel with 2 wire nuts XX more realistic than the thing of beauty above, but not so happy with the yellow tape EEng (talk)
• http://www.flickr.com/photos/davef3138/3573728763/ outside breaker box XX I'm guessing this is for a hot-tub or aboveground pool and without going into details there's something not right about it EEng (talk)
• http://www.flickr.com/photos/usfwspacific/5857280745/ Electricians installing panel X More about workers than the work EEng (talk)
• http://www.flickr.com/photos/zombieite/8480752368/ wire nut but in a car OO For wirenut article this would be fine, since it's not specific to structures EEng (talk)
• http://www.flickr.com/photos/johncarljohnson/324362723/ switch box and breaker panel XX Awkward perspective EEng (talk)

--agr (talk) 23:55, 21 April 2013 (UTC)

Don't want to pass myself off as the big expert (I know a lot more than I made it sound like in earlier posts -- think about what EEng might stand for -- though a different area of EE than this one) but my comments are given above. EEng (talk) 01:19, 22 April 2013 (UTC)

My comment was made just to nudge things a bit in our approach to this. You are doing good work and are on the right track. North8000 (talk) 11:51, 22 April 2013 (UTC)

On the subject of varying codes, I don't know of any that ban tape, but there are many local codes in the US which ban Romex. North8000 (talk) 11:58, 22 April 2013 (UTC)

It's not a matter of tape being banned, but all codes have a catchall requirement that installations be done in a "neat and workmanlike manner" or somesuch. Tape around devices (to insulate their side terminals) implies you don't really believe they won't touch after you shove them forcefully into this overcrowded box, in which simultaneously some wires were cut too long, some too short, puzzling combinations of colors are connected, and so on. You have to serve an apprenticeship before working on your own for a reason -- there are many, many little things you need to know about how things are done which the Code doesn't attempt to cover. EEng (talk) 12:25, 22 April 2013 (UTC)

Well, I think in real life we'd have a few friendly debates, but nice work on the article! Sincerely, North8000 (talk) 18:03, 22 April 2013 (UTC)

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"Comparison of US practices with other countries" Doesn't Compare Anything

The "Comparison of US practices with other countries" section *talks* about US practices, but doesn't compare them to other countries. From reading it, you have no idea how other countries may or may not be different from what's described in the US. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 209.179.83.17 (talk) 03:52, 15 November 2015 (UTC)

Mexico

How is wiring done in Mexico? --Wtshymanski (talk) 04:43, 23 December 2017 (UTC)

feeder

sirs thanks for the invite. Question today is how big wire am i required21:13, 9 March 2022 (UTC)Fortunz (talk) for a meter box with 3- 200 amp meters.

That is determined by the relevant laws/ codes at the location of the installation. North8000 (talk) 22:09, 9 March 2022 (UTC)

Mexico

A summary of regulations and practices in Mexico would be really interesting and valuable, and help with the English-language blinkers so often found in Wikipedia articles. --Wtshymanski (talk) 21:35, 20 May 2022 (UTC)