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@RCraig09: Nice work simplifying the captions! In this way technical notes are indeed not necessary. I think the caption and / or the map figure is a bit off or problematic. It now says that some areas have cooled, implying that we can see some type of trend in this figure. Pedantically, this is incorrect. We have a comparison of two snapshots, where the second one only covers a 5 year window. If you look at trends (with all data), most of the blue regions have actually warmed iirc. We need to find a better figure here that averages over a longer period. Femke Nijsse (talk) 09:48, 21 September 2019 (UTC)
Hot off the press. After much inspiration and even more perspiration, I boldly propose the figure at right to convey GW within the perspective of geologic time periods. Its graphics and caption are designed to emphasize—in quickly understandable terms—how unusual the current warming is. I think it should replace the current 1880-2018 chart that's at the top of the article. (The animated heat map should stay, so we would show AGW over both time and space.) Let me know your thoughts on the substance. Aside: now that I have the raw data, I can explore rate-of-change over time. —RCraig09 (talk) 22:14, 4 October 2019 (UTC)
over decades to millennia", it might be appropriate to show the longer term (800 millennia) background. Or not; I am undecided.
|upright=
to get a size slightly larger than the default "thumb" size; you might want to play around with that. ♦ J. Johnson (JJ) (talk) 21:00, 5 October 2019 (UTC)|upright=
to 1.2, where 1.3, or even 1.4, might be preferable), the titles and labels do need to be bigger to be readable. ♦ J. Johnson (JJ) (talk) 20:58, 6 October 2019 (UTC)Alrighty then! I've (essentially) combined Femke's 2,000-year chart with the existing 1880-2018 chart to show CurrentAGW in perspective. It's gray and black, with blue indicating cool and red indicating warm. I've used simple language in the captions; maybe sourcing would add weight to the captions. I hope you'll all continue to consider that a third (800,000-year) chart would best emphasize how unusual CurrentAGW is, but this compromise is better than nothing. +In view of my not finding an updated free-use causation/attribution chart anywhere, I've also added File:Climate Change Attribution.png to the top. In 2019, attribution/Causation is still critical. —RCraig09 (talk) 20:39, 8 October 2019 (UTC)
There has been a long unease on Wikipedia about the distinction between global warming and climate change. Bold proposals have been put forward, but no consensus was ever obtained for to rename global warming into climate change. I've launched a less bold proposal now: making climate change into a redirect to global warming and renaming that article. With the terminology of current climate change shifting from global warming to climate change, the confusion of our (somewhat arbitrary) distinction between the two terms is becoming larger. Feel free to participate in the discussion at Talk:Climate change#Renaming this article to solve confusion. Femke Nijsse (talk) 20:21, 9 October 2019 (UTC)
My goal: To find or create a graph that conveys the present rate of warming (slope of the temperature graph: bottom chart) compared to historical norms or historical extremes (even if not provably "unprecedented").
Background: I used the 800,000-year ice core data (used in the top chart) to study temperature rate-of-change issues. There are >5,800 ice core data points. There are >80 points for the most recent millennium, but only 2, 1 or even 0 data points for some of the oldest millennia. Therefore, to make the chart, I had my spreadsheet average the data points within each millennium to arrive at the 800 points for the top (purple) trace. To estimate millennial-average rate of change, I merely subtracted the (n-1)th value from the nth value; it's like a first derivate/slope.
Findings:
Conclusion: The current 15-20°C rate per millennium far surpasses the "maximum normal" millennium-average change (≤3.14°C), though it's uncertain if more extreme changes (>3.14°C/millennium) have occurred naturally.
Ideas needed: How can one show the exceptional nature of recent temperature growth? I've seen texts describing the temperature climb, but no really convincing graphics. I've considered simple bar charts showing the above comparisons, but they might approach WP:No original research. Does anyone have comments, critiques, ideas, suggestions, or specific links? —RCraig09 (talk) 20:41, 15 October 2019 (UTC)
Suggestion: Thanks for all the interest, but to avoid consuming your time, maybe we should wait for me to construct a particular chart—this one will take a couple of days. —RCraig09 (talk) 20:52, 17 October 2019 (UTC)
Discouraging update (for those interested): As noted above (and consistent with NASA and NOAA), the recent warming rates extrapolate to about 15°C/millennium (recent few decades) or 7°C/millennium (last 140-170 years). However, using the ice-core data sourcing the top chart of File:800,000-, 2,000-, 139-year global average temperature.png, I have since found that, in steep warming segments recovering from the most recent ice age, from ~17,400 to ~14,300 years ago the average rate was 2.4°C/millennium, and for ~12,500 to ~11,700 years ago the average rate was 5.6°C/millennium — not as dramatically different from recent decadal rises, especially considering "recent" rises were over shorter time spans. Plotting the different curves on a common graph is very messy and not very illuminating, so I've given up on that specific project. I have made a nice graph of ice-core-derived temperatures from 20,000 to 10,000 years ago (data points plotted at 20-year intervals; includes the recovery from most recent ice age), which I can upload on the chance it might become useful somewhere, somehow. which I have uploaded (shown at right). If you have thoughts or suggestions, enter them below. Thanks. —RCraig09 (talk) 20:52, 20 October 2019 (UTC) Adding image. —RCraig09 (talk) 06:08, 21 October 2019 (UTC)
I think we are about ready to implement an edit notice that advises editors of the citation standards applicable here. Any suggestions how that should be worded? ♦ J. Johnson (JJ) (talk) 22:56, 20 September 2019 (UTC)
That might work. I was thinking along the lines of: Per WP:CITEVAR: this article has established citation standards ("style") to which all edits should conform. See Talk:Global warming/Citation standards for details.
I don't want to say "reference" (as that would reinforce a bad usage), but I think a small "<ref>" icon might serve to indicate what this mainly about. I just spent half an hour searching, but couldn't find anything suitable. I may explore this further tonight. Or maybe just do text, with some kind of highlighting. ♦ J. Johnson (JJ) (talk) 20:00, 22 September 2019 (UTC)
I'm not entirely satisfied with either of our formulations, so still hoping for more suggestions or comments. (Edit notices are not as readily changeable as other templates, so it is preferable to try to get this good at the outset.) As a side matter: I haven't found a suitable icon (yet?). I can make one, but have forgotten how get a transparent background in svg format. A background task. ♦ J. Johnson (JJ) (talk) 20:06, 26 September 2019 (UTC)
This might work:
WP:CITEVAR caution: please see this article's established citation standards regarding the addition or modification of citations ("references").
And perhaps with a catchy "<ref>" icon. ♦ J. Johnson (JJ) (talk) 21:50, 6 October 2019 (UTC)
Content that violates any copyrights will be deleted", etc. ♦ J. Johnson (JJ) (talk) 23:35, 6 October 2019 (UTC)
Working with references? Please help us maintain the agreed citation standards for this page
NewsAndEventsGuy (talk) 10:33, 7 October 2019 (UTC)
content must be verifiable" could also be cast into your "
We would be really grateful" format – but it isn't.
Please help us ..." approach is that many editors are oblivious to that. As a case in point, just today Cosmicseeds has again added a full citation in a note, despite being previously advised/asked nicely multiple times (here) to not do so. It's fine with me if you want to take on persuading editors to comply, or to clean-up after them when they won't, and the current case would be a fine place to start. But lacking that, I think we need to state a little stronger that consistency with the standards is not 'entirely voluntary on your part and we are fine if you can't be bothered to do so'. ♦ J. Johnson (JJ) (talk) 22:13, 7 October 2019 (UTC)
Femke: what do you think about this:
Per WP:CITEVAR: before adding or modifying citations ("references") please see the citation standards established for this article.
Does that work for you? ♦ J. Johnson (JJ) (talk) 23:01, 13 October 2019 (UTC)
The citations for SRCCL (Climate Change and Land) are now available at WP:IPCC_citation/SR. As before these are for the "FINAL DRAFT" versions, which are still subject to "trickleback" and copy-editng, and of course the pagination won't be done until all that is finished. The author and editor lists are also yet to be finalized. When all that is finished and published I will update those citations.
I am about tackle implementation of the edit notice. I am also working on getting our missing "In"s in (there's a bit of resistance). ♦ J. Johnson (JJ) (talk) 22:32, 13 October 2019 (UTC)
And there's a new icon. ♦ J. Johnson (JJ) (talk) 20:48, 14 October 2019 (UTC)
Several months ago I had hoped to be done with the bulk of the citation work by now. But alas, it's not. (For the benefit of anyone looking back at this: we've all been largely occupied regarding the rename of "Climate change" to Climate change (general concept).) So, the work will continue into November. Eventually it will be substantially done. ♦ J. Johnson (JJ) (talk) 22:05, 31 October 2019 (UTC)
As discussed at #Peer review? above, I've rewritten the Global warming#History of the science section to show context, and avoid undue weight to false claims that the greenhouse effect was "discovered in 1856 by Eunice Newton Foote". Her research got very little attention until a 2011 paper proposed that other scientists had conspired to hide her research. As more recent sources show, her 1856 experiments used [glass] cylinders filled with different gases heated by sunlight, an apparatus which could not distinguish the infrared greenhouse effect. There's no evidence she was noticed by subsequent researchers, so even debunking the claim gives her attention which has to be balanced by showing at least some of those who are known to have influenced the science. At the same time, because sexism, it's worthy to give her a mention, so I've worked on that basis. Sources still to be added to match the citations, in particular Huddleston, Amara (17 July 2019). "Happy 200th birthday to Eunice Foote, hidden climate science pioneer". NOAA Climate.gov. Retrieved 8 October 2019., Calel, Raphael (19 February 2014). "The Founding Fathers v. The Climate Change Skeptics". The Public Domain Review. Retrieved 16 September 2019. {{cite web}}
: Invalid |ref=harv
(help) and Fleming, James Rodger (1998). Historical Perspectives on Climate Change. Oxford University Press. ISBN 978-0-19-507870-1. {{cite book}}
: Invalid |ref=harv
(help) . . . dave souza, talk 11:20, 11 October 2019 (UTC) (note: references now added. . . 19:43, 11 October 2019 (UTC))
@Dave souza: When do you reckon you have time to do this? Parallel to the naming discussion, I'd like to do the final touches in preparation for a long-postponed review. Imo, this is the only section in need of a big overhaul still. You might want to consider copying some of it to CC(GenCon), as it also touched upon other causes of change. Femke Nijsse (talk) 15:36, 8 November 2019 (UTC)
The way I have set up the IPCC citations has one little anomaly: because the editors of the work (i.e., the WG report) are not cited at the level of the chapter, the cs1|2 software omits the "in:" that signals that the chapter is part of a larger work. There is a simple way to fix that, which I have requested. But one editor does not like it, so has refused to make that change. I have worked long and hard to convince him, but no way. At this point matters are at a stand-off, and my request will just wither away unless others join in. So I put to everyone here that might want to make this article as good as possible: are the IPCC citations currently "good enough" without the normal and expected "in:"? Alternately, would any one join me in pushing for this fix? I think two or three additional voices might be enough to carry matter through. ♦ J. Johnson (JJ) (talk) 23:04, 20 November 2019 (UTC)
@François Robere and Cosmicseeds: in your recent edits did you two perhaps forget about our agreed upon Talk:Global_warming/Citation_standards? ♦ J. Johnson (JJ) (talk) 22:14, 29 November 2019 (UTC)
@Femkemilene: Re your last edit: are we abandoning our citation standards? If you won't set a good example how can we get anyone else to follow them? ♦ J. Johnson (JJ) (talk) 23:50, 8 December 2019 (UTC)
|ref=
, and only for periodicals. (The IPCC cites are prepackaged (just copy), and for the rest just set |ref=harv
.) But the important part is setting a good example, and if experienced editors like you and I don't can't be bothered with this then no one else will, and we might as well get used to crappy citations. Which rather undercuts trying for FA. ♦ J. Johnson (JJ) (talk) 23:45, 9 December 2019 (UTC)Seamless Wikipedia browsing. On steroids.
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