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I thought I should paste in an anonymous query I received about why I reversed an earlier edit to this page - and my reply - as they both relate to this article:
Any reason for removing the recently added section on talk page of history of Christianity in India?
Can you tell me genuinely that why did you remove that section from history of Christianity in India talk page? Was it in any way violating any Wikipedia rules? Or you are one of those fundamentalist Christians who want to prove Christianity reached India by 52 AD while there is no evidence for it?
And why should Tibet be free? Why not Alaska and Hawaii be free? You should know that days of western supremacy are now going down fast and there is no need for the non-western world to accept biased western point of view of looking at things. Time has come to question each and everything which western people have imposed on others. We also question American intervention in Vietnam, Afghanistan, Iraq, role of US govt in creating ISIS and atomic bombing of Hiroshima and Nagasaki because we do not believe the American story that it was necessary to stop the war because the war ended anyway.
Reply to Anonymous
- Dear Anonymous: First of all - I will mainly reply to the very critical note you added to the page Talk:Christianity in India - as I don't think it would be useful to argue about the many other issues you raise which seem to have little bearing on this article. I will discuss some of the reasons why I reversed your edit below.
- However, I do feel I must object to your totally unjustified attacks on me personally, and your unfounded assumptions - such as insinuating that I support "western supremacy" and that I might be a fundamentalist Christian - neither of which is true. In fact I have, since my youth, frequently argued against both "western supremacy" and so-called "fundamentalist Christainity" (in the sense of militant, puritanical Christianity) and, for that matter, similar extreme "fundamentalist" branches of other religions and political philosophies. But, most important here is the fact, that they are not in the least pertinent to the discussion of Christianity in India. So, please stop these rude, unjustified ad hominen attacks!
- Let us try to stay focussed. You called the tradition (or story or myth if you prefer)of St. Thomas coming to India , a "lie." These are harsh words indeed, and probably very hurtful to the Indian Christians who believe in them. Wikipedia is, I believe, not an apropriate place to attack people's religious beliefs. There is still a considerable community of believers of this tradition who live in Kerala, South India. See the WP article: Saint Thomas Christians for more details (and, again, you will find many references which you find interesting to check).
- Furthermore, your note was full of inaccuracies. To give just one example, you write: ". . . how is it believable that primitive Europeans of 1st century had such ships to reach India?" Unfortunately, you seem to be unaware of the facts of history. There was, by the 1st century CE, a major organised and regular maritime trade between Roman Egypt and India. This is absolutely firmly established - through numerous historical records and extensive archaeological evidence. The latter includes, amongst a mass of other evidence, many thousands of early Roman gold coins found in India - which back up the accounts in the literature of the time that the Romans traded gold and silver coins (and other products) with India for spices, and many other products, including even Chinese silks.
- For a start, I recommend you read the Wikipedia article Indo-Roman trade relations and check out some of the many excellent references given there. It may be of interest to you that the Chinese historical annals actually record the arrival of envoys from Da Qin (the Roman Empire) in China in 166 CE (or AD). See, for example: Book of the Later Han, and report that traders from the Roman Empire followed, and there is plenty of historical and archaeological evidence showing that ships from the Roman Empire were regualarly visiting India, Sri Lanka and SE Asia during the first two centuries CE. This shows your strange claim that "primitive Europeans" of the first century were incapable of reaching India by sea to be totally unfounded.
- So, Sir or Madam, please check your facts first before attacking others and, please, stop accusing me of promoting things I certainly don't believe in. I found your wild accusations not just unjustified and clearly false, but personally hurtful. I ask you to please apologise. Sincerely, John Hill (talk) 07:46, 29 November 2015 (UTC)
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The deliberate falsfications by two writers in 1890s were never part of Indian folklore or tradition. No RS says they are in any way relevant to Christianity in India. The text states: "Notovich confessed to fabricating his evidence." Bart D. Ehrman states that "Today there is not a single recognized scholar on the planet who has any doubts about the matter. The entire story was invented by Notovitch, who earned a good deal of money and a substantial amount of notoriety for his hoax" Hoaxters do not deserve 4850 bytes (about 700 scarce words) in Wikipedia space in a major article on a major topic--that's what they crave and why they fool people. Rjensen (talk) 19:28, 17 October 2016 (UTC)
- I wholeheartedly agree with you on this point. These hoaxes have absolutely nothing to do with the topic of this article, 'Christianity in India'. The Discoverer (talk) 04:01, 18 October 2016 (UTC)
- The section on "Jesus in India" was recently removed, with the arguments that it is a hoax, and that there are no reliable sources for it. Those are invalid arguments. There are plenty of sources which describe these stories. I've re-added it, and there seems to be agreement, at the moment, to include this section.
- I'd like to note, though, that the term "hoax" seems mispleced here. "Hoax" is a judgement, not a neutral description. Lewis, in his Legitimating New Religions, makes clear that legitimizing new religious ideas by incorporating them into existing religious narratives, is not uncommon. See, for a comparison, the Jewish and Christian Apocrypha (that's my note, not Lewis').
- That being said, I doubt if this section belongs to the "modern period" section. Strictly speaking, it's not about Christianity in India, but about New Religious Movements in the west, which were influenced by Indian thought. A very relevant theme in itself, but not exactly the same as the history of Christianity in India. Therefor, I've moved it downward. Joshua Jonathan -Let's talk! 06:10, 19 October 2016 (UTC)
- I agree with your line of thought when you say "Strictly speaking, it's not about Christianity in India". I have always felt that this topic did not fit in the 'History' section, and (if retained) would be more appropriate as a separate section at the end of the article (this is what you have done).
- Regarding the term 'hoax', I don't see why it is misplaced. Notovich's confession and Ehrman's statement quoted in the article seem to make it amply clear that it is a fact that these stories were made up. This means they are hoaxes, and I don't see any policy in Wikipedia which says that a hoax must not be called a hoax. If there was such a concept, Wikipedia wouldn't have had a category called 'Hoaxes'. I think something can be neutrally described as a hoax on Wikipedia, if it has been proven by reliable sources to have been made up. The Discoverer (talk) 18:27, 19 October 2016 (UTC)
- The term hoax is value-loaden. Maybe you can call one specific text a "hoax," but not a (new) tradition which believes in such narratives. Lewis (1993) gives the context for these narratives, and also explains that these 'new traditions' are not unique. As I already said above, the Jewish and Christian Apocrypha are similar phenomena. Also note that the term "hoax" is being used here by Ehrman in his book Forged: Writing in the Name of God—Why the Bible’s Authors Are Not Who We Think They Are. The reference is to chapter eight, Forgeries, Lies, Deceptions, and the Writings of the New Testament. Modern Forgeries, Lies, and Deceptions. So, he too refers to the ancientness of "hoaxes." Some might even argue that the resurrection story also could be called a "hoax"...
- The term narrative is not restricted to "true accounts", as stated in this edit-summaryon the contrary. From the Wiki-article on narrative: "A narrative or story is any report of connected events, real or imaginary, presented in a sequence of written or spoken words, and/or still or moving images."
- Therefor, at best, you can say that 'according to Ehrman' these stories are hoaxes, while according to Lewis they are narratives. But that would be undue for this article, I think. Therefor,
- "hoax" is "value ladden" is irrelevant. So is "narrative." Our job as editors is to report what the reliable secondary sources agree upon and they all agree it's a deliberate falsehood. "Hoax" it is an accurate statement and most important it is the consensus of scholars. The text does not in fact discuss a "new tradition" it discusses the books from two men in the 1890s. Yes there were ancient hoaxes too, but the ones at issue here were invented in the 1890s by specific men. Lots of narratives are true--but not these and when need to tell readers that. As for the Lewis book he makes clear these stories are faked: Novotovitch is spurious, anachronistic, "simply false" [Lewis p 77]. Ahmed invented all in his own imagination sats Lewis p 78. Rjensen (talk) 20:40, 19 October 2016 (UTC)
- If there is something in the Jewish or Christian Apocrypha that is a fabrication, then there is nothing to stop us from going to the respective article and saying that it is a fabrication. We can use the word 'narrative' when it is inconclusive if it is real or made up, to avoid making a judgement ourselves, but when it is clear that it is made up, then it is a hoax, and in this case, it is not us who are making a judgement. If a hoax gives rise to a new tradition, that does not give it immunity from being called a hoax. The Discoverer (talk) 04:44, 20 October 2016 (UTC)
- I agree with The Discoverer. On this business of "traditions": This article is ONLY about Christianity and its traditions. the traditions Lewis mentions are NOT part of Christianity (the text paraphrases Lewis: "Nevertheless this [Jesus] story is popular both among New Age believers and among Hindu teachers with western followers.") the Jesus story Lewis mentions has nothing to do with the 2 writers from the 1890s--it goes back centuries. In a nutshell, zero from this section actually deals with "Christianity in India." Rjensen (talk) 04:57, 20 October 2016 (UTC)
- If there is something in the Jewish or Christian Apocrypha that is a fabrication, then there is nothing to stop us from going to the respective article and saying that it is a fabrication. We can use the word 'narrative' when it is inconclusive if it is real or made up, to avoid making a judgement ourselves, but when it is clear that it is made up, then it is a hoax, and in this case, it is not us who are making a judgement. If a hoax gives rise to a new tradition, that does not give it immunity from being called a hoax. The Discoverer (talk) 04:44, 20 October 2016 (UTC)
- "hoax" is "value ladden" is irrelevant. So is "narrative." Our job as editors is to report what the reliable secondary sources agree upon and they all agree it's a deliberate falsehood. "Hoax" it is an accurate statement and most important it is the consensus of scholars. The text does not in fact discuss a "new tradition" it discusses the books from two men in the 1890s. Yes there were ancient hoaxes too, but the ones at issue here were invented in the 1890s by specific men. Lots of narratives are true--but not these and when need to tell readers that. As for the Lewis book he makes clear these stories are faked: Novotovitch is spurious, anachronistic, "simply false" [Lewis p 77]. Ahmed invented all in his own imagination sats Lewis p 78. Rjensen (talk) 20:40, 19 October 2016 (UTC)
Joshua Jonathan, it is a bit surprising to see that you deleted this text, saying that it is WP:OR and does not refer to Mirza Ghulam, while you want to retain an entire section that does not even refer to the topic of the article, 'Christianity in India'. The deleted text just compares the claims in this section to the modern scholarly consensus.
In addition, we should also discuss whether this section deserves to be in this article at all and whether it isn't a case of WP:UNDUE weight being given to these hoaxes The Discoverer (talk) 05:51, 20 October 2016 (UTC)
- Apparently, an editor made the comparison; yes, that's OR. And a point that may be relevant for Christian believers, but misses the relevancy of how new traditions develop. As I said before, the stories may be called hoaxes, but the existence of this 'new tradition' is a simple fact. Personally, I think it's nonsense, but the fact that people believe this is relevant, in certain contexts. Which is not here, for which reason I've removed the entire section and replaced it with a "See also" link. I think we'll all three have got better things to do then investing our time in a debate on "hoax" versus "narrative" (although Lewis uses the term "narrative"). Joshua Jonathan -Let's talk! 06:17, 20 October 2016 (UTC)
- You're right, I think it's best that this topic be dealt with separately in more appropriate article, where it can be treated in a more NPOV and balanced manner. Regards, The Discoverer (talk) 06:23, 20 October 2016 (UTC)
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There are several issues with the new image "File:INDIAN CHRISTIANITY.jpg" added to the article yesterday by User:Jinsonkmathew.
- The image is not neutral, because it shows the progression of a "Malankara Sabha" down the years as a thick line in the centre. This would give one the impression that this "Malankara Sabha" is the origin of all Indian Christians, and even today is the mainstay of Indian Christianity. I don't know what "Malankara Sabha" refers to exactly, or whether it is a denomination of Christianity, and it is not even mentioned once in the text of the article. Thus, this is an instance of undue weight given to a topic that is not mentioned in the article. All denominations should be represented by lines of equal width.
- Roman Catholicism, which comprises around 72% of the Christians in India is shown as a red box lost in a corner of the image.
- The arrows in the image don't make much sense. E.g. the images going into and out of the red box representing the Roman Catholic church seem to imply that the Roman Catholic church originated from the 1653 Koonan cross oath, and the Roman Catholic church gave rise to the "East Syrian church".
- There are grammatical mistakes like Jesus Christ and India not being capitalised, and "misiion" is misspelt.
- There is already an image File:SaintThomasChristian'sDivisionsHistoryFinal.png used in the article that shows the evolution of St. Thomas Christians.
In view of the above, I suggest that the image "INDIAN CHRISTIANITY.jpg" be removed from the article until there is consensus on the inclusion of this image, and the issues are resolved.
The Discoverer (talk) 18:57, 3 August 2017 (UTC)
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