Talk:Central Synagogue (Manhattan)

Central Synagogue (Manhattan) has been listed as one of the Art and architecture good articles under the good article criteria. If you can improve it further, please do so. If it no longer meets these criteria, you can reassess it. Review: July 15, 2024. (Reviewed version).

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A fact from Central Synagogue (Manhattan) appeared on Wikipedia's Main Page in the Did you know column on 27 May 2024 (check views). The text of the entry was as follows: Did you know... that New York City's Central Synagogue (pictured) has hosted churches and a mosque? A record of the entry may be seen at Wikipedia:Recent additions/2024/May. The nomination discussion and review may be seen at Template:Did you know nominations/Central Synagogue (Manhattan).

Central Synagogue, New York?

Just wondering about the need (?) for disambiguation?

• Central Synagogue of Aleppo
• Central Synagogue, Sydney
• old Central Synagogue, Moscow in Soviet days = now Moscow Choral Synagogue, correct?

In ictu oculi (talk) 10:42, 26 September 2011 (UTC)

Also

• Birmingham Central Synagogue
• Yeshurun Central Synagogue

--ELEKHH^T 12:36, 13 April 2012 (UTC) -and London, and most major cities, I dare say. Johnbod (talk) 11:19, 24 May 2015 (UTC)

Ely Jacques Kahn

"After a fire in 1886, the building was restored by Ely Jacques Kahn.[3"

Kind of hard to do if Ely Jacques Kahn was born in 1884. He worked on the synagogue in 1946 according to his own page. Angecope (talk) 01:56, 17 January 2020 (UTC)

Did you know nomination

The following is an archived discussion of the DYK nomination of the article below. Please do not modify this page. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as this nomination's talk page, the article's talk page or Wikipedia talk:Did you know), unless there is consensus to re-open the discussion at this page. No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was: promoted by AirshipJungleman29 talk 21:23, 17 May 2024 (UTC)

(

• Comment or view
• Article history

)

Central Synagogue

• ... that the roof of New York City's Central Synagogue was rebuilt using surveillance photographs? Source: Barista, Dave (December 2001). "Tradition restored". Building Design & Construction. Vol. 42, no. 12. p. 24.
  • ALT1: ... that New York City's Central Synagogue is topped by onions? Source: Prial, Dunstan (September 16, 2001). "Central Synagogue in New York City reopened". Jerusalem Post. Associated Press. p. 7.
  • ALT2: ... that New York City's Central Synagogue is topped by onion-shaped domes? Source: Prial, Dunstan (September 16, 2001). "Central Synagogue in New York City reopened". Jerusalem Post. Associated Press. p. 7.
  • ALT3: ... that New York City's Central Synagogue has hosted churches and a mosque? Source: Multiple in article
  • ALT4: ... that the design of New York City's Central Synagogue was intended to allude to the history of Jews in Muslim countries? Source: Sachs, Susan (August 29, 1998). "A Living History of American Judaism". The New York Times.
  • ALT5: ... that Central Synagogue has been continuously used by a congregation for longer than any other synagogue in New York City? Source: Jackson, Kenneth T., ed. (2010). The Encyclopedia of New York City (2nd ed.). New Haven: Yale University Press. p. 226.
  • Reviewed: Template:Did you know nominations/Tad's Steaks
  • Comment: More hook suggestions would be appreciated.

5x expanded by Epicgenius (talk).

Number of QPQs required: 1. Nominator has 652 past nominations.

Post-promotion hook changes will be logged on the talk page; consider watching the nomination until the hook appears on the Main Page.

Epicgenius (talk) 14:34, 2 May 2024 (UTC).

Substantial interesting article, on its way to FA I assume, on plenty of sources, offline sources accepted AGF. The image is licensed and says better what ALTs 1 and 2 say. The original hook is nothing specific to this treasure. My favourite is ALT3. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 07:37, 10 May 2024 (UTC)

Map in Czech Serbian?

For some reason, the NRHP map displays captions in a Slavic language (I think Czech?), so that (for example) Columbus Circle displays as "Kolambus Serkl" and Hell's Kitchen is "Hels Kičen". The same problem arises on WikiData, and I suspect originates there. I'm not sure how to fix this, so that the map labels are in English here on en.wiki. Bernanke's Crossbow (talk) 05:30, 27 May 2024 (UTC)

@Bernanke's Crossbow: Thanks for bringing this up. Re. the map: it is displaying in Serbian due to an OpenStreetMap bug. There is more information about this bug at Wikipedia:Village pump (technical)/Archive 212#Serbian place names displayed on Manhattan maps, phab:T230013, and phab:T195318. Basically, the Serbian Latin-script text is overriding other Latin texts including English, and this issue can only be fixed on OpenStreetMap itself. Even more strangely, when looking at the OSM website directly, the neighborhood names are correctly displayed in English; this bug only exists on Wikimedia maps that use OSM data.

This has been an issue for at least a month now, and I have no idea how to fix the bug over at OSM, but hopefully this gets resolved soon. Epicgenius (talk) 14:29, 29 May 2024 (UTC)

Copy changes

Lead

• The building, designed by Henry Fernbach in the Moorish Revival style, is a New York City designated landmark and a National Historic Landmark. – Designed by Henry Fernbach in the Moorish Revival style, the synagogue is a New York City designated landmark and a National Historic Landmark.
  • Done. Epicgenius (talk) 14:00, 11 July 2024 (UTC)
• A vestibule leads to the synagogue's sanctuary, a two-level space arranged in a similar manner to a Gothic church, and there are various rooms in the basement. – A vestibule leads to the synagogue's sanctuary – a two-level space arranged similarly to a Gothic church, with various rooms in the basement.
  • Done. Epicgenius (talk) 14:00, 11 July 2024 (UTC)
• There is a community house across 55th Street, which contains the synagogue's religious school and numerous groups. – A community house across 55th Street contains/hosts the synagogue's religious school and numerous groups.
  • Done. Epicgenius (talk) 14:00, 11 July 2024 (UTC)

Early history

• was originally built for Ahawath Chesed as that congregation's fifth building. – was originally built as Ahawath Chesed's fifth building.
  • Done. Epicgenius (talk) 14:00, 11 July 2024 (UTC)
• and Lilienthal departed in 1847 – would just say "left in 1847"
  • Done. Epicgenius (talk) 14:00, 11 July 2024 (UTC)
• at 69 Ludlow Street, on the Lower East Side of Manhattan. – remove comma
  • Done. Epicgenius (talk) 14:00, 11 July 2024 (UTC)
• Following the arrival of additional Bohemian Jews to the U.S. – "more Bohemian Jews..."
  • Done. Epicgenius (talk) 14:00, 11 July 2024 (UTC)
• Just remember to add inflation values (e.g. $58.32 and one-half cent, $100)
  • I will do this shortly. Epicgenius (talk) 14:00, 11 July 2024 (UTC)
• which many of the congregants – "of the" is unnecessary
  • Done. Epicgenius (talk) 14:00, 11 July 2024 (UTC)
• moved to the Eleventh Presbyterian Church,[32] at the – , located at the...
  • Done. Epicgenius (talk) 14:00, 11 July 2024 (UTC)
• —though not those in banking or mercantile trades, who instead joined Congregation Emanu-El of New York. – personally felt this isn't really as relevant here, but it's fine.
  • Done. Epicgenius (talk) 14:00, 11 July 2024 (UTC)
• voted to establish a committee to acquire a new building. – voted to establish a committee for the acquisition of a new building.
  • Done. Epicgenius (talk) 14:00, 11 July 2024 (UTC)
• may have wanted – is it something uncertain and what the original source thinks?
  • I rephrased itm as this was something uncertain. Epicgenius (talk) 14:00, 11 July 2024 (UTC)
• that congregants would choose to leave – ...congregants would leave
  • Done. Epicgenius (talk) 14:00, 11 July 2024 (UTC)
• Kohut's views were more conservative than Huebsch's had been – remove "had been"
  • Done. Epicgenius (talk) 14:00, 11 July 2024 (UTC)
• although Kohut gave sermons – although he.... From the first clause it's clear who is giving sermons
  • Done. Epicgenius (talk) 14:00, 11 July 2024 (UTC)
• The descendants of Jewish immigrants were increasingly speaking English. – More descendants of Jewish immigrants were English-speaking.
  • Done. Epicgenius (talk) 14:00, 11 July 2024 (UTC)
• It took two years for Ahawath Chesed to hire – Ahawath Chese took two years to hire...
  • Done. Epicgenius (talk) 14:00, 11 July 2024 (UTC)
• Davidson resigned in 1899,[110] in part because he had been against the congregations' merger. – Davidson resigned in 1889 partly due to his opposition to the congregations' merger.
  • Done. Epicgenius (talk) 14:00, 11 July 2024 (UTC)
• to begin keeping – to keep...
  • Done. Epicgenius (talk) 14:00, 11 July 2024 (UTC)

More comments to come.--ZKang123 (talk) 03:10, 9 July 2024 (UTC)

Thanks for taking up the review. I've addressed all of the above so far. – Epicgenius (talk) 22:55, 9 July 2024 (UTC)

Combined congregation

• After Davidson's resignation, the trustees of Ahawath Chesed Shaar Hashomayim searched for a bilingual rabbi,[25][111] a process which took a year. – After Davidson's resignation, the trustees of Ahawath Chesed Shaar Hashomayim took a year to search for a bilingual rabbi.
  • Done. Epicgenius (talk) 14:00, 11 July 2024 (UTC)
• agreed to begin using the – agreed to using..
  • I went with "agreed to use". Epicgenius (talk) 14:00, 11 July 2024 (UTC)
• in mid-1917, at which point the congregation had 900 members. – in mid-1917 when the congregation had (grown to) 900 members.
  • Done. Epicgenius (talk) 14:00, 11 July 2024 (UTC)
• The congregation's trustees selected, as their next senior rabbi, Nathan Krass, – The congregation's trustees selected Nathan Krass as their next senior rabbi...
  • Done. Epicgenius (talk) 14:00, 11 July 2024 (UTC)
• The new name was intended to attract worshippers, both because of its location, and because the fact that the name was in English was supposed to reflect the congregation's Reform roots – The new English name, reflecting the congregation's Reform roots, and its location was intended to attract worshippers.
  • I went with a slightly different wording. Epicgenius (talk) 14:00, 11 July 2024 (UTC)
• The congregation also introduced revised bylaws in 1918, forming a governing council. – The congregation also introduced revised bylaws and formed a governing council in 1918.
  • Done. Epicgenius (talk) 14:00, 11 July 2024 (UTC)
• By the early 1920s, the synagogue building could not adequately accommodate many social functions and classes. This left it at a disadvantage compared with many newer synagogues, where there were community centers to attract younger, less religious generations. – By the early 1920s, the synagogue could not adequately accommodate social functions and classes, putting it at a disadvantage compared to newer synagogues with community centers that attracted younger, less religious generations.
  • Done. Epicgenius (talk) 14:00, 11 July 2024 (UTC)
• Cen­tral and Free Syn­agogues. – from my understanding about this paragraph, this merger lasted at most a year?
  • It lasted for about two years (May 1923 to May 1925). I've clarified this now. Epicgenius (talk) 14:00, 11 July 2024 (UTC)
• The synagogue also temporarily hosted the Rock Pentecostal congregation during 1943, while the latter congregation developed a church for itself. – In 1943, the synagogue also temporarily hosted the Rock Pentecostal congregation, which developed a church for itself.
  • I went with a slightly different wording. Epicgenius (talk) 14:00, 11 July 2024 (UTC)
• The project had cost $270,000 in total. – remove "had"
  • Done. Epicgenius (talk) 14:00, 11 July 2024 (UTC)
• restore some stained-glass windows – restore some of the...
  • Done. Epicgenius (talk) 14:00, 11 July 2024 (UTC)
• To make way for the community house, the congregation had to destroy three houses on 55th Street. – Three houses on 55th Street were demolished to make way for/to construct the community house.
  • Done. Epicgenius (talk) 14:00, 11 July 2024 (UTC)
• had an endowment fund with $10 million – had an endowment fund of $10 million
  • Done. Epicgenius (talk) 14:00, 11 July 2024 (UTC)
• United States' largest Jewish congregations, with 4,000 people. – remove comma
  • Done. Epicgenius (talk) 14:00, 11 July 2024 (UTC)
• ubinstein said that, in the three years following the fire, 400 families had joined the congregation, for a total of 1,700 families by 2001. – From my understanding is it 400 more families joined the congregation such that the total is 1700? If so, I might say ...400 families had joined the congregation, bringing the total to 1,700 by 2001.
  • Yes, this is correct. Epicgenius (talk) 14:00, 11 July 2024 (UTC)

More comments to come.--ZKang123 (talk) 02:24, 11 July 2024 (UTC)

Building

• Fernbach, who also constructed structures for Jewish and secular institutions. – I would mention some examples, specifically aforementioned Jewish institutions. Also I think there should be an alternative term for "constructed" given it's unlikely he constructed the structures himself. Maybe who was also the architect of...
  • I have done both of these. Epicgenius (talk) 17:55, 14 July 2024 (UTC)
• A contemporary work – Which contemporary work (as mentioned by the two sources cited)?
  • I've clarified this. Epicgenius (talk) 17:55, 14 July 2024 (UTC)
• By the end of the 20th century, it was believed to be the state's oldest synagogue in continuous operation. – would attribute to the New York Times. I.e. According to The New York Times, it is the state's oldest synagogue in continuous operation.
  • I've reworded this, albeit with a slightly different wording. Epicgenius (talk) 17:55, 14 July 2024 (UTC)
• Might also try combine the above sentence with the subsequent statement since they discuss something similar about having a continuous congregation in attendance as well.
  • Done. Epicgenius (talk) 17:55, 14 July 2024 (UTC)
• The site measures 100 by 140 feet (30 by 43 m) across, with the longer dimension along 55th Street.[300] Contemporary sources from the building's construction described the synagogue as measuring 93 feet (28 m) wide on Lexington Avenue and 140 feet (43 m) on 55th Street. – Was initially confused by the repetition of the facts then I figured: The synagogue didn't occupy the entire site designated 100 by 140 ft. Though I might try combine the facts.
  • Done. Epicgenius (talk) 17:55, 14 July 2024 (UTC)
• The current lanterns are replicas,[302] which date from 1989. – The current lanterns are replicas installed in 1989. or something to that effect. "Dating from 1989" is a bit odd as though the replicas are that old or historical.
  • Done. Epicgenius (talk) 17:55, 14 July 2024 (UTC)
• This is because the congregation wanted that land lot, but they also wanted to have the building's main entrance on Lexington Avenue. – This was because the congregation wanted that land lot with the building's main entrance on Lexington Avenue.
  • Done. Epicgenius (talk) 17:55, 14 July 2024 (UTC)
• The exterior is dominated by two octagonal towers,[40] which measure 112 feet (34 m) tall. – The exterior is dominated by two 112-ft tall octagonal towers.
  • Done. Epicgenius (talk) 17:55, 14 July 2024 (UTC)
• The tops of the domes, described in the Associated Press and Architectural Record as "onion-shaped", are decorated with gilded bands. – Personally think given two sources mentioned it, I don't think it's necessary to attribute unless it's contradicted by other sources or if there are other terms to describe the domes. Also the comparison is clear from other images. The tops of the onion-shaped domes are decorated with glided bands.
  • Done. Epicgenius (talk) 17:55, 14 July 2024 (UTC)
• The roof is made of slate and is covered in gray and red shingles.[251][256][257] The roof measures 99 by 140 feet (30 by 43 m) across and has over 30,000 shingles. – The slate roof, measuring 99 by 140 feet (30 by 43 m), is covered in 30,000 shingles in gray and red.
  • Done. Epicgenius (talk) 17:55, 14 July 2024 (UTC)
• is a nearly exact replica of the original roof – remove "roof".
  • Done. Epicgenius (talk) 17:55, 14 July 2024 (UTC)
• manufactured in 2001 by the English firm – wonder if there's a mention of said English firm. It would be notable if it still exists
  • Unfortunately, the sources didn't mention which company manufactured the tiles. Epicgenius (talk) 17:55, 14 July 2024 (UTC)
• Prior to 2001, the synagogue did not have any air conditioning. – Would write in the positive like saying: After 2001, air-conditioning is installed in the synagogue.
  • Done. Epicgenius (talk) 17:55, 14 July 2024 (UTC)
• There were originally two sets of stairs inside the vestibule, but one of the stairs was removed in 2001 – Inside the vestibule were originally two (sets/flights of) stairs, though one was removed in the 2001 renovation.
  • Done. Epicgenius (talk) 17:55, 14 July 2024 (UTC)
• The synagogue's sanctuary was arranged in a similar manner to a Gothic church.[61][301] It is like Protestant churches in that the interior is divided into two aisles, which flank a central nave. – Think it's a bit odd to have these sentences side-by-side. So is the arrangement like a Gothic church or a Protestant church? Or both.
  • It's both – Gothic is an architectural style, while Protestantism is a branch of Christianity. However, I've removed "Protestant" as Catholic churches are like this as well. Epicgenius (talk) 17:55, 14 July 2024 (UTC)
• The nave and the aisles are separated by 12-by-12-inch (30 by 30 cm) square wooden piers – The nave and the aisles are separated by square wooden piers of 12 inch length
  • I went with a slightly different wording. Epicgenius (talk) 17:55, 14 July 2024 (UTC)
• west end or rear of the sanctuary. – I noted a similar phrase was stated earlier, and was about to ask: is the rear of the sanctuary its west end or two different places? Might say the rear of the sanctuary at its west end for its first mention and just opt for either term in subsequent mentions.
  • The rear of the sanctuary is indeed at its western end. Since this is mentioned above as well, I've rephrased this. Epicgenius (talk) 17:55, 14 July 2024 (UTC)
• but this was changed to 1,400 – but this was reduced...
  • Done. Epicgenius (talk) 17:55, 14 July 2024 (UTC)
• are positioned at a 45-degree angle, toward the center of the nave. – remove comma
  • Done. Epicgenius (talk) 17:55, 14 July 2024 (UTC)
• I wonder so far for the mention of stars, are they specifically of the Star of David or just general stars
  • The source doesn't specify, sadly. Epicgenius (talk) 17:55, 14 July 2024 (UTC)
• A writer for The Forward said the synagogue had "a similar architectural effect to Notre Dame in Paris. – I just want to muse the irony given the Notre Dame later burned down as well.
  • That is an interesting coincidence, I didn't notice that. Epicgenius (talk) 17:55, 14 July 2024 (UTC)

Clergy

• Wikilink Angela Buchdahl in the body. I don't think "since 2014" here is necessary though.
  • Done. Epicgenius (talk) 17:55, 14 July 2024 (UTC)
• The senior rabbis of Central Synagogue and its predecessors have included, in the order that they joined Central and its predecessor congregations: – This sentence wording is a bit odd in my opinion.
  • I've rephrased this. Epicgenius (talk) 17:55, 14 July 2024 (UTC)

Services and programs

• Does that Central Synagogue Brotherhood still exist? Cos saying "it was home" kind of implies it doesn't exist now, though you subsequently said "These programs have continued through the 21st century."
  • I don't think it exists anymore, but I can't really find any sourcing on this. The congregation, however, does still operate these programs. Epicgenius (talk) 17:55, 14 July 2024 (UTC)
• Wonder if there are images of the community houses.
  • I'd have to check, but I couldn't find any freely available images of the original community house. Epicgenius (talk) 17:55, 14 July 2024 (UTC)
• The collection includes a Torah from the Czech town of Lipnik, which was printed in the early 19th century and owned by the Memorial Scrolls Trust;[339] since 1967, the Torah has been loaned to Central. – A Torah from the Czech town of Lipnik, which was printed in the early 19th century and owned by the Memorial Scrolls Trust, was loaned to Central in 1967.
  • Done. Epicgenius (talk) 17:55, 14 July 2024 (UTC)
• or ancient musical horns – Don't think you need this part given the wikilink makes it clear a shofar is an ancient musical horn. Or maybe you might write "shofar musical horns"?
  • Done. Epicgenius (talk) 17:55, 14 July 2024 (UTC)

That's all for prose comments.--ZKang123 (talk) 10:14, 13 July 2024 (UTC)

Thanks for these comments. I'll address those on Monday. – Epicgenius (talk) 20:43, 13 July 2024 (UTC)

Thanks again for the review ZKang123. I think I've now addressed all of your comments. Epicgenius (talk) 17:55, 14 July 2024 (UTC)