Talk:Bugsy Siegel

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Last name was never Siegelbaum

His family's census records from 1910 list the family name as "Siegel," as corroborated by Larry Gragg's recent book. Benjamin Siegelbaum was an entirely different person who Meyer Lansky worked with in Miami in the 40's and 50's, after Bugsy's death. He is discussed in some detail by Lacey in Little Man, and presumably the insistence on "Siegelbaum" being Bugsy's last name comes from conflating the two figures, but the fact remains that it was never Bugsy's last name. The only things that claim it was are internet articles which cite other internet articles (or which cite no sources at all), and none can conclusively point to an original source for his last name originally being Siegelbaum. Crimsonrain158 (talk) 11:38, 19 August 2015 (UTC)

Actually, Crimsonrain158, it was his last name, several sources (including documentaries (with tons of experts), books, and websites) have stated it was his last name. Donovan Ellis (talk) 23:58, 22 August 2015 (UTC)

Donovan Ellis you have not provided any reliable sources that verify this. In the citation I provided—and that you deleted—Gragg cites a United State Census record from 1910, four years after Siegel was born, that lists his family's name as "Siegel." The citations listed on your edits to Siegel's last name include: a link to a youtube video (which has since been removed from youtube), an IMDB page and Find-A-Grave page (both of which are composed of user-generated content), and a PBS page which does not cite the information it contains to any verifiable source. No published historian has corroborated your claims. The contention that Siegel's last name was ever "Siegelbaum" (or that his middle name was "Hymen") is dubious at best, and the sites you have cited to back up your claim fall well within Wikipedia's definition of unreliable sources. --Crimsonrain158 (talk) 00:43, 23 August 2015 (UTC)

- Just wanted to help out here, Siegel is a variation of several Germanic surnames from Austria and surrounding areas such as the Siegelwachs. I was told Meyer's family were the Prussian side but they were closer to the Sharps line from Poland iirc. Also they were cousins to the Seagrim family, the liquor company, and it was where they got booze in from Canada during prohibition. That was through Rose Fuch, but she was a gossip so you never know, who set that up with the Purple from my understanding and was related to Harry (surname) who worked with Benjamin Siegel. Finally they may be related to the Weintraub family who were early Zionist that settled before it was the "State of" Israel and who became Israeli heroes for their acts. They have a monument outside the Jerusalem Municipal Court house and as an aside the entire family is close to the Bedouin family that helps the Kibbutz that makes the Judicah from Tree of Life; however they aren't related to anyone on that Kibbutz. Instead they started the Moshav that became the city of Ramat Gan and to this day there is an orange Grove with trees planted for the families of the originating members of the Moshav.

They changed the surname to Siegel at immigration because they spoke Yiddish and good old fashion bigotry. His Hebrew name was Hyman not Dov or whatever (trying to locate the Jewish News paper where he made a donation and they used that name, not sure where Dov comes from), but there has been a legitimate change to obfuscatile this much like Immigration changing the last name from Siegelbaum. They Yarzheit Plate matches a grave for someone who died twenty years later and was burried in NJ. It started about the same time as the vandalism regarding the last name did.

Anyway I don't think the actual Siegelbaums or any other branch of Siegels are the ones making these edits. At least not the Siegelbaum who used to live in LA. Benjamin's family did create immigration papers for refugees so they shared their name and history with a lot of people in order to save them from Hitler as well as just in general before then, that mixed with almost no documentation has caused this mess.

Here is the census but I think it is already in the original article showing they were Austrian not German and -Baum dis districtly the German not Austrian variation.

https://www.census.gov/history/pdf/bugsysiegel1920.pdf

You also may want to comb through the Jewish News in Phoenix and San Diego from when he was alive. Benjamin donated a lot and his family in Phoenix used to republish articles from the San Diego Jewish papers over there too. I don't think the Chicago branch did. Not really sure what went on between the Chicago side and the rest of the family they only made it to Passover once way back when.

I didn't want to make this more of a mess so I figured I'd post this as a talk and let Wiki-Admins sort it out. The documentation is out there but historians will need to now look past a layer of more recent, like a decade or so, of information to get back to something not fraudulent. Check publishing dates and copyrights on websites and you'll see what I mean. Most the stuff has been re-dated. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2603:7000:4600:358A:ED1C:F660:AB2:47CE (talk) 07:58, 19 May 2023 (UTC)

- Just an update, the death records linked to Max Siegel in the Wikipedia article has his birthdate as the 26th of Elul 5639 or 14th September 1879 but there was no one of that age in Castle Garden or Ellis Island record who mograted before the census dates/birthdate for Benjamin Siegel: https://heritage.statueofliberty.org/passenger-result - This is just a reiteration of how terrible records were and again the forced surname change made it harder. I found a migration certificate but it is behind a pay wall. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2603:7000:4600:358A:ED1C:F660:AB2:47CE (talk) 13:21, 19 May 2023 (UTC)

- Cleaned up Talk and found source on Siegelwach and Sigel surname alterations at immigration, still trying to locate Siegelbaum records from Austria. Contacted Austrian Rabbinate.

Ethnicity

I would like to verify that Siegel's ethnicity was Jewish and he was a Jewish American mobster which is proven and the fact that people are saying that being a Jew is not an ethnicity (when in fact its a ethnoreligious group). I'm just stating this in the talk page because recently two or three users are trying to say Jewish American is not needed in the opening paragraph and that being a Jew is not an ethnicity.--Donovan Ellis (talk) 03:09, 30 September 2015 (UTC)

I agree that Siegel was ethnically Jewish, and that the fact that he was a Jewish American mobster is relevant enough to his notability to be included in the opening paragraph under the MOS guidelines cited in the most recent removal of the term; his ethnicity is notable in that he was operating within the structure of the Mafia as a Jewish mobster, not an Italian one. If we're going to say Siegel's ethnicity isn't important enough to be mentioned in the opening paragraph, then "Sicilian-born", "Italian-American", and "Italian-born" aren't important enough to be included in the opening paragraphs of Luciano, Costello, and Genovese's respective articles either, and yet there's no debate on their respective pages about leaving those ethnic designations. Crimsonrain158 (talk) 07:34, 30 September 2015 (UTC)

And this whole Khazar thing and Siegel not being Jewish is stupid. Every historian, birth record, and every user that has editedthis page and other Jewish American and Italian American mobsters will agree that it is stupid too. Whoever this person is that is reverting it needs to stop. And this whole "worshiping-sicko/rapist" crap needs to stop, maybe you can make a time machine and recreate history to where SIegel was born during the Khazar's time, but until then stop.--Donovan Ellis (talk) 17:42, 30 September 2015 (UTC)

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Bug-eyed ?

• https://www.documentingreality.com/forum/attachments/f237/678470d1459598160-mobster-benjamin-bugsy-siegel-crime-scene-autopsy-photos-fro378fb0_profimedia_0014911218.jpg
• https://www.documentingreality.com/forum/attachments/f237/678471d1459598191-mobster-benjamin-bugsy-siegel-crime-scene-autopsy-photos-tumblr_n2uuay42ka1s7e5k5o1_500.jpg
• https://www.documentingreality.com/forum/attachments/f237/678472d1459598215-mobster-benjamin-bugsy-siegel-crime-scene-autopsy-photos-8016586771_c1bfc78632_z.jpg
• https://www.documentingreality.com/forum/attachments/f237/678473d1459598219-mobster-benjamin-bugsy-siegel-crime-scene-autopsy-photos-8016623283_65b5fe984d_z.jpg
• https://www.documentingreality.com/forum/attachments/f237/678474d1459598237-mobster-benjamin-bugsy-siegel-crime-scene-autopsy-photos-cf0f2a934c578780ba503b5623820416.jpg
• https://vignette.wikia.nocookie.net/unsolvedmysteries/images/7/74/Bugsy_siegel1.jpg
• http://cdn.history.com/sites/2/2016/02/GettyImages-97257720.jpg

64.175.40.235 (talk) —Preceding undated comment added 05:08, 8 January 2018 (UTC)

Once upon a Time in America

The movie Once upon a Time in America has a character named Bugsy. Is that character based on the subject of this article?50.43.163.127 (talk) 19:13, 11 December 2023 (UTC)

I’ve looked into this, and it seems very likely. I admit I never watched the movie, but here’s what I learned from a bit of research between this article and the movie’s article. (Spoiler below, of course.) Movie Bugsy is a Jewish gang boss who has young Jewish boys committing petty crimes for him on Manhattan’s Lower East Side; I’m not sure how old he’s supposed to be, but the actor was about 30 at the time. He dies in 1918 in the movie. The real man, who I’ll refer to as Siegel, was born in Brooklyn in 1906, and joined a gang on the Lower East Side in Manhattan as a boy. He committed petty crimes until he met Moe Segway and started an (extortion) protection racket for pushcart vendors. As a teenager, Siegel became instrumental in what became known as the Bugs and Meyer Mob; From there, the Mob expanded, grew in influence, and Siegel’s criminal career expanded outside of New York. I think it’s pretty safe to say that, between misunderstandings and generalizations surrounding his early life, and alterations to fit the plot, our Movie Bugsy might be the same as Siegel - in a world where his gang is not so successful, and he’s killed by a young boy.

I’ll add the reference in the “Media Portrayals” section, but I’ll be careful about the wording. I’d like it best if someone who watched the movie could comment on this. 8"mrk"7 (talk) 16:02, 27 December 2023 (UTC)